The Futility of a One-way Conversation

[wildsoul]

I don't know why I called him exactly, but I did. My loose plan was to continue ignoring him and let him twist in the wind wondering when I'd call. (A mild form of revenge, though it was also genuinely because I've been repulsed by him.) Eh. But I was downloading a bunch of photos off my camera and it made me want to call him. Not to get back together. Maybe I was hoping for some small voice of caring or remorse. My true expectations were that he'd be a jerk, and I called him anyways and was confirmed.

 

BTW, I've been reading up on narcissm some more. Not trying to diagnose him here, but I do think he has a lot of those traits. MUCH of the obvious things he does when fighting fit in with what I've read, but also the more passive agressive things that he's started doing lately. All these invalidations that I've noticed, but managed to choke down. A part of me was wanting to talk to him just to have a chance to observe again.

 

For those who like the bottom-line first: The call was calm yet tense, with him blaming me for everything wrong in our R. Spoiled "me, me, me" stuff throughout. Neither one of us wants to reconcile.

 

For those who like the details, here's a recap:

• He briefly asked me how I was tonight. I briefly said "fine." Then he tells me about him (and him, and him, and him.)
  
• He said that he was up at his former home, as his W is out of town and they agreed he'd stay there without her.He says he spent T-day alone, since he'd already cancelled on her family so he could be with me. He'd never spent a T-day alone (guilt inducement detected.)
  
• He said he is just spending time alone and that is the best thing for him (pouty voice detected.)
  

We somehow got into discussing the big fight, though it wasn't really my intention. I already knew he was going to blame me, and of course he did:

• He was upset that I caused a fight after he'd said he would spend T-day with me.
  
• He couldn't believe how I wasn't understanding when he came over last Friday, exhausted after a long week. He didn't have anything to give, yet I was telling him "We need to reconnect." (I did tell him that.) He said, "How can I expect him to have to fix things between us all the time?" (indignant poor me voice)
  
• I reminded him that we DID need to reconnect, as we hadn't seen each other since the prior Sunday when he went up to see his W for the T-day talk. YES I felt insecure as it was unclear if he was choosing her or me. Then that talk turned into 3 days with her, and not so much as a call or text message to me during that time.
  
• Then he invalidates me again, saying that he was in HELL for 3 days. One night, he didn't even get his dinner because they had to have a difficult conversation! (I swear, he said that. ) I should know by now that he is committed to me. I'm just causing trouble and drama because I have mood swings.
  
• Then he brought up our big fight night, which started when I was getting overwhelmed/cranky cooking dinner. He said, "You started that fight the other night with your bad moods! You don't know what it's like to be around you. I don't like that about you! You're crazy."
  
• I said, "My mood swings? You're the one that went WWIII. I was just a little frustrated. You started raging, not me."
  
• Then he accuses, "YOU said a lot of mean things to me that I can't forget! You said I was a 'taker'!" *exhales* Okay people, let me tell you what actually happened. He was raging at me that night and screamed, "You're a taker! All you do is take, take, take!" In the original fight, I was stunned because it's not true but more so because it was a spectacular display of projection. I'd just been thinking how he'd been so demanding lately, telling me to do this and that for him--taking. So also in that fight, I said, "Me? I don't think I'm taking more from you than is right. I think it's the other way 'round." So WTF? Tonight, his big blame from tonight is that I hurt HIM by calling him a taker. *smacks self in head* I think this is a perfect example of narcissitic projection. Crazy-making!
  
• Anyways, he said a whole bunch of other blaming things about how everything is my fault. I'm crazy. He's been totally committed to me. He even picked me up at the airport and I accused him of having another woman over (which is true, I was worried about that.) But then he says that I've accused him of cheating 10-12 times by now (NOT true!) and he's sick of my craziness and moods.
  
• After a couple self-affirming comments such as "Yes, I have moods. I'm senstive and like that about myself. I just find that you don't know how to feel safe whenever I have a mood you don't like, so you rage and otherwise overreact and try to squash it down. I try telling you what I need, which is usally just a hug or small reassurance, but you seldom want to do that. Your way of fighting me is the opposite of what I need." (Pearls before swine, as you know, but I needed to speak my truth.)
  
• More accusations on his part about how I'm crazy, no man would ever be able to put up with me, we aren't compatible, he just wants to get away from me and be alone, etc. At that point, I just started yes-ing him to throw him off. "Yes, we aren't compatible." "Yes, you should spend some time alone."
  

I ended it with telling him that I need him to return some bedding I loaned him this week, because I'm having houseguests next weekend. This also implied that he was uninvited now. I honestly don't know if he thought he was still invited or not, but in any case he said "I'll have them shipped to you or have someone (Hunh?) bring them to you." So it's clear he doesn't want to see me, but that's good cuz I don't want to see him either.

 

I've made a lot of mistakes along the way. One thing that really had (fading fast into past tense!) me hooked is trying to hold on to the "good times." I dearly loved the affection/romance/sex/companionship we had. This guy poured the verbal praise onto me (and vice versa) to the point that it was a red flag in the beginning. I felt like he was trying to sell me on him, yanno? But soon, it felt so good to my bones. I was head over heels in love with him. I bought into it enough to (sort of) overlook his marital status and other transgressions.

 

But recently (starting that night when we fought over him dressed inappropriately for a date) something has really turned a corner. He's been progressively acting more passive agressively, and both that fight and this one included verbal abuse. Some of the spectacularly awful things he said have taken precedence in my mind, but in reading up on narcissitic verbal abuse over the last few days, I can recount a bunch of more covert verbal abuse examples. Honestly, I didn't want to see those. But I have started noticing that "gas lighting" effect of him blaming ME and actually starting to find myself confused. As we discussed in another thread, that crap is the scariest of all. I know what happens next. Typically, the abuse gets worse and one's self-esteem drops, then leaving is even harder.

 

FWIW, the articles I was reading did say that it's VERY much the pattern that these types of narcisists usually team up with codependents like me. It's a hand-in-glove fit, because they work like hell to get past our trust issues and sweep us off our feet. In return, we gladly give/heal/nurture them! They primed us to be a custom-made source of ego food. Once our boundaries kick in (and they will) we get angry (which is healthy) and assert ourselves (not usually in a healthy way.) So then the controlling narcissist will go into a RAGE so bad that we're badly wounded, and they spin it around telling us we are the abuser, not them. The articles say that sometimes it's months before the rageful and overtly abusive side is revealed, but once it does (and it will) that it's something near impossible to stop. Prognosis = failure.

 

I feel really nauseaus right now.

 

It's one thing to offhandedly say, "Good riddance to bad rubbish, that guy is abusive," but it's still another to really accept this. I really do think I'm on my way out now, but part of me (denial) still wants to take his bait, thinking, "Maybe I AM crazy," "Maybe I'm the abuser," "Maybe I make good men turn bad," Ugh. *sobs*

[sadintexas]

I'm sorry you're going through this, but count your lucky stars that you are seeing this side of him NOW instead of later. You're already questioning yourself, i.e. am I the crazy one? If you go down that road, it will only get worse. You will totally lose any sense of self, you will begin to take blame for everything, and you will lose the strength that you have right now.

 

I was married to an NPD and I wasted 10 years of my life. Those years weren't just a waste, it was torture so often. Recovering from that has not been easy. I honestly would not wish my xH on my worst enemy.

 

Just reading your post, him calling you crazy, the projection, raging, etc., hit home for me. All the same stuff my xH used to do. Over time, that really begins to take its toll on you. It will reduce you to absolute nothingness if you let it go too far. They are emotional vampires who will suck the life blood out of you. I'm not kidding, and I'm not exaggerating.

 

Trust what you know, what you read that rings true, and get away from him. NOTHING GOOD is going to come from this relationship.

[wildsoul]

I was married to an NPD and I wasted 10 years of my life. Those years weren't just a waste, it was torture so often. Recovering from that has not been easy. I honestly would not wish my xH on my worst enemy.

Thank you for your support.

 

I'm sorry you endured that! Can I ask you some questions about it? Answer only what feels right.

 

Did you have a former history of abuse?

One of the reasons I ask is founded in this self-judgment I'm having that I should have known better. You see, I grew up w/ horrible abuse, and although some of what I'm learning now is new to me, I feel like a failure for getting caught up in this. Ugh.

 

How long into your R with your x did it take before you started noticing the overt stuff?

Again, maybe it's because I feel stupid for getting involved. There were early problems and red flags, but the first (of 3) rage attacks didn't happen until we were together 7 months.

 

How did you shake the worry that it IS your fault somehow?

I'm getting caught up in feeling that not only can it be fixed, but that maybe he's only crazy because I'm doing something to make him be that way. Logically, I can read how the name of this game is blame the victim, yet I feel somehow guilty/responsible--afterall, I've had a lot of abuse in my history, so maybe I'm the messed up one. HE had a 16 year marriage, not me. (My negative self-talk.)

 

I'll take any insights you can give me on this! It's so hard to go from all of his constant putting me on a pedastal to now being the source of all problems! Confusing, as well as the pain and loss of not having the love and affection I was now used to. I've got a bit of an spiritual anchor, but much of me is lost at sea right now.

[pelicanpreacher]

Read this and get back with me....

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1681788&postcount=86

[wildsoul]

Read this and get back with me....

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1681788&postcount=86

Thanks. I can bits of him in all of those classes.

 

The common denominators all 3 Classes share is selfishness and a loyalty directed primarily unto themselves. Although each will verbally espouse love to the women in their lives, they all use charm, adopted through a close relationships with their mothers, to ply women women with a false sense of emotional connection they may be vulnerable to in order to secure money, adoration, or both.

 

I don't know all his family of origin stuff, but he doesn't describe it as abusive. Yet it sounds like his dad was very critical and emotionally unavailable. He has strong feelings of love for his deceased mom, who I suspect (strong intuition) overcompensated for dad. Also, my guy was the oldest, so he was validated for being the topdog/leader of the younger boys. So my summary would be: emotionally criticized/abandoned by dad, pampered by mom, then validated socially when he acted "strong," not emotionally vulnerable.

 

BTW, I also have a hunch that perhaps he also worked hard to compensate for what his mom wasn't getting in her M. On the one hand, he totally knows how to charm/give a woman validation (wow, he really made me feel special!) but then has a lurking fear of emmeshment. In other words, he doggedly courts validation and praise, yet any sign of neediness freaks him out!

 

The thing with me is that I am naturally a healer by nature. I love love love to be sensuous/sexual, cook, massage, pamper, and share the sensory pleasures of life with my man. When it's all give and take (which it WAS) it's great. He really validated me there. Maybe that's where he also got hooked. But then it turned into this entitlement thing. Then a controlling thing. Now a punishment thing. Ick.

 

How did you come up with all that narcisist stuff? Sounds like you went to the school of hard knocks!

[pelicanpreacher]

LOL! I think you've got me pegged!

[pelicanpreacher]

Actually, it's probably more like Dad's hard stance may have been incited by the overindulgence of his Mom to keep the growing narcissism induced by her in him checked! That's the way most Fathers typically react when the Mom's pampered favorite son tends to get too big for his britches!

 

By the way, do you know any of his brothers and what their tendencies are?

[wildsoul]

Actually, it's probably more like Dad's hard stance may have been incited by the overindulgence of his Mom to keep the growing narcissism induced by her in him checked! That's the way most Fathers typically react when the Mom's pampered favorite son tends to get too big for his britches!

 

By the way, do you know any of his brothers and what their tendencies are?

Dunno for sure about dad, but in any case, he's not a source of good ego food, so MM avoids his dad like the plague.

 

Haven't met the numerous brothers. They are scattered around the country. Oh, but MM doesn't spend a lot of time talking about them--only if they are in a story about him.

[pelicanpreacher]

Of course he avoids his Dad like the plague. I'll bet if you tipped his Dad off about what his son's been up to your MM would be hiding out in China by now! The fact is that his Dad brooks no nonsense and would call your MM out on the carpet quick fast and in a hurry if he found out. You see, no matter how big he gets for his britches, he'll never be able to stand up to his father when he knows he's in the wrong!

[2sunny]

i don't think you are in denial - i believe the correct word may be delusional...

 

there is a difference. let me know what you think...

 

de·ni·al (d-nl)

n.

1. A refusal to comply with or satisfy a request.

2.

a. A refusal to grant the truth of a statement or allegation; a contradiction.

b. Law The opposing by a defendant of an allegation of the plaintiff.

3.

a. A refusal to accept or believe something, such as a doctrine or belief.

b. Psychology An unconscious defense mechanism characterized by refusal to acknowledge painful realities, thoughts, or feelings.

4. The act of disowning or disavowing; repudiation.

5. Abstinence; self-denial.

 

 

delusion

Noun

1. a mistaken idea or belief

2. the state of being deluded

delusive adj

delusory adj

 

de·lu·sion (d-lzhn)

n.

1.

a. The act or process of deluding.

b. The state of being deluded.

2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.

3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

[pelicanpreacher]

At this point I neither see denial nor delusion. I see introspection by a very analytical mind. I'm confused about the impetus of your determinations?!

[2sunny]

just asking her to reconsider the use of the word denial at the end of her post. only because this doesn't look like denial to me... which is a good thing.

[wildsoul]

i don't think you are in denial - i believe the correct word may be delusional...

 

there is a difference. let me know what you think...

 

de·ni·al (d-nl)

b. Psychology An unconscious defense mechanism characterized by refusal to acknowledge painful realities, thoughts, or feelings.

 

delusion

Noun

3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

So um, since we're talking about my psychological wiring here, then only the psych definitions apply. So are you suggesting I'm mentally ill, rather than unconsciously wanting to avoid the painful realities?

 

When I originally used it, I was observing that I have a fear that my R will end and I'll be in pain. So brushing a few things aside, that hurt or bothered me when he said them, but not wanting to believe they could really be so serious (because then I'd have to consider ending the R.)

[2sunny]

So um, since we're talking about my psychological wiring here, then only the psych definitions apply. So are you suggesting I'm mentally ill, rather than unconsciously wanting to avoid the painful realities?

 

When I originally used it, I was observing that I have a fear that my R will end and I'll be in pain. So brushing a few things aside, not wanting to believe they could really be so serious.

 

no i wasn't referring to your psychological wiring. i was referring to your view of the relationship from your perspective.

 

• A mistaken idea or belief
  
• A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand
  

 

these two seem to apply to what was going on more than anything, so i don't think you are in denial.

 

you misjudged his character and/or intentions because he was good at what he naturally does. when you didn't follow according to his plan, he got angry so you would fall back into line the way he wanted you to.

 

no need to think you are mentally ill at all - you are a bright gal. he was just a selfish and manipulative man.

 

even now, i'm sure the load of crap that he fed you on the phone is a lie too. he could be at the apartment alone as well as he could be at her house... but nooo, he had to tell you he's at her house alone... ya, right. this has been the reason he hasn't called you - his wife is there just like last time he stayed there... he can't talk. he had the obligation of T-day to her and couldn't get out of it. so then he picks a huge fight so he can be with her and blame the fight on you.

 

expect him to come begging in about a month. he will.

 

don't beat yourself up so much. men like this are amazingly convincing. he probably did want to see if he could make it work with you... somewhere along the line his W made more demands than he figured and he got frustrated and took it out on you. when he chose not to tell you the truth is when he got tripped up. then he just tried to make everything your fault so he didn't have to feel so guilty.

 

that is where the delusional part comes in... nothing against your mental state at all... he just gave convincing evidence that was misleading in the end. not your fault at all. he's just a dork.

[wildsoul]

Gotcha 2sunny. Thanks for clarifying.

 

Meh. I don't know if he was lying per se. I think he did mean to spend T-day with me.

 

But I think the set up was that he had an overblown sense of entitlement because of it. He expected me to completely cater/defer to him after the big sacrifice he made for me. (How dare I ask him for emotional reconnection?!) He had zero empathy for how his actions made me feel. It was me who owed him 100% care. Then I also think he was passive agressively testing me.

 

Not to jump too much on the narcisstic pop-psych bandwagon, but I think he has those traits (high functionining or tendencies, not the most extreme.) But if we add the theory about narcisstic supply (I like to call it "ego food") into the mix, then you can see what kind of pressure he was under:

• Although he wants a D, his W (who still wants him) is a source of ego food.
  
• Her family (based on what he tells me) is a HUGE source of ego food.
  
• I'm also a big source of ego food (and my friends/family too, but not guaranteed yet.)
  

As I've been insisting that he stop cake-eating (e.g. move out, spend holidays, etc.) in order to date me, then he's been backed against the wall. So he was angry, testing, and extorting care from me. And in a self-defeating prophecy, because he was being such a dork (as you say) he ended up blowing our R up.

 

Another mistake I noticed btw is this:

I thought his express of praise and sentimentalism towards me was his feelings of love. To a large extent that was true. However, there were 2 things that I noticed all along, but didn't see as big problems (yet)

1. Much of his validation for "me" was really about "us" or him. He'd say things that were sweet, but also ego-centric such as "We're the most perfect couple," "We have the best sex," etc. Also, much of his future talk included his fantasies of getting validated by my career goals, riding on my fame so to speak.
   
2. To directly ask for emotional support was like pulling teeth. He gave me oodles of praise & vows of devotion when he wanted to feel good (about us/him) but that's different than being able to say "I'm sorry," or to comfort me when I was sad or upset (too much about me.)
   

So it was really murky! I did get to experience a lot of postive feelings. But all the romance in the world doesn't make up for a lack of conflict resolution & empathy skills.

[frannie]

WS I'm so glad you finally read up on the verbal abuse and PA behaviour he's been exhibiting for so long. The thing is it's really no use engaging them because you're never going to be fighting on a level ground. And the more you do engage them, the crazier you feel, the more they lead you to believe that it's your fault, and you're the one with the problem. In the end you find yourself confused, exhausted, and beaten into the ground, which is exactly where they want you to be.

 

My first step to sanity after my ex was finding websites on Narcisissm and verbal abuse. The flags are pretty plain once you know what to look for. The sad thing is that we might love these people (or the people they pretend to be at the beginning), but there's nothing we can do to 'help' them, only ourselves.

 

And in that regard, you might look up 'Narcissistic supply' if you haven't already... Because the next thing is, that when they realise you're pulling away, they start trying to reel you back in...

[wildsoul]

The thing is it's really no use engaging them because you're never going to be fighting on a level ground. And the more you do engage them, the crazier you feel, the more they lead you to believe that it's your fault, and you're the one with the problem. In the end you find yourself confused, exhausted, and beaten into the ground, which is exactly where they want you to be.

Thanks, frannie!

 

Overwhelmingly, everything I've read so far (by psychologists, lay people, and narcissicists in recovery too) say that only thing to do is leave them. Being a "let's fix this thing," kind of woman, I was a little shocked. The only examples I read where they were giving advice on how to stay in the R and deal is in the case of when it's a parent, child, or you are simply unable to leave yet for $ reasons. In those cases, they tell you how to be the ultimated subservient to them and/or fight at their level when they rage. Wow. No thanks!

 

I'm turning the corner now. Last night's chat with him actually helped because I was observing so closely. I've shoring up my decision to leave him. It's a process, as I notice my heart needing to catch up with my head.

 

Before, I was still making ALL the justifications that OW make: He really seems to be The One for me; He must love me deeply because he's already planned our future; We get along SO well; I've never had such great chemistry; He's really there for me at a hard time in my life; Maybe it's just a case of bad-timing. For all of these reasons, I was willing to date a still married man.

 

Now, I'm seeing all those things crumble away. The idea of tolerating the escalating levels of control AND he's still married? Madness! It sounds twisted, but I'm glad that he wasn't single and we aren't already engaged by now. In moments like this, I'm glad for the good times we had in the last 10-mos and relieved at the thought of getting out now. I can still keep the good things I experienced. This is the perfect time to let go.

[OWoman]

wow - these narcissism links so describe MM's BW to a T!

 

WS - the good stuff feels good while it lasts, but the bad stuff feels bad long after it's over. If the price is too high, shop elsewhere. It sounds as if you're investing a lot, for a not so great return. That's not long-term sustainable.

 

You're the one you need to be looking out for here - you the person, not you the couple.

[2sunny]

ws-

 

the thing about my xH is that when things were good they were amazing. when things were bad they were more than horrific. and he put the blame of his bad behavior on anyone but himself.

 

also, we had AMAZING chemistry and sex. even after being married almost 20 years. so i was basically willing to give up my sanity and happiness for chemistry and sex with a man. the controlling behaviors he practiced with precision every day were unbelievably over the top(don't even get me started). i was willing to go along with all the bad for a few areas that were keeping me in that "delusional" state of what our marriage was. it appeared beautiful and perfect on the outside... but it was very dark and scary for what he continued to do to the inside of our "happy" marriage.

 

when i look at the reality i wonder why i couldn't see it for what it was all those years - oh yah, he was covering up the ugly part with all the "perks" so that i wouldn't leave.

 

so, sometimes what we recognize as amazing is our biggest downfall because we fail to see the obvious pitfalls which are so glaring. we are fooled in a big way and it hurts.

 

this is not your fault. YOU aren't the one married and you asked for reasonable requirements for this to be a healthy start to a relationship. he wasn't capable for his own reasons (to which you may never know the truth about).

 

let it go now. find time to be happy on your own. don't let him ruin another day of wondering "what if" because he just doesn't have the capacity to participate in a healthy relationship.

 

i'd be willing to bet money that HE is the root of the trouble in their marriage. i'm certain he exerts the same selfish nature with the W and his sense of entitlement while being emotionally bankrupt in the marriage is what is lacking for her too. you can't teach a person how to have compassion at that age... you either have it or you don't. the fact that he tends to come around after the dust he kicked up settles is definitely a tool he carried through his marriage. when he pissed her off in the past ten months - he probably ran to you for his big ego feed. when you two fought i'm sure he ran to her for his little retreat from you.

 

this is not what love looks like. this is a selfish man that has learned a higher form of manipulation .

 

i'm sure if we go back to the beginning and follow his "actions" more closely instead of his words - we could see more than what was being admitted at the time. he gave you info to keep you involved... i'm sure it wasn't anywhere near the truth.

[wildsoul]

also, we had AMAZING chemistry and sex. even after being married almost 20 years. so i was basically willing to give up my sanity and happiness for chemistry and sex with a man. the controlling behaviors he practiced with precision every day were unbelievably over the top(don't even get me started). i was willing to go along with all the bad for a few areas that were keeping me in that "delusional" state of what our marriage was. it appeared beautiful and perfect on the outside... but it was very dark and scary for what he continued to do to the inside of our "happy" marriage.

 

when i look at the reality i wonder why i couldn't see it for what it was all those years - oh yah, he was covering up the ugly part with all the "perks" so that i wouldn't leave.

 

so, sometimes what we recognize as amazing is our biggest downfall because we fail to see the obvious pitfalls which are so glaring. we are fooled in a big way and it hurts.

(((hugs & gratitude)))

 

Thanks for your honesty. I can totally see how my R with him would end up like yours did. It's already revealing itself.

 

And yes, I understand how the sexual chemistry is a big lure. It's refreshing to hear you say it, as so many women prefer to downplay sex as if it's low priority. MM and I have that pheromone/biochemical powered sex. It's not even technique so much as this energy between us. We were both in awe of it. (Someone told me that it's literally a biochemical matching, sourced in dna and baby-making drives.) I've had that level of chemistry before, in a mostly healthy 7 year R, but it's so rare. Many people I know have never experienced it. So coming out of a sexless M (where I wasn't very attracted to my xH) followed by a year of not dating, then hitting the chemistry jackpot was very profound.

 

I was both disappointed and relieved to notice that when he started toggling on his promise of spending the holidays, especially when he spent those days with his W and didn't contact me, that my sexual interest in him went way down. Then since last week's rager, I've lost trust in him. My fear increased enough to shut down my sex drive right now.

 

You're totally right about the perks seeming to compensate for the pitfalls. And OWoman is also right about how the bad stuff feels bad for longer. It's a bad bargain. Good while it lasted, but I think his expiration date just passed. The cream's gone sour!

[sadintexas]

Did you have a former history of abuse?

One of the reasons I ask is founded in this self-judgment I'm having that I should have known better. You see, I grew up w/ horrible abuse, and although some of what I'm learning now is new to me, I feel like a failure for getting caught up in this. Ugh.

 

I had FOO issues that I hadn't addressed at that time, and didn't really realize was abuse at the time. So, I didn't recognize the patterns of abuse so easily, yet it made it easier for him to target me because my self esteem was damaged inside. I was strong in most situations, but he could trigger the same things my mother did when I was growing up which just made it so easy for him to control me and make me believe I was the crazy one.

 

I don't think it's a matter of you should have known better. You'll need to do some healing in this area, and the NPD survivor message boards is one of the best ways to learn and heal and see how you got where you are.

 

How long into your R with your x did it take before you started noticing the overt stuff?

Again, maybe it's because I feel stupid for getting involved. There were early problems and red flags, but the first (of 3) rage attacks didn't happen until we were together 7 months.

 

There were red flags from the beginning that I recognize now. There were some then (3 months into it) that I knew was odd behavior, but I excused it. He hooked me with sympathy and I felt I could help him through his issues so I tolerated more than I think I normally would have. Couple that with my underlying self esteem issues and childhood issues, and it was a recipe for disaster.

 

How did you shake the worry that it IS your fault somehow?

I'm getting caught up in feeling that not only can it be fixed, but that maybe he's only crazy because I'm doing something to make him be that way. Logically, I can read how the name of this game is blame the victim, yet I feel somehow guilty/responsible--afterall, I've had a lot of abuse in my history, so maybe I'm the messed up one. HE had a 16 year marriage, not me. (My negative self-talk.).

 

That's a hard one because I totally know where you're coming from. It took me coming out the other side to see it clearly. I hope that you learning this early will save you the same kind of pain that I went through.

 

It's easy now, in relationships I've had with other men, and friends, etc to see how "normal" dynamics work. It's also interesting to see how I am able to stand by my boundaries and not let the same thing happen again. I also have tools now I didn't have then i.e. an understanding of my childhood, and how personal issues otherwise affected me and my behavior. You're probably not totally innocent in this. We do react to triggers. We do behave badly sometimes. What you'll see though (hopefully sooner than later) is that he is fundamentally broken and no matter what your behavior is, this is what you're going to get from him. If he is NPD, the chances of him ever recognizing that and getting help is slim to none. You will only spiral downwards with this man. With your history of abuse, you are a prime candidate to go down this road with him. TRUST ME when I tell you that you don't want to do that.

 

You can PM me and I'll be happy to talk to you about this in detail.

 

I can totally relate to where you are and how much you want to fix this. You just have to trust that you can't fix him. Yes, he's been in a marriage for 16 years. My xH was in a marriage with me for 10 years. That doesn't make him marriage material, or even fit to interact with humans . It just means that I didn't get off my duff earlier to make the hard choices.

[Shannon2008]

Do your heart a favor and leave him. He exhibits most of the traits of a narcissist...in fact, I'd wager a large sum of money that most MM's in affairs are narcissists....Mine certainly was. I recall whenever I got clingy, or "on the begging end", he'd pull away...but whenever I got fed up, he kissed my arse....

They do/say what is necessary to win you over..but once that's achieved, they turn on you faster than rabbid dogs, leaving you dumbfounded and confused...

Please, listen to the ladies here...we have been through it, and survived it. It's hardest in the beginning,,,but it does get easier with time.

 

Also, please do not do what I did..and reconcile a few years later...it was the biggest mistake of my life...He still tries to re-ignite my feelings..and was successful. I've been depressed since we reconnected a few weeks ago(for the third time). I vowed to go NC and have been for a week..It is getting better. I promised myself to start the New Year vowing to never let him get through to me again. You should consider doing the same.

 

I've followed your story from the beginning and our relationship similarities are many. Start the new year off without him and on the path to healing and recovery..

 

Best Wishes to you.

[Marteka]

Then he brought up our big fight night, which started when I was getting overwhelmed/cranky cooking dinner. He said, "You started that fight the other night with your bad moods! You don't know what it's like to be around you. I don't like that about you! You're crazy."

 

Oh no! There is no doubt in my mind that you've hooked up with a narcissist. In fact, reading your post takes me back to my 8 year relationship with a narcissist, who not only cheated on me but convinced me that his philandering pleasure was a key ingredient of our sex life (please, yes, I know, that's just plain dumb...I have no defence to plead but gullibility). Only after some really insane moments between us did he agree to leave off, and then he just took it underground. Just like your MM, he had me thinking I was the crazy one...!

 

wildsoul, I really feel for you. I know what you mean by the co-dependent fitting with the abuser...all your life you've probably been trying to be the extra rational, insightful, supportive, helpful one, then somebody comes along who sniffs that out like a shark sensing blood. He sweeps you off your feet, you think it's the truest bliss you ever knew and then he messes with you so, so bad!

 

Please don't hate yourself (perhaps you don't, but I did). Please don't stop reaching out to people. One thing I did which really did not help was to clam up and shut out my loved ones. This guy had me believing that I could trust no-one and no-one understood but him. The one I really could not trust was him.

 

All my support and best wishes to you...

[jj33]

Im glad you called him. It allows you to put closure on it rather than wondering when he might call.

 

Dont beat yourself up about this one. You are by nature open and give people the benefit of the doubt. There was a lot of good so you continued to keep the door open. You did what felt right at the time. Now the door is closed.

 

I have been similar in the past and I know in the future I will not be so open minded when people display questionable behavior. Everyone has baggage and a history and issues to contend with, but noone is perfect. And its easy to rationalize behavior particularly when someone is going through a separation or divorce.

 

But now you know this is more than situational. Hes a very emotionally challenged man. And now you know he was your transitional man. So you got a lot of good information out of it.

 

Hang in there. The anger and clouds will pass. You sound like you are handling it all

really well.

 

Big hugs

[OWoman]

in fact, I'd wager a large sum of money that most MM's in affairs are narcissists....

 

mine was a classic "co-narcissist" - the kind of victim narcissists seek out. I was dumbstruck the way his kneejerk response to any sense of disagreement or unhappiness - however slight or incidental - would be to fall over himself apologising and taking the blame and trying to fix things up as if HE was responsible! If there was a traffic jam, he'd apologise - or if the coffee at the restaurant wasn't hot enough! The most riddiculous things... He's a lot better on that now - the word "sorry" has been banned from his vocabulary - though he still has a difficult time putting his own needs first - or even on the agenda at all - when it comes to choices or decisions. Narcissists really are toxic people and I will never forgive his BW for the way she messed up not only a fine man but also her kids, who do classic "walking on eggshells" behaviour as a result of her treatment of them.

 

WS, count your blessings. You could have found yourself in a decade and a half having to drive kids around to therapy every day because of the impact of their father's disorder on them!