RobertLS Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 There was a conversation on this thread http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=170081&page=2 where Owl and Misternoname were discussing differences between an EA and a PA. They seemed to agree that the case of an internet affar involving webcams would be considered a PA, not an EA, even if the two parties had never met in person. Got me wondering what others think. If a married person and an OW/OM engage in mutual masturbation with webcams, does that constitute a PA even though there's no physical contact? I've always believed that a PA, by definition, had to involve actual physical contact, but after reading what Owl and Misternonname wrote, I'm not so sure it's as black and white as that. What do YOU think?
Geishawhelk Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 My personal opinion is that, anything that takes you outside of the boundaries of your marriage, and that you would do without your spouse knowing - that is, in secret and behind their back - is infidelity.
grogster Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 Cam sex, like phone sex, is a PA. When you get off with someone it's a physical affair. Touching (physical contact) is not the touchstone of a PA. Rather, it's any type of shared sexual communion that leads to mutual erotic pleasure--regardless of physical proximity (or lack thereof). For a PA, it's all about the sex.
jwi71 Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 I would have to agree with you Robert. A PA is actual physical sexual contact between parties. In all honesty, those involved in an EA will masturbate about the other anyway. The webcam simply offers a visual. Would it be an PA if they have an IM "sex chat"? Would it be a PA if they met for lunch and had some salacious talk? Would it be a PA if they send racy text messages to each other? No to all above I think. The webcam adds a visual element - but that's it. Still an EA in my mind.
travelgirl Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 My personal opinion is that, anything that takes you outside of the boundaries of your marriage, and that you would do without your spouse knowing - that is, in secret and behind their back - is infidelity. I agree with this. Being the one involved in the EA that sparked the debate I can tell you it doesn't matter to me. I am treating it like cheating, treating it like infidelity, treating it like it was THE WORST thing you could possibly do to our marriage. The ONLY reason why a PA would be worse is that there would have been a chance he could have given me an STD or have gotten her pregnant. Intercourse doesn't bother me as much as the feelings and secrecy. Heck, I would have been able to get over a one night stand easier then this EA. The point is, there was someone else. Like another poster said - I am sure all of those EA's were thought about in some form of sexual way and the continued lying and hiding IS cheating. At first, I thought "thank goodness they didn't have sex" but after hearing all about the EA, the feelings, the thoughts, the wants etc.... I think it was actually worse. I remember a post on here where someone said NOT having sex with the EA made it worse for the WS to get over them. So many feelings but things never went all the way that the OW/OM was still a perfect fantasy - because in your mind it was a perfect "relationship" compared to your very real "bland" marriage.
Owl Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 In truth, I don't think it matters a great deal if you call it an EA, a PA, or garbanzo beans. When it comes down to it, the steps for recovery remain pretty much the same. And whether or not it's "considered" an EA vs PA is only relevent in the mind of the BS who's trying to clean up the aftermath. The other real problem is that when you start to try to define the labels, you'll start trying to determine which one is "worse"...and again, that only matters in the mind of the person who's trying to deal with the situation. I think I'll just start calling all affairs "garbanzo beans", and be done with it.
misternoname Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 Seeing I was brought up in this post I'll restate my take on the whole EA debate. In my humble opinion, 90% of EA's are probably really full blown affairs. Let's face it folks...heterosexual men are not interested in simply having a female buddy. I think a lot of folks declare they had an EA as a means of fessing up, getting it off their chest, etc. I think it's a cop out attempt to rid their guilty conscious. My wife had several affairs. Each and every time she admitted to just talking, being friends, texting but never admitted to sleeping with them until I discovered the truth on my own. One guy, who was a good friend of mine, bold faced lied in front of me and his wife. Said him and my wife were just good friends and confided in each other but it was never physical. I later busted into my wife's email and found one from him discussing how they needed to "stick to the story...they had us fooled", etc. As far as the cyber sex thing...I see no distinction. For those of you that think it's different ask yourself this simple question...If your significant other was on the internet enjoying mutual masturbation with some stranger, would you be perfectly fine with it? Didn't think so...i rest my case!
65tr6 Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 PA is ACTUAL physical contact. When you consumate together physically via sexual intercourse, it makes countless deposits in the love bank for both. Generally/logically follows EA.
2sure Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 The other real problem is that when you start to try to define the labels, you'll start trying to determine which one is "worse"...and again, that only matters in the mind of the person who's trying to deal with the situation As a BS, I do have a definition in my own mind of what I think my own marriage can recover from, what I can forgive - but specific circumstances and feelings come into play - so there are no clear "lines". When "definitions" become part of infidelity conversations in the form of defense or accusation, we come down to NEGOTIATIONS or like OWL said: what is worse. My husband originally thought he could negotiate his way out of the betrayal by using definitions, perspectives, etc. Didnt work. If your spouse says and feels it is infidelity, what type doesnt really matter.
Owl Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 PA is ACTUAL physical contact. When you consumate together physically via sexual intercourse, it makes countless deposits in the love bank for both. Generally/logically follows EA. Not always. Some affairs start out as PA's and lead to EA's. ("We weren't looking for an emotional connection, we just wanted to keep it physical, but then I began to develop feelings for him.") Some affairs start out as EA's and then flow into PA's. ("We'd been spending out lunch hours together, and I just "fell in love" with him. Then we went to his place one day after work and...") Again...what difference does it make, other than in the mind of the BS who's trying to decide to forgive or forget?
Holding-On Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 PA is ACTUAL physical contact. When you consumate together physically via sexual intercourse, it makes countless deposits in the love bank for both. Generally/logically follows EA. In my mind a PA is a situation of actual physical contact wherein a WS/BS might be exposed to physical germs and consequences (STDs, pregnancy). An EA is everything else that crosses the personal boundary of the marriage.
angie2443 Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 The other real problem is that when you start to try to define the labels, you'll start trying to determine which one is "worse"...and again, that only matters in the mind of the person who's trying to deal with the situation. I think I'll just start calling all affairs "garbanzo beans", and be done with it. I agree that often the purpose of defining the labels is to determine which one is worse. I remember driving myself crazy trying to understand why my husband's friendship was so hurtful to me when it didn't involve sex. For the record, I don't know for sure if there was no sex but my gut tells me there wasn't. I do think if the friendship continued, they would eventually have had sex. In the end, I think it is more helpful to look at what both the EAs and PAs have in common and understand how they harm marriages and long term relationships rather than try to figure out the differances.
Author RobertLS Posted November 26, 2008 Author Posted November 26, 2008 Thanks everyone for responding. Just a like a lot things, there are differences of opinion. The reason why I asked the question is because I've seen the terms PA and EA used extensively on this forum, and I used to think I had a clear understanding of the distinction between the two. I see now that it's not so clear cut, or like 2sure says, no clear lines. But it IS interesting to hear other viewpoints. A few reactions to some of the responses..... My personal opinion is that, anything that takes you outside of the boundaries of your marriage, and that you would do without your spouse knowing - that is, in secret and behind their back - is infidelity. Anything? That seems pretty broad. I mean, what if my wife considered it outside the bounds of our marriage for me to go bungee jumping, but I snuck away and did it without her knowing. Would that constitute infidelity? When it comes down to it, the steps for recovery remain pretty much the same. And whether or not it's "considered" an EA vs PA is only relevent in the mind of the BS who's trying to clean up the aftermath. I agree with you on the steps for recovery being roughly the same, but I think the distinction between EA and PA is relevant to more than just the BS. It's relevant to people who read this forum. Things can get a little touchy at times here, and I think having a clear understanding of some of the common terms can improve communication. The other real problem is that when you start to try to define the labels, you'll start trying to determine which one is "worse"...and again, that only matters in the mind of the person who's trying to deal with the situation. I think I'll just start calling all affairs "garbanzo beans", and be done with it. Agree with labels leading to which one is worse, but, .... garbanzo beans? Since affairs are bad, at least pick something nobody likes, like brussels sprouts or something As far as the cyber sex thing...I see no distinction. For those of you that think it's different ask yourself this simple question...If your significant other was on the internet enjoying mutual masturbation with some stranger, would you be perfectly fine with it? Didn't think so...i rest my case! I wouldn't know for sure unless it actually happened, but I think I'd rather have my wife do it on the internet w/ someone than to be in a real bed with them. I'm surprised you see no difference. ----------- Thanks again to everyone, and for those of you in the US, happy Thanksgiving!
Geishawhelk Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 Anything? That seems pretty broad. I mean, what if my wife considered it outside the bounds of our marriage for me to go bungee jumping, but I snuck away and did it without her knowing. Would that constitute infidelity? I thought you were referring to sexual matters, and that's what I was referring to also. However: If she was fearful of your bungee jumping, say, perhaps because she had an irrational fear or phobia of heights, and was terrified of the rope breaking, you sneaking away to do it without her knowing..... I wouldn't call it infidelity, but it would be callous and disrespectful. So I guess that covers it too. Wouldn't you agree? of course I 'm using a hypothetical argument. but I can't help thinkinking that maybe you're being deliberately a little obtuse here, huh?
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