How can I NOT be clingy with by WW ?

[reservoirdog1]

I can understand your points and the method - I just don't agree with it.

I know, and I appreciate you saying so. It's always nice to have a spirited disagreement on LS that doesn't descend into name calling or something.

 

But, I actually don't think our views are all that opposed (except in a few areas).

 

Its game playing when you suggest he withhold sex and masturbate. Its game playing when you say "don't initiate". Its a power play. Its manipulation, not healing. No two ways about it.

I agree that it resembles game playing, but I also think it's a necessary component of him becoming "less clingy". In that, I read that she wants him to seem less emotionally dependent on her. Continuing to be that way will not increase her attraction to him. Clinginess never produces attraction -- quite the opposite.

 

Except a marriage is two people. Yes, 65tr6 needs to change. But his W needs to change more. What you are suggesting is that the OP is responsible for the A. That he is boring, clingy, predictable, etc and thus by changing himself he repairs the M. NOT TRUE. HE changes himself but not the issues in HER. And she is the problem, not him. I believe that it is misguided in suggesting that he fixes himself and thus the marriage.

Absolutely, I agree with you. She has a HELL of a lot of work to do, not only on the marriage, but on herself. The changes he makes are not going to save the marriage all by themselves. But they will help, and if, heaven forbid, the marriage ends, they're going to stand him in much better stead. And whichever way things work out, they're going to make him feel a lot better about himself, and increase his self-confidence -- which is pretty much at rock bottom right now.

 

A useful reference point I've heard is that the cheating isn't the "problem" in the marriage -- it's the symptom of the problem. I.e. it wouldn't have happened if there wasn't something wrong with the marriage, or with how one of them is approaching the marriage. A relationship works where each partner meets the other's needs. Where they don't, it can deteriorate or end, possibly with cheating involved.

 

A way to look at this is that each of them is 50% responsible for the state of the marriage overall. However, she is 100% responsible for the "symptom", i.e. the cheating.

 

I somewhat agree. HE isnt meeting HER needs. So he needs to ask. What needs? How can I improve? Then he can lay out what he needs from her (like MC).

Again, I agree. MC is going to be needed here. I'm just saying that he needs to work on himself as well, and not be the same guy that got cheated on.

 

Nope. It is not his job to appear attractive enough for her to return. Its setting him up to fail. It sounds like he is to cede control of what to change and how much - all held to HER standard for the privilege of staying married.

I'm certainly not suggesting that the onus is totally on him. She needs to fix the damage she caused and actually learn to communicate her dissatisfaction in constructive ways, rather than dealing with it in the stupid, selfish, hurtful, destructive manner she chose.

 

But he needs to take a role in becoming more attractive to her, like it or not. If he doesn't, she may not cheat again, but the marriage will simply plod onward until it finally creaks to an end. We hear about couples who have been married for years and are still hot for each other. Sounds like a great thing to aspire to.

 

And it doesn't mean that he gives up control to her -- far from it. On the contrary, he's making changes for HIM. He's not asking her -- he's just doing them. He'll hopefully become a confident, vital guy who, outwardly at least, is happy with himself and knows what he wants, and isn't clinging to her for approval and validation all the time. The standard I'm suggesting he hold himself to isn't HERS -- it's an objective standard of what makes somebody attractive to other people. Being confident, having different interests, looking good, being fit, and not being needy and dependent. And being those things will be good for him whether the marriage works out or not.

[65tr6]

I somewhat agree. HE isnt meeting HER needs. So he needs to ask. What needs? How can I improve? Then he can lay out what he needs from her (like MC)..

 

Just for the record, we talked about length what our needs are. EN + PN. We both filled out questionnairres from marriagebuilders. There were few surprises as to what our needs are but for most part we were spot on. Just because we know what our needs are does not mean you can start applying them. It is going to take time.

 

Like i said, there were significant changes made by me already in the last several weeks. When she admitted the affair, i said i wanted her back no matter what. But now that is NOT the case. She has to change and by miles.

 

Back on the orginal topic...i was always attached to my wife but this traumatic event...which i took very hard, had made me, at times literally cling to her. I hated doing it but i just could not stop myself. Hence the post. I am promising myself not to do it. And reservoir has some valid points that i could use right now.

 

Nope. It is not his job to appear attractive enough for her to return. Its setting him up to fail. It sounds like he is to cede control of what to change and how much - all held to HER standard for the privilege of staying married.

 

Not if i understand and stay within my limitations. I have rarely failed in my life. I consider myself highly educated and fairly successful professional. But what is wrong in changing if it makes you a better person ? and less dependant ?

[Untouchable_Fire]

Just for the record, we talked about length what our needs are. EN + PN. We both filled out questionnairres from marriagebuilders. There were few surprises as to what our needs are but for most part we were spot on. Just because we know what our needs are does not mean you can start applying them. It is going to take time.

 

Like i said, there were significant changes made by me already in the last several weeks. When she admitted the affair, i said i wanted her back no matter what. But now that is NOT the case. She has to change and by miles.

 

Back on the orginal topic...i was always attached to my wife but this traumatic event...which i took very hard, had made me, at times literally cling to her. I hated doing it but i just could not stop myself. Hence the post. I am promising myself not to do it. And reservoir has some valid points that i could use right now.

 

Not if i understand and stay within my limitations. I have rarely failed in my life. I consider myself highly educated and fairly successful professional. But what is wrong in changing if it makes you a better person ? and less dependant ?

 

Clearly you are going down the right path!

 

Have you considered dating other women?

[reservoirdog1]

You should take strong steps to make sure there is no contact between them at this stage. Be a hardass about this part!

I completely agree. You should demand that she cease contact IMMEDIATELY with the OM. If she wants to do it by phone, you sit there and listen as she phones him. If she wants to do it by email, you watch her send it. And then, she must give you unfettered, anytime access to her cell phone, email, and internet history. That includes all passwords. This must be part of the work SHE has to do to rebuild the trust she destroyed.

 

(If it were me, again, I might just send the OM a message of my own, telling him to stay the f*ck away from my wife from now on, and to not contact her again. I wouldn't make any threats, but I'd make it pretty damned clear that there is a line, he crossed it, and that he is not to do that again.)

 

If she won't do these things, then I say you lower the boom. You start sleeping on the couch, and start conducting your life pretty much separate from her. No sex, no affection. She will have demonstrated that she's still hiding things from you, and probably that she's still in contact with the OM. And in that circumstance, no reconciliation is possible. Or worthwhile.

[65tr6]

Have you considered dating other women?

ok, first of all, you are not serious are you ?

Having said, i have started looking at other woman, of late, with different intentions . lol.

 

No really, i want to know what makes you think it is OK for me to start dating other women when i still in a marriage. You are not being sarcastic, are you ?

[65tr6]

I completely agree. You should demand that she cease contact IMMEDIATELY with the OM.

NC whatsoever.

[Untouchable_Fire]

ok, first of all, you are not serious are you ?

Having said, i have started looking at other woman, of late, with different intentions . lol.

No really, i want to know what makes you think it is OK for me to start dating other women when i still in a marriage. You are not being sarcastic, are you ?

 

Yes, very serious. If not dating then at least make an effort to flirt! Technically you can call yourself separated. Personally I would not suggest getting physical with anyone else, but I think dating would be very healthy for you.

 

Your wife has been dating... why can't you? If you so choose.

It's about getting your confidence back, nothing else.

[jwi71]

Just for the record, we talked about length what our needs are. EN + PN. We both filled out questionnairres from marriagebuilders. There were few surprises as to what our needs are but for most part we were spot on. Just because we know what our needs are does not mean you can start applying them. It is going to take time.

 

You're going to have to explain this. If you know of each others needs then why can't you start meeting them? What are you waiting for? I am sure you know she cheated because certain needs weren't being met. Which needs? Are these the same needs you know of and will not work on now? How many needs of hers are NOT being met now? So what needs are not being met and STILL NOT BEING MET?

 

Like i said, there were significant changes made by me already in the last several weeks. When she admitted the affair, i said i wanted her back no matter what. But now that is NOT the case. She has to change and by miles.

Its a phase. Went through it myself for a short time. Some of the hardest and most productive work comes during this stage. It will also be readily apparent and quickly if the M will survive - and her ACTIONS determine this.

 

Back on the orginal topic...i was always attached to my wife but this traumatic event...which i took very hard, had made me, at times literally cling to her. I hated doing it but i just could not stop myself. Hence the post. I am promising myself not to do it. And reservoir has some valid points that i could use right now.

Fair enough. It is, as we all know, your life. I hope you two walk down a path which leads to an outcome you can both live with - married or not.

 

Not if i understand and stay within my limitations. I have rarely failed in my life. I consider myself highly educated and fairly successful professional. But what is wrong in changing if it makes you a better person ? and less dependant ?

Nothing is wrong with changing for YOU. EVERYTHING is wrong if you change for HER. It is compounded by withholding sex or cuddling - especially when the stated goal is to make her want you. Its a game. Pure and simple. And it may in fact produce short term gains. But the real cancer stil exists - and she isn't (according to what is posted) wokring on the core issues (needs time, refuses MC, whatever)...

 

I want this to work to a conclusion you can live with.

Have you spoken with a lawyer? Not do you know of one but have you paid his fee and had a frank legal discussion of where you stand? Takes about 90 minutes or so. This is for YOU. To educate you. And yes, tell your W you are seeking out one for advice.

[michelangelo]

My marriage is in its death throws. I have been as these two guys have been.

 

I have to say, I think the comments quoted here should be stamped in gold and handed to every guy contemplating behaving like their marriage is everything to them. For a lot of women, they like that as a capture device. But ultimately it turns them off once they realize it is not sexually exciting to them to have someone so P/whipped.

 

Oh, they love having the trappings of marriage and a decent man's providing. So instead of just leaving once they realize their desires are for other men, they go into deep cover and deceive their husband.

 

Idiots as many of us are, we have no idea and are devastated to realize that our affections are not returned by our wives. Sure, they may have a kind of affection for us, father of their children, etc., but lust and love. No.

 

Cowards that they are, they would rather cheat than be candid with us or honest with themselves.

 

You may not be able to save the marriage(most cannot after infidelity) but now you have learned a hard lesson about depending on another for your happiness and self worth. This is a painful lesson that I had to learn, as well. It alters your approach to relationships.

I think your wife must have been a poor communicator to have gone this route without addressing her disatisfaction. It is tough to be in a relationship with someone like that as one is always guessing and does not really know where one stands.

I gave way too much to my marriage and it was unhealthy and destructive. The balance of power was so skewed that Ilost my wife's respect(not that she has much for anyone). More importantly, I lost respect for myself and modeled doormatedness for the kids. I was a complete idiot in that regard, It will never happen again(I hope).

 

 

AMEN TO THAT.

 

I did exactly the same thing when I was married. Very early on, I pretty much decided that I was no longer "me" -- I was now part of an "us". Pretty willingly, I subsumed myself into the marriage, gave up some things I liked doing that make my life more enjoyable, because I figured I "wasn't about that anymore" (and no, they weren't things that are incompatible with marriage, like dating other women or anything). I gave up my individuality. And the real shame is that I did it mostly willingly, not because XW made me. Doing that was my greatest failure in that marriage.

 

The result of having done so was that, when faced with the end of the marriage, I felt completely adrift and unsure what to do. I felt like I was losing the foundational thing in my life, on which all other things depended. I had spent years defining myself by something that no longer existed. Who the hell was I? What were the things I liked, that got ME going, and that made MY life more interesting? I really didn't know anymore. And part of reinventing myself was finding out. I've tried a bunch of new things since then. Some I didn't like and I didn't continue with them, but that's okay -- my life is richer and more complete because of those experiences. Some of them, I've stuck with, and they continue to enrich my life.

 

Overall, I think XW respects me again. In fact, I believe her respect for me started coming back the first week after we split up. And she does seem to think that I'm a pretty amazing dad to the kids, and has told me so recently. And you know what? She's absolutely right.

[Untouchable_Fire]

My marriage is in its death throws. I have been as these two guys have been.

I have to say, I think the comments quoted here should be stamped in gold and handed to every guy contemplating behaving like their marriage is everything to them. For a lot of women, they like that as a capture device. But ultimately it turns them off once they realize it is not sexually exciting to them to have someone so P/whipped.

Oh, they love having the trappings of marriage and a decent man's providing. So instead of just leaving once they realize their desires are for other men, they go into deep cover and deceive their husband.

Idiots as many of us are, we have no idea and are devastated to realize that our affections are not returned by our wives. Sure, they may have a kind of affection for us, father of their children, etc., but lust and love. No.

Cowards that they are, they would rather cheat than be candid with us or honest with themselves.

 

At a guess what percentage of the female population would you consider this an accurate depiction of?

 

I would think... 10% or so?

[michelangelo]

If half the married female population has cheated, I believe a good proportion of that set of wives does this.

 

 

 

At a guess what percentage of the female population would you consider this an accurate depiction of?

 

I would think... 10% or so?

[65tr6]

You're going to have to explain this. If you know of each others needs then why can't you start meeting them? What are you waiting for? I am sure you know she cheated because certain needs weren't being met. Which needs? Are these the same needs you know of and will not work on now? How many needs of hers are NOT being met now? So what needs are not being met and STILL NOT BEING MET? .

 

jw, we are meeting (some of) each other's needs..not all at the same time. It is going to take time. Ask me that question again in about 2 months from now. If we look back and realise how much we have come along in the last couple of months, we both feel we can take a lot of confidence from this. I have not cried in the last several days (may be even weeks ?).

 

 

Its a phase. Went through it myself for a short time. Some of the hardest and most productive work comes during this stage. It will also be readily apparent and quickly if the M will survive - and her ACTIONS determine this.

 

.

I agree with you. On her part there is still NC and is going through IC. I dont feel the need for IC at all anymore. I did have those feelings when i was in a state of shock.

 

 

Nothing is wrong with changing for YOU. EVERYTHING is wrong if you change for HER. It is compounded by withholding sex or cuddling - especially when the stated goal is to make her want you. Its a game. Pure and simple. And it may in fact produce short term gains. But the real cancer stil exists - and she isn't (according to what is posted) wokring on the core issues (needs time, refuses MC, whatever)....

 

let me address one thing at a time. Sex...yes it was same for the last couple of years..not true affection/emotional but she did have a good time..So did I. It was always good. But not great great. It is not any different anymore well may be she is not ready for herself yet. We are making progress.

 

Changing for HER....Yes you are correct. That is how it started out. But that is NOT the only thing. I am working on myself as a person and at the same time, prepare myself for the worst. I realised how much i was depending on her/marriage. But that is changing now. Again ask me again 2 months from now, how dependant do i feel. Did i say i am a quick learner ?

 

By the way, I have a great update. I have followed the advice here and elsewhere. And have taken up a new hobby which i always wanted to. Skating. I love it !!

 

For the first time in my life, i have skated. At first, when i walked into the rink, I was sloppy, ugly and what not.

 

Boy, did that change quickly or what. I kept at it for the following 3 hours and within the hour i had bunch of real nice folks come by and give me great tips. I fell few times...sometimes it was bad but most of it was a gracefull fall (if there is one such ). But in either case nothing i was ashamed of and not one of them laughed at me. Not that it would have mattered.

 

There were couple of kids who asked me how old i was ((i look very young for my age by the way ) and were saying that i would pick this up in a month - . i know they were stretching it ! But the point is, it made me feel like i was in heaven. At the end of it, i was talking to 10 different strangers who i never met before as if i have known them. And i am very shy by the way.

 

Before i left, one of them said, hope to see you again soon..I was like..you bet ! It was one of the best days of my life.

 

I am doing this, first for myself, and also to help my son skate. I want to take up mountain climbing next.

 

I never felt this much motivated in my life before. Why i am i posting all this here ? I dont know. I feel like i want to share this with someone.

 

jw, i agree with most of what you say. You are, what i call, very practical, straight shooter. But as you may know, every relationship has a bit of idiosyncracies that make it somewhat unique. I also like quiet of bit of what reservoir said. And dont forget Reggie and anyone else i missed. It's almost like i am picking the best of what you folks have to say. I truely appreciate all the feedback.

[Owl]

I love that last post, man!!

 

I just recently took up rollerskating as well (I'm in my 40s). I've got three boys all in their early 20s who convinced me to start going with them, and I've been having a blast!!

 

Keep going weekly if you can. It's a great workout, a great way to alleviate stress, and it'll help you sleep soundly when you're done.

 

And you'll be amazed at how quick you can improve. I've only been skating since June...and most people don't believe it when I tell them that.

 

If you think you're gonna keep doing this, it's worth the investment in a decent pair of skates for yourself.

 

Glad to hear about doing the EN questionairre, and working to meet each other's needs. You're on the right track here, friend. Work on keeing the open and honest communication going, and you're moving well towards recovery.

[reservoirdog1]

By the way, I have a great update. I have followed the advice here and elsewhere. And have taken up a new hobby which i always wanted to. Skating. I love it !!

 

For the first time in my life, i have skated. At first, when i walked into the rink, I was sloppy, ugly and what not.

 

Boy, did that change quickly or what. I kept at it for the following 3 hours and within the hour i had bunch of real nice folks come by and give me great tips. I fell few times...sometimes it was bad but most of it was a gracefull fall (if there is one such ). But in either case nothing i was ashamed of and not one of them laughed at me. Not that it would have mattered.

 

There were couple of kids who asked me how old i was ((i look very young for my age by the way ) and were saying that i would pick this up in a month - . i know they were stretching it ! But the point is, it made me feel like i was in heaven. At the end of it, i was talking to 10 different strangers who i never met before as if i have known them. And i am very shy by the way.

 

Before i left, one of them said, hope to see you again soon..I was like..you bet ! It was one of the best days of my life.

 

I am doing this, first for myself, and also to help my son skate. I want to take up mountain climbing next.

 

I never felt this much motivated in my life before. Why i am i posting all this here ? I dont know. I feel like i want to share this with someone.

 

jw, i agree with most of what you say. You are, what i call, very practical, straight shooter. But as you may know, every relationship has a bit of idiosyncracies that make it somewhat unique. I also like quiet of bit of what reservoir said. And dont forget Reggie and anyone else i missed. It's almost like i am picking the best of what you folks have to say. I truely appreciate all the feedback.

Buddy, that is great news. That's exactly what you should be doing. Yes, it will make you seem more vital, more interesting and more desirable to your WW for you to have a pasttime that she isn't part of. But that's only a small piece of why you're doing it. Mostly, you're doing it because it's something you've always wanted to do, that for whatever reason you didn't do until now, and now you've said, "By god, I'm going to do this, because it'll make MY life better, more enjoyable, and more fulfilling." And if your marriage ends, you'll still have this new interest, and one that you can share with your son. (Plus, from what you've described, you never know who you might meet on the rink... )

 

Your WW can take your marriage away from you. But she can't take away all the other things you're putting in your life that enrich it and make it better. There's inestimable value in that.