Update on the life of a Planofool

[Kasan]

Exactly.

 

Kasan, I like the way you think.

 

Ah thanks.................:)

 

Another thought would be to enlist your therapist in helping you to formulate a plan and to establish boundaries.

 

I think you might find the first time that you lower the boom on her will be very difficult, but trust me, it will get easier every time.

 

Your self-esteem will grow, the household chaos will diminish, and you will find out if there is anything left to work on in your marriage.

 

Really Panofool, it's a win, win situation for everyone involved.:)

[Kasan]

Had another thought here....

 

What is angering you the most, the house or the men?

 

If you were to pick the house issue first, I would give her a deadline on cleaning your bedroom. If she didn't meet the deadline, I would (hire, if I had to) get rid of everything in the bedroom, that wasn't used for sleeping or storage of clothing.

 

I would then continue in the same way room by room until she got the message that you "meant what you said."

 

You say that she would just clutter it up again--so take a garbage bag and clean up any crap that she drags in daily. Enlist the kids help. Limit her funds for shopping as Owl noted earlier.

 

Is she going to like this? Is she going to resist? What do you think?

 

You don't have to argue, or fight, but just be firm with her--your not doing this just for you, but for your kids.

 

I wouldn't be surprised (if you can soldier through this) if some of your other issues with her get resolved, because she will know that you are serious about the changes you want to see happen in your marriage.

[Planofool]

Had another thought here....

 

What is angering you the most, the house or the men?

 

I get angry every day when I open a cabinet, or see the crap she drags in from shopping, or see how cluttered everything is. I have learned to live with it.

The EA and the deceit over the years hurts more than angers.

 

If she gets involved with another man it's over for me. If she goes shopping and buys more junk we already have, then I get angry.

 

I think your plan is great and I need to implement it.

[greengoddess]

Thanks for the advice. Slept on it and here is what I think.

 

I do need to draw the line in the sand no doubt. I don't think kicking her out of the house is the answer. We have an 11 year old daughter that would not understand this and would be devastated. My older kids might understand but I still don't think that is the answer.

 

I have enabled her and let this go on for 25 years. How can Ii expect her to change overnight?

 

Your kids need to see a healthier environment not live in a mess such as that. I think you should move out and give your kids a safe place to bring their friends. She needs more help than I think you can give her and unless you show her actions she won't get any.

[Owl]

I agree with Kasan on the 'plan', with one tweak...

 

Don't 'set a deadline'. You have already done so...and that deadline is LONG PAST. Don't set a new one...its just one more opportunity to let it too go by the wayside.

 

Enforce your ALREADY ESTABLISHED boundary and deadline.

 

Don't wait...start doing what Kasan suggested TODAY. THIS WEEKEND.

[Planofool]

She knows she needs help. But she is just like the alcoholic that won't quit drinking. Like I said she went with me to a therapist and got into it with him. She will tell you she has problems and then claim she knows how to fix them. As usual nothing happens.

 

I guess I let it go because it easier to deal with her if there is no confrontation.

[Owl]

If you change nothing, nothing changes.

 

She doesn't change her behaviors because there's no PRESSURE for her to do so. Just a lot of talk.

 

That's why boundaries gotta have teeth.

 

Otherwise, they're just words that don't accomplish anything.

 

She doesn't change, because she knows you don't care enough to do something about it.

 

If you want that dynamic to change...then you need to start caring enough to do something about it, rather than just complain about it.

[Kasan]

I guess I let it go because it easier to deal with her if there is no confrontation.

 

Confrontation isn't always a bad thing............

 

By not "calling her out" on her stuff you have allowed....

 

chaos in your home

 

your kids won't bring their friends home

 

you have been disrespected, which your kids have witnessed

 

your kids have learned what an unhealthy marriage looks like

 

you are on a low simmer with your anger.....what health problems will result from this?

 

You can do this Planofool!!

 

If it were me, I would take the greatest pleasure in making the decision of having things "my way" for a change. I would probably do a "dance of joy" thinking about implementing the new changes in the kid's life and my own. But I'm evil that way!!:)

[Planofool]

Thanks for the info. For some reason coming from you guys it means more. I paid good money to hear this from and therapist and did nothing with it. Maybe hearing it from people that have actually been through it makes it stick better. Well I am off to plan the 1st wave of the battle. Oh yeah, do you think I should discuss this with my two older kids?

[Kasan]

I wouldn't discuss this with your older kids.

 

This is your time to take control of the family. They will figure it out, I am sure.

 

Besides you don't want to put them in the middle--this is your issue with their mother.

 

Good luck!! I'm pulling for you!!:)

 

Let us know how it goes!!

[Planofool]

Well she threw a curve at me last as soon as I got home. She said that she knows I am going to leave her over trust issues. She went on to say she had watched Oprah Winfrey and this man and woman were having problems because he wanted sex 5 times a week and she didn't. Can somebody make sense of this for me. Or did somebody see the show?

[Kasan]

No, I didn't see Oprah so I can't tell you anything about the show.

 

But.....you know that your wife has issues, which are her issues, that she needs to work on and figure out.

 

Perhaps you can suggest that this is one of the reasons that she needs to get some counseling?

 

Don't let this distract you from implementing your plans!:D

[Owl]

I agree that you should not let this distract you from your plan to implement these new boundaries.

 

I'd also consider having a quick sit down discussion with your wife...seperate from the one over the hoarding problems...and ask her why she thinks that you're going to leave her, and ask her point blank a simple question..."If you're worried that this might happen, what steps are you taking to FIX the situation?".

 

Rather than reassure her, put the onus back on her to fix the problem...which is where its really been all along.

 

I think that she tried to shift the onus to FIX this back on you with her little "Oprah confrontation". She brought it up the way she did, expecting you to reassure her that you wouldn't do this...and therefore enable the status quo.

[Dexter Morgan]

Nice to hear from you Owl. Sorry for the TJ-ing.

 

D-day was June 19th 2007. Since then I have been in therapy with a new therapist for the last few months. I have also spoken to the OM whom broke the NC barrier with 2 text messages to my spouse. Both of which I intercepted on her cell phone. I called him and told him to stop trying to contact her. He asked if that was what she wanted. I also told him to get a life, that it wasn't right to be in love with your 2nd cousin. Yes I still check her phone, her e-mail accounts and am still searching the house for love letters from the past.

I feel that my love for her is growing weaker and weaker.

 

I honestly don't know how you have held out this long.

 

Ask yourself, do you really want to be married to someone that screwed you over so badly and that you have to always wonder if she is doing it again, or when she will do it again?

[Planofool]

Yesterday I took her a sack full of photos of her 1st wedding, her x husband and friends and some x boyfriends and pictures of the OM in the EA along with some gifts (ruby and diamond earrings that OM bought for her) and said I want these out of our house. I don't mind if she keeps them......just not in my house. Our youngest daughter does not know her mother was married before. Earlier this year she stumbled across a wedding photo of my wife and her x. She said daddy what is this.....I said go ask your mom. That is when I said I would like for all pictures of that nature to get out of the house. Of course that didn't happen.

 

It never used to bother me that she had all those pictures around. I mean she was married before. She did have a life before me. But with the events of last year I think they need to go. Do you guys agree?

[noreply110]

I am so annoyed with you that even though I lost my last response I am retyping it.

 

It has been mentioned before, but I want to be very blunt about it. Be a father. You are so distracted with nonessental things like your wife's interest in an Oprah episode yet you totally ignore your own children's pleas for a normal life.

 

You are a horrible parent. You spend time worrying about a woman who doesn't respect you enough to stop having unappropriate relationships with men (you have to tell her to stop, and are happy when she listens??) yet your own children's needs go unheard. Your children deserve a normal, safe, healthy childhoods, yet you refuse to try because your wife "will just fill it back up with stuff" What??

 

Grow up. Be a father. You make your children your excuse. You said you can't kick out your wife because your 11 year old child would be devestated. That is a crappy excuse. And not the action of an adult. Your children have a mentally ill mother and a father who is so wrapped up in his own hurt he won't help them.

 

I know this is mean. But you got some of the best advice I have heard on here in a long time, seem to take it in, and then blow it off when your wife says something you take as hopefully a sign she still loves you. If you can't get your own life in order for you, try to pull it together for the three people who rely on you that you are letting down.

[Owl]

Unless she cheated on you with this ex, I'm not sure why you'd be overly upset about a picture or two of him being around. Now, if it's just pictures of her and him, and they are posted up on the walls or something...yes, I can see that. It's disrespectful of your marriage...it hints and suggests that she'd prefer to be 'back there with him' rather than 'here with you'.

 

If they're just packed away in a photo album or mixed in with stacks of other pictures...no big deal. It's just an old part of her life, and it's not like she's trying to live that life now. If that's the case, I'd wonder about WHY you'd be upset about them still being around. If they're being displayed...that's another story.

 

See the difference?

 

What's your status on confronting her about the cleanup of the house???????

[Kasan]

Well, he did say there were photos and jewelry gifts from the EA OM. I wouldn't want those mementos in my house either.:eek:

 

How did she take this? And....why didn't your daughter know that she was married before? Why the secrecy?

 

Planofool......great to see that you cleaned out a "sack" of old stuff, now don't get distracted--keep going.

[Dexter Morgan]

Yesterday I took her a sack full of photos of her 1st wedding, her x husband and friends and some x boyfriends and pictures of the OM in the EA along with some gifts (ruby and diamond earrings that OM bought for her) and said I want these out of our house. I don't mind if she keeps them......just not in my house.

 

It is inappropriate for her to keep ANY momentos of the OM.

 

The fact she has any and is holding on to them tells me she needs to be served divorce papers.

 

 

Our youngest daughter does not know her mother was married before.

 

I take it she also doesn't know her mother is unfaithful to her father.

 

 

Earlier this year she stumbled across a wedding photo of my wife and her x. She said daddy what is this.....I said go ask your mom. That is when I said I would like for all pictures of that nature to get out of the house. Of course that didn't happen.

 

It didn't? Hmmm, so she betrays you, and can't even honor this simple request? Maybe I can understand keeping old wedding photos, but like I said, momentos to remind her of the man she betrayed you with is unacceptable. And if she doesn't want to get rid of them, she is further showing her disrespect of you.

 

So question now is, when are you going to get rid of her since she obviously can't completely get rid of the OM?

 

 

It never used to bother me that she had all those pictures around. I mean she was married before. She did have a life before me. But with the events of last year I think they need to go. Do you guys agree?

 

I agree that the pictures and ANYTHING having to do with the OM need to be destroyed. end of discussion.

 

If she isn't willing to do that, then give her another momento, divorce papers.

[Dexter Morgan]

I am so annoyed with you that even though I lost my last response I am retyping it.

 

It has been mentioned before, but I want to be very blunt about it. Be a father. You are so distracted with nonessental things like your wife's interest in an Oprah episode yet you totally ignore your own children's pleas for a normal life.

 

You are a horrible parent.

 

That was totally uncalled for. The horrible parent is the one that can't be faithful to the child's father.

[JustBreathe]

Plano, telling her to get rid of her stuff is a good move and an indicator that you are ready to make some real changes.

 

NoReply came on very strong, but I think some of the message was totally on point. NOT that you aren't a good parent, but that you are wasting your time running in circles around this woman who is a chaos maker and whom the kids argue about and who has deep problems with relationships.

 

Your 11 year old will be happier when her mother has gotten some therapy, you can make her understand this. How involved is your wife with your 11 year old anyway? You have not mentioned this, but my guess would be not nearly as involved as she should be. My guess is she lets you deal with the kids because she's too immersed in her mental state. Perhaps I'm speaking from my own experience.

 

Plano, you have major major co-dependent issues to address. I am not one for labels, but I fit the bill and, for lack of a better description, that's what I am. I'm working on it, and feel I've improved hugely from what I was before. From what you're posting here, you fit the co-dependent bill as well.

 

Buy this book: 12 Steps for Co-Dependents, the author is Melanie Beattie. It opened my eyes. Another helpful thing was to go to 12 step meetings for children of alcoholics - your wife doesn't have to be an alcoholic for you to benefit from the program.

 

I'm done with this thread as I don't have anything else to say (except I still think you should make her move out), so .... I will just sincerely wish you and yours the best of luck with this. I know the havoc a mentally sick person can cause in a home and how miserable it can make everyone and how trapped you all feel.

[Planofool]

Reality.

 

My wife has been very instrumental in the raising of our children good and bad. The older they get the more they see through some of her ways. She is very hands on with the kids and that is why they have a problem with her. She has rules for them to follow but does not practice them herself. When it is called to her attention she tells them she is the adult here. The problem is the older two have seen her other side.

 

I guess the reality for me is I am very hands off and I have enabled her all these years and it took my kids to point it out to me. The problems my kids have with her have shown me how I have let the situation erode to the point it is now.

 

Codependant is a term the therapist used with me for our first session and she gave me a book to read on the subject. I had trouble in the beginning because I think my wife and I both fit the bill in certain areas. My therapist told me to go to AA meetings for my benefit.

 

I guess all the old pictures and gifts just finally took there toll on me and I wanted them gone. The fact that all that stuff represented a secret life that I didn't realize she was living is what made it worse. She can keep the stuff at her mom's.

 

The ironic thing is all the advice I am getting I have gotten before. I just need to implement it. I will try not to feel sorry for myself. I just needed to hear it from you guys.

[Dexter Morgan]

I guess all the old pictures and gifts just finally took there toll on me and I wanted them gone. The fact that all that stuff represented a secret life that I didn't realize she was living is what made it worse. She can keep the stuff at her mom's.

 

 

Unless she had an affair on you with the guys in the pictures, she should be able to keep them. Its no big deal.

 

But you have every right to expect she burn and trash any momentos of the OM that she betrayed you with.

 

If she doesn't want to get rid of them, then you need to get rid of her.

Either she acts like a wife or she doesn't need to be one.

[Planofool]

I need to clarify this picture thing.

 

The x, I knew she had been married before and I was not the least bit jealous of him....he was her husband. They were done, divorced, over with, the end. I was told he was the only man she had been with.

The truth is he started trying to get her back when he heard we were dating and it didn't stop after we were married. she has held onto him mentally all these years.

 

The man that ratted out the x's unfaithfulness was also her lover while she was seperated from her x. After the divorce they dated and became even closer lovers. I was told he was just a friend and they went out a few times. 27 yrs later I learned she got caught in bed with him by the x. He would not leave her alone after we started dating. I also learned he called our house alot after we were married. I also get to see this guy alot because we have kids the same age at the same school. He is always coming up with reasons to come up and talk to me which leads to talking to my wife. So screw him and his pictures.

 

That brings us to the man that turned into the OM. He started out as her 2nd cousin. He would call our house and they would talk and she would say that was just my cousin calling about the family reunion. Turns out they dated, before me of course. He managed to stop by and see her the week before our marriage. They stayed in contact all these years through letters and phone calls. He would send her gifts and they would exchage pictures. I have yet to find the ones he sent her with less clothes on than normal, but he did send them. They got out of control on the cell phones last summer for 3 months before I caught them. So screw him and his pictures, love letters and gifts.

 

Call me what you want but all that sh*t needs to leave my house.

[Kasan]

So how did she take your putting your foot down by telling her you wanted the ex stuff gone?

 

How is it going on cleaning up the house?

 

As I have been married longer than you, I get where you are coming from as far as the marriage dynamics, and how difficult it can be to finally decide enough is enough and then to do something about it.

 

Make a plan and realize, that in all likelihood, there is going to be a lot of resistance. She is going to do the same ole, same ole, as this has worked in the past.

 

Knowing this, don't allow yourself to get distracted!

 

So.....did the bedroom get cleaned, and what room is next?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if she becomes more needy as you continue on.............