Author Isolde Posted November 18, 2008 Author Posted November 18, 2008 Yes, I would be one of those men. It bothers me because the type of women who has a masters tend to often be "careerists", as another poster pointed out to me once. IME, these women generally are less likely to want children and more likely to have higher expectations and needs in life, and more often than not see a man as disposable. That is a turn-off to me. I usually ask these type of women one question: If you had to have a good career or a good family life, which would you choose? I rarely get a response choosing family over career. Generally the response is "Why can't I have both?" If I had to choose ultimately, I"d choose family but I'm 22, don't have a bf. What do you expect me to do, live at my parents and do nothing?! I just don't like these assumptions. Some of us want to work in our twenties (because we have to) and we might as well work at jobs that are more dynamic than secretary work (not that there is anything wrong with a desk job, those are needed too). I am the least power hungry person you'll ever meet.
Woggle Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 Most of what a man is attracted has to do with attitude and demeanor. Many professional women project this demeanor that just turns men off and are instincts tell us to run or just use her for some quick action. If a woman is successful and projects a demeanor that does not send red flags to a man she will have a much easier time.
Geishawhelk Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 I agree with this. Too many women think they have to behave aggressively in a "man's world" to compete - or "out-men" the men. This is ridiculous. No woman can ever be a man, just as no man can ever be a woman. (Let's just set surgery or sexual orientation to one side here - !) We should all learn how to function to the best of our abilities, and use our talents, gifts and attributes to mutual advantage. I wouldn't want to be 'able' to do everything a man can do. And i wouldn't like to have the reputation of being a B*tch at it, either.
Author Isolde Posted November 18, 2008 Author Posted November 18, 2008 I agree with this. Too many women think they have to behave aggressively in a "man's world" to compete - or "out-men" the men. This is ridiculous. No woman can ever be a man, just as no man can ever be a woman. (Let's just set surgery or sexual orientation to one side here - !) We should all learn how to function to the best of our abilities, and use our talents, gifts and attributes to mutual advantage. I wouldn't want to be 'able' to do everything a man can do. And i wouldn't like to have the reputation of being a B*tch at it, either. You're missing the point, GW. I never said I wanted to be able to do everything a man can. I'm not even in a man dominated field (it's about 50-50).
Geishawhelk Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 I was just making a general point. I wasn't replying to your post, necessarily. I was actually focussing on the bulk of Woggle's.....
Author Isolde Posted November 18, 2008 Author Posted November 18, 2008 I was just making a general point. I wasn't replying to your post, necessarily. I was actually focussing on the bulk of Woggle's..... Oh, in that context, then, I agree with you. I think that if men and women worked together to allow an alternative, feminine sort of "power" in the workplace, things would be much easier.
kashmir Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 Success and professionalism are attractive. Arrogance is not. This pretty sums up what I'm trying to say. Success isn't unattractive, but the arrogant attitude that is known to come with success is. This is exactly what I would want from a man... Nothing more... I would never want a guy to be my "provider" or "caretaker", just those words by themselves are already pretty patronizing. I never meant to actually "provide," but I said before, a woman who is easily successful on her own seems to carry into other aspects of a relationship. You just get this sense that she doesn't want to play the feminine role...to get hit on, flirted with, and pursued by a man, because as you said, that's patronizing.
Woggle Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 I was just making a general point. I wasn't replying to your post, necessarily. I was actually focussing on the bulk of Woggle's..... That outman the men thing wasn't from me. I do often see that many women try and imitate what they think men are like in order to beat us at our own game but they often just imitate the feminist sterotype of what a man is.
fral945 Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 If I had to choose ultimately, I"d choose family but I'm 22, don't have a bf. What do you expect me to do, live at my parents and do nothing?! Then you are the exception to the rule. IME most women with or working towards your education level and above do not answer in the same way. I just don't like these assumptions. Some of us want to work in our twenties (because we have to) and we might as well work at jobs that are more dynamic than secretary work (not that there is anything wrong with a desk job, those are needed too). I am the least power hungry person you'll ever meet. We all make assumptions, it's human nature when you see patterns to make generalizations. I ask the question to determine whether or not the generalization is true. I doubt you would be a turn-off to many men in that respect. You'll just have to make that clear early on. FWIW, I fight many generalizations as well because I don't fit all the male stereotypes. It's something both sexes have to deal with.
DunnoWhat Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 Femine women and business don't usually mix. Therefore if women choose to go after money then it's not going to be very attractive to most men. Thats logical and no point in women trying to pretend otherwise.
carhill Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 This is exactly what I would want from a man... Nothing more... I would never want a guy to be my "provider" or "caretaker", just those words by themselves are already pretty patronizing. The key here is *how* do you value those assets and *how* do you communicate that valuation? My readings of your other postings indicate to me that you seem to prefer emotional distance from people in general. Not wrong or right, just a perspective. However, in a relationship, discrete actions and behaviors and "assets" should move to a position closer than arm's length and be valued in a way which promotes intimacy. In your assertion, if you cannot or will not communicate that you value the listed behaviors/assets in a way which the man can understand and appreciate, then a fundamental incompatibility (disconnect) will exist. This is what I believe some here assert when talking about being successful and "feminine" and that those concepts can be compatible within one. It's the same thing IMO as a woman desiring a man who is strong and "sensitive".
stillafool Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 If I had to choose ultimately, I"d choose family but I'm 22, don't have a bf. What do you expect me to do, live at my parents and do nothing?! I just don't like these assumptions. Some of us want to work in our twenties (because we have to) and we might as well work at jobs that are more dynamic than secretary work (not that there is anything wrong with a desk job, those are needed too). I am the least power hungry person you'll ever meet. You're only 22 you have plenty of time to meet the love of your life. I can't believe most women your age are getting married now and having families are they? Most professional men I meet want to find a woman who has a career and is making good money. I hear it all the time. They want a woman who is educated with a good job. Why don't you professional women try to date professional men who value what you have and do?
Geishawhelk Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 Femine women and business don't usually mix. Therefore if women choose to go after money then it's not going to be very attractive to most men. Thats logical and no point in women trying to pretend otherwise. Hell - llo.... Could I welcome you to the 21st century -?! I'm a business woman, but certainly never to the detriment of my femininity. And it's not what a person does that makes them attractive. it's how they are, whilst they do what they do. You must be mixin' with an odd calibre of people.....
Trialbyfire Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 Women can mould themselves however they choose. If it makes them less attractive to traditional-minded men, that's quite alright! If you're targeting this type of man, then I guess you would mould yourself according to traditional specs, which is your choice as a woman. I love being a woman because it means I have a choice. Of course my choice is the former paragraph.
DunnoWhat Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 Hell - llo.... Could I welcome you to the 21st century -?! I'm a business woman, but certainly never to the detriment of my femininity. And it's not what a person does that makes them attractive. it's how they are, whilst they do what they do. You must be mixin' with an odd calibre of people..... I know it's the 21st century. Divorces, cheating, unhappiness, greed etc etc
Geishawhelk Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 Oh. That would be like the 1st century, and the 2nd one... oh and the 3rd one...... Except that now women are allowed to exist under their own steam. On equal footing. so if a man can be successful and make money, and retain his masculinity, I see very little logic in your argument that women can't do the same and retain their femininity.
You'reasian Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 I'm doing a masters degree in a professional area and am preparing for a fairly challenging (though not inflexible) career. I like the prospect of having a career but it's soured by everyone telling me guys are intimidated by professionalism. I mean, it's not that girls want to be tough feminists, but we've been put in this position of having to provide entirely for ourselves. Even if we have a serious bf, we can't just expect to marry him. I'd be happy to work less and have plenty of time to cook for a guy and pursue other hobbies, but that's not reality these days. So why is this professionalism intimidating to men when it's really the only choice women have if we want to live comfortably during our single years? I can't speak for other guys, but its not intimidating for me. Funny thing is, that i've been thrown into the group of guys being jealous/intimidated of such things, when in actuality I'm always seeking women who are professional/successful
Geishawhelk Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 One word: Margaret Thatcher. The destroyer of the working class. She is the reason; there will never be a female in Parliament for the next century. :lmao: There aren't any men now!!
Geishawhelk Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 :laugh: lighten up!! Life's too short to get your y-fronts on back to front!
Ruby Slippers Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 It has been a recurring theme in my relationships that the guy I'm with eventually becomes intimidated by my intelligence, abilities, or success, and it SUCKS. I am definitely not a spotlight hog who brags about herself -- I'm a modest introvert at heart, though I know how to be outgoing and go-get-'em when I need to. I am confident in the things I am good at, but like most girls I have my doubts and insecurities about certains aspects of myself. And I am very loving and adoring, giving my man a steady stream of positive feedback and reinforcement for his own accomplishments and abilities. I only ever want to share my success and good times with him -- never compete. The pattern with me is that at first the guy is really drawn to my independence, strength, and positive attitude, but almost invariably, sooner or later he begins to express his jealousy or intimidation in some way -- either by making naysaying comments about my goals and plans or making subtle insults about the things that threaten him most. My last boyfriend actually admitted that he was threatened by my strengths. He said he worried he wasn't smart enough for me, and it made him feel really bad that I was a better musician than him, when that's always been the thing he wants to be best at most. It was really a shame, because I was SO impressed by him on so many levels. I thought he was gorgeous, smart, funny, sexy as hell, an incredible musician, and I loved the way he rounded out my weak points. I was so proud of him and proud to call him my man. I tend to be somewhat shy, but he was very outgoing and got me into more raucous social situations, which was fun. I am sensitive and bruise easily, but from him I improved the skill of bouncing back quickly from being hurt. He's crazy good at anything physical, and he totally wowed me in any joint physical activity. He was my dream lover come to life, and together we made some of my longstanding sexual fantasies come true! He was a guy who knew how to get things done, and I was always drawn to that fire. I think that a self-actualized and successful woman will only be successful with a man who is every bit as accomplished and self-assured as she is. It takes a man with confidence who is happy with himself to truly appreciate the same kind of woman.
alphamale Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 I think that a self-actualized and successful woman will only be successful with a man who is every bit as accomplished and self-assured as she is. It takes a man with confidence who is happy with himself to truly appreciate the same kind of woman. maybe...but the self-actualized and successful man doesn't care whether his mate is self-actualized and successful also. In reality he will take the path of least resistance...
Trialbyfire Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 maybe...but the self-actualized and successful man doesn't care whether his mate is self-actualized and successful also. In reality he will take the path of least resistance...This varies man to man. Not every man wants what you want and not every woman wants the same thing. To be perfectly cynical, men say a lot of things. When it comes to attraction, it's always visual. When it comes to seeking out a long-term mate, there can be a lot of factors of which it starts with beauty, then is layered to preference. For some men, pedigree matters, for others, intelligence. For some, it's got to be all of the above and more. It varies.
alphamale Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 To be perfectly cynical, men say a lot of things. When it comes to attraction, it's always visual. When it comes to seeking out a long-term mate, there can be a lot of factors of which it starts with beauty, then is layered to preference. For some men, pedigree matters, for others, intelligence. For some, it's got to be all of the above and more. It varies. the reality TBF is that many successful men put less importance on having a successful woman....but many successful women prefer a man who is equal or higher in socio-economic status that they themselves are. thats the way it works. period.
Trialbyfire Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 the reality TBF is that many successful men put less importance on having a successful woman....but many successful women prefer a man who is equal or higher in socio-economic status that they themselves are. thats the way it works. period. I was reading a psych study about promiscuity, and the gender differences between. When men are looking for something short-term, it's all about volume processing and also, they look for below average intelligence women. When men are selecting for long-term commitment, they get a lot more particular about what they're looking for, of which it can include intelligence, pedigree, success, fiscal responsibility, etc. When women are looking for something short-term, the volume is much lower since they're a lot more discerning about what they want in a man, even though it's on a quickie or short-term basis.
Ruby Slippers Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 maybe...but the self-actualized and successful man doesn't care whether his mate is self-actualized and successful also. In reality he will take the path of least resistance... Well, I was really speaking from the woman's point of view, regarding what the woman should be looking for. Successful people are simply people who are passionate about things and willing to do the work to get what they want. That is attractive to anyone. Every man I've been with has seemed wowed by my ability to set goals and accomplish them, to "hang with the boys" in running my own business and playing in bands and so on, and some of them remarked that previous girlfriends were pretty blah and lazy in comparison, and said that was off-putting. So, it certainly seems to me to be a quality attractive to at least some men.
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