Lessons Learned

[Owl]

What are those specific "internal issues" that you're referring to?

 

How are you "stuck"? Specifically...what do you mean by "stuck"?

[Owl]

Owl I think we have to agree to disagree here. You give a lot of power to the MP and the dynamic that I dont think in most situations is warranted at least not in mine. I think what people keeps anyone in a bad situation is their own issues. The addiction or whatever you want to call it to the A is just a symptom of that.

 

Hmmm...I think I sense some of the disconnect now.

 

That "power" isn't JUST applicable to the MP. Its equally applicable to the OP as well...the MP feels the exact same things here that the OP does.

 

That 'addiction' is IN ADDITION to those existing problems that you're referring to as 'internal'.

 

Its very, very real...and its a seperate thing from those internal ones. And it exists in equal directions between the OP and MP.

 

I'm still curious about what YOU see as the "internal issues" that need to be resolved in your situation that have nothing to do with continued contact. I believe you that they exist...don't take me wrong. I just don't know how you address them WITHOUT addressing the continued contact as well.

[jj33]

Owl I dont really want to get into my own personal issues on a public board and am sure you can appreciate that. But if they didnt exist I wouldnt have had so much trouble getting past the issues with the A.

 

I think we just need to agree to see it differently. I dont see him as the problem. He is who he is a sweet but flawed person. Whether he and I are in contact isnt the issue.

 

The best way I can describe it is the difference between Western medicine and holistic medicine or chinese medicine. In Western medicine you treat the symptom, in TCM you treat the underlying cause. To me my reaction to the A and MM was a symptom. I got out of the affair over a year ago. So he is no longer a factor in anything unless I choose to focus on that. But if I do its just a distraction from all the other things that are wrong in my life.

[Owl]

Well, if you manage to find a way to work through this, as I've said...come back and share your success. You'd have a brand new way for people to use.

[jj33]

If? Please Owl dont doom me to a future where I spend the rest of my life depressed and dejected. I will get through this. I dont have any other choice. And I will do it without total NC because that is not a choice. So it will work itself out.

[tft]

Although its only 8 days since I left my indecisive (s)MM I can't imagine spending a year working with (next to) him without breaking down completely. JJ-how long did it take for you to get over the initial withdrawals? I'm on strict LC (work only) and it makes me mad when I see he's emailed me, and its just work related. When he talks to me like I'm just another colleague. I think I'm okay one minute, then (quietly) storming out our office the next. Although I'm in a well paid enjoyable job, in a very bad economy, I'm thinking of making a big career change. When do you get to the point where you see him, and don't care? Are you there yet?

 

Kudos for not falling back in his arms. I'm nowhere near that yet.

[jj33]

Im embarrassed to say its been well over a year. A year of us first going through withdrawals and then getting along well and each time we get along too well he thinks that is an invitation back to something more.

 

And at this point I lack the energy for it. So I am not a good example. I handled it all very badly. I was OK at first saying look you couldnt handle this. Its not what you want. Its too intense. How will it be different this time? But over time it just got messy so that whenever I see him I just got upset. OK by phone and email but not one on one work meetings.

 

And now finally something has snapped. He is still in love with me but it doesnt matter. None of it matters. It was all a big mistake. We opened Pandora's box and we never should have.

 

We dont work for the same company so we dont see each other often but we have a lot of clients in common so we end up being in contact by email alot. The emails dont bother me. Seeing him in public bothers me and I know it bothers him. We were at something the other night and someone told me he was looking at me from across the room. I hadnt even seen him. It was crowded. But... who cares.

 

So I hope you get past it more quickly than I did. At this point its just ego and disappointment at where I find myself in my life and how it has all turned out. But that is really nothing to do with him. He was just a little blip along the way.

[Mino]

But thats the thing Owl. Its accepting that the MP is a mirror and that the issues are within. If its not the MP it will be someone or something else until in this case I deal with my own demons.

 

So removing him isnt really the issue. Its fixing myself. I have decided it is that simple. Lots of people say things to us or have attitudes that we dont agree with or dont like but getting stuck on them is not their fault or because we have to talk to them sometimes, they are of our own making. he is not the problem. So whether I ever see or talk to him again or not doesnt really matter. I will move on when I fix my issues.

You hit the nail on the head here... Our own demons... its really about changing our beliefs...that is the core.. going back to our belief system and figuring out whats murky and needs changing..The switch will happen when you made this move..I am 100% with you on your thoughts. Having to see mmk while your doing this process helps with you reconizing his demons and pushing you even further on your way...

[Mino]

I'm afraid you've totally lost me now.

 

It sounded to me as though you've already 'moved on'. I thought that you were done with the affair, and no longer "in love" with him, nor did you have any desire for continued interaction between the two of you other than work related.

 

If that's the case...what's left of "your issues"?

 

If that's NOT the case...then I remain very curious on how EXACTLY you plan on "fixing your issues' while still remaining in contact with him. What's your plan? What specific issues are you addressing?

 

I don't know of any other SUCCESSFUL way to "fix your issues" and "move on" and yet still allow him to remain a part of your day to day life.

 

And even when you "fix your issues"...and you "move on"...how does that prevent him from continuing to bombard you with constant attempts to renew the affair?

 

I'm just not understanding here...

Owl , what she is talking about is much much deeper then the plain NC therory. Its changing her beliefs... her fears... DEEP and intensive Work!!

[Mino]

I am done with the affair but I have my own internal psychological issues that keep me stuck. It doesnt matter what he does. I just realized that the other day. He is not the problem. I am the problem. I am damaged and not because of him. Its me. Ive been damaged for a long time. Getting so caught up in this is just a symptom of that damage. He can call everyday and ask to get back together it really wouldnt bother me if I were strong in myself. He is not the problem. He has never been the problem. I have been the problem. Strong people dont get so crushed when someone asks them to participate in things that dont interest them.

 

i dont know how else to explain it.

I have to disagree, strong people DO get crushed too... Dont beat yourself up so much sweetie.. You are on the right track, but this takes time to do the work..

[Penthouse_Suite]

This post is sooo enlightening...

 

I just joined here, as a BW, lurking for many months...

 

Have read and researched all responses....

 

The women that know that they have a life, and MM IS THE INTRUDER on that LIFE, I send strength...as a BW, of a GOOD MAN, please listen....

 

Get on with whatever is going on, and beleive that if "They come back (in a permanent AND UNCOMMITTED) form", than it is meant to be....

 

If they stay, then there is a wonderful person out there who is DYING to be with you.....you have only to GREET THEM.....

[Lonely Lover]

Like it or not, my affair taught me so much.

 

My A has taught me to own up to my mistakes and move on. I am ashamed of my choices, but they were my choices.

 

It taught me humility—that I am capable of hurtful, childish actions, just like everyone else.

 

It taught me courage: to confront the man who once meant the world to me, and to tell him that I was done accepting the hurt he caused me and his family (I’m about 3 months NC!)

 

It taught me that a healthy relationship does not make you cry all the time.

 

It taught me that relationships are supposed to be hard—but not that hard.

 

It taught me that I am capable of loving a man deeply. Granted, the man I gave my heart to didn’t deserve it, but it is important to me that I know I can give love unrestrained and unconditionally.

 

It taught me generosity. My xMM needed so much love, attention, and reassurance. I used to think of myself first; my A taught me how to think of another person before myself. Again, this is a lesson I look forward to using on a deserving individual.

 

My A taught me killer moves in the sack

 

It taught me who I wanted to be. In the past four years I’ve grown from a child into a woman. I am not yet the woman I really want to be, but I’m getting there. My MM helped show me who that woman is (yeah, mostly by pointing out my flaws, but still, it was a lesson learned).

 

I learned who was a true friend—only a few friends stood by me through the 4 years of my A, but those who did are like family to me now.

 

Most importantly, it taught me compassion—taught me to withhold judgment until I really know a situation, to feel empathy for someone caught in a bad situation, rather than condemning her for getting into it.

 

Don't get me wrong; I regret the A, and I am still very angry at my xMM for putting me in the situation. But I refuse to let his memory diminish my growth over the last four years.

[jj33]

Thanks Mino for understanding it is much deeper than NC it is a total change in perspective and owning the reasons for one's behavior and reactions to things rather than saying its all about the WS - its almost never all about the other person. In 99% of the cases its about us.

 

And Lonely that was very moving and I would agree with alot of what you said. But I am not angry at MM. I am disappointed in certain things. But I think I have a new understanding.

 

I spoke with him today and it was the first time in a long time that I was back to my old self. Confident, personable but without the old emotional fog that would overcome me when I spoke to him. Thank God. Its been such a long long time getting to this point.

 

Owl its a change in perspective. Thats the only way I can put it. Noone makes you angry. You allow yourself to react that way. We have not been in a relationship for some time so the continued reaction to him after such a long time is not appropriate.

 

NC is important when you first end something. Everyone needs a time out to cool off and readjust their point of view. But after a significant amount of time has lapsed if its still a problem, then its not something in my view that NC is going to fix. Its a much deeper issue than that.

[Owl]

Believe it or not, I get what you're saying about the deeper issues, don't take me wrong.

 

I get that its about truly making changes in how you see things...how you feel about things.

 

A very real part of healing after emotional trauma is exactly this kind of step.

 

You can do this and completely get to a point where he doesn't matter...at all.

 

The issue is...he won't get to that point. HE won't "move on". And since he's still IN your life...regardless of how you FEEL, he's still going to have impact on your life. And given his unrequited love...it'll be a massively negative impact.

 

The problem isn't just how you feel about him...its about the fact that he still has impact on your life.

 

How long until his unreturned love turns to hate? Until he begins poisoning your potential customers by dropping reasons for them to avoid doing business with you? What happens when he turns from helping you in this field to hurting you?

 

I know you've seen this before...how quickly strong positive emotions turn into strong negative ones. And the next thing you know, the man you were madly in love with has turned into the one person who hates you the most.

 

Regardless...I do completely wish you well. And I've meant what I've said...post to us how you work through all of this. I don't know how you succeed without removing him from the picture...so seeing your success story will teach me something new.

[jj33]

Youre entitled to feel that way Owl. I disagree for many reasons.

 

First you cant just walk away from your life because something upsets you. You need to come to terms with it and own the behavior and your reactions. That is on me. It is not about him.

 

Second it gives the other person WAY too much power and continues to make them the focal point. Noone tortures themself over a relationship that has been over for ages the way I did if they have it all together.

 

I think we need to simply agree to disagree

[jj33]

Owl I do wish you hadnt posted that about love turning into hate. THat is my worst fear. But I have to hope that never happens. I feel like I have made a success of it. I now have a new perspective. its a simple as that.

[Owl]

Its interesting that you view my advice as "walking away from life".

 

Its not.

 

Its about taking CONTROL of your situation, and preventing someone else from having all the control. It IS about "owning" the situation...not "hoping" that things will go the way you want it to go.

 

I'm sorry if my comments about love turning to hate upset or offend you.

 

Here's the thing...I don't think you're "owning" the situation. I think you're "hoping" things will turn out the way that you want them, but you're afraid to take any action to ensure that they do.

 

Honestly, your last comment about your fear of this happening strikes me that you've got your head buried in the sand...you're afraid this is what will happen, but you're also afraid of taking any action that might force any kind of change in the situation.

 

I hope that it doesn't happen too...but I think you'd be better off working to PREVENT it from happening in some fashion rather than hope that it doesn't.

 

We can agree to disagree if you like. If you prefer, I'll no longer post to your threads. Just say the word...I'm not intending to offend...I'm honestly offering the best advice I know.

[wantmore]

Lonely Lover...your post is exactly how I feel when I was done....finally!

 

I will just say that my A ended 3 yrs ago and for a while we tried to remain friends...it was just continued torture for me. When we went with no contact I regained my life and most importantly my heart. I may not ever give my heart away again but he doesn't own it any longer. Sometimes I occasionally and definately accidently run into him and I realize that if I saw him often or we kept intouch I would fall right back into the pain. I refuse to do that to myself.

 

I wish you strengh and the best!

[Awakening]

I seriously considered quitting my job at the end of my 4 year relationship with MM.

 

However, I decided to stay put. Why should I leave a job that I love with a great company just because I might have to deal with my ex on a professional level from time to time?

 

I detached. My career is much more important than him.

[jj33]

Sorry Owl I know you mean well we just do see this differently. If he hates me one day he does. I hope that never happens. He knows how I feel about him. I love him and want the best for him. I hope he is happy with his choices. Who knows he may even be seeing someone else. I wouldnt know at this point.

 

He wanted me to be over the A and to be able to go back to it on a casual basis. So he is not pining away for me. Or if he is, he isnt admitting to it. But its not like I dont like him. I love him. He knows that. But I wont be OW anymore. That being the case, I see no reason for him to hate me. If he ever does I will have to deal with it at the time but its not something I expect will ever happen. And it would be silly for me to jeopardize what is a very strong working relationship out of fear that he may one day decide that he hates me. It would become a self fulfilling prophecy.

[jj33]

Owl you have made me think about this more and I thank you for that. What hit me over the last few days and helped me to change my perspective is that he was never as invested in this in the same way that I was.

 

Yes he loves me and at some point was in love with me. Maybe still is. But he is very disciplined and never allowed himself to cross a certain line. He never wanted to get so involved that it would lead to him feeling he had to leave his M because he has a wonderful llife that he loves. And when it got to that point that it did, and he started thinking about leaving the marriage, the A ended. So his boundaries are very clear. I dont know why he keeps coming back. I used to think it was because he was still in love with me.

 

But more than that I think its because he does love me but not enough to make real room for me in his life. He likes the fact that I care deeply for him since his wife clearly doesnt. And even if he got involved with someone new I dont think he would want to lose that. I dont think he would ever allow himself to get so close to someone in an A again. He doesnt like feeling that he may want to change his life.

 

We stopped seeing each other because the one who suffered the unrequited love was me. He may one day become more indifferent to me, and more objective and favor me less at work, but he would never have any reason to hate me.

 

He respects and admire me greatly. I am very different from the type of people he knows, particularly the women he has known. And he is one of the few people I have ever known who doesnt gossip, doesnt say a bad word about anyone unless richly deserved. He is above all in business, a gentleman.

 

So he if he suffered a broken heart it was because he couldnt allow himself to make the room in his life for what he wanted. It isnt because I rebuffed him. That is not the dynamic between us. He cant deal with the intensity of the emotions that existed in the A. He felt it threatened his way of life because if he succumbed to it, it would mean the end of his life as he knows it. But it took many months for me to say no I would no longer be the OW. That didnt happen until shortly before I joined LS.

 

I was willing to go back to it for a long time if we were able to carve out more time for ourselves and more of a life parallel to his marriage. But he wasnt able to do that. So in the end we didnt want the same thing.

 

So might he eventually get angry that I wont do things his way? I dont think so. I think knowing that he has a special place in my heart will be enough. He doesnt want me to be alone forever waiting for him to find time in his busy schedule to see me.

 

It would be different if I was telling him he was an awful person (been there done that) but we have moved past that. So I think it will be OK.

 

Realizing that I would never be happy with someone who was not willing to invest more in the relationship is what has really shifted things for me in the past week or so.

 

That and being kinder to him about his view of the situation. And understanding that he doesnt do what he does to hurt me or disrepect me, he just comes at the whole thing from another perspective. And I come across as being very very tough and strong and independent and he hadnt realized how much the aftermath of the whole situation was hurting me.

 

We no longer want the same thing. I no longer want to be the OW. I used to think (again months ago) that if he left we would have a shot, but now i am not so sure. So really there is no reason to look at him and miss anything. Neither of us wants to go back to the past (for different reasons; I want more he wants less). And there is no future. So we are really mourning a ghost.

 

And I am not sure he is even mourning. He had fun. He wants to have fun again. And now I am not mourning. I still dont really want to hear about his marriage, but I think that is normal. I also dont want to know if he starts seeing anyone new, tho I simply assume he is or will be in due course. It is how he has chosen to live his life.

 

As I said I have a lot to sort out in my own life but none of that has anything to do with him. I dont know what to say. I am not sure what you expect me to post about how I do this there is nothing to do except let him be and get on with what I need to do for myself. Deal with my anxiety about my life and my issues and not let that be a diversion. Sometimes its easier to focus on other people and other things rather than confronting the really scary issues in our own lives. And I need to face things and fix them.

[woe_is_me]

Lesson I learned...1. Never fall for a man who isn't single.

2. Separated does not mean divorced.

 

very much hearing you Shannon...

 

i have learned that... a separated man can have just as many hang ups, if not way more ..than a married man ..

 

i don't think i have time and/or patience for either..

 

and single men w/o children can have just as many issues..if not more..than divorced ink is dry men..

 

i don't think it matters what a guy has been through .. if he doesn't understand you and can't be there for you then he's not worth one second of your time and you should never ever sell yourself short

 

i wish this wasnt my user name but it is and its indicative of how pathetic one can get when they think that someone who cant give them anything...is everything...

 

x mm has said he will be in touch from time to time..lol he has another thing coming... thats for sure.. i don't even think i 'like' him anymore..

 

i dont really know why im here but..youre all helping me and in return im hopefully helping you.. xox

[woe_is_me]

how dare he just disappear and re appear over the course of seven years

 

and i honestly hope that the only reasons he leaves the marriage (but he wont thats his castle and his wifes castle its down to an ugly battle of wills and probably has been for years and will be for years to come).. i hope the only reasons he leaves are for his own and not anything to do with me because..he's done me a favor by doing this... the more he's there now..the less im going to want him ..how could or would i trust him .. LOL!!

 

im so glad i can laugh now and think how did i ever get involved in that:o

 

i cant imagine being old gray and 70 and STILL waiting ..

 

p.s there are many men who you might just like dying to treat you properly if you so deserve... you just have to shop around and be VERY selective

[Owl]

JJ, what I got out of you last post was that you don't see a need to change anything about your current situation.

 

You're content with where things are at, and are reasonably confidant that there will be no further repercussions or issues that are likely to arise as a result of the affair and/or the end of the affair.

 

Fair enough. If that's where everything is at, then there's no action to be taken, and no reason to do anything.

 

Good luck to you.

[jj33]

Thanks Owl. No there are no real repurcussions except that he doesnt invite me to certain things because its not always comfortable for us to be around each other in social situations. So I miss out on certain things that I had access to when there was still "hope". But that wouldnt change with total NC.

 

He has a fabulous full life. I dont really figure in it other than as a resource for business now that there is nothing left to pursue personally. So he has no reason to hate me. Indifference is far more likely.