Lessons Learned

[jj33]

I am looking at the amount of time I wasted with MM and after and what a waste it all was. Perhaps one of the biggest mistakes of my life.

 

And I am trying to figure out what lesson I learned from it. The only thing I can think of is that the option priority thing that is in WSs tag line.

 

There were many good times but the pain far outweighed them. And the wasted time is something I will never get back. I know its not like that for everyone and I am glad for those for whom it works out.

 

I hate that he still thinks I am an option. I am not. Its been very volatile lately having to explain to him that he cant keep coming back and asking. He says he understands and "hasnt done that in a few weeks". Big fing deal.

 

Its exhausting. And such a disappointment to have someone you love so much treat you like you are an option. Im very depressed about the whole thing.

 

And its so maddening that his life seems to continue seemlessly and yet it still bothers me so much. And he doesnt understand that everytime he tries to come back it just opens up all the hurt and anger all over again. If he would just stick to business it would be fine. But the rest has got to stop. It just too painful. I talked to him about it again the other day. I hope he gets it now. He seemed to but then he always seems to and then a few months later same thing again...

 

Im just venting. Thanks for listening.

[Shannon2008]

This the advice I got from the posters here regarding the same thing..and it's really simple.."he keeps coming back because you let him"

I'm not letting mine ever again....even if it kills me, even if I miss him...never.

 

Lesson I learned...1. Never fall for a man who isn't single.

2. Separated does not mean divorced.

[wildsoul]

Although I'm not done with my R yet, I will say that I agree about the lesson.

 

Only once before did I date someone who was technically attached. He was in a polyamorous R. I even went to lunch w/ her. It was all above board. After 3 months, it was getting painful. Broke my heart but firmly realized I'm not cut out for such complications.

 

Going into my current R, I made a decision to proceed anyway. Yeah yeah--there were lots of justifications. But to bottom line it: this dynamic is really hard. Worth it? Maybe. Will it be worth staying in? Dunno. Could get worse, or could get better.

 

I can tell you this, I won't do it again with someone else. Too damn hard. If the person who is entangled wants me that damn bad, let him do all the painful work! (hmmm...not a bad policy for my current situation either. maybe I should think about that some more!)

[jj33]

Shannon you obviously havent read any of my old posts I have not let him come back. So I do not "let him". But when someone is sitting in your office and ends a business meeting by asking if you can go back to the way things were - that is not letting them back in that is just saying no.

[norajane]

My lesson learned: stop getting involved with unavailable men. That's MY issue to sort through if I ever want to find the kind of love I say I want.

[jj33]

Me too NJ I find myself torturing myself at the moment thinking that it was me. That if he will leave for someone else but not me. That he will leave for the next one. I dont know how to turn it off. It just keeps going round and round in my head. I knnow if thats true then it only means it wasnt meant to be. But it doesnt make it any easier at the moment.

[norajane]

Me too NJ I find myself torturing myself at the moment thinking that it was me. That if he will leave for someone else but not me. That he will leave for the next one. I dont know how to turn it off. It just keeps going round and round in my head. I knnow if thats true then it only means it wasnt meant to be. But it doesnt make it any easier at the moment.

 

It helps if you can get it out of your head that he was perfect for you, or is the only guy who could possibly make you happy, or that he's the one who make you the happiest. He's just a man, one man out of many. A lying, cheating, deceptive man to boot.

 

The question of him leaving for someone else is moot. That's not the real issue, is it? The issue is that you allowed yourself to fall for someone who is already married, and went against your better judgment.

[Ronni_W]

That if he will leave for someone else but not me. ... I knnow if thats true then it only means it wasnt meant to be. But it doesnt make it any easier at the moment.

Hugs, JJ.

I know what you mean -- when the head and the heart start to get into conflict it can be painful, and confusing, and downright traumatic, can it not?

Hang in there!

[frannie]

Me too NJ I find myself torturing myself at the moment thinking that it was me. That if he will leave for someone else but not me. That he will leave for the next one. I dont know how to turn it off. It just keeps going round and round in my head. I knnow if thats true then it only means it wasnt meant to be. But it doesnt make it any easier at the moment.

 

Does it help to think that whether he'll leave or not, or the timing of that, isn't or shouldn't be to do with who is 'waiting' on the outside? I mean, the way I look at it is that people leave their marriages when the marriage is no longer workable or desirable for one or both parties. That may or may not coincide with someone waiting on the outside.

 

If you look around most infidelity forums you can see that most (all?) of the waverers are really tied up with what they're leaving rather than what they have waiting on the outside. It doesn't mean that the OP is irrelevant per se, but that what's truly influential is the viability of the M.

 

And I think that's good, really. Because you don't want to be in the position that the person left 'for' you or even 'because of' you. That's far too much pressure on an individual and a relationship (imho). And in addition, do you really want a man who ups and leaves one situation so easily, because he 'fell in love' with someone else? Because if so, what happens if the tables are turned? Following your heart is great in theory... but you don't want someone for whom that is their only compass.

[jj33]

Frannie I couldnt agree with you more. I explained to him many times that whether he remained married was between him and his W that noone leaves for another person they leave for themselves and that it really wasnt my business. All I could do was to make decisions for myself as to whether I wanted to be with a married man but I had no voice in whether he left.

 

The thing is he wrestled very strongly with leaving when we were together and to some extent tho we no longer discuss it, reading between the lines from things he says I think he still does. He doesnt want to leave the greater family structure and the institution of the marriage but a part of me thinks that if the "right" person came along it would tip the balance for him. Hes in a self made hell of having a superficially wonderful life with a roomate who doesnt love him as a man and has not for man years.

 

That is his problem not mine. At the moment I think I am just so angry at myself for not having looked after myself better and having stayed in the situation for so long.

 

And every time I think of him with someone else or he makes a reference to something (even things that are objectively benign) it reminds me of my lack of judgment. I think I am just not good at relationships. I screwed it all up. Not so much with a future with him, that is besides the point but I am so disappointed in the way I handled the situation.

 

And when I see him I fall into an emotional fog where I just go blank overwhelmed by the mixed feelings. I am trying to take a kinder approach with him as I know he has his own issues with the whole thing and we do have our mutual clients to service so we need to get on with it.

 

When I still believed we had a shot at a future together (many months ago) I used to worry about the leaving - that his life would be so different and he would lose so much of his lifestyle that it would be a huge pressure on our relationship. It made me so sad to think that he would leave the only life he has ever known but of course he would only do that if he wanted to. But I am rambling. I dont know the whole thing is so messed up. I wish I could just go away from work from home, from everything for a few weeks and just clear my head but there is no time for that.

 

But something has shifted in me. I used to look back and cherish what we shared even if it wasnt ever meant to be anything more. Now I look back and wish it had never happened. I hope that changes it makes it hard to deal with him and is very unfair to him. I think there must be something wrong with me. We havent been together in over a year. I would go to IC but I dont know of anything that they could say to me except get over it - youve been apart for a year you need to banish those thoughts from your head so what you made a mistake stop beating yourself up over it. But I havent met anyone else and even if I did I am not sure how I would trust the situation.

 

I am not naturally a trusting person. the biggest complaint people had in the past was that I was open but hard to get close to. That I never really opened up past a certain level. This time I did. It would take alot for me to do that again. Maybe what I learned is not to make excuses for people. Our relatoinship could have been a lot different. But it wasnt. It could have been one of those things that went on for years parallel to his marriage and I would have been happy with that. But it all just became a mess. Its hard to describe.

[norajane]

I would go to IC but I dont know of anything that they could say to me except get over it - youve been apart for a year you need to banish those thoughts from your head so what you made a mistake stop beating yourself up over it. But I havent met anyone else and even if I did I am not sure how I would trust the situation.

 

I am not naturally a trusting person. the biggest complaint people had in the past was that I was open but hard to get close to. That I never really opened up past a certain level. This time I did. It would take alot for me to do that again. Maybe what I learned is not to make excuses for people. Our relatoinship could have been a lot different. But it wasnt. It could have been one of those things that went on for years parallel to his marriage and I would have been happy with that. But it all just became a mess. Its hard to describe.

 

IC isn't about telling you to get over it. It's about exploring what's going on inside you so you can identify why you have trust issues, why you're open only to a point, why you even think you would have been ok carrying on a parallel relationship for years...that sounds like intimacy issues (or at least it sounds like MY intimacy issues. )

 

Sorting through that stuff and working through it could help you in your next relationship, in choosing better situations to begin with, and in getting out of bad ones faster.

[BrotherD]

Sorting through that stuff and working through it could help you in your next relationship, in choosing better situations to begin with, and in getting out of bad ones faster.

 

If we learn this one thing only from our foray in to the world of EMR's or ANY realtionship it was worth the strife...

 

Let's use the analogy of a slide projector shall we?

 

Our lives are like a "carousel of celuloid slides..."

 

As we click through the images from one to the next, that's a natural progression and healthy...

 

When we get stuck on one "slide" and the celluloid starts to melt and distort, that's where the problems begin...

 

So yes, click to the next picture. I have wasted years looked at melting celuloid!

 

What a gift to be able to react quickly, recover quickly and get to the next "slide..."

 

Hope the analogy wasnt too corny...

 

BroD

[frannie]

At the moment I think I am just so angry at myself for not having looked after myself better and having stayed in the situation for so long.

 

And every time I think of him with someone else or he makes a reference to something (even things that are objectively benign) it reminds me of my lack of judgment. I think I am just not good at relationships. I screwed it all up. Not so much with a future with him, that is besides the point but I am so disappointed in the way I handled the situation.

 

I think you're being really hard on yourself here. Would you say that to someone else who had made similar mistakes, or would you be gentler with them? Because I've made the same mistakes!! I could have written a lot of your post, actually. I've not seen my MM for a year either, apart from two unplanned meetings, but we still talk. He still talks about wanting an out. But he's similarly stuck.

 

Like you say, that's their problem.

 

What you said in your OP about being treated as 'an option'. Yep. How do you get round that? It seems to me that this is the biggest issue in EMAs. The whole blinking OPTION thing

 

 

ETA: Then again I'm wondering if it's worse to feel like you're some kind of 'option', or be so indecisive that you can't make a flaming decision..??

[2sure]

But something has shifted in me. I used to look back and cherish what we shared even if it wasnt ever meant to be anything more. Now I look back and wish it had never happened.

 

Regret.

 

We all have some regrets. Things we cannot change but wish we could. An Inevitable part of life. As I have grown older, I find some of the things I used to carry around as regrets - have diminished. Maybe I have forgiven myself (or the person I was) some of them.

 

I have considered myself at times, to have too much baggage. Made too many bad choices. It was my H that pointed out to me that if we could go back and change things - we wouldnt be the same person we are today.

 

But I get what is frustrating you here: What is the lesson??

Like you, I find forgiving myself easier if only I can say I learned something...took something away from an experience. You have. Look past the time and past the whole MM thing. There is something there I'm sure. When I left a previous relationship with a MM (4 years) ... I realized I was looking for what he had, a man similar to him, just not him. It helped me visualize the direction I wanted my life to go in.

 

So, I did take something away from the experience. Something good I think. Look further for your lesson. Its there.

[Owl]

JJ, I know that you've felt that your example is a good demonstration that NC isn't a requirement for personal recovery...we've discussed this before.

 

But what I see here is simply more proof of WHY NC IS A REQUIREMENT FOR PERSONAL RECOVERY.

 

Because HE hasn't moved on...and he hasn't moved on because he feels that you are still an option...and you will REMAIN an option for him for as long as the two of you continue to have contact.

 

You're still in this boat...and still needing to vent about it...because its NOT OVER YET.

 

I believe you that you're done with the affair...don't take me wrong.

 

But the situation isn't over.

[frannie]

JJ, I know that you've felt that your example is a good demonstration that NC isn't a requirement for personal recovery...we've discussed this before.

 

But what I see here is simply more proof of WHY NC IS A REQUIREMENT FOR PERSONAL RECOVERY.

 

Because HE hasn't moved on...and he hasn't moved on because he feels that you are still an option...and you will REMAIN an option for him for as long as the two of you continue to have contact.

 

You're still in this boat...and still needing to vent about it...because its NOT OVER YET.

 

I believe you that you're done with the affair...don't take me wrong.

 

But the situation isn't over.

 

But would it be any more over if there were NC..?

 

I said to jj that I was in the same boat, or similar. I actually feel far closer to it being OVER for me now that MM and I are back in contact than all those months of NC. Why? Because NC can acually make you forget all the annoying, cyclical, not-going-to-work-out things about them. You can get to the point (as I did) where your counsellor is saying to you... um you know you're eulogising the past and making it better than it was. SOMETIMES it is better to be faced with the truth than running away and making it better than it was.

 

NC can actually perpetuate the hope. It doesn't necessarily kill it stone dead.

 

Killing it stone dead is preferable, however that happens (and whether that's better for the marriage, the BS or the WS or anyone else). We're talking here about how to end things for the OW, no one else. And if that requires more or ongoing contact, then so be it in my opinion.

[Owl]

But would it be any more over if there were NC..?

 

I said to jj that I was in the same boat, or similar. I actually feel far closer to it being OVER for me now that MM and I are back in contact than all those months of NC. Why? Because NC can acually make you forget all the annoying, cyclical, not-going-to-work-out things about them. You can get to the point (as I did) where your counsellor is saying to you... um you know you're eulogising the past and making it better than it was. SOMETIMES it is better to be faced with the truth than running away and making it better than it was.

 

NC can actually perpetuate the hope. It doesn't necessarily kill it stone dead.

 

Killing it stone dead is preferable, however that happens (and whether that's better for the marriage, the BS or the WS or anyone else). We're talking here about how to end things for the OW, no one else. And if that requires more or ongoing contact, then so be it in my opinion.

 

It doesn't matter if NC perpetuates the hope...

 

SHE doesn't have any desire to continue the relationship with him...she's doing so SOLELY because she doesn't want it to impact her business situation.

 

She doesn't have any hope to perpetuate.

 

The only "hope" here is on his side...and frankly, WHO CARES if that perpetuates or not, as long as it removes him from her life, and gives HER peace?

 

My recommendation for NC here has NOTHING to do with his marriage or engagement...its got everything to do with the OP getting peace.

 

Its the ongoing contact (and him trying to resume the affair every few weeks as a result) that's PREVENTING her from getting that peace.

[jj33]

You are right in part Owl but its simply not possible to stop talking to him unless I changed my entire profession. I work in a very small industry of which he is the kingpin. Not possible. Not when we have so many clients in common. So that is not going to happen.

 

But after last week I dont care anymore. I have reached the end of being upset with him. I dont know why but something snapped in me. And I just dont care.

 

The problem lies with me. Not him. As you say who cares what he says. I steer my own course and its not with him. Its my problem with my life and my issues that makes me overwhelmingly upset everytime I see him and am faced with the reminder of the past.

 

He is a mirror for my own issues. And I have to deal with them. if its not him being a mirror it will be someone else. So I have to find my way and stop blaming it on the fact that he said this or he did that. hes one confused married man. And he is not my problem. I am my problem and I have to get to grips with things.

 

I think that is true of many people mooning over someone who is unavailable whether they are married, lost in space or whatever. Its past time for me to move on.

[Owl]

You are right in part Owl but its simply not possible to stop talking to him unless I changed my entire profession. I work in a very small industry of which he is the kingpin. Not possible. Not when we have so many clients in common. So that is not going to happen.

 

But after last week I dont care anymore. I have reached the end of being upset with him. I dont know why but something snapped in me. And I just dont care.

 

The problem lies with me. Not him. As you say who cares what he says. I steer my own course and its not with him. Its my problem with my life and my issues that makes me overwhelmingly upset everytime I see him and am faced with the reminder of the past.

 

He is a mirror for my own issues. And I have to deal with them. if its not him being a mirror it will be someone else. So I have to find my way and stop blaming it on the fact that he said this or he did that. hes one confused married man. And he is not my problem. I am my problem and I have to get to grips with things.

 

I think that is true of many people mooning over someone who is unavailable whether they are married, lost in space or whatever. Its past time for me to move on.

 

Actually JJ, I think we both are in complete agreemant on this.

 

The only issue that I personally see is that I have absolutely no idea on how you "move on" without removing him from the equation.

 

When you do...please post here and share with us, because you'll provide some valuable input for others in similar circumstances.

[jj33]

But thats the thing Owl. Its accepting that the MP is a mirror and that the issues are within. If its not the MP it will be someone or something else until in this case I deal with my own demons.

 

So removing him isnt really the issue. Its fixing myself. I have decided it is that simple. Lots of people say things to us or have attitudes that we dont agree with or dont like but getting stuck on them is not their fault or because we have to talk to them sometimes, they are of our own making. he is not the problem. So whether I ever see or talk to him again or not doesnt really matter. I will move on when I fix my issues.

[wildsoul]

Killing it stone dead is preferable, however that happens (and whether that's better for the marriage, the BS or the WS or anyone else). We're talking here about how to end things for the OW, no one else. And if that requires more or ongoing contact, then so be it in my opinion.

There's no "right way" to be done.

 

Compare this to quitting smoking. For many people, cold turkey is the best way. But even for most of the people who finally succeed that way, they didn't quit on their first try. Alternatively, some people try nicotene patches, others do acupuncture or hypnosis, some taking up eating. All of these things work, but the smoker only is only a non-smoker when all of the desire is gone. There IS a point when a former smoker is disgusted and can't fathom how they could ever smoke.

 

Ending a difficult R is even more complex. Sure, there might be an addictive thing going on. But not all R's are as patently toxic as a drug. And our emotional systems are so much more complicated than our bodies. Some R's are done in short order. Others take years. There are times when NC is the very best medicine! But it's not a panacea either.

 

JJ, you might do well to remember that you're still grieving. Being upset at where you sold yourself short can be an awakening of sorts. Just don't get stuck there. I'm not really worried that you will. But I do think it's worth noting that you're going through another phase of healing right now. It will take as long as it takes.

 

I think it would be good for you to move towards forgiving yourself. You can't really skip over the phase you're in now, which seems to be admitting to yourself that it was a mistake. Next comes forgiving yourself for the mistake. Maybe it feels like you didn't do your best to protect yourself or choose well. Maybe some part of you knew better. But let's face it: your intention was good, even if the results reveal that this choice wasn't as good for you as you hoped. (((hugs)))

[jj33]

Thanks. I did a terrible job of taking care of myself. Its just so many things I feel like i just set myself back two years. I didnt fix the things that I wanted to fix 2 years ago and well he doesnt really matter. He is not a part of the equation. Its just a lot of time wasted on heartache.

[Owl]

But thats the thing Owl. Its accepting that the MP is a mirror and that the issues are within. If its not the MP it will be someone or something else until in this case I deal with my own demons.

 

So removing him isnt really the issue. Its fixing myself. I have decided it is that simple. Lots of people say things to us or have attitudes that we dont agree with or dont like but getting stuck on them is not their fault or because we have to talk to them sometimes, they are of our own making. he is not the problem. So whether I ever see or talk to him again or not doesnt really matter. I will move on when I fix my issues.

 

I'm afraid you've totally lost me now.

 

It sounded to me as though you've already 'moved on'. I thought that you were done with the affair, and no longer "in love" with him, nor did you have any desire for continued interaction between the two of you other than work related.

 

If that's the case...what's left of "your issues"?

 

If that's NOT the case...then I remain very curious on how EXACTLY you plan on "fixing your issues' while still remaining in contact with him. What's your plan? What specific issues are you addressing?

 

I don't know of any other SUCCESSFUL way to "fix your issues" and "move on" and yet still allow him to remain a part of your day to day life.

 

And even when you "fix your issues"...and you "move on"...how does that prevent him from continuing to bombard you with constant attempts to renew the affair?

 

I'm just not understanding here...

[jj33]

I am done with the affair but I have my own internal psychological issues that keep me stuck. It doesnt matter what he does. I just realized that the other day. He is not the problem. I am the problem. I am damaged and not because of him. Its me. Ive been damaged for a long time. Getting so caught up in this is just a symptom of that damage. He can call everyday and ask to get back together it really wouldnt bother me if I were strong in myself. He is not the problem. He has never been the problem. I have been the problem. Strong people dont get so crushed when someone asks them to participate in things that dont interest them.

 

i dont know how else to explain it.

[jj33]

Owl I think we have to agree to disagree here. You give a lot of power to the MP and the dynamic that I dont think in most situations is warranted at least not in mine. I think what people keeps anyone in a bad situation is their own issues. The addiction or whatever you want to call it to the A is just a symptom of that.