The fine line of treating women

[kashmir]

I read a post on here and it got me thinking about something.

 

I've been looking into dating advice for a bit now, and it always stressed for guys NOT to be the nice guy doormat type. It says how guys should be busy and give a girl enough attention, but not to go out of his way to do something for her.

 

I understand this, but I never fully agreed with it. If there's a girl I like, I WANT to treat her special. I WANT her to know that I see something in her and want to spend time with her and treat her nice. People may call me a doormat or desperate, but think about what the alternative is...PRETENDING to be this self-important guy who has a ton of options when it comes to girls. Fact is, I hardly ever have options, and when one comes around, I'd like to be honest with myself and the girl.

 

So far though, I really haven't done this because I've been advised against it. People have told me to be busy and not treat a girl special until later. I've always been indifferent to girls I liked and not treated them any different...just asked them out and pretty much forgot about them or treated them like I would with any other person. I am a busy guy...very busy, so it's not like I'd be lying, but I'm efficient and I get my work and obligations done quickly so even on my busiest days I have hours to spare. Usually I fill this time up with writing, reading for pleasure, playing/listening to music, or doing something stupid or dangerous. Sometimes though, I'd like for a girl to fill up some of that free time.

 

Anyway, I'm wondering where the line is between something that's sweet and thoughtful and something that's the sign of a doormat.

 

I was talking to this girl the other day, and she said how some girl on the team commented on this one guy who drives his sister to practice every single day, saying that someone needs to date that...ie they admire him. Things like this make me question the whole jerks get the girls and nice guys finish last thing.

[PrincessPeach]

... Usually I fill this time up with writing, reading for pleasure, playing/listening to music, or doing something stupid or dangerous. Sometimes though, I'd like for a girl to fill up some of that free time.

 

Being passionate and taking time regularly to maintain hobbies is a way of being busy. Don't spend less time doing the things you enjoy doing because of a romantic interest. If they started liking you when you were doing these things regularly, we like you to keep doing them. It's somewhat a sign of stability. Don't change what you do for anyone but yourself.

 

I was talking to this girl the other day, and she said how some girl on the team commented on this one guy who drives his sister to practice every single day, saying that someone needs to date that...ie they admire him. Things like this make me question the whole jerks get the girls and nice guys finish last thing.

 

Are any of the girls dating that guy? No. They say that someone should, but they aren't going to be the ones to step up themselves.

 

What girls say we like and admire are not always what we like or admire. A lot of the time we really have no idea what we truly like. We don't go for the jerk because he is a jerk, we go for him because there is more manliness there than in the "nice guy." The "nice guy" doesn't usually show a lot of confidence, won't think for himself (he thinks only about the girl) and is afraid to be a little sexual from time to time.

 

If a guy is going out of his way for me or always trying to find out what I like or want to do then I don't get to ever learn anything about who he is. And personally I like it when my man is a little horny from time to time (and shows it), as long as he can control himself .

 

The "jerk" and "nice guy" are stereotypes. You need to pull away certain aspects from the stereotype that are and aren't attractive to women.

 

Bring her into your life, don't try to fit yourself into hers unless she brings you there. That's like inviting yourself over to some one else's party; it shouldn't be done. Your life is your party, feel free to invite her to it. Her life is her party, don't go over to it uninvited. Also she might find your party more fun than her own, so don't be disappointed if she doesn't get around to inviting you to her party for a while if she likes it at yours.

[carhill]

The simple rule is:

 

You can believe what a woman says she likes in a man. She's speaking true words. However, what she is attracted to in a man is an entirely different matter.

 

When it comes to love, and especially attraction, all that matters is a woman's actions. Ignore her words. Example: She tells you she loves you and flirts with your best friend. Ummmm.....actions Another example: She says you're "more than friends" and yet never seems to make time for you. Yes, that's right....actions.

 

Lastly....she says you're a "nice guy".....bzzzzt! wrong! Words...you're now in the friend-zone

[Trialbyfire]

I was talking to this girl the other day, and she said how some girl on the team commented on this one guy who drives his sister to practice every single day, saying that someone needs to date that...ie they admire him. Things like this make me question the whole jerks get the girls and nice guys finish last thing.

You should be questioning this attitude. The difficulty is that when girls are young, which is the age category you're targeting, they haven't learned that jerks are just that...jerks and a self-represented nice guy, is rarely that nice.

 

Be yourself, play no games or at least hurtful games (light, flirty games can be fun) and most of all, relax and enjoy the dating experiences and potentially the relationship to follow.

 

Girls do like to feel special so if you put in extra effort in reasonable moderation, it's appreciated and admired. If you don't bother doing so and treat her like crap, sooner or later any girl with reasonable self-esteem, is going to walk. By the same token, if you pretend to be someone you're not at the beginning being the perfect guy, then change part way, making no effort, the girl's going to walk again.

 

Some girls will talk to each other about their experiences with a certain guy. We tell each other if we're being treated well or not, if asked. Guys gain the reputation of "stay away from him" or "great guy", so beware.

[alphamale]

i would agree with carhill and add that a man needs to treat a woman like anyone else. if she's good then you treat her good, if she's acting bad then you call her out and don't take her crap.

 

#1 is to always keep your self-respect as a man and then she will respect you. once you lose her respect then you lose her

[carhill]

The respect part is where a male who otherwise trends to the sensitive side needs to be especially careful in selecting a mate who views sensitivity and compassion as strong traits in a man rather than weaknesses. Even with appropriate boundaries in place (like alphamale mentioned) , a woman can and will lose attraction for a man whom in her view is not strong, regardless of reality.

 

On the other side, and I can use my experience as an example, I lost attraction for my wife mainly because she became distant and unemotional, because I value a woman's ability to be intimate and emotionally close and supportive, yet still her own independent person. In my view, these are among her "strengths" which cause me to find her attractive.

 

IMO, when words and observed attractions match and are compatible, a healthy relationship can result. Otherwise...watch out

[Ruby Slippers]

I think you should be yourself. In the relationship in which I felt most closely bonded to the guy, we really couldn't get enough of each other. We did sometimes spend time apart doing our own things, and I never felt smothered, but everything we did (even going to the freaking grocery store!) was totally a blast. We were like peanut butter and chocolate, and had so much fun together. I never once got tired of his company.

 

The relationship didn't work out because of external factors (his crazy and interfering family), but I don't regret a moment of time we spent together.

[kashmir]

Hmm, good responses.

 

I've always thought I've been doing something wrong. From what I hear, when girls like you, they'll take initiative call you or at least let you know the opportunity to spend time with them is open, even in the smallest ways. I've only gotten that from girls with boyfriends, so it was clear they were just doing it out of friendliness...but no other girl has ever done that with me.

 

I brought up the jerk thing because recently I think I've been too much of a jerk, to the point where I really hurt and annoyed a few groups of girls. What I don't like is I WAS being myself at the time. I didn't think I was being a jerk, I was just acting natural. I look back now and wonder what made me act in such a way. I'd much rather maintain friendly relations with girls than sever those relations for some short-term benefits. Being the reserve quiet guy who seemed to be sweet and friendly behind his silence worked a lot better for me, but for whatever reason I changed that and ruined what I had.

 

I find myself making fun of people a lot, even to their faces. I'm a little too sarcastic for my own good, I think, especially with girls (as I usually can think of a lot more to make fun of with girls, heh ...but that just makes me like them more ). I think I underestimate how sensitive people can be, and I think I need to rework that part of my personality to be someone who can give out compliments too instead of just sarcastic jokes. I think back, and I've NEVER told a girl a compliment. Not once, and I know that's accurate because if I did, I would remember it. I'm almost afraid to say a compliment because I fear it will make me seem too foolish, uncool, or clingy.

[Mahatma]

There must be a balance. If you are always a jerk to a girl, then she will get fed up. She may stay with you, but will not be enjoyable. If you are always nice, she wont respect it anymore. If you are in between, and you put yourself before her sometimes and her before you sometimes, then it makes things more interesting.

[allina]

Most women with half a brain recognize when a guy is purposely not calling too much or not acting too interested and it makes the guy look lame. Personally I think this "be a d*ck/girls love a-holes" advice comes from jaded, angry men. Making the girl you like feel special is one of the best things you can do What you don't want to do is completely immerse yourself in her and lose the things about you that she fell for in the first place.

[kashmir]

Most women with half a brain recognize when a guy is purposely not calling too much or not acting too interested and it makes the guy look lame. Personally I think this "be a d*ck/girls love a-holes" advice comes from jaded, angry men. Making the girl you like feel special is one of the best things you can do What you don't want to do is completely immerse yourself in her and lose the things about you that she fell for in the first place.

 

I've only shown that I've fallen for a girl once, and that was my first crush and experience with a girl ever. Since then, I've completely avoided saying anything good to a girl.

[Mahatma]

Most women with half a brain recognize when a guy is purposely not calling too much or not acting too interested and it makes the guy look lame. Personally I think this "be a d*ck/girls love a-holes" advice comes from jaded, angry men. Making the girl you like feel special is one of the best things you can do What you don't want to do is completely immerse yourself in her and lose the things about you that she fell for in the first place.

 

This is very true. You can not be fake about it. You have to learn to value yourself higher than any other person. As soon as you start sacrificing yourself for your girl all the time, she will lose respect.

[monkey00]

There's nothing worse than not being yourself. Problem is not everyone knows who they are and where they stand in terms of balance.

 

I think what irks a lot of women about proclaimed 'nice guys' isn't entirely the fact that they might be a doormat. I think the real deal is the fact that they are too afraid of expressing their interest physically, which in a way screams to the girl that the guy isn't that into her and doesn't care enough about her to make a move.

 

Yes women love attention, they love excitement, they love to feel special, they like to be teased and treated like any other human also...but all done in moderation.

 

With women you always have to walk a fine line, unfortunately. Because a lot of women don't even know what they want themselves...it's just the way they are wired.

[alphamale]

Most women with half a brain recognize when a guy is purposely not calling too much or not acting too interested and it makes the guy look lame.

maybe the woman is doing or saying things to make him not call too much or act too interested. have you ever considered that possibility???

[MalachiX]

I'm at that point in my life (the ripe old age of 24) where I'm basically saying screw the game and all the acts we put on. This doesn't just apply to dating but everything. I used to worry a lot about how I presented myself and the kind of masks I would put on for various situations (social, business, romantic, ect.)

 

Now I simply try to act like the kind of person I would like to be. This doesn't always get me where I want as fast as I want (I actually seems like I was more attractive to women in my area when I was frustrated and having no idea what I wanted to do with myself then I am now that I'm motivated and driven) but I promise you that you'll feel a lot better about yourself this way. The old cliche used to say, "be yourself." That's a bit vague since we often struggle with who we are. Instead be the person you want to be. The joy of that is that, even if that doesn't always get you what you want, when it works, when you find a girl who likes you because you are projecting that person, it feels so much better.

 

As for the "jerk" stuff, I think you need to ask yourself if that is really who you are or if the "nice guy" who wants to do things for girls is who you are. Yes, a lot of guys who are jerks get women. But the more I look at my friends who are like this, the more I realize something: they don't really like women (they've all said this to me in those exact words), they have no respect for women (ditto), and they are willing to hook up with women who they find rather repulsive both physically and personality wise if the mood suits them. More than anything, they can't ever really become friends with women (once again, their words not mine). I'm not passing judgement on any of these guys (they are my friends after all) but I do think that this leaves a lot to be desired as far as a life goes. Sure I know what it's like to be "friended" as a nice guy and I know it's frustrating. But I also can't help but thinking that if I had to chose between someone of the friendships I've had with a lot of my female friends or sleeping with them a few times and leavning them resentful (as is always the case); I think the friendships are more valuable. Of course, there are acceptions like some really hot women I've known who I wasn't that good friends with anyway

[kashmir]

There's nothing worse than not being yourself. Problem is not everyone knows who they are and where they stand in terms of balance.

 

I think what irks a lot of women about proclaimed 'nice guys' isn't entirely the fact that they might be a doormat. I think the real deal is the fact that they are too afraid of expressing their interest physically, which in a way screams to the girl that the guy isn't that into her and doesn't care enough about her to make a move.

 

Yes women love attention, they love excitement, they love to feel special, they like to be teased and treated like any other human also...but all done in moderation.

 

With women you always have to walk a fine line, unfortunately. Because a lot of women don't even know what they want themselves...it's just the way they are wired.

 

The thing I have trouble with the most is making a physical move. I've been taught to believe that a) women don't care for physical intimacy, and b) it's the woman's move to make...ie she needs to give "permission" by starting to escalate contact with the guy. If a guy does it first, then he's seen as sex-focused, disrespectful, or creepy.

 

I've been in situations with girls who liked me, enough to go out with me and then invite me back to their place. Nothing ever happens, because something in the back of my mind yells, "no, you can't put your arm around her...that's invading her privacy!" when I think about making a move. It's not a surprise that these girls seem to lose interest in me

[Bells]

Being passionate and taking time regularly to maintain hobbies is a way of being busy. Don't spend less time doing the things you enjoy doing because of a romantic interest. If they started liking you when you were doing these things regularly, we like you to keep doing them. It's somewhat a sign of stability. Don't change what you do for anyone but yourself.

 

 

 

Are any of the girls dating that guy? No. They say that someone should, but they aren't going to be the ones to step up themselves.

 

What girls say we like and admire are not always what we like or admire. A lot of the time we really have no idea what we truly like. We don't go for the jerk because he is a jerk, we go for him because there is more manliness there than in the "nice guy." The "nice guy" doesn't usually show a lot of confidence, won't think for himself (he thinks only about the girl) and is afraid to be a little sexual from time to time.

 

If a guy is going out of his way for me or always trying to find out what I like or want to do then I don't get to ever learn anything about who he is. And personally I like it when my man is a little horny from time to time (and shows it), as long as he can control himself .

 

The "jerk" and "nice guy" are stereotypes. You need to pull away certain aspects from the stereotype that are and aren't attractive to women.

 

Bring her into your life, don't try to fit yourself into hers unless she brings you there. That's like inviting yourself over to some one else's party; it shouldn't be done. Your life is your party, feel free to invite her to it. Her life is her party, don't go over to it uninvited. Also she might find your party more fun than her own, so don't be disappointed if she doesn't get around to inviting you to her party for a while if she likes it at yours.

 

Thing is the "Nice Guy" typically make better husbands than the other option (the jerk). Unfortunately, in this topsy turvy world....women date jerks that knock them up, get them pregnant, and dump them..or slap them around, and they come into work with sunglasses up to cover up that "Shiner" on their eye.

 

Some guys are the kind of women men date, some are the kind of guys women marry.

[Bells]

The simple rule is:

 

You can believe what a woman says she likes in a man. She's speaking true words. However, what she is attracted to in a man is an entirely different matter.

 

When it comes to love, and especially attraction, all that matters is a woman's actions. Ignore her words. Example: She tells you she loves you and flirts with your best friend. Ummmm.....actions Another example: She says you're "more than friends" and yet never seems to make time for you. Yes, that's right....actions.

 

Lastly....she says you're a "nice guy".....bzzzzt! wrong! Words...you're now in the friend-zone

 

Carhill -

 

So those big "HEADLINERS" that say, "Where have all the Nice Guys Gone?" or "Looking for a Nice Guy!" on their personal ads.....that's all bunk then? LOL

 

 

[carhill]

Carhill -

 

So those big "HEADLINERS" that say, "Where have all the Nice Guys Gone?" or "Looking for a Nice Guy!" on their personal ads.....that's all bunk then? LOL

 

 

Seriously, their words are true. They are looking for a nice guy. A nice guy they can use as a receptacle for all the drama and emotion which comes from banging the guy they're attracted to, because he doesn't give a hoot about how they feel

[kashmir]

Women are like men, they like physicality, whoever told you they do not hasn't got a clue about what they're talking about. Emotions are the same for both men and women. Women get horny just like men, women cry like men, women smile the same way men do, and women get butterflies and so on. As for the second rule, whoever told you that lacks the confidence to make first contact with a woman, I should know as I have difficulty with this, the person who told you the above advice fears rejection. I don’t understand how you are seen as sex focused and sleazy if a woman has given you the green light to progress forwards.

 

You seem insecure and unsure of what is acceptable and what isn’t and you have just go for it, put your arm around her, if she takes it off or flips then don’t take it personally (as hard as that is) just chalk her up as a girl not right for you and move on. Yes, they lose interest in you, because you don’t show any interest back. If a girl flirts with you, flirt back, make her laugh, engage her and if you like the look of her based on first impressions or second, third or forth…ask her if she wants to go out sometime.

 

Men have told me what I said before, but mainly women, my mother in particular, have given me the impression that it's bad to go for a physical move. You're right, I'm very unsure about what's acceptable and what isn't. I was taught growing up that a guy making a move on a girl is sexist and wrong. Now I'm starting to realize that that isn't true, but it's hard to sink in. Growing up, I was taught that men have to be recessive since they're physically stronger and can overpower a woman. Thus, a woman has to assume that every guy who's being flirty with her has bad intentions to take advantage of her or sexually abuse her. The guy has to step down and let the woman give him permission to make a move once she trusts him.

 

I'm beginning to realize that's not true, and I'm liking that, but it's hard to bring yourself to change what you were brought up on. I really want to be the guy who isn't afraid to make a move. One who takes control and leaves things up to himself. I know I can be that guy, but for so long I've been told that that guy is bad.

 

Let me give you an example of how my mind works. I'm talking to a girl. I want to flirt in some way or do something to show my interest. Then I think, "No, she doesn't want that. She wants to TALK, and that's it. If I give her that flirty look, say something about her, or even touch her in some way, she'll think I'm sleazy, flip out, and go away. When she's ready she'll let me know." Of course, she's never ready, as you can imagine.

[Trialbyfire]

kashmir, there's nothing wrong with light, flirty remarks or reaching out and holding a girl's hand, on the first date. There's a line in the sand as to how far you can go with each girl. To show complete disinterest won't get her interest and more likely, since most girls when it comes to the pursuit aspect, take the more passive role. You'll find the odd girl physically aggressive on the first date but not many.

 

Perhaps your mother wasn't clear on the nuances of gender interaction. It sounds like she drew a hard line in the sand with a don't touch attitude. That's totally inaccurate unless you're not on a date and you've just met the girl. If that's the case, yes, it's probably a good idea not to come onto a girl with sexual remarks or touching, on first meet and greet.

[kashmir]

kashmir, there's nothing wrong with light, flirty remarks or reaching out and holding a girl's hand, on the first date. There's a line in the sand as to how far you can go with each girl. To show complete disinterest won't get her interest and more likely, since most girls when it comes to the pursuit aspect, take the more passive role. You'll find the odd girl physically aggressive on the first date but not many.

 

Perhaps your mother wasn't clear on the nuances of gender interaction. It sounds like she drew a hard line in the sand with a don't touch attitude. That's totally inaccurate unless you're not on a date and you've just met the girl. If that's the case, yes, it's probably a good idea not to come onto a girl with sexual remarks or touching, on first meet and greet.

 

On a first date, it isn’t wise to grope or lunge in for a kiss no, you’re on a first date and women will always give you the green light when it is acceptable to touch them, kiss them and slide your hand into theirs. You’ll know the colour of the light because you’ll pick up on her body language, but your mother sounds like a strict religious person (I mean no offence). It’s good to have respect and it is clear you have respect, but it is not wrong to flirt with a girl or hold her hand on a first or even kiss. In some countries people have sex on the first dates, I guess it is to do with culture preferences, I don’t know?

 

The larger concern is with how you think. You need to re-shape how you think, if a girl is interested in you, she wants you to flirt with her, tease her, have banter with her and ask her out on a date. It’s not sleazy to flirt; it’s a natural component in our ability to socialize with one another. Where I work people flirt with each other all the time, its harmless fun and comes to nothing. Flirting is not a major issue to a majority of people and it shouldn’t be a major issue for you, my friend. Try flirting, pay a girl who is interested in you with a compliment about her what she wearing and take things from there. I can’t tell you how to flirt, but it comes naturally to everyone, well it did with me and half the time I don’t realize I am flirting. It just happens and it is good for one’s ego.

 

I'm not talking about sex...not even kissing, but just little things. I'm happy to say that I've gotten a few dates, but they never went to a second date and I think it's because I didn't flirt at all. It was always like this - we get something to eat, we talk, do whatever else, and then go to her place or my place. I'm an interesting person to talk to...I mean, I seem to make people laugh and smile all the time. I figure I have to be interesting enough to make a girl wanna stay with me for hour after hour. I'm an elaborate talker and have charisma when I want to have it. It's just there's no element of flirting in there. I talk to girls I'm attracted to exactly how I would talk to guys, which I feel is my problem.

 

About my mom, she's not the strict religious type at all, in fact she was a bit wild when she was younger. She's different though, as she was never afraid to make a move on a guy, which is why she always told me to wait it out and let the girl do her thing. Her logic is that if a girl truly likes me, she'll make a move. Otherwise, she's not interested.

[Trialbyfire]

About my mom, she's not the strict religious type at all, in fact she was a bit wild when she was younger. She's different though, as she was never afraid to make a move on a guy, which is why she always told me to wait it out and let the girl do her thing. Her logic is that if a girl truly likes me, she'll make a move. Otherwise, she's not interested.

So she set you up with knowledge that's only applicable to a small percentage of women who are physically aggressive.

[kashmir]

Guess so, but it's also a number of other things with upbringing. The schools would always seem to brainwash abstinence into kids' heads every year, making guys into villains. Hell, they still do it in college...there are posters up all around campus that say stuff like, "What you think is your cue to continue is actually your cue to stop," or "Your sign of affection? Or is it a tug on a leash?"

 

Obviously, those don't have much of an effect on a lot of guys, but for me, a kid who developed late sexually and never really had a father to give me manly advice...it came to be my perception.

 

I've always believed that a girl's ideal relationship is just a really good friendship with a guy. No sex and nothing beyond minimal kissing in public to show that she has a boyfriend. Any form of sex, as little as holding hands, has been something she has to give away without having any desire for the actual act. That all women could live happily without a single man ever in their lives.

[Trialbyfire]

Whoah kashmir. Are you a victim or as an adult, do you feel you have the ability to become who you want to be?