rble618740 Posted November 9, 2008 Posted November 9, 2008 Our first year of marriage, my hubby and I separated (he walked out) during a blow out over the fact that he had only worked 5 of our first 10 months of marriage. While he wasn't working, he was drinking and playing money poker with friends while I was working 80 hour weeks. To be fair, I was a complete bi&*! about the situation. I derided him over it and he left when he couldn't take that any more. I must tell you that he has a Juris Doctorate (law degree) and an MBA, so he has the education to secure a good job. I did a lot of work on revamping my attitude and we went through marriage counseling. After 2 1/2 months apart, we reconciled. He moved back in on a "trial basis." He needed to know that we could live together peacefully, and I needed an assurance that he would work full-time. He opened his own law firm. Since that time (4 years ago), he's made between $30,000 and $40,000 per year (before taxes). He has not shared ANY information with me about his law practice and, as far as I can tell, he does not work very hard trying to increase business. He does not like the kind of law he's practicing, but he likes not having a boss, he like's ducking out at noon on Friday to play golf, and he likes not working nights and weekends. We now have a nine month old daughter. I am miserable working 90+ hour weeks (and leaving her for five weeks at a time, etc.) to make the money we need to add to his income to support our family. We both have significant law school loans. I am so frustrated at having the argument with him about why we can't continue our job situations. It is driving a wedge between us. I can barely feel love for im because of my resentment. I never see my daughter. My boss does not acknowledge that I have a personal life or responsibilities. It's a bad deal all around. It's not my hubby's job to fix my work situation. His underemployment, though, puts significantly more earning responsibility on my plate. I'm not o.k. with it. It doesn't make sense for the two of us to work full-time to earn what we earn, if I could make what he makes working part-time and he could work a higher paying full-time job. He doesn't even like what he does. Maybe it would be worth it to me if he was gratified in his underpaid job, but he's not. He likes his work situation. Is it unfair of me to be upset? I just want to get some objective opinions on the situation. I'm trying to fairly present the situation so I should add that he is an INCREDIBLE dad, does more than most men around the house, and runs a lot of errands and stuff b/c of his flexibility. I am thankful for those things but - I guess after 5+ years of being the work horse, now that we have a little one, I want to have some flexibility.
soserious1 Posted November 10, 2008 Posted November 10, 2008 been there, done that... I pay him alimony now. Hope you wrote a strong prenup.
Author rble618740 Posted November 10, 2008 Author Posted November 10, 2008 I don't often need validation, but where I am extremely emotional about a subject, I like an outside point of view. I think one of the issues is that - from my position during our separation - my husband knows that I will not divorce him. That is even more the case now that we have my sweet daughter. As I indicated, he's an amazing dad. I guess what I'm looking for is some kinda' solution short of divorce. The idea of talking to my boss is a great one. I have that on my "plan" for addressing the situation. Adding to my stress is that my annual review is 2 1/2 months past due. Meaning - I've been chomping at the bit to take some action on my own to remedy the situation for the last 2 1/2 months. My office has only four attorneys (two are partners). It's EXTREMELY traditional, and I am the only female attorney. I think anything is possible-especially since there is no question I've been a dedicated employee for over 6 years now. I billed the same amount of hours this year as I did last, and this year I took three months maternity leave. In August, I billed over 360 hours. Anyway...my work dissatisfaction, and feeling like my husband doesn't mind enjoying his work situation at the expense of my sanity, has me at wit's end. My husband is a weird bird. He seems embarassed at not having a better job - but does not seem very motivated to change things. Not my style and a passive-agressive personality is not one I understand.
Mr. Lucky Posted November 10, 2008 Posted November 10, 2008 He does not seem to have moved from adulthood to parenthood, where the needs of the family unit trump one's personal desires. Since you went to MC for this exact problem, what insight was offered there as to your two different approaches to your careers? Mr. Lucky
Reggie Posted November 10, 2008 Posted November 10, 2008 Neither yo or your husband are right on this. You simply seem to have different takes on what constitutes a successful, rewarding life. His path is not focused on $$ and that is a perfectly valid way to lead one's life. Your focus is valid as well. But, you guys are not on the same page in terms of how you want to live. This could , actually, be a good mix, if each of you accepted the other. He is more available to take care of things on the homefront while you are the major breadwinner. This is a common scenario and works well for many couples. I wonder if the gender thing here isn't figuring into this .If it was the reverse, many guys grinding it out would be ectstatic to have their wife chipping in 25-30 grand a year while holding down the fort at home more. With his income and your billables, you guys must make more than the average couple. I know what it is like to be a young lawyer chasing that carrot. I bailed after a while , despite doing very well in law school. I could not stand it. It bored me and I did not want to waste my life chasing $$. But, some folks love it. Maybe you guys can structure your lives so he is the primary cargiver for your daughter and you are the primary breadwinner. Both are valuable roles.
soserious1 Posted November 10, 2008 Posted November 10, 2008 I don't often need validation, but where I am extremely emotional about a subject, I like an outside point of view. I think one of the issues is that - from my position during our separation - my husband knows that I will not divorce him. Yeah but what if he divorces you? or what if he assumes a passive aggressive style of Behavior in response to your concerns ie: what if he drives you to divorce him? You're killing yourself looking to make partner status I assume and he earns minimal money, he seems quite content to continue on allowing you to pull the bulk of the fiscal load, even counseling didn't faze him? In the end of my marriage what became abudently clear was that my husband viewed himself as better than I. more worthy. He got to make life choices, I got handed all our bills. When he was called on it, the fight that resulted was pretty nasty. I could never sit on my hands while my life partner was out there literally killing themselves with work, I wouldn't need to be asked or begged to help out fiscally and would be mortified if I was such a slacker that it became an issue in couple's therapy.To me this would indicate that I had huge gaps in my awareness of others along with a strong sense of entitlement.
Mr. Lucky Posted November 10, 2008 Posted November 10, 2008 I think anything is possible-especially since there is no question I've been a dedicated employee for over 6 years now. I billed the same amount of hours this year as I did last, and this year I took three months maternity leave. In August, I billed over 360 hours. Relationship issues and your husband aside, is this the life that, as the mother of a small child, you want to live? Seems like a separate issue from the marital choices... Mr. Lucky
galicat Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 wow, you are amazing and deserve a big pat on the back for working those hours and bringing up a child. i wondered when i was reading about your husbands background. was he a bit indulged/spoilt by his mother and/or father as he was growing up? it sounds like he feels abit entiled and isn't very motivated to work and provide (or even pull his weight in this department) and is happy to see you/mum do all the work. mind you, you say he is helpful around the house. i'm not married and i don't have children so i can only imagine how hard this must be and no wonder you feel worn out. you are entitled to expect your husband to share the weight with you. i was reading the responces and Reggies one is interesting. you can either walk or try to look at the sitaution another way, him being a house husband, you the primary bread winner. how does this sit with you? if you were stuck at home all day would you prefer this or maybe when it all come sout in the wash you would rather have your work (albeit less of it). I'm sorry i can't offer more insight but i wish you luck )
Reggie Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 One thing to bear in mind in this is that if the genders were reversed, few people would look askance at this arrangement. More and more couples are choosing to reverse traditional roles and it works for them. Maybe you have greater earnig potential than he does. Maybe he is more suited to a low key job and taking care of the household and child. Is it the fact that he is male and you female that causes the discontent? 25-30 grand more a year while your child is young makes a huge difference> I wish ny XW was willing to contribute like that.
Mr. Lucky Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 One thing to bear in mind in this is that if the genders were reversed, few people would look askance at this arrangement. Really? If she's billing 90 hours a week, she's working 120. Gender aside, my question is simply based on quality of life and either parent loses when priorities are this far out of whack. In this case, her child is basically being raised by a single father... Mr. Lucky
Reggie Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 Really? If she's billing 90 hours a week, she's working 120. Gender aside, my question is simply based on quality of life and either parent loses when priorities are this far out of whack. In this case, her child is basically being raised by a single father... Mr. Lucky Actually, most of the attorneys I know in private practice bill for more time than is actually spent working. It was common in the firm where I worked to bill this way. One of the reasons I got out. In any case, I'm not suggesting she has to work those type of hours. But, I think they need to make a decison as to what type of arrangement is best for them. Chasing $$ can break up a marriage. So can lounging around.
Reggie Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 I agree, Lucky, those kind of hours are insane. Kid needs mom more than this schedule allows.
Trialbyfire Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 Neither yo or your husband are right on this. You simply seem to have different takes on what constitutes a successful, rewarding life. His path is not focused on $$ and that is a perfectly valid way to lead one's life. Your focus is valid as well. But, you guys are not on the same page in terms of how you want to live. This could , actually, be a good mix, if each of you accepted the other. He is more available to take care of things on the homefront while you are the major breadwinner. This is a common scenario and works well for many couples. I wonder if the gender thing here isn't figuring into this .If it was the reverse, many guys grinding it out would be ectstatic to have their wife chipping in 25-30 grand a year while holding down the fort at home more. With his income and your billables, you guys must make more than the average couple. I know what it is like to be a young lawyer chasing that carrot. I bailed after a while , despite doing very well in law school. I could not stand it. It bored me and I did not want to waste my life chasing $$. But, some folks love it. Maybe you guys can structure your lives so he is the primary cargiver for your daughter and you are the primary breadwinner. Both are valuable roles. I totally agree with this post. OP, did the two of you discuss who would take care of your baby, previous to starting a family?
Author rble618740 Posted November 20, 2008 Author Posted November 20, 2008 Given the nature of my original post, I hope you will understand that I don't get to sign on very often : ) It seems some of you are interested in a little bit more detail about my situation and, if it leads to objective opinions, I am happy to provide. I discussed with my husband, prior to our decision to start a family, the possibility that he could be a stay-at-home dad. He was opposed. His mother takes care of our daughter during the workday. It is also worth noting that I make good money. The issue is, however, that we both have incredibly hefty law school loans (more than our mortgage each month). Also, as far as earning capacity, he has an MBA in addition to his JD (I do not) and he graduated from a highly regarded undergraduate institution (versus my attendance at a mediocre state school). To the extent that I am "more employable" it is, in my opinion, related to effort and not education or credentials. Finally, I guess my bottom line thinking right now is, if someone has to work 90 hour weeks to make ends meet for our family, I have done it for 5 years. It's his turn. I want to be with my baby. I can't change my work situation until he has a job that provides more income. Until then, I have no flexibility. Lastly, we both agreed (prior to marriage) that we had traditional views on marriage. I am admittedly not comfortable as the major "bread earner" in our family.
Author rble618740 Posted November 20, 2008 Author Posted November 20, 2008 I should say that, philosophically, I agree with the folks that opined that neither of us is wrong - we just have differing priorities/approaches. The problem is that, from my perspective, his way could work with someone else...but it doesn't work for me and I resent having it forced on me. My husband has the leisure of his current work situation only because he is married to someone who makes significantly more than he does. If he were on his own (single, divorced, etc.), he would be forced to make more money to live.
mental_traveller Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 Decide your "dealbreaker" boundaries, then tell him honestly, and see if he is willing to up his game to meet you half way. If not, divorce, or resign yourself to supporting a lazy chump of a husband. If he loves you he will at least make some effort to compromise. May I ask, why does a dual income household where the *lower* earner is making $30-40k per annum, have a problem making ends meet? Either you live in an expensive town (fair enough), or perhaps you are just spending too much.
Author rble618740 Posted December 2, 2008 Author Posted December 2, 2008 Since you guys are kind enough to spend your time helping me with my issue...I try not to neglect your questions. The reason our cost of living is so high is because we both have huge law school loans we're paying back. In fact, we pay more several hundred dollars more per month for our loans than we do for our mortgage. We drive used cars (with no car payment) and live in a modest home. I don't feel we live beyond our means, but our law school loans mean that a nice income for other families does not cover our bills. Also, with regard to the debate as to whether I have to work more than 90 hours to bill 90 hours I do. I know some attorneys bill more time than they spend, but I do not. In fact, I do a lot of presentations, etc. that are nonbillable time. I average several nonbillable hours per week.
NoIDidn't Posted December 2, 2008 Posted December 2, 2008 rble It is possible to have your law school loans restructured so you won't have to pay so much. In fact, given your situation, you might even be able to get them deferred again. I just finished paying off my school loans - both mine and my husband's - and these were undergrad (and not nearly as much as my mortgage) This is going to sound judgmental, but I don't mean it in that way. I admit, that my approach is not exactly the best way to handle this, but here goes. If you did not want to be the primary breadwinner, you should have put a stop to it when you saw it happening. It should have been discussed in the counselling that you both did. I was the breadwinner for the first five years of my marriage. And like you, I rode him for it for awhile. It only served to make him angry and withdrawn. And hurt our marriage. But if I had to do it over again, I still would have told him of my displeasure - just not so snidely. You are an attorney, so I know you know about "post nups". They are all the rage now. Do some research about them. I'd rather offend him by requesting one now, than paying him alimony later. I have too many former co-workers that are paying their lazy, and cheating I might add, ex-husbands alimony. One even lost custody of their kids after his family bribed a judge (I kid you not). This issue is going to continue to eat at you. You have to find some terms to discuss this with him in a way that will resonate with him. His mother might be more of an ally to him than to you, so you mgiht want to consider other childcare arrangements. I've seen this help the lazy man get alimony AND custody of the kids. I know you are not looking at a divorce, but I wanted you to know what has happened to others when this issue is not resolved satisfactorily. I wish you luck. My way of getting my hubby to step up was to make him responsible for half of all the household bills and ALL of his own personal debt. That woke him right up when he realized he didn't have any money left in his account. And he was the one that insisted on separate accounts. We don't have this/these issues today.
D-Jam Posted December 2, 2008 Posted December 2, 2008 You should tell him you're exhausted and burned out...and you want to quit your job and take a sabbatical for a while. Be a mom, etc. Not saying you should...but you should lay it out there and see how he'll react if he is now the breadwinner. PLUS...90+ hour work weeks? How about talking to your work about that? And don't pull the "well, in my career field it comes with the job" and all that other junk about ambition, growth, and working hard to get ahead. No offense, if you wanted your career that badly, then you should have held off on having children. Astounds me when I see people who think they can "have it all". They go through all that schooling, work insane hours at the job, but then somehow think they can fit in a RL or worse a family into the mix. Sorry to be harsh, but male or female, if you're looking to become the CEO, or the partner, and it involves working 80-90 hours a week, or traveling a ton...guess what? It means you might have to give up on the ideas of love, marriage, and family. This is the world we live in now. Unfortunately, you've already opened the door and have a 9-month old daughter. That means you made your CHOICE. That means you chose a life where you can't be all career-ambitious and work insane hours to get ahead. That means YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND need to settle for a lesser income, smaller house, cheaper car, and cheaper clothing, but work a normal work week and be PARENTS to your daughter. I'm seeing young adults who were raised on day care by parents who thought they could do both. Funny how many of them have no sense of responsibility or accountability, disrespect their parents, do drugs, get drunk all the time, and in the case of girls...come home pregnant from some douchebag. You want your daughter to be that way? 1) Hit your husband with the idea of a sabbatical. If he freaks out, then CALMLY lay it all out there. Tell him you can't keep up this pace and be a parent. Tell him you need his help, and if he's not going to help...then divorce. 2) Tone down your career. I know that sucks, but that comes with being a parent. Give up the ambitions for the high position and instead make your ambitions about your daughter. Be a mom to your daughter. I'm sorry to be blunt, but this is the price one pays to be a parent. No one...man or woman...can have it all in this matter.
Lucky_One Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 He has his own law firm? Why not join him? You can spend some time bringing in new clients, and hopefully your presence there will get him more inspired and working harder at increasing the business of the firm. The beginning would be difficult, as you would be taking a pay cut and will need to bust your hump to bring in more business. There are a lot of tax breaks for owning your own business, depending on how you structure it. Since you would be the only two there, you would have more flexibility with your time, and you could also feel free to have your daughter at work with you for part of the day, or your MIL can drop in with her for meals or brief visits.
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