why did you not take the option of divorce?

[me4u2]

PKN - Your posts hit so close to home with me, I wonder if you'd be so kind as to give me your "hindsight" vision.

 

We both have passive spouses, so much so that screaming at the roof tops probably wouldn't make too much of a difference. In hindsight, given all you've gone through and tried, do you think separating with a spouse like that is a huge signal? Or was the affair the only signal you thought she would wake up to? Somewhere around here or on another thread you said your wife thought about and processed the divorce and it seems like she decided against it. You had also said you changed and she loved it but she never reciprocated back to you. Do you think separating would have forced her reciprocation? I realize I'm asking for assumptions and hindsight here. But too curious to know your thoughts since I'm asking for my own personal reasons.

[pkn06002]

But you didn't bring up the idea of divorce until after you had already begun to resent her to the point where you couldn't come back from it and love your wife again. You admitted that either earlier in this thread, or in another. Therefore, you don't KNOW if it would have worked.

 

Oh wait as sec I tried your "implied" methods before that.

 

The actual discussion open discussion of divorce did not come up it that affair was ending.

[pkn06002]

PKN - Your posts hit so close to home with me, I wonder if you'd be so kind as to give me your "hindsight" vision.

 

We both have passive spouses, so much so that screaming at the roof tops probably wouldn't make too much of a difference. In hindsight, given all you've gone through and tried, do you think separating with a spouse like that is a huge signal? Or was the affair the only signal you thought she would wake up to? Somewhere around here or on another thread you said your wife thought about and processed the divorce and it seems like she decided against it. You had also said you changed and she loved it but she never reciprocated back to you. Do you think separating would have forced her reciprocation? I realize I'm asking for assumptions and hindsight here. But too curious to know your thoughts since I'm asking for my own personal reasons.

 

Separation to my wife is the same as divorce. A separation would also bring the whole family to get involved, without really solving anything.

 

What may of worked was just doing an in-house separation and moving into a spare room. But that becomes hard with a child in the mix.

 

Basically it comes down to this there is NO GOOD way to force a spouse to change or hit rock bottom. Something has to give and in my case an affair was the easiest (sounds like for Taylor also) way to do cope and still stay married.

[jwi71]

You need to remember that I told my wife about my affair. I could've keep it quite and never told her. I was already forcing change after the "I love you but I don't love you" speech and the fact I also told her that if by January 1st I was not happy I was moving out and we were divorcing.

 

I am find that once I started on that path I am going down it. Because the issues I am uncovering are filling me with resentment and anger. Things that make me NOT want to recover anything.

 

So there you go a great example of why even starting that path leads to no where.

 

To me, that use of the "D word" is threatening and harsh. A weapon. For me, its almost like saying "be better by Jan 1 or you're gone". I don't know how realistic that is. The way she treated you for years cannot be so easily undone. I think its an unrealistic expectation for you and her.

 

And even in a "more healthy" relationship, that use of divorce is not going to help anything. Its an ultimatum. And the problem with ultimatums is having to the carry them out or lose credibility. The tend to trap the issuer more often than the recipient.

 

I hope you resolve it in a manner that suits you. I still your best option, after reading (and posting) in your thread and others - is divorce. I think you are too hurt and too angry to move past this. And I certainly don't fault you for that. No, do not construe this as condoning your A. I don't.

[taylor]

And...a lot of times its when things seem to hit rock bottom that BOTH parties start communicating openly and honestly about the problems...but they don't UNTIL then.

 

But there wasnt' a darn thing I could do UNTIL that point to get her to communicate with me.

 

Hitting rock bottom is when most people can stop falling, and start climbing.

 

And this is what bothers me when posters say why didn't you just tell your husband you weren't happy, instead of going out and having an affair...

 

I did. I did. I did. I did. I did!!!!!

[pkn06002]

jwi71

 

I have removed the timeframe because it was artificial.

 

I don't expect anyone to condone my affair, heck I don't and I did it. It is a historical fact for me at this point.

 

Divorce for me maybe the final outcome, I don't like that thought but it maybe. Hard to contemplate that route when I have events like this morning where my daughter asked me to cuttle to watch cartoons with her. How do you willingly give that up everyday?

[Owl]

And this is what bothers me when posters say why didn't you just tell your husband you weren't happy, instead of going out and having an affair...

 

I did. I did. I did. I did. I did!!!!!

 

I believe you. Given the situation you've described, I can believe that you did try to discuss the problems, and nothing was done.

 

That's a good indicator that this marriage may not be viable.

 

BUT... you need to stop and realize that while YOU may have done so, and YOUR situation appears (from your posts, which is all I've got to go on) to have been abusive one....NOT everyone else's marriage is like this. Not even those that ended up in infidelity.

 

I think you've projected your situation throughout these "discussion" threads...

 

You've assumed that since YOUR BS is like this...the rest of the BS's are.

 

You might consider taking a step back for a while...work through your counseling...and see what's described in each situation without projecting yours into what you're reading.

 

Some degree of projection is fine...it leads to empathy.

 

But look at the huge degree of contention that these threads have held...and consider if any of that might not be because you're projecting your situation onto others.

 

Just a thought.

[pkn06002]

Well, since you confessed that you were not assertive, I'm betting the conversation wasn't put forth in a way that made the realization sink in.

 

That is the problem with the "hinting around" the issue.

 

But for me to become more specific puts me in that mindset of moving on.

[taylor]

jwi71

 

I have removed the timeframe because it was artificial.

 

I don't expect anyone to condone my affair, heck I don't and I did it. It is a historical fact for me at this point.

 

Divorce for me maybe the final outcome, I don't like that thought but it maybe. Hard to contemplate that route when I have events like this morning where my daughter asked me to cuttle to watch cartoons with her. How do you willingly give that up everyday?

 

You don't willingly and easily give this up. That's why you don't play around with the word "divorce" unless you really want it.

 

Otherwise, you may discover you did throw the baby out with the dirty dishwater, when that's all you really wanted to do was change the water.

[Owl]

I believe you. Given the situation you've described, I can believe that you did try to discuss the problems, and nothing was done.

 

That's a good indicator that this marriage may not be viable.

 

BUT... you need to stop and realize that while YOU may have done so, and YOUR situation appears (from your posts, which is all I've got to go on) to have been abusive one....NOT everyone else's marriage is like this. Not even those that ended up in infidelity.

 

I think you've projected your situation throughout these "discussion" threads...

 

You've assumed that since YOUR BS is like this...the rest of the BS's are.

 

You might consider taking a step back for a while...work through your counseling...and see what's described in each situation without projecting yours into what you're reading.

 

Some degree of projection is fine...it leads to empathy.

 

But look at the huge degree of contention that these threads have held...and consider if any of that might not be because you're projecting your situation onto others.

 

Just a thought.

 

I just realize that I wrote this post thinking about Pkn, and not about Taylor.

 

I apologize for getting confused.

 

I'm not sure how much it changes my advice tho.

[pkn06002]

I'm sure YOU were "hinting around" as you put it with your wife after reading your self-description, but if I were to have a conversation with a spouse where things were in THAT much trouble, believe me - he would KNOW where I was coming from!

 

Well then you are much better at these issues then I am. Good for you.

[pkn06002]

I think you've projected your situation throughout these "discussion" threads...

 

You've assumed that since YOUR BS is like this...the rest of the BS's are.

 

You might consider taking a step back for a while...work through your counseling...and see what's described in each situation without projecting yours into what you're reading.

 

Some degree of projection is fine...it leads to empathy.

 

 

Your right not all BS and WS are the same, I just happen to be as rabid as a lot of BS you will see.

 

I am projecting no less then some BS do when they respond to a WS. But that situation seems to always be tolerated where a WS projecting is not.

[me4u2]

Thanks PKN for your insight. Unfortuantely, I'm relating to your posts as well as Taylor's regarding the inner workings of the marriage, the conversations, the coping mechanism (A) and the views on separation/divorce.

 

I suppose I need to set the serious boundaries as you suggested days ago.

[jwi71]

Divorce for me maybe the final outcome, I don't like that thought but it maybe. Hard to contemplate that route when I have events like this morning where my daughter asked me to cuttle to watch cartoons with her. How do you willingly give that up everyday?

 

Hard as hell. Harder.

 

But what is best for her?

 

I would say that daughters grow up and "marry their fathers". The man she marries will have many of your qualities. Are you painting her a good husband? What do your words and actions teach her? What will she learn is "normal"? She learns it from you and your w.

 

Consider this. My daughter is 5. And for the past week she has spouting off how great Barack Obama is. She has no idea who he is. Not a clue. I promise I do not discuss politics with my 5 year old. She learned via osmosis I swear. She learned it though. I was amazed at what she picked up from me. Still am. She learns from the environement. I know you have experienced this: if things are tense with your W, your daughter picks up on it. Mine does...

 

I think you, your W and your daughter are all far better served by dissolving the marriage. Whatever you pick, it will not be easy.

 

And I am not even talking about YOU. You need to heal. After years of the crap...many wounds and scars. Hard work ahead my friend. Can you truly pour yourself into it? Can your W?

 

I faced the same when deciding whether or not to file against my WS. And that, for me, is where MC came in. I learned a lot about me, about my W and our M. Still learning. Our marriage is worse off after her A, but our communication is better. And better communication leads to better marriage - I live it everyday (except the slide backwards "bad" days).

 

I hope you resolve the situation in a manner you can live with.

[Owl]

Your right not all BS and WS are the same, I just happen to be as rabid as a lot of BS you will see.

 

I am projecting no less then some BS do when they respond to a WS. But that situation seems to always be tolerated where a WS projecting is not.

 

I'll agree...you're projecting like SOME (read, a couple) of BS's we USED to have around here, but haven't seen in a while.

 

Its not tolerated either, actually. Which is why I haven't seen any of the ones I'm thinking on in a couple of months.

 

People eventually either learn how to moderate their posts, or get tired of picking fights.

 

Unfortunately, you're walking around with this HUGE chip on your shoulder...you're just BEGGING for someone to come and try to knock it off, which is why you're deliberately posting provoking and contentious responses DELIBERATELY INTENDED to get exactly the response you're looking for.

 

You're seeing what you want to see here...because you're deliberately staging things to get exactly those responses.

 

If you think I'm wrong...stop posting for a while, and just WATCH the threads that flow...you'll find a lot of BS's (myself included) here HELPING others to deal with what's going on, rather than aimlessly lashing out at others "on the other side".

[jwi71]

You don't willingly and easily give this up. That's why you don't play around with the word "divorce" unless you really want it.

 

Otherwise, you may discover you did throw the baby out with the dirty dishwater, when that's all you really wanted to do was change the water.

 

Under what conditions can two adults discuss divorce? Or is it divorce by ambush for all?

[pkn06002]

I'll agree...you're projecting like SOME (read, a couple) of BS's we USED to have around here, but haven't seen in a while.

 

Its not tolerated either, actually. Which is why I haven't seen any of the ones I'm thinking on in a couple of months.

 

People eventually either learn how to moderate their posts, or get tired of picking fights.

 

Unfortunately, you're walking around with this HUGE chip on your shoulder...you're just BEGGING for someone to come and try to knock it off, which is why you're deliberately posting provoking and contentious responses DELIBERATELY INTENDED to get exactly the response you're looking for.

 

You're seeing what you want to see here...because you're deliberately staging things to get exactly those responses.

 

If you think I'm wrong...stop posting for a while, and just WATCH the threads that flow...you'll find a lot of BS's (myself included) here HELPING others to deal with what's going on, rather than aimlessly lashing out at others "on the other side".

 

I do see you and other BS's that want to discuss. Notice I don't pick "fights" with you. There are a few here though that do no want to discuss anything with a WS.

 

You will also notice I generally (not always) start in a very civil neutral tone. Then like the thread over in infidelity BS will come to the thread and start poking at me directly not the topic. At that point I will poke back. On that infidelity thread several people have commented that the responses back to me skate on the personal attack line.

 

I did apologize to the one BS where I did lash out at her, she did not deserve that.

 

This thread has had a good back and forth. There are few posts of a contentious type.

[carhill]

Under what conditions can two adults discuss divorce? Or is it divorce by ambush for all?

 

IME, MC is a good venue to look at all options

[taylor]

Under what conditions can two adults discuss divorce? Or is it divorce by ambush for all?

 

I agree with carhill. There is a huge span between saying "This marriage is in trouble" and "I think we should consider divorce. Let's talk about it."

 

Within that span is marriage counseling. An excellent decision/action to take in light of a troubled marriage if BOTH agree to go.

 

My husband and I started MC 6 weeks after D-day. The first question the therapist asked was, "Do you want to divorce?" In unison, my husband and I both declared, "NO!" The subject was never brought up again.

 

Under what condition can two adults discuss divorce? Any time a spouse decides 100 percent that he wants out of the marriage, discuss divorce all you want. But, honestly, what is there to discuss..custody division of assets and spousal support...that can be done in court.

 

Marriage is a decision. Divorce is a decision. If you want your marriage, talk marriage. If you don't want your marriage, talk divorce.

 

Playing the divorce card in an effort to reconcile your marriage is contradictory and minimizes the committment to the marriage, IMO.

[Owl]

 

Playing the divorce card in an effort to reconcile your marriage is contradictory and minimizes the committment to the marriage, IMO.

 

Agreed...and when you tie this back to the original gist of this thread, I'm assuming that YOU didn't feel that the affair had the same effect/meaning...while you were in it at least. Correct?

 

What about now? Do you feel the affair sends that same message?

[jwi71]

I agree with carhill. There is a huge span between saying "This marriage is in trouble" and "I think we should consider divorce. Let's talk about it."

 

Within that span is marriage counseling. An excellent decision/action to take in light of a troubled marriage if BOTH agree to go.

 

My husband and I started MC 6 weeks after D-day. The first question the therapist asked was, "Do you want to divorce?" In unison, my husband and I both declared, "NO!" The subject was never brought up again.

 

Under what condition can two adults discuss divorce? Any time a spouse decides 100 percent that he wants out of the marriage, discuss divorce all you want. But, honestly, what is there to discuss..custody division of assets and spousal support...that can be done in court.

 

Marriage is a decision. Divorce is a decision. If you want your marriage, talk marriage. If you don't want your marriage, talk divorce.

 

Playing the divorce card in an effort to reconcile your marriage is contradictory and minimizes the committment to the marriage, IMO.

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree with MC.

 

But we will have to disagree about two adults discussing divorce.

Besides, its cheaper to do it at the dinner table than with my 500.00/hr lawyer there in court!

 

Not to give the wrong impression, I have not filed nor do I think I will.

[taylor]

Under what conditions can two adults discuss divorce? Or is it divorce by ambush for all?

 

It's never divorce by ambush.

 

Usually by the time a marriage reaches the divorce state, both spouses are well aware of its deterioration.

 

Even in the case of affairs. Affairs don't happen in happy marriages. Usually SOMETHING is out of kilter and both spouses are aware, whether they want to admit it or not.

[carhill]

Under what condition can two adults discuss divorce? Any time a spouse decides 100 percent that he wants out of the marriage, discuss divorce all you want. But, honestly, what is there to discuss..custody division of assets and spousal support...that can be done in court.

 

TBH, just having concluded the first phase of a non-divorce-related court matter, I'd opine the better two divorcing spouses communicate and negotiate, the better the outcome will be for everyone, not only monetarily but emotionally. If one does does decide on the option of divorce, this is where the benefits of MC and mediation pay off big time, IMO.

[taylor]

I wholeheartedly agree with MC.

 

But we will have to disagree about two adults discussing divorce.

Besides, its cheaper to do it at the dinner table than with my 500.00/hr lawyer there in court!

 

Not to give the wrong impression, I have not filed nor do I think I will.

 

JWI, if you can discuss custody, division of assets, and spousal support in a calm, cordial manner at the dinner table, I give you alot of credit. Good for you.

[carhill]

Affairs don't happen in happy marriages. Usually SOMETHING is out of kilter and both spouses are aware, whether they want to admit it or not.

 

I would add "generally" to the beginning of the above quote. Serial cheaters can be quite happy in their marriages and still "spread the ha*penis* (per Marlon Brando) around".