why did you not take the option of divorce?

[taylor]

Affairs don't remove the pain - it actually adds another layer of pain to the marriage.

 

Affairs TEMPORARILY do remove pain for the WS. There is no pain in lala land. But, yes, I agree that all the while the WS is alleviating his/her own internal pain, a layer is being put upon the marriage itself.

 

But an affair is a finality in it's own way. You can never go back once you have an affair.

 

No, you can't go back. But few who have affairs do want to go back to the same pre-affair marriage. They want the marriage to be different...better. And if that's not possible with effort, then they either stay in an unsatisfying marriage, have another affair, or divorce.

 

Divorce is more final in that there is no hope for change or recovery of the marriage.

 

I agree with you that affairs do affect the whole scope of a couple's life together, but not to the same degree as divorce.

 

When I learned my father had an affair, I was angry at him for doing that to my mother; but when my parents announced they were divorcing 2 years later, it turned my entire world upside down for the next decade.

 

A 5 or 10 year old child learning that his mother or father cares about another man or woman is not nearly as devastating to that child as learning that his parents are getting divorced (for whatever reason) and then experiencing the ramifications of that decision.

 

My affair did not separate my husband from his children; did not uproot my children from their home, school, friends; did not alter anyone's financial status. And no one in our family knows of the affair so it has not affected our relationships with extended family members or friends. Our children know our marriage isn't running smoothly but they don't ask. They know we are working to make it better.

 

I would like to ask BS on this forum, if your spouse came to you with a confession, which would devastate you more? Which would devastate your children more?:

 

1. I'm having an affair. I will end it tomorrow.

 

2. I want to divorce you. I'm filing tomorrow.

[Dexter Morgan]

1. I'm having an affair. I will end it tomorrow.

 

2. I want to divorce you. I'm filing tomorrow.

 

 

#2 would have devestated me more in the short term until the shock of dday was over.

 

#1 would devestate me more in the long run. which is why I wouldn't stay with a WS.

[taylor]

I'm not a BS, but I did divorce my ex, and our son was five.

 

I can tell you that the look on my little boy's face during the last fight (verbal only) his father and I had was enough to make me realize we were doing WAY more damage to him staying together than we could ever do if we divorced. And I'm sure I was right. Our son is now a happy, well adjusted, good hearted 14 year old who is doing well in school and has lots of friends. I hate to think what he may have become had he continued to watch his father and I try to stay in that sham of a marriage.

 

Donnamaybe,

 

I am also thankful my parents divorced. My mother struggled for years afterwards with financial and self-esteem problems, but there was peace in the house. My father faired better. He married the OW.

 

I realized years later that the divorce was the best thing my parents could have done for all of us in the long run.

 

A house filled with verbal and/or physical abuse is the worse hell a child can be put through. They have no choice but to suffer in the midst of it.

 

I know. I was there. I used to cover my head with my pillow night after night trying to drown out the fighting words my parents hurled at each other across the kitchen table. And then I had to endure the months of "silence" between them, walking on eggshells, waiting for all hell to break loose.

 

I am sure divorce was a difficult decision for you to make and I am sure it hasn't been easy for you (it wasn't for my mom). But you know your son is happier for it and that's what makes you know in your heart that you did the right thing. My mom did, too.

 

But it still doesn't change my opinion that divorce is more traumatic on a family than an affair. I guess I should add that living in a dysfunctional household is worse than an affair or a divorce. In the end, we all hope good can come from the pain of it, whether it be a divorce or an affair.

[pkn06002]

See this where the concept of the high conflict and low conflict marriage comes into play.

 

I too was a kid from a high conflict marriage and I WANTED my parents to divorce. To this day I cannot take angry yelling between people. It upsets me to no end.

 

But when reading about low conflict marriages and the effects on kids you get a different results. Kids in low conflict marriages that dissolve seem to have all kinds of problems where kids from high conflict actually do better.

 

So add that to my list.

[taylor]

duplicate, sorry.

[taylor]

Perhaps, providing the affair is never discovered. But how do you think many spouses might act upon discovery? Do you not think that children will suffer through some fights, some hurling of insults and disparaging remarks? I'm certain that an affair is potentially the most emotionally hurtful single act to perpetrate upon your relationship partner, which could result in long term upheaval in the household, if not forever damaging the relationship.

 

I think children suffer in the midst of any bad marriage, regardless of whether there is an affair or not.

 

An affair ends a marriage in one way or another. Either the parents divorce because of it or the parents reconcile and change the marriage to make it a happier one. Either way, it can be a happier ending for everyone involved in the long run.

 

Couples who choose to stay in unsatisfying marriages after D-Day even though there contunues to be long term upheaval in the household are both to blame for choosing to inflict long term emotional damage on their children.

[pkn06002]

So just toss an affair in there? What the heck? OMG!

 

Affairs force change

[pkn06002]

So does talk of divorce WITHOUT the damage to trust.

 

I have posted above why I cannot even begin that conversation, since once I go down that road I am not coming back.

 

But I am sure for some people the talk of divorce works fine, it did for my xMW.

[taylor]

So just toss an affair in there? What the heck? OMG!

 

No, you don't just toss an affair in there.

 

The key is to CHANGE the marriage before it gets to the point where an affair is able to permeate it.

 

Affairs don't make good marriages bad. Affairs make bad marriages worse. Regardless of whether there is an affair or not, the marriage isn't working. Not really.

 

And regardless of whether there is an affair or not, bad marriages can be turned around. That's all I am saying is that if there is an affair, it can be the event that forces the change that either turns the marriage around or initiates the divorce. If an affair ends an unhappy marriage, so be it. If an affair causes a couple to work harder to turn their unhappy marriage around, so be it, too.

[pkn06002]

If talk of divorce ends an unhappy marriage, so be it. If talk of divorce causes a couple to work harder to turn their unhappy marriage around, so be it too.

 

WITHOUT the damage to trust that an affair causes.

 

Again you are making that mental leap assuming people can just talk about divorce without detaching from the marriage pre-divorce discussion.

 

I know of people (one good friend) that started divorce then stopped it and had another good 10 years. But she does have a different perspective on how she views a relationship. I for one could not mentally start that process then pull back from it.

[pkn06002]

So you can take the mental steps to cheat on the marriage, yet not talk divorce in order to avoid the damage? Wow.

 

Of course, the damage was already done by your wife's treatment of you and your allowing of it over too long a period. So I guess it wouldn't really matter at that point.

 

As stated earlier the mental leap to have an affair is much easier then a divorce. It is a much "easier" option and if no on ever finds out no harm no foul.

[taylor]

So does talk of divorce WITHOUT the damage to trust.

 

Marriage = Decision to Commit = Decision to Love

 

Divorce = Decision to Free Oneself from Committment = Decision to Stop Loving = Permanent

 

Affair = Decision to Free Oneself from Committment = Decision to Stop Loving = Temporary

 

 

If my husband told me he was so unhappy in our marriage that he wanted a divorce, I wouldn't trust him. How could you continue to trust someone who tells you point blank they want out of the committment and have decided to stop loving you PERMANENTLY? How many couples go to divorce court trusting each other?

 

If he felt that strongly about "us" and wanted to throw the towel in, there's nothing I could do but throw the towel in, too, and get out of his way. There wouldn't be anything left to talk about. One of us would be packing our bags for good. And at that point the only person you have any choice but to trust is your divorce attorney.

[taylor]

Only if your spouse ALLOWS it to be temporary.

 

There are two people in a relationship, you know.

 

For the most part, affairs in and of themselves, are temporary. A few undiscovered ones can last for years, but most are short-lived and regretted.

 

Divorce, on the other hand, is permanent. Rarely does a divorced couple decide to recommit.

 

I know a man who married at 17 and filed for divorce at 23. Stayed single for 30 years. He tried to win her back but she moved on and remarried. He said divorcing his wife was the stupidest thing he ever did. PERMANENT.

 

I feel like pkn does. Once a spouse utters the divorce word, there's no turning back. It's like saying "I love you." You don't say it unless you absolutely mean it. Once the words are uttered, everything changes.

[carhill]

Once a spouse utters the divorce word, there's no turning back. It's like saying "I love you." You don't say it unless you absolutely mean it. Once the words are uttered, everything changes.

 

I agree with this. I never uttered the words (regarding divorce) until circumstances precipitated complete emotional detachment on my part. This was the only way I could regain any power or influence, by becoming the person who cared the least. Save for that, I was always at a disadvantage with a spouse who was emotionally distant and often absent. I pleaded my case for two years and then attended MC for one year. I think that was enough.

 

A LS'er once said "Find a woman you hate and buy her a house". I can amend that to "Find a woman you care nothing for and buy her a house "

[taylor]

There will always be SOMEONE who will cheer on the justification of an affair. A cheater.

 

Gosh, you sure like to use that winking smiley alot!

 

I don't see anyone justifying affairs on this thread.

 

It's a discussion about why WS would choose the affair route RATHER THAN the divorce route to deal with a troubled marriage.

 

It's not a discussion about what specific factors led to an affair or divorce.

 

Affairs are negative events, as are divorces. Both are also catalysts for change. Both are damaging to alot of people. Both kill love//respect/trust. Affairs are easier to "do" than divorce. You can turn a marriage around after an affair. Once divorced, there is nothing to turn around.

 

These are just simple facts or opinions. No justifications.

[taylor]

If my husband continued to utter the divorce word as we struggled to repair our half-lifeless marriage, I'd turn, walk away, and never come back.

 

I would consider that a form of emotional abuse.

[taylor]

I never uttered the words (regarding divorce) until circumstances precipitated complete emotional detachment on my part.

 

The day I checked out of my marriage emotionally is the day I truly felt like there was nothing I could do to turn it around. I gave up hope. I gave up. I grieved the loss. But I still couldn't utter the word "Divorce."

 

I chose to just stop caring. It made it easier to deal with the loss, but also made it easier for the affair to permeate. Indifference is definitely a marriage's worst enemy.

[Reggie]

Gosh, you sure like to use that winking smiley alot!

 

I don't see anyone justifying affairs on this thread.

 

It's a discussion about why WS would choose the affair route RATHER THAN the divorce route to deal with a troubled marriage.

 

It's not a discussion about what specific factors led to an affair or divorce.

 

Affairs are negative events, as are divorces. Both are also catalysts for change. Both are damaging to alot of people. Both kill love//respect/trust. Affairs are easier to "do" than divorce. You can turn a marriage around after an affair. Once divorced, there is nothing to turn around.

 

These are just simple facts or opinions. No justifications.

 

Where on earth did you come up with the idea that mention of divorce or actual divorce are permanent? There are tons of relationships where divorce has been discussed or actually instituted that survive. The characterization of mentioning or instituting divorce as final is merely your feeling on it. It is different for other people, just like the concept of repairing a marriage after an affair varies. Some can do it. Some cannot abide it.

I'd venture that the vast majority of BS's would be more ammenable to reviving a relationship where their spouse had divorced them or mentioned divorce vs cheated on them.

Therapist will tell you that both situations cause pain, but infidelity causes substantially more pain. There is plenty of literature on this.

[Lookingforward]

Once you stop caring, is it really a marriage at all except on paper ?

[Reggie]

If my husband continued to utter the divorce word as we struggled to repair our half-lifeless marriage, I'd turn, walk away, and never come back.

 

I would consider that a form of emotional abuse.

 

Wouldn't you consider infidelity emotional abuse? Were you abusive in this regard?

[carhill]

Once you stop caring, is it really a marriage at all except on paper ?

 

That's a good question, and one we worked on in MC. The gist of what I got from that work is, if we had a common ground and connection and love at the beginning, it is possible to build and develop a new relationship with that history as a basis. I will say it is exceedingly difficult to re-connect emotionally in our circumstances, but I see them as specific to us, rather than global as an embrace of the success or failure of the process. Even with the challenges, I have seen little bright spots of intimacy; glimpses of what the work is reaching for.

 

Therein lies the impetus for "leaving no stone unturned" in the marital recovery process before acceding to the process of divorce.

 

To be sure, any inappropriate attachments (MC's phrase, not mine) on either side would be negative signposts on the road to marital recovery, but I can report that bringing such out in the open and accepting responsibility can go a long way to resolving the issue. In my case, it helped my wife truly see how much I valued emotional intimacy and she can decide with open eyes whether she wants that kind of relationship (with me) going forward. Conversely, being fully aware of our critical perspective differences now (with the help of MC), I can decide whether and, if so, how much I want to bend to make progress in rebuilding our relationship.

 

As I often say when evaluating dementia patients, when you see one patient, you've seen one patient. It's the same with relationships. Each one is so unique.

 

A telling moment in MC was when the MC asked us essentially what is outlined in the OP here. "Why do you not take the option of divorce". My answer, without hesitation, was "fear". My wife said nothing. Therein lies our dynamic.

[agate]

This is a complicated subject, and one we will never all agree on. When i was married, years ago, my x brought up dev. and it killed the marriage. there was no longer any point in trying. As far as the question, is an A emotional abuse? it depends on the relationship. If the A Is the only thing keeping a ws sane and able to cope with the bs in the short term, then perhaps it isnt all bad. But if the ws rubs it in the bs face then its abuse. those in an A should be as respectful as possible.

[pkn06002]

I'd venture that the vast majority of BS's would be more ammenable to reviving a relationship where their spouse had divorced them or mentioned divorce vs cheated on them.

 

I will bet that most WS once they get to the point of mentioning divorce want NOTHING to do with reviving the relationship. They have mentally checked out and really want nothing to do with the other person. My xMW was all ready to leave her marriage, she was done. But her the fact she would be effecting her kids made her stay and give her husband another shot.

 

I too have read the threads where people save the marriage after divorce is discussed or even started. But those relationships are the exceptions not the rule. Tell you what most people that I know that have done just that get divorced 5-10 years later for the same reasons they originally wanted out for. They regret the fact they stayed in the relationship and wasted those extra years.

 

Why would a spouse even need to contemplate an event like divorce to force their spouse to act like they should've in the first place? Before you comment "is an affair the answer then", no it is not. As has been mentioned already the affair is an escape to cope with a crappy marriage.

 

It is always strikes me funny how BS's seem to think they are driving the bus when it comes to reviving the relationship. That they get to make all the decisions and call all the shots. Sorry once something like an affair or divorce discussion happens everyone is reinterviewing for the relationship.

 

Reggie let me ask you another question.

 

You mentioned in the other thread that your wife was a lot like mine and that you took abuse for a long time before getting divorced. What caused you to get divorced? Was it your proactive actions to get her to change or a response to her cheating?

[bentnotbroken]

This is a complicated subject, and one we will never all agree on. When i was married, years ago, my x brought up dev. and it killed the marriage. there was no longer any point in trying. As far as the question, is an A emotional abuse? it depends on the relationship. If the A Is the only thing keeping a ws sane and able to cope with the bs in the short term, then perhaps it isnt all bad. But if the ws rubs it in the bs face then its abuse. those in an A should be as respectful as possible.

 

 

NOT possible. An A is disrespect at it's highest form. I appears that the belief that an A is the only way to stay in a bad marriage or to deal with everyday drudgery or as justification of selfish needs, is a viable alternative to adult mature behavior is just plain juvenile. It is short sided, irresponsible, and wrong. How do the kids cope? What do I tell my kids about the choices of their father that will make them not hate him anymore than they already do? I am aware that many think that children have no say so, no emotion and are too stupid to know what is going on, but maybe they ought to try to find out what the kids really do know.

 

It is easy to do the thing that feels the best to us, it is easy to find a reason to do what feels the best. It is hard and requires character of steel to resist. But for those who can't, but find they aren't happy with the choice that they made and are looking to rebuild a stonger, charcter, it can be done.

[Reggie]

I will bet that most WS once they get to the point of mentioning divorce want NOTHING to do with reviving the relationship. They have mentally checked out and really want nothing to do with the other person. My xMW was all ready to leave her marriage, she was done. But her the fact she would be effecting her kids made her stay and give her husband another shot.

 

I too have read the threads where people save the marriage after divorce is discussed or even started. But those relationships are the exceptions not the rule. Tell you what most people that I know that have done just that get divorced 5-10 years later for the same reasons they originally wanted out for. They regret the fact they stayed in the relationship and wasted those extra years.

 

Why would a spouse even need to contemplate an event like divorce to force their spouse to act like they should've in the first place? Before you comment "is an affair the answer then", no it is not. As has been mentioned already the affair is an escape to cope with a crappy marriage.

 

It is always strikes me funny how BS's seem to think they are driving the bus when it comes to reviving the relationship. That they get to make all the decisions and call all the shots. Sorry once something like an affair or divorce discussion happens everyone is reinterviewing for the relationship.

 

Reggie let me ask you another question.

 

You mentioned in the other thread that your wife was a lot like mine and that you took abuse for a long time before getting divorced. What caused you to get divorced? Was it your proactive actions to get her to change or a response to her cheating?

 

Pk, the infidelity was the final straw , from my perspective, in a long history of abuse. It was a blessing, if I look at it rationally. I checked out of my marriage a few years earlier, detaching as recommended in the reading I'd done on dealing with the personality disorderd.

At the time I detached, I did not know I was doing it, it wa instinctive, a self preservation method. MY wife would repeatedly douse me with freezing cold water when i showered in the morning. She would call me a POS if I accidentally bumped into her. SHe called me a woman and told me I had no male genitals. She treated my sons, one with a severe disability, her stepsons, like dirt and I , like a coward, allowed this to happen. I would take my boys with me at all times and get out of the house to avoid her abuse. And, the silent treatments-don't get me started.

I can sympathize with your lonlieness and desperation dealing with what appears to be a similarly disordered wife. Many of the things you describe, the discounting your opinions, the relegation to second class citizen status, being treated like an outsider in family decisions.

Like your wife, my wife was incapable of compromise and she never, ever apooogized for anything in our 10 year marriage.

I took way too long in getting to the point of divorcing. I needed to detach for a while, to get my strenght, but i did it way too long, well past the point where I should have taken action.

I suggest you read up on Borderline and Narcissistic personality disorders too see if your wife fits the criteria. You may have doubts and may think it is all you and that you are the disordered one. This is because after living with this monstrous disorder for years, you are beaten down, brainwashed inot thinking everything is your fault.

I can understand the desire to cheat and get away, I can. But, I do take responsibility for being a doormat and having an underdeveloped sense of entitlement.

Nice thing about co-dependency, if that is what this is, as opposed to a personality disorder is that it is treatable and you can overcome it. But, if you are truly in a relationship with an abusing, personality disordered spouse, you need to get out and take care of yourself.

Men in these abusive relationships are viewed with skepticism re what they have been through. But, there is now, finally, a lot of literature based on studies about just how prevalent abuse by women is.

Check out www.bpdfamily.com and read "Stop Walking on Eggshells".