Long:Thinking about opening up my marriage...

[waitingfordaddylongl]

I actually thought that having the affair would fix things because then I wouldn't have to rely on him to give me what I want. If he is okay with it,then why not? Because he will end up resenting me? He might...and what's more he might actually be forced to talk about us.

[Geishawhelk]

But why do such a thing? It's disrespectful and selfish. I know you feel you have a right to do this, but actually, really, you don't. because of your Motive.

remember what Holding on said in her post. Go back and read it, and see what the similarities between her situation and yours, are.

 

None.

 

That's why this really is not the way forward.

[Owl]

I actually thought that having the affair would fix things because then I wouldn't have to rely on him to give me what I want. If he is okay with it,then why not? Because he will end up resenting me? He might...and what's more he might actually be forced to talk about us.

 

If you explain the FULL situation to him...your attraction towards her, your feelings for her, etc...and then he still agrees its ok...he's had his chance to provide you his input and take whatever measures he thinks he needs to take to safegaurd his marriage.

 

But, if you lie to him by not giving him the FULL, COMPLETE information of what's going on...your feelings, her feelings, the attraction, what you're contemplating with her, etc.... then you'd be responsible for that lie, and it truly would be the beginning of a full-fledged affair.

 

And...you're right...if you're up front completely about all of this, it well may be the "eye opener" he needs to see how badly the the two of you need to talk.

[waitingfordaddylongl]

No, I think she would rather speak with you face to face than leave it to writing mails. Communication ius largely body languge, and i think she tried to be clear in her mail, but wants to compound her comments more gently F2F....

Also I think it's a good idea to discuss this away from prying ears. It safeguards your privacy and dignity, and hers too. In some circles, it's not the kind of thing you want others to overhear.....

 

That's just my take....

 

 

But, she doesn't have to tell me face to face. I told her in my initial email that I knew she might not be interested...I said that we couldn't be friends because I didn't think I could be around her. She is the one trying to meet with me once again. I didn't ask her to meet with me. I even asked why she would want to spend time with me considering how I feel about her. Wouldn't it make sense to stay away instead of telling me that she will miss me if I'm not in her life. As I told you before, she keeps trying to stay in contact with me.

Backstory: We met last February when she approached me at an after party for a special lecture series. We became fast friends and spent a lot of time together until June when I just dropped off her radar. I realized that I had feelings for her and I wanted to cut them off. I was trying to be responsible. She kept emailing me over the summer, even though I intentionally took weeks to respond. She asked me to hang out last week. She asked me to dinner next week. So, why would it be necessary to take me out just to say: I'm really not interested?

I don't know if she is; but why keep trying to hold on to someone you haven't even known for a full year? She has other friends so whe isn't desperate.

[Lizzie60]

Your husband is obviously 'lazy' about your relationship.. he rather eats and watches his porn..

 

You have no more physical attraction for him.. you are more like 'roomates', best friends.

 

He said you could have sex on the side, he set up some rules, fine.. he said that a woman didn't count.. fine.. it DOESN'T count.. right?

 

You are physically attracted to this woman... you are great friends... she likes you a lot.. methink she is also curious (sexually) about the relationship.

 

She could be willing to try a sexual relationship with you.

 

Now..

the problems..

 

1) you could fall head over heels for her.

2) this could push her away.. she might NOT like it and your friendship would be awkward after that.

3) she could fall head over heels for you... then ask you to leave your H.

 

OR

 

maybe it will be all good and the sex will be amazing.. and you'll ALL be happy.... who knows?

 

Some polyamourous relationships ARE successful.. it's not necessarily a recipe for disaster... it could go very well...

[Lizzie60]

I just read your last post.. I think she is definitely interested..

 

Now she knows how you feel about her.. if she still insist to meet you face to face.. methink she also has feelings for you..

[Owl]

Lizzie, it aint often that I agree with you...

 

...but as long as she's got her husband's completely informed 'consent'...after that, its all on him if it does go bad.

[Lizzie60]

You often tell me that 'it ain't often that you agree with me"

 

He's OK with it.. he doesn't seem to give a cr*p about her.. tough for him.. too bad.. I have no patience for 'lazy' partner...

 

If I were her.. I would go for it.. but guarding myself not to fall head over heels unless I'm certain about HER feelings as well..

[waitingfordaddylongl]

About the H..

I am going to try to talk to him about everything this weekend. I won't wimp out

 

About crush...I don't think it's as cut and dry as all that. I lied when I said I didn't think she was interested. All the things in the first few posts about her, and in that last post make me think that she has feelings for me too, but here's the kicker: I don't think she knows or is willing to admit that she has those kinds of feelings towards me. (you saw how she over analyzes things..she is destined to be an academic after all)

She may never admit it, and nothing is going to happen unless she can admit it to herself first.

 

I don't go chasing my friends around. If I met a friend and they blew me off in in the same year I would get over it. I keep trying to push her away and she won't let me.

She also hasn't told me about any dates since we've been friends. She says the men in the city live and go to school in are too barbaric.

 

quote from an email she sent last summer:

we haven't seen each other in a long while but I have been thinking about you from time to time ...

[Lizzie60]

Methink you'll end up in bed with her..

 

I want to know all the juicy details.. lol

[waitingfordaddylongl]

Lizzie,

 

if that ever happens, then I willl be sure to post an update on here, even though I know I will end up catching flack for it.

[Lizzie60]

Post an update.. even if you don't end up in bed with her.. I'm curious about what she thinks..

[frannie]

Excerpts from her email to me:

There are a lot of ideas that crossed my mind after reading your email. It triggered a whole lot of thoughts, i.e. about the distinctions of the mental/ physical, of what distinguishes friendship from partnership/sexual relation, being reasonable vs. impulsive and to indulge in feelings.

She has a tendency to overthink things.

 

 

If you want to know what my spontaneous feelings were, I felt flattered by your deep affection.

 

 

Maybe we could meet and talk about all this

 

I still feel close to you. Obviously, in friendship there must be something that causes mutual attraction.

 

I still like you and I appreciated the moments we had together a lot and would regret wholeheartedly if there weren't any more to come.

 

She is obviously not interested, but I still have feelings for her.

So, I have been left with my feelings and no source of temptation.

I'm not even really upset about it because I respect her even more now. Would anyone else like to weigh in?

 

 

"I still like you and I appreciated the moments we had together a lot and would regret wholeheartedly if there weren't any more to come."

 

Um. Maybe I'm misreading completely (not unlikely), but to me this is far from 'not interested'. For crying out loud. It reads like the tantalising prelude to much more to come.

 

With that in mind, you're heading for a huge disaster in which three people are miserably entangled in something that could have been avoided, OR a fabulously thrilling time which makes you feel alive and glad you lived (depending on one's perspective).

 

Sanity would suggest: talking to your husband fully about the danger he (and you) are putting your marriage in.

[waitingfordaddylongl]

I am going to talk to my husband this weekend. I haven't quite worked out exactly what I'm going to say yet, but I am going to talk to him first.

Then, I am going to meet with her next week or the week after to discuss things. I think I might want to leave it a week off just to let the dust settle a little with her and my husband. I just shared a lot with her and I don't want to move so fast that I scare her off; I also want to give my husband to really think about it. But, I am definitely going to talk to him about everything that's going on.

 

Frannie...I didn't change any of the sentences that I excerpted from her email. The line you quoted was the last line from the message she sent me. I have never had a female friend talk to me the way she does, or write the things she has written to me. Everything I get from her is right on the edge of...

But, maybe it means what I think it means, or, maybe it's a cultural thing. She is from Frankfurt. Do girls from Germany have a different standard of emotional intercourse with one another? I'm not talking about sex, but in terms of friendship: is it okay to say "I think about you a lot", or "I would regret if we weren't able to have more experiences together"?

I guess I'm trying to determine if this a unique situation, meaning that she is interested.

 

A few years back (before I was married) I had an interesting cultural clash with a male PhD student from France. I was an undergrad and he was a Post-Doc when we met. We exchanged numbers and when he called to ask me out he asked if he should bring something or come natural...you know what I thought he was talking about, right? Turns out that where he came from the men are supposed to take little gifts like flowers, or sweets on first dates. He didn't know if the custom was the same here as it was back home so he was asking if I wanted a treat, and I thought he was asking if he should bring condoms. That was totally off track...

Back to the present.

I am going to meet with her at some point and I will put updates on this board so that we can discuss how much trouble I may, or may not be getting myself into.

[whichwayisup]

Lizzie,

 

if that ever happens, then I willl be sure to post an update on here, even though I know I will end up catching flack for it.

 

Actually you won't. If it happens, start a thread about it in the sex section. LS folks like details!

[Holding-On]

Thank you for the correction, HO. That was information I didn't know.

 

I'm most curious how you would feel if your H came to you with the OP's story? (sounds as though she's already "in love")

 

How do you keep safeguards in place to ensure that your partner DOES remain your priority?

 

I'm having trouble imagining how you meant my husband coming to me with the OPs story.

 

This is hard to explain. I have to admit when I search my soul that I don't assume anything about my marriage. I have said before that I am wired weird. Jealousy just isn't in my nature. Loving to me implies sharing. Not sharing to the point of pain or debasement but sharing. Monogamous people also see this but their point of pain is at a different place. or so it seems to me.

 

If my husband was to meet someone who was his soulmate, real and for certain, I cannot imagine that she/he would not be poly since that is all he dates.

 

If she/he was poly then I would certainly expect us to continue sharing as before. I would be quite happy to change living arrangements after our children were all grown up. If I liked and trusted her/him I might enjoy living with her/him also.

 

If he was to meet a non-poly person and that person was truly one of the "great loves" of the world for him, then I would think that she/he would be a truly great enough person to wait to be with him full time until his children are grown up. Truthfully I cannot imagine monogamy working for him but I'd give him my best love and hope and send a gift to the wedding.

 

If his lover was not enough of a good person to put his committment to his children and his love of me in high priority then I would point out this flaw in character pretty quick.

If he was to choose to simply dash off and leave us behind then yes, of course, I would be as disappointed in him as anyone in a conventional marriage.

 

It is hard to put into words but I guess I am saying that I am my own person. I am responsible for my life and its happiness. I see my husband as a great blessing that has been gifted me. If I lose him I will be grateful for all he has given me (didn't have too, not really). I don't have expectations of growing old together I have great hopes. But I have friends, health, family (both immediate and extended), a great job, causes I volunteer at, a wonderful city to live in with a good climate and much beauty. So I have a great deal beside my husband in my life.

[waitingfordaddylongl]

Update:

 

I talked to H this weekend. Told him about being sexually frustrated, and also about him shutting me out and not wanting to talk about things. We agreed to work on the talking thing and that includes discussing sex.

He is on-board with me meeting crush this week. He's not exactly jumping for joy, but he hasn't asked me not to. He doesn't feel like he has the right to ask me not to hear what she has to do when he told me this was okay before, plus he has met her and likes her a lot...If it has to be anyone else, he's glad it is her.

Also...he has been more amorous lately.

 

Crush...

I almost thought she changed her mind about meeting up because I hadn't heard from her since Wednesday.

She emailed me today. She said she saw my H and I in town on Saturday but didn't come over to say hi. She asked about dinner on Saturday and said maybe we could go out for drinks and a talk after. I thought we were going to talk over dinner.

She even suggested that we could have drinks in a hotel bar if the regular bars were full on Saturday....wtf? Does that mean she's thinking about more than drinks?

I'm not getting ahead of myself, but...could drinks at a hotel bar be her way of sending me a signal? And, why should we have dinner and drinks if she's not interested in being more than friends?

I really don't know what to expect, but I will keep you informed.

[Owl]

Just make sure you keep your husband fully informed...and included on any decisions being made.

[waitingfordaddylongl]

I have talked to him about it, and if he asks me to step-back right now I will but if he doesn't...he knows what might happen.

Although I don't expect anything to happen on Saturday, I do think it's interesting that she suggested going to a hotel lounge afterwards. I'm probably reading too much into it.

[Owl]

I have talked to him about it, and if he asks me to step-back right now I will but if he doesn't...he knows what might happen.

Although I don't expect anything to happen on Saturday, I do think it's interesting that she suggested going to a hotel lounge afterwards. I'm probably reading too much into it.

 

I'm curious...because reading what you posted earlier, it appears to me that the only reason he's "allowing" it is because he didn't want to renege on an agreement made prior...but he's showed you that he's not really "happy" with this at all either.

 

And he's agreed to make changes.

 

Why would you WANT to go forward with this if you know that he's likely to be hurt...if at the least you know that he's unhappy with your choice, and making changes to fix the situation...but you're still seriously considering pursuing this?

 

It sounds to me like he's NOT happy with the idea at all...he's GRUDGINGLY agreeing to it because he feels like he's got no other choice but to "allow" it.

 

This sets the stage for disaster.

 

I suspect that you already know this, but you really WANT to do this, and are intending to go forward with it if she's willing...REGARDLESS of how he FEELS on the subject.

 

Its not what he SAYS that matters here...its what you KNOW.

 

Do you really and truly feel he's ok with this...or is he feeling like he's got no choice in the matter?

[Kukulkan]

Lizzie,

 

if that ever happens, then I willl be sure to post an update on here, even though I know I will end up catching flack for it.

 

As you should, you come on here ostensibly seeking advice - you get multiple posts with sound advice yet you seem to be trying to rationalize anything that doesn't align with what you want. It certainly sounds like your relationship with your H is no picnic, but if that is the case you should either decide it's worth saving and make the effort or just move on. My impression of you is that you're an extremely selfish person, and you're just here looking for rationalization/justification for what you already intend to do.

 

This is one of the most convoluted leaps of logic I think I've seen in regards to relationships in some time, "I don't get enough sex from my H, so I'm going to start a lesbian love affair." Yeesh, just come out of the closet already and get on with your life - why do that to your H?

[waitingfordaddylongl]

Reply:

To the last poster...take a chill pill. I mean seriously you don't know me so you are not qualified to make a judgment call. You can offer advice, but you don't know me or my situation well enough to call me selfish. No-one on this board knows me well enough to say that. You can believe that I am acting selfishly, and perhaps I am, but I think I am perfectly justified in being selfish every now and then after putting others ahead of myself (family, friends, boyfriends, husband) all of my life. I make no apologies to you or anyone else on this board for my behaviour. Even if people come on this board for suggestions and help, at the end of the day they are going to do whatever it is that they really want to do. Nothing anyone online says is going to change that. It is obvious that you have a lot of anger, I have a lot of anger too but I'm not directing it at you. I am dealing with my problems in an honest manner. I am being honest and upfront with the people in my life and moving on from there. Maybe the person who you hurt or that hurt you wasn't so honest, either way it wasn't my fault.

 

BTW: I am not a lesbian. I might be bi...I really don't know yet.

I am not attracted to other women, just her.The physical attraction grew out of the attraction to her personality and a desire for more intimacy.

I have never been attracted to a person who wasn't intellectual and didn't have a great personality; male or female. I would have to prefer women to be pigeonholed as a lesbian; I don't. I don't look at other women and think oh she's hot, I don't look at other men like that either though. Some people are physically attractive, but that doesn't make me want to jump in bed with them.

I became attracted to my husband after I got to know what he was like. I really didn't think about him sexually until after I got to know his heart and then I fell for him. He was a different person back then.

 

Update for everyone else:

 

Moving on.......

Crush and I went to dinner last night and talked. We really talked, and that's all that happened. We were together from 7p.m. till 12:30.

Dinner, an after dinner drink at a lounge and a 30 minute walk 12:00- 12:30(still talking) after that. Remember that the after dinner drinks were her idea, and so was the walk. She really didn't seem to want the evening to end without some sort of resolution.

 

The evening started with dinner and light topics (updates, gossip), topics completely unrelated to the situation at hand...and then progressed f to more serious topics (politics, law). She and I have a lot in common even though we have different backgrounds; we can talk about anything. We don't have to agree with one another to be friends, we never did; this is one of the reasons we were such good friends right away.

 

During our last hour together (11:30-12:30) we discussed the real reason for our meeting: the email and what that means for our friendship.

She said that she was happy about it (knowing how I felt) and that it was a good thing in the sense that she was happy to know that she could inspire such positive emotions in another person. She said that she had kind of gone throught the whole progression of our friendship in her mind (thinking back to when we first met and all the time we spent together over the first 6 months we were friends)and could understand how this could happen, even though a crush like this is more likely to happen in a male-female friendship. Even with all that she never offered judgment about my feelings, her only criticism was about what she called my 'irrational' decision. She said my decision to tell her how I felt was not irrational, but called my attempt to end our friendship irrational. I was surprised that she felt so strongly about it because I thought I was giving her an easy out. This was something we disagreed about. Apparently, she would rather have a complicated friendship with me than no friendship at all. And, I felt it would be easier to get rid of the complications and just let the relationship go.

She was upset about the prospect of no longer being friends and said she would miss me. I really don't know under what circumstances my decision to stop being her friend given how I feel about her would be considered irrational, but those were her words.

She said that Europeans look at things differently and that friendships are very important to them. According to her, Europeans tend to remain friends even when things get very compilcated and messy, even with their ex's, and she has a few ex's (boyfriends, lovers) with whom she is still good friends. Letting me go is very difficult for her because she doesn't believe in ending friendships. I think she might have issues with letting go of relationships in general.

Bright note: She said that learning about my feelings for her confirmed her estimation of me in her mind: that I was a great person, great friend and someone she wanted to keep in her life if at all possible. She said that she still liked me and wanted to remain friends.

That's all I got.

[Geishawhelk]

Good.

Now move on, and deal with the relationship problems with you and your husband.

[frannie]

She said my decision to tell her how I felt was not irrational, but called my attempt to end our friendship irrational. I was surprised that she felt so strongly about it because I thought I was giving her an easy out. This was something we disagreed about. Apparently, she would rather have a complicated friendship with me than no friendship at all. And, I felt it would be easier to get rid of the complications and just let the relationship go.

She was upset about the prospect of no longer being friends and said she would miss me. I really don't know under what circumstances my decision to stop being her friend given how I feel about her would be considered irrational, but those were her words.

She said that Europeans look at things differently and that friendships are very important to them. According to her, Europeans tend to remain friends even when things get very compilcated and messy, even with their ex's, and she has a few ex's (boyfriends, lovers) with whom she is still good friends. Letting me go is very difficult for her because she doesn't believe in ending friendships. I think she might have issues with letting go of relationships in general.

 

Hmm. Maybe it's because I'm 'European' lol but I see her point entirely. I also live with one ex and am good friends with another .

 

Why would you want to drop a friend because of 'complications'? She's clearly telling you that it's no problem for her. You get on well together, stimulate each other intellectually, and can spend quality time together without having to leap into bed and express things sexually. At least on her part. So why make her out to have 'issues with letting go'?

 

Maybe there are no issues at all here and you and she just have very different ways of looking at things? Of course there's also the fact that she doesn't feel the need to have sex with you (even if she likes the idea), so of course it's going to be less of a 'complication' for her.

 

I still think the biggest problem here is that your marriage is all to pot and needs sorting out. If you were happy with him, you could probably enjoy many 'platonic' evenings with your friend too.

[Goldstar]

Reply:

Bright note: She said that learning about my feelings for her confirmed her estimation of me in her mind: that I was a great person, great friend and someone she wanted to keep in her life if at all possible. She said that she still liked me and wanted to remain friends.

That's all I got.

 

 

I have been following your thread. I agree with the other posters that you need to work on your marriage. These feelings you developed are definately a red-flag. I don't think you would have noticed your friend so forcefully if things were okay at home. I understand exactly where you are coming from on this.

 

That being said, I am sorry you are not going to get the lady you wanted. It is very difficult to want something so badly and find out it was all one-sided. Yes, you still have declarations of friendship, but I know that's not what you ultimately wanted.

 

I was recently in a similar situation. I can tell you that your initial efforts to pull away were the healthiest thing at the time for you. I think you need to pull away now too. The friendship will still be there, but with time the feelings will start to go away.

 

In all honesty, if you cannot let the feelings go, you probably need to let go of the friendship. A psuedo-friendship is not what you want.

 

It has taken me three months to let go of my feelings, and it has been incredibly difficult. Thank goodness for LS and the NC information!

 

I still have the friendship too, but that's not what I wanted either. Good luck to you. It does get better.