W or OW

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Do you want her to make the decision Confoozed?

[Owl]

-----------

 

I know, crazy, huh? I know I don't deserve it. Guess I'm just lucky. Funny thing is if she wasn't so damn forgiving, I wouldn't have to wonder what to do.

 

LOL...my wife said pretty much the exact same thing shortly after d-day in our situation!!!!

[Confoozed]

whichwayisup...30,000 posts...? Are you kidding me? Do you have a job?

 

Just kidding. I think I'll take your advice. Thanks.

[Confoozed]

Do you want her to make the decision Confoozed?

 

---

 

No, that wouldn't be fair to her. I just gotta grow some balls and decide what I want, and get on with it.

[whichwayisup]

Yes, I'm pathetic..

 

And yes, take my advice. You owe her the truth, you owe yourself to finally admit things that you've been pushing away. Honestly, you have nothing to lose by laying it ALL out on the line and confessing it ALL. Especially during marriage counselling.. Oh and I do hope you are going to use the same marriage counsellor for yourself, you NEED to go on on your own as well.

[whichwayisup]

I just gotta grow some balls and decide what I want, and get on with it.

Problem is, you still think the OW's sheeyot doesn't stink and in your eyes, she's "IT." When your mind clears, the affairyland fog lifts, you'll be feeling much different.

 

Please go read MattieM's threads. I will try to find you the link.

[whichwayisup]

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/search.php?searchid=5617617

 

In this link should show all three of his threads. Please read and get comfy coz they're long.. Hopefully his situation will shed some insight and be able to help you out.

[jwi71]

To expand on Owl's above...

 

Block her username on all IM. Block her emails from coming in (if you use outlook you can do it). Block her numbers...all of them on your home and cell phones.

 

Now...give your email password and IM info to your W. You are required to print out everything everyday and give it to your W. You are required to give her unlimited, unedited and unfettered access at her whim. She wakes you up at 3AM to check your email...tough. You lost your right to privacy. You want your M to work...your life is an open book. Your W may, at her whim, change your email password so you no longer have access unless your W is present.

 

Take your cell phone and hand it to your W. Lost it buddy, you can have it back when your W trusts you. If this is not possible due to work... then you swap cell phones with your wife. You carry hers and she carries yours. Your OW tries to call - she is in for one helluva surprise. If that isnt possible (like me, no way I can update everyone) then you are required to sign up for detailed billing. You are required to print said billing upon your W's request.

 

You are required to divulge all of your OW contact info. This is so your W can match numbers on the above cell phones and check for items in your email to her.

 

You should purchase a keylogger and have it installed on all home PCs. You are required to give these logs to your W.

 

If you want your M to work...these are powerful steps you can take. They are obvious and verifiable. My W offered me all of this. She still does it. I cannot tell you powerful that was for me. Offer it. Do it even if she declines. Give her no reasons to not trust and believe that you will do whatever it takes to win her back.

 

Do it for as long as your W demands it.

 

**EDIT**

 

Of course, if you want out, get a good lawyer and forget the above.

[whichwayisup]

That's the problem, with his frame of mind right now, he's incapable of making any real decision. Hopefully the marriage counsellor will help with this and get him in the right direction, right path. Right now he's waivering back and forth.

[Reggie]

Your defense of cheaters hints that you may be one yourself (just kidding...you actually sound very level headed).

 

I also know of some couples that survived affairs but I'm afraid they're few and far between. The success stories seem to fall into two catagories. As you mentioned, counseling and a true commitment from the spouse that cheated to stop permanently and those that stay out of convenience. I think what rubbed me wrong about the poster's story is his unwillingness to stop the affair despite his wife's kind and generous offer of forgiveness. As a victim (and I do take offense to your insinuation that I was somehow to blame...trust me no one treated their spouse as well as I did. Through therapy my ex has discovered that deep seated self esteem/ego issues going back to childhood pushed her into serial cheating) I fear this guy's wife is setting herself up for future pain and disappointments. Had the poster presented his case as more of a "how do I fix this?" instead of a "gee...who do I choose" I'd be a lot more sympathetic.

 

Venting? Possibly but I sure wish someone had said these things to me years ago. I always assumed she would be "cured." Wasted years...wasted years...

 

This is very well put and thought out. Despite the claims of a "stronger marriage" post affair, from what I've read and the therapists I've spoken to, this is , largely , a myth. Seems the unbiased research shows that recovery from infidelity is, actually, quite rare. If they do not divorce, the couple limps along for the duration in many relatioships. Of course there may be problems in the marriage pre A. But, laying this type of hit on a betrayed spouse as a response to a problem, just does too much damage.

And, I agree. This was not a plea for help with the cheater's problems. The presentation was more like someone trying to make a choice between ice cream flavors. There was no empathy for the wife's pain. He did this multiple times for God's sake. Guy lacks compassion and empathy, hallmarks of the disordered.

[frannie]

This is like a drug addiction. There is one way to treat it...cold turkey NC. FOREVER.

 

And...your response will be EXACTLY like dealing with a drug addiction. You'll go through a period of withdrawl...and the symptoms will be just like those of an addiction as well. Doubt, hurt, anger...you'll fight to find ways to get a "fix" of her during that time. But just like that drug...if you DON'T get that fix...then over time, the symptoms fade, she gets "out of your system"...and you begin to return to the person you were BEFORE you started the affair.

 

You start seeing and thinking clearly again. You finally SEE what you've done, how you've hurt those around you...and you want to fix things.

 

I don't disagree at all with this advice as how to remove yourself from an affair, no doubt it's possible, and works.

 

I would however say, that the OP has said more than once that he never had that 'spark' with his W. So, what I'm saying is, that even if NC is put in place and maintained, and the OW goes off and has a life without him and becomes just a dim memory that can be largely ignored... that's not, perhaps, the real issue. The real issue is that the OP now knows that that 'spark' is possible with someone, and he's not getting it with his W, and what's more has stated that he never has. To me, this is critical. Because will he always be longing for that spark (if not the OW herself)... and isn't that incredibly dangerous?

[IfWishesWereHorses]

I would however say, that the OP has said more than once that he never had that 'spark' with his W.

 

The OP has never had an affair with his wife.

[Reggie]

I think it's unlikely he never had the spark of attraction to his wife. I know he says that now, but he is comparing the excitement of the affair with his current perception of what his marriage was always like. This is very common. There is a strong tendency for the WS to do this for a couple reasons.

First and foremost, there is the ego's need to protect itself from the realization that he has done something which violates his values and morals. So, there is a search for justification to preserve one's self image. I think it is very common for someone doing this , protecting the ego, to discount the marriage and the sparkthat once existed.

Second, and this is really obvious, but a long term marriage cannot possibly sustain the level of excitement that is present in an affair. Bills, mortgage, kids, etc. just rain on that parade too frequently, So, it seems there was no spark, ever. But it is highly unlikely that a person marries someone that he feels no spark for.I think the lack of spark perception is questionable.

[frannie]

Yes, it's hard to know what exactly it consists, of, and really only the OP is in a position to know that, and he has made attempts to distinguish 'mature love' from what he feels with the OW.

 

How much of it is due to the circumstances (it being an affair rather than 'normal' dating situation), how much to the fact of a better 'connection' with this particular woman, which the OP never shared with his W..? That's not easy to know, and especially not for us who are on the outside.

 

I loved my wife and she loved me, we're both good parents who have raised two great kids, and we were also very good friends. But two years ago, I fell for the OW. We connected in a way my wife and I never did, and it just kept getting better and better. Lots of laughs, deep affection and caring, amazing sex, and fantasizing together about a future.

[Owl]

I don't disagree at all with this advice as how to remove yourself from an affair, no doubt it's possible, and works.

 

I would however say, that the OP has said more than once that he never had that 'spark' with his W. So, what I'm saying is, that even if NC is put in place and maintained, and the OW goes off and has a life without him and becomes just a dim memory that can be largely ignored... that's not, perhaps, the real issue. The real issue is that the OP now knows that that 'spark' is possible with someone, and he's not getting it with his W, and what's more has stated that he never has. To me, this is critical. Because will he always be longing for that spark (if not the OW herself)... and isn't that incredibly dangerous?

 

Frannie, one of the most common "first steps" a WS takes in their own mind is to re-write the marital history in their own mind to justify the affair.

 

My wife did it too. She'd not been happy in YEARS. She'd not been in love with me for YEARS.

 

As the affair ended, and she got through withdrawl, that timeframe kept changing, getting shorter and shorter until it all matched what the rest of us knew to be true. Its kind of a mental 'self defense' mechanism...it allows them to mentally justify their actions, to themselves most of all.

 

I don't believe anything said along these lines by someone involved in an affair...I wait and see what's said AFTER the affair is over and fog starts to clear.

 

If the spark was never there...for real...then they would have never stayed married as long as they did.

 

It also depends on what he's calling "that spark". If he's talking about the tinglies you get during the "in love" stage of any relationship...those don't last forever anyway. Read chapter #3 of "The Five Love Languages"...it gives a great explanation of all of this.

 

The ONLY way for the OP to sort out what he feels or not is to go NC.

 

Hey...if its "true love"...then it won't matter...right? A year later, 10 years later, he'll still feel that way and he can always go back to the OW. But, if he goes NC with her now, and it DOES fade in six months to a year...

[misternoname]

I'd like to add one more thought to this discussion. Obviously this thread was started by the cheating spouse. Most of the comments are appropriately aimed at his perspective.

 

As a spouse that was cheated on, I'd like to share thoughts with other "victims." While it's very difficult for the cheater to address and fix their issue I believe that many times the cheated on spouse's issues are set aside and to some extent ignored.

 

I've said over and over again how I forgave and tried to forget but I think I'm being disingenous. After her first affair, not a day went by that I didn't think about it. Over the years it turned me into a paranoid, unconfident person. Visions of them together would pop up in my head at odd moments. It could ruin an entire day. My point? I'm not sure what kind of person can endure the post affair aftermath. I kept trying so hard to make things work that I actually forgot about MY happiness. Do I miss my wife? Absolutely! Do I still love her? Of course. Now that our marriage is coming to an end do I regret anything? Yes...I regret not having the courage to have gotten out a long time ago.

 

Life is too damn short to live a tortured existence. I hope cheaters that read this understand the damage they cause. I also hope if someone out there that hasn't cheated but someday has the opportunity arise to think twice. It's so hurtful...if you truly love your SO, don't create a situation that could ruin lives. Think before you "dink!"

[KismetGirl]

For those who are wondering, yes, we've been to see a MC. A few times now. The counsellor says she thinks the marriage is "eminently fixable". I've been mostly forthcoming, but not completely. I've been holding back admitting I'm still hung up on the OW. My wife doesn't want to hear that and she sure as hell doesn't want to hear I'm going through withdrawls.

 

The way my wife sees it is she gave me a chance a year ago and if I'd done then what I should have, I'd be over her by now. She has as much she won't give me time to get over her. And for her own self esteem, she also doesn't want to hear that it's such a hard choice for me. Bottom line is she's all but lost her patience with me.

 

I think if I could come out with it and admit that I'm "addicted" and am going through withdrawls, and know that she would accept that if I promised absolutely no contact (which is in fact where I'm at already), then that would go a long way toward healing both of us.

 

But I fear she has indeed lost her patience with me and that such an admission will spell the end.

 

We have an appointment to see our MC next weekend. Think I should admit my addiction and withdrawl in that forum? I'm thinking I might.

 

Maybe you should suggest that you and your W speak with the MC individually. Say that people often feel nervous expressing themselves appropriately in the presence of others and you want both her and you to have a chance to say everything to the MC and then bring it out together in a session with all three of you so that the MC can facilitate bringing this information to light in a way that your W can handle. What do you think?

[JamesM]

 

The OP has never had an affair with his wife.

 

Well said!

 

Frannie, one of the most common "first steps" a WS takes in their own mind is to re-write the marital history in their own mind to justify the affair.

 

 

Again, very true. I have read it here, and heard it in real life. For someone to justify an affair, they must place the blame elsewhere. Just as many victims of WS see no reason to accept blame for the affair, so the BS cannot see that he or she did not simply fall into an affair as if it were a trap. Rewriting history solves the problem.

 

a long term marriage cannot possibly sustain the level of excitement that is present in an affair. Bills, mortgage, kids, etc. just rain on that parade too frequently, So, it seems there was no spark, ever. But it is highly unlikely that a person marries someone that he feels no spark for.I think the lack of spark perception is questionable.

 

And the sad part is that for 99.9% of those who use this justification and forget the future, these cheaters end up repeating their past. And then when the mundane tasks of life take over the fantasy, then they realize that they threw away the best person in their life....the one they divorced. By then it is too late, because the divorced partner now realizes from whom he or she escaped.

 

 

I've said over and over again how I forgave and tried to forget but I think I'm being disingenous. After her first affair, not a day went by that I didn't think about it. Over the years it turned me into a paranoid, unconfident person. Visions of them together would pop up in my head at odd moments. It could ruin an entire day.

 

While I do step up in defense of cheaters at times, this pain cannot be ignored. I have an email friend whose husband cheated on her. She chose to stay with him, but she tells me that even after three years, the memories come up at odd times. And sadly, they DO ruin her day. But he (thankfully) has done everything he can do to make her day better and to reassure her that he is sorry.

 

I agree...if every guy who thinks of cheating can really understand the pain before he takes that step into perceived pleasure, then maybe he would ask just one more time..."Is this person worth more to me than my partner? Is the pleasure here worth the pain that I ...or she..will experience later?" Too often an affair IS simply about today.

 

Some quotes worth rereading.

[KismetGirl]

I don't disagree at all with this advice as how to remove yourself from an affair, no doubt it's possible, and works.

 

I would however say, that the OP has said more than once that he never had that 'spark' with his W. So, what I'm saying is, that even if NC is put in place and maintained, and the OW goes off and has a life without him and becomes just a dim memory that can be largely ignored... that's not, perhaps, the real issue. The real issue is that the OP now knows that that 'spark' is possible with someone, and he's not getting it with his W, and what's more has stated that he never has. To me, this is critical. Because will he always be longing for that spark (if not the OW herself)... and isn't that incredibly dangerous?

 

 

Bingo. The way this guy has been writing, I swear it could be my MM writing it. I am tempted to copy this thread and email to my own MM, to be honest, but then Im worried he'll find my threads and know its me and think Im crazy. But thats another story.

 

Anyway, people underestimate the importance of this spark that is missing in a relationship. The OP says he never had it. But, he knows what its LIKE to have it. Even if he breaks off with this OW, he's still going to be craving it, and there's a good chance he'll return to the OW, or seek it out with someone new. If you ask most men why they cheat, they usually say it was more because of an emotional disconnect with the W rather than just sex. But what happens if you never really had the RIGHT emotional connection with your wife? There are different kinds of love, and you can really love someone and care about them and have a generally happy life with them, and still feel that you married your friend instead of a romantic partner. Intensity can ebb and flow yeah, but I've seen couples in their 70's who still looked at each other with the same passion they described having when they were in their 30's. They may not be having crazy sex in their70's like they once did, but the PASSION FOR that other person is still there. They relish growing old with them, waking up next to them. It is a place beyond being just "comfortable". It is truly being in love. I think most marriages end up in the "comfortable" phase of things rather than the true love sort....and that might work for some people but I think inwardly alot of people know they are missing something. Most just never seek it out and deal with it. Once you find it, though, its hard to go back to that same feeling of just "comfortable".

 

Unless he can rekindle some spark with his W, but if it was never there to begin with? I dont know. All the MC in the world can guilt someone into deciding what is the "right" thing to do, but that doesnt mean it will change the person's true feelings.

 

Someone else earlier mentioned that he has fear- I also agree this is why he went back to the W right away. Fear of the unknown, fear of loss of family unit, fear of kids being upset, fear of loss of stability. People need stability.

 

This guy needs to determine what is more important to him: being comfortable, or risking the loss of comfort for perhaps something greater? But then again, he could be risking comfort for nothing at all if the OW relationship didnt work out. That is a risk he needs to determine whehter he is willing to take....I think fear of this risk is making him waffle all this time.

 

But seriously, he needs to make decision and stick to it. it isn't fair to anyone involved- W, OW, kids....anyone. People learn to adapt to new situations. if you divorce, don't do it because or FOR the OW, do it rather because you know that if you stay in the M YOU won't be happy. Likewise, don't stay in a M just to refrain from hurting your W. She'll hurt infintely more than she is already when you end up cheating on her again in a year or two when you start missing that spark again.

 

Decision time.....from a frustrated and lonely OW to an anonymous MM such as you , you sound exactly like my MM, and if i could talk to him like Im talking to you right now, I'd beg you to stop torturing me and just make an effing decision and stick with it.

 

Good luck.

[Karma101]

Bingo. The way this guy has been writing, I swear it could be my MM writing it. I am tempted to copy this thread and email to my own MM, to be honest, but then Im worried he'll find my threads and know its me and think Im crazy. But thats another story.

 

I have to admit, I am in a similar situation. I dated a 'separated' man for 10 months whose wife had cheated on him. One week before his final mediation, his STBXW suddenly had a change of heart, broke up with her BF/OM of over a year and wanted to work on their marriage. I am ashamed to admit, that I have allowed myself to go from the GF to the OW during their so-called reconciliation during the past 6 weeks. I hear all the same things that the OP originally stated in this thread about passion, a spark, an emotional connection that he no longer has with his wife, etc. The OP's comments, and others replies, have given me some insight into what's going on with my own MM, and what I need to do. He's clearly using me and the 'newness' and 'fun' of our relationship to offset the difficulty of putting his own failing marriage back together. A relationship/marriage is HARD work. Either find a way to rekindle those feelings with your wife or do her a favor and let her go. Make a choice and stick to it. For everyone's sanity.

 

Decision time.....from a frustrated and lonely OW to an anonymous MM such as you , you sound exactly like my MM, and if i could talk to him like Im talking to you right now, I'd beg you to stop torturing me and just make an effing decision and stick with it.

I would have to second this.

[Owl]

Decision time.....from a frustrated and lonely OW to an anonymous MM such as you , you sound exactly like my MM, and if i could talk to him like Im talking to you right now, I'd beg you to stop torturing me and just make an effing decision and stick with it.

 

From the BS viewpoint...I'll bet that his wife is begging him the exact same thing as well.

[stillafool]

From reading your post it seems you don't know what you want. Why don't you do your wife a favor and divorce her. Move out on your own and date but don't put your wife through anymore of the bulls--t.

[JamesM]

From the BS viewpoint...I'll bet that his wife is begging him the exact same thing as well.

 

Ironically, and you may concur with this, when he finally does decide and if it is his wife, then she may realize that a future with him is not what SHE wants. But if he chooses the OW, not only may the OW decide she has had enough, but the OP may decide...too late...that his W is what he really wants.

 

An affair can never lead to anything but pain and heartaches. While I understand the appeal, it is also so easy to see the pain...when one is not involved.

[pkn06002]

While I understand the appeal, it is also so easy to see the pain...when one is not involved.

 

Oh brother you have no idea how much that simple statement says.

[Owl]

Ironically, and you may concur with this, when he finally does decide and if it is his wife, then she may realize that a future with him is not what SHE wants. But if he chooses the OW, not only may the OW decide she has had enough, but the OP may decide...too late...that his W is what he really wants.

 

An affair can never lead to anything but pain and heartaches. While I understand the appeal, it is also so easy to see the pain...when one is not involved.

 

James, this is getting kinda creepy...we're agreeing far to much all of a sudden...QUICK...post something that you know I can't possibly agree with so that reality can return!!!