W or OW

[JamesM]

Your defense of cheaters hints that you may be one yourself (just kidding...you actually sound very level headed).

 

Actually, my defense comes from being in a marriage at times that helps me understand why people cheat. Prevention of an affair takes some real hard talking to one's self when an opportunity arises and the desire is there. Usually it comes down to "is this person who I would want to spend the rest of my life with...or do I just want to spend a night or two with her?"

 

And yes, I know that it could be me.

 

I think what rubbed me wrong about the poster's story is his unwillingness to stop the affair despite his wife's kind and generous offer of forgiveness.

 

I totally agree. That is why I think he is on a "high" yet with the OW.

 

As a victim (and I do take offense to your insinuation that I was somehow to blame...trust me no one treated their spouse as well as I did.

 

I understand why you might feel that way, and I cannot comment on your personal situation. But from what I read, many BSs did contribute to the affair, but certainly not all.

 

If I had an affair and even though my wife knows very well what our biggest weakness is, then I can see her mounting a defense as to how well she treated me while ignoring the reasons for the affair. So, yes, when I read of victimized BSs, I question if they have realized how they might be part of the problem, too.

 

Venting? Possibly but I sure wish someone had said these things to me years ago. I always assumed she would be "cured." Wasted years...wasted years...

 

And giving that advice to the wife would be very appropriate now. And I would be the first to agree with you. But as I said, I think your advice to this OP will fall on deaf ears. I am guessing he feels he has every reason to cheat...right or wrong.

[JamesM]

The advice is to him, not his BS. Would the OP consider showing his W here? Maybe we could advise her...

 

Now THAT would make for some fascinating posts.

[jwi71]

Anyway, I think it's all about courage -- courage to do what I think I need to do.

 

This is the only place where I actually enjoy being wrong. And that quote suggests that I might be. You are right OP, its about courage. You will need it. Your W will need it when the OW comes calling again. And she will.

 

The only problem is I'm not sure what that is. Not yet. Taking a month off would be a nice idea, but as some of the posters have pointed out, that would be the end right there

 

Why? Why is that the end? What happens in that month (or time off) that causes your M to magically end? If you take time to "find yourself" - how would that end the marriage?

 

Marriages can survive affairs. I think most fail, but a sizable number do. Mine looks as though it will - mostly because of the effort we both put into it.

 

Can you put that effort into it? Can your W? The longer you sit at the crossroads Hamlet, er OP, the more damage you do. Every decision you make that doesn't scream "I want my marriage to work" hurts your chances. Every move you make that is 100% committed to your M will be construed as "I want a D" by your W.

 

Have the courage to be honest with yourself and your W.

So...been to a MC yet?

[Owl]

First off, thanks all for taking the time to wade through what was a very long post. Most of all, though, thanks for the (mostly) thoughful responses and advice.

 

I'm ok with the tough stuff and I know better than anyone what a ****head I've become. I don't think you can think worse of me than I do myself. The sad thing is I didn't used to be such a prick and I want very much not to be one anymore.

 

(For the record, I have not cheated before and I don't believe I'm destined to be a cheater the rest of my life. Also for the record, I have no intention of going back to the rollercoaster have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too scenario of maintaining the affair.)

 

Anyway, I think it's all about courage -- courage to do what I think I need to do. The only problem is I'm not sure what that is. Not yet. Taking a month off would be a nice idea, but as some of the posters have pointed out, that would be the end right there; there'd be no decision to make in that case. I'm going away on a five-day busines trip this weekend. Maybe that will give me some time to think.

 

Its not about courage. Or maybe it is, but we have different definitions of the word. Courage, to me...is doing the right thing in the face of fear. I'm a combat veteran...this is my definition.

 

Courage isn't something you "work up to". It means making an instant decision to do the right thing, regardless of the personal risks.

 

You HAVE that ability.

 

The problem is...you simply don't care enough yet about the whole situation to take action to do the right thing.

 

Frankly...you don't care enough about your wife to do the right thing for her. Nor do you care enough about the OW to do right by her.

 

Instead...you're focusing on what YOU WANT.

 

See the distinctions here? Again, this isn't an attack or an assault...if you look at what I'm saying...you'll see the simple truth in it.

 

I do worry that I might never be happy again if I stay married. Even if I get over the OW eventually, will my wife ever get over her? Not surprisingly, things are pretty strained at home right now. Will she get over it? And will I get over what I've done to her?

 

Also, will I get over the OW? And if I did, will I ever get over thoughts of what could've been? Logically, you'd think I would eventually. But it doesn't feel like that right now. I do understand the difference between affair relationships and marriage relationships, and I do understand that the intensity of the romantic love of the affair won't last. But I believe -- or at least my heart does -- that the romantic love will morph into something more mature and enduring, and that I will be happy with her.

 

Am I kidding myself?

 

Not every situation works out the same.

 

Some marriages cannot recover from the damage of infidelity. But...many do. Mine did. I "got over" what my wife did to me...over time, with hard work and effort on both of our parts. With marriage counseling, and a lot of painful learning...we now have a wonderful marriage all over again.

 

I can also tell you from my personal experience as well as years on forums like this and others that you CAN...you WILL 'get over" the OW.

 

This is like a drug addiction. There is one way to treat it...cold turkey NC. FOREVER.

 

And...your response will be EXACTLY like dealing with a drug addiction. You'll go through a period of withdrawl...and the symptoms will be just like those of an addiction as well. Doubt, hurt, anger...you'll fight to find ways to get a "fix" of her during that time. But just like that drug...if you DON'T get that fix...then over time, the symptoms fade, she gets "out of your system"...and you begin to return to the person you were BEFORE you started the affair.

 

You start seeing and thinking clearly again. You finally SEE what you've done, how you've hurt those around you...and you want to fix things.

 

Go pick up a copy of "Surviving an Affair" for you and your wife to read.

 

Find a marriage counselor who's dealt with this...see if they don't tell you exactly what I'm saying.

 

Like I said...I nursed my wife through her "withdrawl"...I was AMAZED at what all occurred. And equally amazed by the outcomes.

 

But just like ending a drug addiction...you're probably going to have to hit rock bottom first before you finally make that choice to get out of the situation. And again like drugs...you'd better hope that the people around you that loved you haven't given up on you and moved on. You'll need that support system in place.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

And...your response will be EXACTLY like dealing with a drug addiction. You'll go through a period of withdrawl...and the symptoms will be just like those of an addiction as well.

 

I think what people fail to realize when the A is compared to an addiction, is that this is not simply the psychological symptoms but the physiological symptoms as well.

[Owl]

And...your response will be EXACTLY like dealing with a drug addiction. You'll go through a period of withdrawl...and the symptoms will be just like those of an addiction as well.

 

I think what people fail to realize when the A is compared to an addiction, is that this is not simply the psychological symptoms but the physiological symptoms as well.

 

You're right.

 

I know that I was totally unprepared for the depth of my wife's withdrawl symptoms at the time her affair ended. It was ASTOUNDING.

 

But...I was able to work through it.

[Confoozed]

For those who are wondering, yes, we've been to see a MC. A few times now. The counsellor says she thinks the marriage is "eminently fixable". I've been mostly forthcoming, but not completely. I've been holding back admitting I'm still hung up on the OW. My wife doesn't want to hear that and she sure as hell doesn't want to hear I'm going through withdrawls.

 

The way my wife sees it is she gave me a chance a year ago and if I'd done then what I should have, I'd be over her by now. She has as much she won't give me time to get over her. And for her own self esteem, she also doesn't want to hear that it's such a hard choice for me. Bottom line is she's all but lost her patience with me.

 

I think if I could come out with it and admit that I'm "addicted" and am going through withdrawls, and know that she would accept that if I promised absolutely no contact (which is in fact where I'm at already), then that would go a long way toward healing both of us.

 

But I fear she has indeed lost her patience with me and that such an admission will spell the end.

 

We have an appointment to see our MC next weekend. Think I should admit my addiction and withdrawl in that forum? I'm thinking I might.

[jj33]

Its your only hope. But I wonder if you should say you are addicted.

 

I think its going to be very hard for your W to hear that its difficult for you to forget the OW. I dont know. I think the key is you MUST stop all communication with the OW today not after the MC but today so that you can go in there hand on heart and say you have stopped and you are committed to your wife.

 

Otherwise you are still sitting on the fence hedging your bets.

[Owl]

For those who are wondering, yes, we've been to see a MC. A few times now. The counsellor says she thinks the marriage is "eminently fixable". I've been mostly forthcoming, but not completely. I've been holding back admitting I'm still hung up on the OW. My wife doesn't want to hear that and she sure as hell doesn't want to hear I'm going through withdrawls.

 

The way my wife sees it is she gave me a chance a year ago and if I'd done then what I should have, I'd be over her by now. She has as much she won't give me time to get over her. And for her own self esteem, she also doesn't want to hear that it's such a hard choice for me. Bottom line is she's all but lost her patience with me.

 

I think if I could come out with it and admit that I'm "addicted" and am going through withdrawls, and know that she would accept that if I promised absolutely no contact (which is in fact where I'm at already), then that would go a long way toward healing both of us.

 

But I fear she has indeed lost her patience with me and that such an admission will spell the end.

 

We have an appointment to see our MC next weekend. Think I should admit my addiction and withdrawl in that forum? I'm thinking I might.

 

Are you kidding???

 

That's the entire reason that MC has failed to work for the two of you!!!!

 

Because you've lied by omission to your wife, and the counselor! You can't expect a doctor to treat you if you don't tell him the whole story of what's wrong...he'll misdiagnose you and treat something completely different instead.

 

Counseling works the exact same way.

 

 

And...you really need to start being completely honest...ESPECIALLY to yourself.

 

You didn't omit the situation with OW to protect your wife. You deliberately omitted it so that you wouldn't be forced to be responsible for that decision, and the outcome and impacts of it. You didn't tell your wife and counselor about the ongoing contact with OW because you didn't want to.

 

That simple.

 

You didn't want them to 'beat you up' about it. You didn't want to face the choice you're at now...her or your wife. You didn't want to accept the fact that the reason things are still so bad for you and your wife is because you're still not committed to the marriage...because you're still cheating on your wife.

 

Be honest.

 

Its the only ticket out of the H3ll that you're in right now.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Cofoozed,

 

This is when I hate that new posters don't have PM, because I hate to thread jack here or cause a turn in the postings. YES, you should in that forum, where she also has support, admit the "addiction".

 

Here is what the two of you need to understand about the "addiction". Chemical addictions cause a "high". People whose lives are going down the drain, who KNOW it, DON'T want it, can't give it up. Our brains are wired to seek out these pleasure producing chemicals/activities.

 

A behavioral addiction is a little different. Back to PSYCH 101: the fastest form of conditioning is an intermittant reward. It isn't punishment or negative stimuli, it isn't a reward each time, it is an occational reward.

 

Think about a gambling addiction. I heard a recovered CEO who had lost everything speak on a gambling addiction. It ISN"T an addiction to money. He wouldn't have ever bothered if he had been promised 10:1 each time he traveled to the casino's. It is because the reward (not money), but a dopamine "high" MIGHT be felt if he won.

 

Why intermittant? Because if you ride the same roller coaster over and over and over, each time you do the dopamine response decreases as your body gets used to it. It's why you don't get that high from your wife, it is also why, possibly, that you have never gotten that "high" from your wife. She was always available to you. Its why unrequitted limerance last longer than requitted limerance. It's why fantasy (the thought of the chance) is always more exciting than exoeriencing that chance.

 

There is a thread on the OM/OW board right now by a guy (OM) who says, I GET what you are saying, I BELIEVE (somewhat) it to be true, but I can't stop shooting myself in the foot. THAT is the addiction.

 

In threads that start, I love my wife, we have a great life.... it pains me, because THEN one starts to see how addiction (that silly primal dopamine response) can cause such devistation to so many lives.

 

None of us know what would make YOU the most happy. Anyone dealing with an addiction (pleasure seaking activity) is only worrying about losing that "chance" at the high. Yes, you know what you are doing might not be best for all, you understand the devistation, but you can't feel it right now.

 

Just know that once you ride that roller coaster, over and over and over, it becomes just the same old ride. Mature love is what your wife has for you by attempting to put your marriage first inspite of the obvious betrayal she must feel right now, it IS not about butterflies and fast turns.

 

One of the books on infidelity, I believe it's "Surviving the Affair" starts out from a BS's POV, "I was raped at 14, but that doesn't even begin to match the hurt I feel from this, YOU were supposed to be my best friend"

[jwi71]

For those who are wondering, yes, we've been to see a MC. A few times now. The counsellor says she thinks the marriage is "eminently fixable". I've been mostly forthcoming, but not completely. I've been holding back admitting I'm still hung up on the OW. My wife doesn't want to hear that and she sure as hell doesn't want to hear I'm going through withdrawls.

 

I hope you read Owl's post. Twice.

 

Courage. You need to be courageous. Stop taking the easy way out. Stop lying...my God how many years have you been lying? Lying to your W. Lying to the OW. Lying to your children. Lying to yourself. Lies got you into this and I promise they only dig a deeper hole. You tried to lie for two years...and look where that got you. It won't work.

 

Time to be courageous. Time to be honest. Time to tell the truth. To your W, to your MC...to the world.

 

In your next MC session take control. Tell your W and your MC you need to speak uninterrupted. Then, tell the truth. Speak of your feelings.

 

I have been there. I was shocked to hear my W miss her OM in MC. Angry, hurt, humiliated...all of it. We got through it. Hard? Damn near impossible. Hurt worse than the actual A truth be told. But I needed to hear it.

 

It must be done. You don't stop lying, then you are doomed.

[Confoozed]

 

You didn't omit the situation with OW to protect your wife. You deliberately omitted it so that you wouldn't be forced to be responsible for that decision, and the outcome and impacts of it. You didn't tell your wife and counselor about the ongoing contact with OW because you didn't want to.

 

That simple.

 

You didn't want them to 'beat you up' about it. You didn't want to face the choice you're at now...her or your wife. You didn't want to accept the fact that the reason things are still so bad for you and your wife is because you're still not committed to the marriage...because you're still cheating on your wife.

 

 

----------

 

To be clear, contact with the OW is not continuing. But I continue to obsess about her and am feeling like I'm in withdrawl. That's what I want to admit to my wife and MC. I think I need to in order to move on with fixing my relationship with my wife. Right now, she senses it, I think, but I keep telling her everything is ok. If I could be honest with her about how I'm feeling, would that help me to get over the OW?

 

Sounds silly when I write it out like that, but....

[IfWishesWereHorses]

If I could be honest with her about how I'm feeling, would that help me to get over the OW?

 

See, THIS is why you need a really GOOD MC. Recovery, takes enormous amounts of trust from both of you. It's not all roses, it hurts like hell.

 

You say, I NEED your help to get through this. I promise to be 100% honest and truthful, but I have to TRUST that YOU will help me through this and I KNOW that the truth is going to hurt you, but we need to deal with the REALITY of what I'm going through.

[Owl]

----------

 

To be clear, contact with the OW is not continuing. But I continue to obsess about her and am feeling like I'm in withdrawl. That's what I want to admit to my wife and MC. I think I need to in order to move on with fixing my relationship with my wife. Right now, she senses it, I think, but I keep telling her everything is ok. If I could be honest with her about how I'm feeling, would that help me to get over the OW?

 

Sounds silly when I write it out like that, but....

 

Yes...having open and honest communication in your marriage, with your wife can and will let you "get over" the OW.

 

In time. With effort on your part and your wife's. By working WITH the counselor instead of against.

 

You say that there is no communication betwen you and the OW.

 

When was that established? How long has it truly been in place? Is this a "forever" NC, or was this a "for now" NC? What was the OW told about the NC? What was the wife told?

 

This all matters.

[Confoozed]

Thanks all for your kind and not-so-kind advice and opinions.

 

I'm going to think on things the next several days -- all the while maintaining NC with the OW -- and next weekend, at MC, I think I might 'fess up to how I'm feeling. And let the cards fall where they may.

 

I am tired of lying. I'm tired of being deceitful. It's got to the point that I don't know what's truth and what isn't half the time. I can't even tell true feelings from false ones. I can't continue to hurt the people I love. I've made everyone around me unhappy. And I've made myself unhappy, too.

 

Whatever happens, I have to make something happen.

[Confoozed]

 

You say that there is no communication betwen you and the OW.

 

When was that established? How long has it truly been in place? Is this a "forever" NC, or was this a "for now" NC? What was the OW told about the NC? What was the wife told?

 

This all matters.

 

 

------

 

The NC has been two weeks today. And before that, it was pretty limited -- maybe only a few times over the previous two weeks.

 

The OW has resigned herself to believing that I'm back with my wife to stay and she understands that contact has to end for both of us to be able to move on with our lives. She has several friends and supporters who have affirmed this with her.

 

Problem is, it appears she wants the contact as much as I do, so while we both know there can't be any contact, we both want it. We're both hooked and we both like our fixes.

 

I know NC is necessary, and that's why I've done it. But my obsession with her doesn't seem to have abated even a bit yet.

[Owl]

------

 

The NC has been two weeks today. And before that, it was pretty limited -- maybe only a few times over the previous two weeks.

 

The OW has resigned herself to believing that I'm back with my wife to stay and she understands that contact has to end for both of us to be able to move on with our lives. She has several friends and supporters who have affirmed this with her.

 

Problem is, it appears she wants the contact as much as I do, so while we both know there can't be any contact, we both want it. We're both hooked and we both like our fixes.

 

I know NC is necessary, and that's why I've done it. But my obsession with her doesn't seem to have abated even a bit yet.

 

Thanks for responding. A couple of thoughts/questions still.

 

How do you KNOW that she's still 'appearing to want the contact', if you're NC with her? There should be no updates at all on her status from mutual friends, no contact of ANY kind at all. Not just physical, but email/IM/txt, etc...

 

The last thing you should have heard...either FROM, or ABOUT her should be two weeks old.

 

Make sense?

 

And you're not going to sense the change in the addiction for a long time. Its like watching water boil...ya know?

 

Instead...stop worrying about whether or not you'll get better on that front, and start working on improving things where you can...in your marriage and family. For now...change your focus to those things. Yes, she'll still be in your mind a lot...but stop FOCUSING on that aspect...start FOCUSING on your immediate next steps to fixing what you can.

 

See what I'm saying here? When you catch yourself thinking about her...acknowledge it...then deliberately "change the channel" in your mind to something else. Its not an easy skill, but it is one you can develop with effort.

 

And...as much as possible...for now...focus on fixing the communication in your marriage. Don't even worry about what your feeling or not feeling for your wife...that's not the focus now. Right now...simply focus on fixing the PROBLEMS...you'll find that fixing the problems will restore the feelings...and as those feelings restore...your feelings about the OW situation will slowly change and fade.

 

There is no fast cure, no quick fix. Only steady work, and a point where you raise your head, look back, and ask yourself "what in the heck was I thinking?".

[jj33]

Its too soon confoozed. You need to try to switch your focus to your family and then see where you are in 2 months time. It isnt going to disappear overnight.

 

If you dont think it is ever going to go away then you should leave.

[Owl]

Its too soon confoozed. You need to try to switch your focus to your family and then see where you are in 2 months time. It isnt going to disappear overnight.

 

If you dont think it is ever going to go away then you should leave.

 

JJ, one thing to realize...at this point in withdrawl...they ALL think that "its never going to go away".

 

Seriously.

 

Focusing HARD on fixing the problems and seeing where things are after that are his best bets.

 

He can't possibly know for sure if its going to 'go away' or not at this point.

[Confoozed]

You're pretty wise, Owl. What you say makes a lot of sense. It isn't like I hadn't thought of it, but it seems to make more sense coming from someone else. I guess I don't trust myself much these days -- I guess that makes it unanimous.

 

I say I sense she feels the same way about contacting me because we had tried a number of times to end contact -- or at least I had -- but she wouldn't let go. This time has been different, though. It's been two weeks, which is out of character for her, but I know is the result of what her own friends have been telling her for months.

 

I'm pretty sure if I don't initiate anything, I'll not hear from her again. She's made it very clear she wants me, but she's also made it clear that she's done being an OW. Having convinced herself that I'm back with my wife for good, it would appear that she's decided to move on.

 

That said, I know that if I were to contact her and let her know I was leaving my wife, she'd take me in a heartbeat - though God knows why. Therein lies the continued obsession, I think. If she told me she was done with me, not interested ever, then that might help some.

[Owl]

One thing you'll learn about me...I'm NOT wise.

 

If I were wise...I would have never ended up on this site myself.

 

 

But, I wanted to add in one more thing.

 

You know that she was always the one to break contact...right?

 

That suggests the FIRST course of action you can take to start rebuilding things.

 

You're not gonna like it.

 

But trust me...its the first thing you can do to start rebuilding trust, and safegaurding your marriage.

 

Ready?

 

Take steps to PREVENT contact. Change your email address, IM accounts, and/or your cell phone numbers.

 

Make it so that she can't easily contact you in a single moment of weakness.

 

Seriously...this is your first step. You'll always know how to contact her if you end up opting to divorce...but knowing she tends to be the one to break the NC...take steps to PROTECT HER from her own weakness.

 

Seriously...do it now.

[jasperlynx]

my wife wants to leave me because I made a stupid made up remarke like "im so pent up wanting sex , im thinking about other women" . which I did not mean but I blew it.

 

man your wife is very forgiving...why?

[advise2008]

Confoosed, I would like to share my personal experience and advice with you to help you deal with this. If you like, you may email me at [email protected].

[whichwayisup]

Tell your wife everything in marriage counselling, you owe that to her. I know you don't want to hurt her anymore than you are, but atleast being honest about what's going on inside you IS a start to something..Yes, she may not want to hear that you're in withdrawals and still missing the OW, but hiding it from her IS making it worse. The thoughts going on inside HER head is probably alot worse..Not knowing is probably killing her as well.

[Confoozed]

my wife wants to leave me because I made a stupid made up remarke like "im so pent up wanting sex , im thinking about other women" . which I did not mean but I blew it.

 

man your wife is very forgiving...why?

 

-----------

 

I know, crazy, huh? I know I don't deserve it. Guess I'm just lucky. Funny thing is if she wasn't so damn forgiving, I wouldn't have to wonder what to do.