Caliguy: In a pickle here...

[Vertex]

Well I think some kisses are more permissible (ie. a kiss on the cheek, even a kiss on the lips if it's obviously friendly, etc), but outside of that I would call it cheating.

[CaliGuy]

As far as I am concerned, as long as a relationship has not been officially ended, the people in that relationship are off limits. I call BS on your claim that you respected their engagement and were ever okay with only being friends with this woman.

 

Do you think that her friends would have used the term "other fiancé" if your "friendship" with this woman would have been completely innocent. Somehow I doubt it.

 

Personally, I call this kiss cheating.

 

I am sure that her fiancé would disagree with you on that. "No more Mr. Nice Guy" sure seems to have worked for you. The nice guy is certainly gone, I am not sure though, if the result is what I would call a balanced man.

 

You know, they called me the "other" fiance because of how good her and I got along. We had never crossed the line or even come close to it until Sat night. Maybe it was the alcohol, I don't know.

 

Yeah, flirting is one thing -- kissing or anything physical is another. I was in a relationship that wasn't working a few years ago, and a mild flirtation with another guy emerged after I made clear I was unhappy and seriously considering leaving. The flirty guy was my next boyfriend, but we did nothing physical whatsoever until six months after the first relationship ended, once I'd had time to get over it and get back on my feet. And I was totally honest with my boyfriend about the flirtation, and he knew I wasn't happy and was considering breaking up with him.

 

I couldn't feel good about being with a guy who would kiss me while engaged to someone else, and yeah, as they say, if you get with this woman, do not be surprised if she cheats on you if doubts about you should emerge in the future.

 

Well if she does break it off with him to be with me, I will make the boundaries clear. If she crosses them, I won't hesistate to move on. I want to make something perfectly clear. We both know it was wrong. Neither one of us deny that.

 

The question is, what happens next? I'm going to take Art's advice on this and play the wait and see game. I am going to continue to date others and not put a lot of stock in this. If she wants to leave her fiance, it needs to be on her own accord.

[CaliGuy]

Cali,

 

Fill in the blanks.

 

I don't think I need to give you advice. You know what to do.

 

I do. And I think Art gave some really good advice on how to handle it as well.

 

Well I think some kisses are more permissible (ie. a kiss on the cheek, even a kiss on the lips if it's obviously friendly, etc), but outside of that I would call it cheating.

 

There was no swapping of tongue if that's what you mean but yes, it was more than a kiss on the cheek.

[amaysngrace]

You all are coming down on him pretty hard IMO. The girl has a fiance, so what? Cali says it was wrong to kiss her. He knows that. He's going to back off now unless and until she breaks if off which she very well may now.

 

You have condemned this woman to hell as a horrible human being for liking Cali while being involved with someone else. Personally I think she has good taste. He's a catch and a half IMO.

 

Cali my sister married a guy who was engaged to someone else when she met him. They both taught in the same school and use to chat it up in the faculty room. He broke off the engagement before he asked her out and they have been married for fifteen years now. Two sons.

 

I know in my heart of hearts that breaking his engagement to take out my sister was one of the best choices he's ever made in his life. That's pretty clear. Do I think he's a bad guy? Hell no. He's one of my most favorite people. He's even my son's Godfather.

 

So don't let the harshness put you on the defense CG. Situations arise and we handle them as we see fit. Like SOOO many LSers, I trust your judgment.

[Stockalone]

You know, they called me the "other" fiance because of how good her and I got along. We had never crossed the line or even come close to it until Sat night. Maybe it was the alcohol, I don't know.

 

Well, you don't have to kiss her to cross the line. I simply don't understand how you could have had an innocent, platonic friendship with this woman.

 

You say you never wanted to interfere, but you have shown that as soon as she is willing, this friendship can turn into more. That is why I doubt that you have never before been trying to "present" yourself as a better bf. From what you have written, it seems like you were interfering in her relationship before that kiss.

 

If you and her got along so well as merely friends, why would her friends use the term "other fiancé". That, to me, means that there was some interaction (flirting, insinuations, subtleties) between the two of you that are appropriate for a bf/gf relationship and not so much appropriate for friends.

 

Has her fiance ever met you?

[Shygirl15]

Her integrity is a bit questionable, though. She gave one too many green lights, and I think she was more than ready to go even further than a kiss, only if you pursued. I do not think such behaviours can change, and she's likely to do the same thing to someone else in future.

[CaliGuy]

You all are coming down on him pretty hard IMO. The girl has a fiance, so what? Cali says it was wrong to kiss her. He knows that. He's going to back off now unless and until she breaks if off which she very well may now.

 

You have condemned this woman to hell as a horrible human being for liking Cali while being involved with someone else. Personally I think she has good taste. He's a catch and a half IMO.

 

Cali my sister married a guy who was engaged to someone else when she met him. They both taught in the same school and use to chat it up in the faculty room. He broke off the engagement before he asked her out and they have been married for fifteen years now. Two sons.

 

I know in my heart of hearts that breaking his engagement to take out my sister was one of the best choices he's ever made in his life. That's pretty clear. Do I think he's a bad guy? Hell no. He's one of my most favorite people. He's even my son's Godfather.

 

So don't let the harshness put you on the defense CG. Situations arise and we handle them as we see fit. Like SOOO many LSers, I trust your judgment.

 

Thanks AG. I know what the right thing is to do and I don't feel like I am being bashed here. As I have always maintained, it's much easier to see a situation in black and white when you are not involved. When your heart becomes involved then things tend to be much more a shade of gray

 

Well, you don't have to kiss her to cross the line. I simply don't understand how you could have had an innocent, platonic friendship with this woman.

 

It was innocent and platonic because we never spoke outside of her work. Is that not easy to understand?

 

You say you never wanted to interfere, but you have shown that as soon as she is willing, this friendship can turn into more. That is why I doubt that you have never before been trying to "present" yourself as a better bf. From what you have written, it seems like you were interfering in her relationship before that kiss.

 

I don't think I would have ever gone there had she told me "Hey I am completely happy with my fiance and am excited to be married to him." Had she said anything even remotely like that I would have backed off. Instead, she said just the opposite and was, I think in a very blatent way, trying to tell me "I am available if you are interested…"

 

If you and her got along so well as merely friends, why would her friends use the term "other fiancé". That, to me, means that there was some interaction (flirting, insinuations, subtleties) between the two of you that are appropriate for a bf/gf relationship and not so much appropriate for friends.

 

I think you guys are looking far too much into that then there really was. It was her work friends and it was simply a running joke. Again, other than this past Saturday we have never hung out outside of her work. That's it.

 

Has her fiance ever met you?

 

I'm not sure why that would matter but the answer is no.

[Art_Critic]

So don't let the harshness put you on the defense CG. Situations arise and we handle them as we see fit. Like SOOO many LSers, I trust your judnt.

 

I agree...

 

CG... Amaysngrace is right..

 

I didn't mean to put you on the defense with my alpha male comment..

 

Being an Alpha Male isn't always a compliment..

An Alpha would have banged her..yes.. but that doesn't mean it would've been the right thing to do...

 

You aren't an Alpha CG.. Neither am I.. nothing wrong with that.. you also are not a doormat..neither am I..

I'm more of a blend that has formed thru the years of getting to know what I want and what I don't want out of a relationship...

 

I have dated women that had BF's before I started dating them.. the trick is that I didn't know it till after we were dating.. they were the ones that did the selective weeding out in their own love life..

 

The biggie in your case is that you have to call the shots.. if you allow her to call the shots then you and hooked..

How do you call the shots ?... you go about your life and date others.. all the while she is sitting there watching " the one " go away and go about his life without her..

that is the good healthy thing to do.. it is also the best way to get her attention..

 

If she likes you and dumps the other guy you will here from her.. no doubt...

[CaliGuy]

I agree...

 

CG... Amaysngrace is right..

 

I didn't mean to put you on the defense with my alpha male comment..

 

Being an Alpha Male isn't always a compliment..

An Alpha would have banged her..yes.. but that doesn't mean it would've been the right thing to do…

 

Exactly. That is why I left things the way that I did. We both know there is a strong, mutual interest but the timing right now isn't right. If I were to have pushed her, it could have easily gone farther. But in the end, that was not the right thing to do. I walked away thinking much more about the long term.

 

You aren't an Alpha CG.. Neither am I.. nothing wrong with that.. you also are not a doormat..neither am I..

I'm more of a blend that has formed thru the years of getting to know what I want and what I don't want out of a relationship…

 

I totally agree with you here, Art.

 

I have dated women that had BF's before I started dating them.. the trick is that I didn't know it till after we were dating.. they were the ones that did the selective weeding out in their own love life..

 

With her, she had been giving me signals that she was interested. I never pursed them more than just the friends thing. I figured she was getting married and that was that. Again, it wasn't until she told me she was not going to marry him, that she had been talking to her sisters about breaking it off that things escalated. She has been slowly weeding me into her life and that's fine. Right now, she needs to break it off with her fiance or we're not going anywhere. And this has to be on her own accord with no interference from me.

 

The biggie in your case is that you have to call the shots.. if you allow her to call the shots then you and hooked..

How do you call the shots ?... you go about your life and date others.. all the while she is sitting there watching " the one " go away and go about his life without her..

that is the good healthy thing to do.. it is also the best way to get her attention..

 

Agreed.

 

If she likes you and dumps the other guy you will here from her.. no doubt...

 

Yes, I am sure of that. She does like me, I can see it in her eyes and her behavior around me (she will literally stop what she is doing at work to come talk to me). I don't have to pursue her. She knows how I feel, I know how she feels.

 

All I can do is live my life and be patient.

[CaliGuy]

Her integrity is a bit questionable, though. She gave one too many green lights, and I think she was more than ready to go even further than a kiss, only if you pursued. I do not think such behaviours can change, and she's likely to do the same thing to someone else in future.

 

In most cases I would agree, but the fact she has been pulling away from him and her mind is set to break it off, I am not so sure that this is normal behavior for her. As I said, she's already been talking to her sisters for a while. She isn't happy in her current relationship.

 

I will watch, wait and listen to see what happens. If we are to date, her and I, then there will be some firm boundaries set.

[Art_Critic]

In most cases I would agree, but the fact she has been pulling away from him and her mind is set to break it off, I am not so sure that this is normal behavior for her. As I said, she's already been talking to her sisters for a while. She isn't happy in her current relationship.

 

I will watch, wait and listen to see what happens. If we are to date, her and I, then there will be some firm boundaries set.

 

I don't think her integrity is in question... it's all about dating.. dating is supposed to be about figuring out what we want or don't want.. she needs to figure the same things out about who she is dating...

 

Like I said before.. I have dated women before that had BF's before we dated..

Once they got a taste of Art they quickly jumped ship and came over to the clown's side.. ....j/k

Those few women were in transitional relationships that were on the way out and I was the filler material they needed .. so to speak

 

They didn't dump the guy because of me but they did make up their mind about how quickly they wanted out of a relationship once we had gone out a few times...

 

Her intentions toward the guy she is engaged to may not be intentions of marriage anymore and that doesn't make her a bad person and it certainly doesn't make you a bad guy to come in on the end of her relationship and sweep her off her feet..

You just don't want to hang yourself on whether or not she dumps the guy or not..

[CaliGuy]

I don't think her integrity is in question... it's all about dating.. dating is supposed to be about figuring out what we want or don't want.. she needs to figure the same things out about who she is dating…

 

That's the sense I get from her. That she is trying to figure things out by talking to her friends and family. She made it clear on Sat night: "I'm not going to marry him."

 

Like I said before.. I have dated women before that had BF's before we dated..

Once they got a taste of Art they quickly jumped ship and came over to the clown's side.. ....j/k

Those few women were in transitional relationships that were on the way out and I was the filler material they needed .. so to speak

 

Yeah I think she's in the same kind of position where she knows she is leaving this guy but, I think until Saturday, wasn't 100% sure she had another option She texted me the next day and said "Thanks for hanging out last night. U are good company :-)"

 

They didn't dump the guy because of me but they did make up their mind about how quickly they wanted out of a relationship once we had gone out a few times…

 

So you sort of dated them while they were dating someone else?

 

Her intentions toward the guy she is engaged to may not be intentions of marriage anymore and that doesn't make her a bad person and it certainly doesn't make you a bad guy to come in on the end of her relationship and sweep her off her feet..

You just don't want to hang yourself on whether or not she dumps the guy or not..

 

Agreed. So today when I see her, what do you suggest I say to her. I was going to act like it was no big deal (it isn't really). I know I need to just move on with life and whatever happens between her and her fiance, that will play itself out on it's own.

 

I was just going to be my normal self

[Art_Critic]

So you sort of dated them while they were dating someone else?

 

 

I was just going to be my normal self

 

Yeah.. only I didn't know it till later..

Not that it mattered anyhow.. like I said they were on the way out and would have been single shortly anyhow...

If I had known I would've taken the approach that I have mentioned here...

 

CG.. Just be yourself and don't even mention her relationship with him.. it seems like she knows she is going to have to deal with it..

 

Don't get too close to her though being that she is still with another guy.. just go hang out and have a great time with her..

 

As much as I'm against cheating and I personally would never have cheated while dating I also know the difference between a committed relationship and not one..

She does need to deal with the whole engagement thing though before you start dating her...

[Rooster_DAR]

I don't like the smell of it at all. You need to be careful about what she tells you, it may be sugar coated or downright lies. It sounds like a case of the grass is greener on the other side to me, man this woman is engaged dude.

 

I know sometimes it's hard to resist, but you need to step back IMO and let her get her act together and break up with him first. In my eyes, she is cheating by all means.

 

Cheers!

[2sunny]

CG-

 

i agree with your wait and see what action she takes regarding her engagement... otherwise you could be in for a lot of pain again.

 

one thing i see a problem with is the fact that she was outwardly giving you the green flag during the course of the evening. what if you were the type of guy to FULLY take advantage of that? you aren't and you didn't... but who's to say that she's not the type to have done A LOT behind a fiance's back - if the OM were willing to take her there? this says something about her character or lack of... she hasn't done things in the proper order. what would have been so bad about her waiting until AFTER she broke it off with her fiance' until she told you to meet her out for the evening?

 

the potential pain that can come from this is HUGE. be aware and keep your guard up until the resolution on her side is more than settled down. even an engagement can be as messy to back out of as a marriage. we have to assume that her fiance' isn't going to just disappear even if she's breaks it off with him. her emotions may be all over the place.

 

if it moves forward in the future you will need a clear understanding of your boundaries and how to stick to them. in other words... it has the potential to get kind of messy.

[xpaperxcutx]

CG, if you want my opinion, I'd point out that the both of you had had mutual attractions. But the both of you never acted on your feelings until this past Saturday, when she poured out her unhappiness to you, and her moment of weakness resulted in your moment of weakness.

 

You can't take the kiss back. It happened, and i know you're regretting it since it goes against your principles. What you can do is distance yourself away from her. It'll give you and mostly her a clear head on how to proceed next. The main problem is that she's the one who's conflicted about her engagement and her fiance, and if you were to continue spending time with her, the chances are your presence will sway her decisions. Best to let her go about this on her own rather than having the results being you " breaking up" the couple.

[climbergirl]

I don't think her integrity is in question... it's all about dating.. dating is supposed to be about figuring out what we want or don't want.. she needs to figure the same things out about who she is dating...

 

Like I said before.. I have dated women before that had BF's before we dated..

Once they got a taste of Art they quickly jumped ship and came over to the clown's side.. ....j/k

Those few women were in transitional relationships that were on the way out and I was the filler material they needed .. so to speak

 

They didn't dump the guy because of me but they did make up their mind about how quickly they wanted out of a relationship once we had gone out a few times...

 

Her intentions toward the guy she is engaged to may not be intentions of marriage anymore and that doesn't make her a bad person and it certainly doesn't make you a bad guy to come in on the end of her relationship and sweep her off her feet..

You just don't want to hang yourself on whether or not she dumps the guy or not..

 

With all due respect, I do think her integrity is in question if she doesn't let her fiance know soon that she doesn't want to get married. And he should be the one who knows first before telling a group of people. And from the first post, it gives the impression that she knew that she didn't want to get married for some time now.

 

I don't think anyone is the bad guy here. Sh*t happens. However, if you know that you don't want to be with someone-for the love of God...let them know so that they can move on. It seems to me that the relationship deserves at least that amount of respect.

 

I personally wouldn't trust someone who could keep up that facade (if in Caliguys situation), and her actions would seem very selfish/self-serving.

[CaliGuy]

Yeah.. only I didn't know it till later..

Not that it mattered anyhow.. like I said they were on the way out and would have been single shortly anyhow...

If I had known I would've taken the approach that I have mentioned here...

 

CG.. Just be yourself and don't even mention her relationship with him.. it seems like she knows she is going to have to deal with it..

 

Don't get too close to her though being that she is still with another guy.. just go hang out and have a great time with her..

 

As much as I'm against cheating and I personally would never have cheated while dating I also know the difference between a committed relationship and not one..

She does need to deal with the whole engagement thing though before you start dating her...

 

Gotcha. Just do what I've been doing and let her sort her stuff out on her own.

 

I don't like the smell of it at all. You need to be careful about what she tells you, it may be sugar coated or downright lies. It sounds like a case of the grass is greener on the other side to me, man this woman is engaged dude.

 

I know sometimes it's hard to resist, but you need to step back IMO and let her get her act together and break up with him first. In my eyes, she is cheating by all means.

 

Cheers!

 

That's pretty much what Art is saying. Step back and watch. In the meantime, don't stop my life and continue having fun.

 

CG-

 

i agree with your wait and see what action she takes regarding her engagement... otherwise you could be in for a lot of pain again.

 

one thing i see a problem with is the fact that she was outwardly giving you the green flag during the course of the evening. what if you were the type of guy to FULLY take advantage of that? you aren't and you didn't... but who's to say that she's not the type to have done A LOT behind a fiance's back - if the OM were willing to take her there? this says something about her character or lack of... she hasn't done things in the proper order. what would have been so bad about her waiting until AFTER she broke it off with her fiance' until she told you to meet her out for the evening?

 

the potential pain that can come from this is HUGE. be aware and keep your guard up until the resolution on her side is more than settled down. even an engagement can be as messy to back out of as a marriage. we have to assume that her fiance' isn't going to just disappear even if she's breaks it off with him. her emotions may be all over the place.

 

if it moves forward in the future you will need a clear understanding of your boundaries and how to stick to them. in other words... it has the potential to get kind of messy.

 

True. She never gave me the green light, ya know what I mean? She never said "Let's kiss" it just sort of happened. We both knew it was not the right time and backed off. I don't think is something she does all the time, ya know? The whole time we've been talking I never suspected something was wrong but she said "I've been talking to my sisters for weeks about this.." She invited me to hang out with her on Sat, I think she wanted me to know what she was thinking.

 

CG, if you want my opinion, I'd point out that the both of you had had mutual attractions. But the both of you never acted on your feelings until this past Saturday, when she poured out her unhappiness to you, and her moment of weakness resulted in your moment of weakness.

 

You can't take the kiss back. It happened, and i know you're regretting it since it goes against your principles. What you can do is distance yourself away from her. It'll give you and mostly her a clear head on how to proceed next. The main problem is that she's the one who's conflicted about her engagement and her fiance, and if you were to continue spending time with her, the chances are your presence will sway her decisions. Best to let her go about this on her own rather than having the results being you " breaking up" the couple.

 

That's the plan. I am not going to interfere. It's obvious to her how I feel and obvious to me how she feels so it's best to let sleeping dogs lay for now and see what occurs. If she really wants to be with me, she'll make it happen. Otherwise, I am OK with moving on with life. I'm having too much fun. I realize this is taboo for most people and having been in her fiances' shoes, I actually feel for the guy.

[CaliGuy]

With all due respect, I do think her integrity is in question if she doesn't let her fiance know soon that she doesn't want to get married. And he should be the one who knows first before telling a group of people. And from the first post, it gives the impression that she knew that she didn't want to get married for some time now.

 

I don't think anyone is the bad guy here. Sh*t happens. However, if you know that you don't want to be with someone-for the love of God...let them know so that they can move on. It seems to me that the relationship deserves at least that amount of respect.

 

I personally wouldn't trust someone who could keep up that facade (if in Caliguys situation), and her actions would seem very selfish/self-serving.

 

I understand what you're saying, CG. The issue here is they live together and I do understand that it takes time for women to pull away. She's made up her mind that she isn't going to marry the guy, but I don't know that she's ready to completely pull the trigger. That's why Art is saying "back off and let her take care of business…"

 

When the ex that brought me here pulled away, she did so over time. Though she was ready to walk away, she wouldn't do it until she found someone better for her (and she eventually did get engaged to the guy she dumped me for). What I am saying is simply that she will get to that point and I don't think she's being unfair. I think she's acting like most women with conflicted feelings do.

 

They take their time to pull away.

[BlueHarvest]

IMO the ring means nothing.

 

Engagements are a man's way of hooking a woman to him without having to worry as much about her having second thoughts.

 

Rings are for all intents and purposes a rock chained to you. (Literally: They are an homage to Prometheus in mythological lore)

 

So if I were you, I'd back off and see if she truly likes you enough to break off the engagement. If she does pursue...enjoy! If not....happy hunting!

[2sunny]

being engage the first time made me feel "confined" and defiant! ooops! :eek:

 

once i married the right man (so i thought for 20 years) i was settled and never considered cheating..

 

 

for what it's worth - the ring represents the intent of two people...

[whichwayisup]

I'm having too much fun. I realize this is taboo for most people and having been in her fiances' shoes, I actually feel for the guy.

 

You should CG, because that 'guy' you feel for, was you not too long ago..When lady cheated on you..

 

There are so many red flags flapping around - Bottomline - She is living with him, and engaged. IF she really IS unhappy, she MUST communicate that with him..I wonder if he is even aware that she's distancing herself from him, has kissed another man (you, is unhappy in the relationship. How do you know she's actually thinking of breaking it off with him? What if she's just enjoying having a close male friend who is sexually attracted to her..You of all people know you can't be 'friends' with someone who you have feelings for, let alone have kissed and are sexually attracted to..

 

Just seems to me that she's enjoying the 'friendship' with you too much so I hope that kiss doesn't happen again. Don't spend ANY alone time with her, texting to her, emailing, talking on the phone...You need to really cut her out of your life, don't BE the shoulder or the supportive friend she can turn to about her fiancee.

 

She's wearing the ring? She's fully engaged then..

[climbergirl]

I understand what you're saying, CG. The issue here is they live together and I do understand that it takes time for women to pull away. She's made up her mind that she isn't going to marry the guy, but I don't know that she's ready to completely pull the trigger. That's why Art is saying "back off and let her take care of business…"

 

When the ex that brought me here pulled away, she did so over time. Though she was ready to walk away, she wouldn't do it until she found someone better for her (and she eventually did get engaged to the guy she dumped me for). What I am saying is simply that she will get to that point and I don't think she's being unfair. I think she's acting like most women with conflicted feelings do.

 

They take their time to pull away.

 

True enough. That's why my words were phrased in future tense. Watch and see (from a distance if all possible) what transpires.

 

One thing I know--her relationship with her fiance isn't going anywhere.

[Lizzie60]

You go dude..

 

She's still single... and she can always change her mind....

 

You don't lose anything by trying..

[2sunny]

You go dude..

 

She's still single... and she can always change her mind....

 

You don't lose anything by trying..

 

ok CG - this perspective alone and knowing you well enough should speak volumes to you...

 

her quote and advice is so NOT your style... be true to yourself and what the right thing is in life.