LucreziaBorgia Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 1. My wife hasn't gone to dinner with her friend yet, this was going to be in a month when she stays at her sister's house during a business trip (sorry my mind wasn't very clear when I originally posted). 2. I did tell her a wanted her password to her secret email and she gave it up. After reading through all the emails (inbox, sent, deleted, old email folder) there were none that would have caused a problem with me. 1. Big, huge red flag. I'd be insisting on going along at this point, or finding a way to cancel the trip. 2. I asked my H about this, and he had a bitter chuckle over it. Why? - he is a very, very good 'tech' person. There are plenty of ways to scrub what you don't want another person to see, and it is highly likely that she simply gave OM the heads up and went further underground with a different account. At this point, I'd be keylogging and big time. Of course, once she knew you were on to you, she would be looking for something like that.
jwi71 Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Your wife's actions certainly invite suspicion. As others have said, if there is nothing to hide than no need for a "secret" email account with emails only to/from him. It smells rotten. I would begin keylogging on all three home computers and pronto as Lucrezia suggests. This is how I caught my WS and received iron-clad evidence of her A. I would also forbid her work laptop from being used at home. If she can use the home computers to access her work...then no need to use the home computers. Which begs the question - why did she start bringing her laptop home (and I think use it and not the home PCs to access the email)? This isn't a violation of trust. She invited this by being secretive. There should be no secrets about the marriage whilst within a marriage. But there are. And she created them. She created the mistrust - not you. It is not a violation to investigate. It is prudent and smart. And - I'd go on the trip.
Geishawhelk Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 No, I disagree with this. You see, what you are saying is sort of legitimizing her behaviors. So if a spouse starts to interact with a co-worker or friend in such a manner, does this mean it's to be expected, or understandable because hey, something is "missing" for her/him? No, I'm not 'legitimising' her behaviour at all. Quite the contrary. The minute she felt the desire to start this fliration, it should have been a great big wake-up call for her.... My point is, that if a member of a couple begins seriously and dangerously flirting with anyone else - near or far, whomsoever they be - then there is something about the relationship they're in, they don't want to be faithful to. It's a choice. People aren't stupid. they don't forget they are married, they don't forget they have a spouse, they don't conveniently put them out of their minds. The seed of guilt is being sown the moment they succumb to the secret conduct. She has to respect her husband and her marriage, plain and simple. Where have I indicated otherwise? Life is tough, marriage is tough, No. Marriage is not tough. Commitment and Effort are tough. There are lots of outside pressures. But we all have to deal with them. Yes, but not by brushing them under the carpet and looking to the other side of the fence for the green grass.... And besides, if she is feeling "bored" or whatever you are suggesting, that doesn't automatically mean the husband is to blame either. I have repeatedly said, again and again, I am not blaming him. But if a person is looking elsewhere for gratification, it can only mean that for them, the gratification from the relationship they have with their spouse is insufficient. I already stated: IF - and it's a huge, bold, underlined italic Capital IF - there was no gratification for her, maybe the husband can also see aspects of the relationship in which his contribution might have been more concentrated. Maybe she is too emotionally needy, I don't know. But the husband isn't supposed to be some circus clown whose job is to continually provide entertainment for fear of a wife getting bored and considering having dinner with an old friend she admitted having past interest in. Nowhere did I ever imply he was.... A wife, and husband, are supposed to be loyal to one another through tough times and good times. You mentioned both. I mentioned both. So we're agreed. A relationship is a symbiotic mutual partnership where both look to one another. This has been my point throughout. So where's your issue?
DealingWDrama Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Marriage counseling is a def!!!! Aside from that...I would like to suggest a book I find incredible...The Five Love Languages by Gary Smalley - it will help you to understand one another. It seems like your W is interested in the spark and excitement that goes along with being rekindled...she is probably on the verge of an emotional affair - which leads to a physical affair 95% of the time. It's not too late...fix your marriage...good luck.
Lizzie60 Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 I disagree with this 100%!!! I am tired of people always blaming the BS for an affair. If you were neglecting a "need" of hers, she should come out an tell you instead of seeking someone outside of marriage. People need to learn that friendships of the opposite sex can and often lead to feelings, a person can be in a wonderful relationship but after 15 years if something new comes along feelings change. Do not blame yourself! A relationship does take two but an affair only takes one. How do you know she never mentioned anything. and it's not true that spouses automatically tell their SO if they are neglected.. not true at all.. especially for men.. sometimes it's so subtil that they don't get it.. and vice-versa... Whenever a partner is seeking an EA (which will lead to a PA in most cases) outside their relationship.. then both are to blame for miscommunication.. and sometimes (most cases) one is to blame more than the other.. simple as that.
Lizzie60 Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 1. My wife hasn't gone to dinner with her friend yet, this was going to be in a month when she stays at her sister's house during a business trip (sorry my mind wasn't very clear when I originally posted). 2. I did tell her a wanted her password to her secret email and she gave it up. After reading through all the emails (inbox, sent, deleted, old email folder) there were none that would have caused a problem with me. That's why I don't understand why she was hiding this from me. The emails even mentioned his daughter and our 2 kids, he even asked about me, it reads as 2 friends trying to catch up after 19 years. After a long drive and alot of thinking, we talked more about it and she still says she doesn't know why she tried to hide this but it would never happen again. I told her I didn't mind her talking with him as long as she wasn't hiding things from me and it was up to her about going to dinner with him (I know I could be setting myself up for a hard lesson) I did tell I may or may not check her emails and she had lost her privacy for now. OMG.. I simply don't buy that.. come on.. you got to be kidding yourself.. she was caught so she had to find something quick..and saying 'I really don't know why I did this' always work.. since she can't tell you the real reason..
lkjh Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 How do you know she never mentioned anything. and it's not true that spouses automatically tell their SO if they are neglected.. not true at all.. especially for men.. sometimes it's so subtil that they don't get it.. and vice-versa... Whenever a partner is seeking an EA (which will lead to a PA in most cases) outside their relationship.. then both are to blame for miscommunication.. and sometimes (most cases) one is to blame more than the other.. simple as that. Lizzie, Im going but what the post said, he never said she claim he was neglecting her! everyone trying to justify her actions just assumed that or made it up. It is her responsibility to let her H know things like that. Life is tough and you are going to have bad days, during the bad days you can not step out on your M and blame your SO. To your last point people don't simply seek an EA but after years of the same thing they put themselves in situations where it happens. I highly doubt most people in an affair just woke up one day and said hey Im missing comminication so I need to cheat now.
Geishawhelk Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Don't matter whether you think it, don't think it, say it, don't say it. It's still missing. Oh, and point out to me, specifically: where people have outright JUSTIFIED her actions..... Where she - or anyone else - has indicated that he is to blame.... Specific quotations for the above, ok? This should be interesting......
Al_Bundy Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 She said she has never cheated on me and never will. Oh but of course she is gonna say that. She's only infatuated with this guy, goes out to meet him, and is all of a sudden creating email accounts you didn't know about? Closing screens when you enter the room. If she hasn't cheated, she will. And even if she didn't, her attention to this other guy is totally inappropriate and disrespectftul to you. You need to drop the hammer and start getting angry. I don't think she see the urgency in your concerns unless you get downright mad and let her know it. My problem is that she flushed 15 years of complete and total trust down the drain, I love her with all my heart but my brain keeps kicking into self-protection mode. Any suggestions where to go from here? You need to let her know that the contact with him stops now. She needs to let the other guy know that she needs to respect you and that your marriage is more important than her silly little infatuation with another guy because it happens to be new and exciting. Either she is a wife, or she isn't. She needs to take her pick.
JamesM Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Some comments.... 1. I am with the ones who said that "there is something missing in your marriage if she feels the need to reconnect with a guy she had a crush on in the past." This is an issue that cannot be ignored. I understand how those who have been betrayed would have a hard time with accepting this, but affairs do not happen in a vacuum unless you are married to a sex addict. And if that were the case, 15 years of fidelity would not have happened. BSs are not just victims and WSs are not simply the victimizers. Marriages take two and when they fall apart for whatever reason, then it is not simply one who made that happen. 2. Her fantasy of him may hit reality when she actually has dinner with him. I don't remember reading where she actually has met him yet, so it may be the excitement that has her thinking right now. Why would he have appeal if your marriage is perfect? As someone said to me, if you do not seduce your wife, someone else will. 3. Why is she hiding her email account? Either something has happened or she is preparing for the "if something happens." While her emails and his responses may be "clean" for now, they may get steamy. And then she may need the privacy. It may all be in her head yet. Go back to the fantasy idea, and then you may see how SHE is wishing for something that he doesn't know about yet. 4. If your gut tells you that your wife is acting differently than she has for the past 15 years, then you already know that there is a problem. [/b]Your objective is not only to discover the alleged affair, but it is to discover what caused her to fantasize about this man. 5. As Lizzie said, "Whenever a partner is seeking an EA (which will lead to a PA in most cases) outside their relationship.. then both are to blame for miscommunication.. and sometimes (most cases) one is to blame more than the other.. simple as that." As an example, it is easy for us husbands to become so involved with our lives that we forget about our wives. As is the opposite. If you have felt that there is a disconnect, then RE-connect. So do not blame yourself, but if you ignore your own "contributions" to this situation, then you may never be able to solve the problem. She may not have cheated yet, but based on what you have said, she may be preparing to cheat....or it may simply be an escapism fantasy that she is using to bring some excitement to her life. There is no doubt that this discovery hurts, and there is no doubt that she is the one who is either cheating or thinking (rather fantasizing) about cheating, but it is not the end of your marriage.
jwi71 Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Geisha- He must accept some responsibility. If he is not meeting her needs then he contributes in creating necessary (but not sufficient) conditions for an A. If all her needs are met, then she doesn't go elsewhere to meet said needs. This is not to blame him for the actual affair (which may or may not have happened). That is 100% on her. True, no quotes where he is blamed - but it is inferred by her actions.
Geishawhelk Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Which is exactly what I said in my first (#2) - AND second (#16) posts.
Owl Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 James, in response to your comment below: I understand how those who have been betrayed would have a hard time with accepting this, but affairs do not happen in a vacuum unless you are married to a sex addict. And if that were the case, 15 years of fidelity would not have happened. BSs are not just victims and WSs are not simply the victimizers. Marriages take two and when they fall apart for whatever reason, then it is not simply one who made that happen. Honestly...I am in a marriage that exactly mirrored what you say doesn't happen. Point blank. I did NOTHING to contribute to the 'poor state of the marriage' in my case. NOTHING. The entire situation was due to my wife's choices. The stress in our marriage, etc... ...was all based on her choice to refuse treatment for depression. Choosing to quit he job, choosing to spend massive hours online gaming. I tried every tact I knew of to help. Talking, working with her, etc... Point blank...I understand that YOU feel that BS's might refuse to see their "role" in things. I would agree that there are times when they DO contribute heavily to the state of things. But I'll also point blank tell you that there are MANY times when the issue IS WITHIN THE WS THEMSELVES...its far more a character defect/flaw than any mistake that the BS makes. Many WS's are often self-centered...focused entirely on themselves. And THAT is the primary reason for the cheating...and there is often VERY, VERY little a BS can do to "change" them. Its not until something forces them to WANT to change that things that they'll ever even consider where the problems truly were.
Owl Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 In other words...yes, there likely was something "missing" in the marriage...but whatever was missing was missing from the WS...and they brought that 'lack' into the marriage with them. Often the BS is HELPLESS to improve things until the WS finally hits rock bottom and can make the changes that they needed to make all along.
Lizzie60 Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Lizzie, Im going but what the post said, he never said she claim he was neglecting her! everyone trying to justify her actions just assumed that or made it up. It is her responsibility to let her H know things like that. Life is tough and you are going to have bad days, during the bad days you can not step out on your M and blame your SO. To your last point people don't simply seek an EA but after years of the same thing they put themselves in situations where it happens. I highly doubt most people in an affair just woke up one day and said hey Im missing comminication so I need to cheat now. Not it's not as clear as that.. but sometimes people cannot put words to what they feel.. they just know something IS missing... or it's been such a looong time.. that it just went down the drain without anyone 'noticing' it.. then one day.. when an old crush comes along.. you're hooked... and you need to hide it from your partner.. and again.. it's hard to verbalize (for her anyway) that she is bored with him and she needs some kind of excitement that this 'old crush' provides her..
JamesM Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Point blank. I did NOTHING to contribute to the 'poor state of the marriage' in my case. NOTHING. The entire situation was due to my wife's choices. The stress in our marriage, etc... ...was all based on her choice to refuse treatment for depression. Choosing to quit he job, choosing to spend massive hours online gaming. I tried every tact I knew of to help. Talking, working with her, etc... Point blank...I understand that YOU feel that BS's might refuse to see their "role" in things. I would agree that there are times when they DO contribute heavily to the state of things. But I'll also point blank tell you that there are MANY times when the issue IS WITHIN THE WS THEMSELVES...its far more a character defect/flaw than any mistake that the BS makes. Owl, we have been down this road before. While I do agree that there are exceptions to the rule, by far the majority of marriages that end in affairs or divorce are the fault of both parties involved. Mental illness and major depression can be the exception, but even then the question becomes...what brought on the depression, and how was it handled? Since I live with one who gets depressed, has a lot of pain, takes many different pills for everything under the sun it seems, I can relate. But yet this does not mean that depression leads to cheating. And I know...you are not saying that. And I am and have tried every tact it seems to me to change my marriage, but yet I also know that the one thing I may not have tried may be the thing that changes everything. Owl, I do feel for you and what you have gone through. And I should probably say that there are exceptions to the rule...as in everything. But too often when BSs come here, the feeling given to them and given by them is that "I am only a victim and am not at fault in any way. The affair is 100% her/his fault." And I say that this is wrong in 99% of the time. While I believe that the above BS statement is usually a way to handle the hurt from the affair, it still needs to be shown that we must accept blame in order to fix the situation in which we find ourselves. Read Lizzie's post above mine. This is too often how an affair starts, and then neither party can understand what happened. Yet an outside person could easily show them how that affair could have been avoided.
Reggie Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 I feel I was in OWl's position, as well. I know that sounds self serving and there is no doubt that I ma not a perfect person. Yet, if I look at the issues in my marriage before the affairs, I am at a loss as to what I could have done differently. My XW, like a fair number of cheating spouses, would have nothing to do with marriage counseling or any type of attempt at communication re problems in our marriage. I broached the concept of getting help many, many times only to be derided and demeaned. Then, when I found out about the affairs, I consulted an attorney a law school classmate, who had once been a practicing soocial worker. In my discussions, I told my attorney how my wife would douse me with cold water when I showered and how she bounced thousands of dollars in checks. I related how she would say emasculating things about me and give me the silent treatment for days for infractions I had no idea bothered her. My attorney told me that I should research Borderline Personality Disorder which led me to also find out about NPD. Infidelity is rampant among the disordered, a much, much higher incidence than among the poplation in general. And, there is nothing one can do to make them get help. They hate the thought of looking within. There simply are quite a few situations where the BS could do nothing to prevent this stuff. The BS is powerless and nothing he or she does takes away the void in the WS. The assertion that in 99% of marriages both play a part is not accurate in my opinion. All marriages have issues but some of them stem entirely from the WS. The very fact that the WS sought out an affair as a way of dealing with the marital issues makes it more lilely that the Ws was the major contributor to the issues. It demonstrates a capacity for dishonesty, cruelty, and limited problem solving and communication skills that surely make the WS a less than ideal partner to begin with. This has been born out in the research done by those experts on infidelity. Time and again, I've read how they conclude that in the typical affair situation, it was the WS that was less invested, less of a contributor to the marriage even pre-affair. This is consistent with the demonstrated cruelty and selfishness evidenced by having cheated.
JamesM Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 I feel I was in OWl's position, as well. I suspect that every BS who posts here is not in the 99%.
Rooster_DAR Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 While I will agree with the spouse playing a part in an affair, we must not excuse the estranged partner for their actions. I would understand if the affairee tried to state their case and their spouse just ignored it, but much of the time I believe that is not the case. It's the responsibility of the person who's unhappy to come forth and present their problems to their spouse, not hide it and go underground so to speak. In my case, I put every effort in trying to get answers from my fiance before she slipped into and affair, I was met with denial and resistance which is not unusual. Not every case is the same, but I still believe the cheating spouse is usually the one who's at fault. Cheers!
Al_Bundy Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Geisha- He must accept some responsibility. If he is not meeting her needs then he contributes in creating necessary (but not sufficient) conditions for an A. If all her needs are met, then she doesn't go elsewhere to meet said needs. then maybe she doesn't need to be married. If she isn't getting her little "needs" met, then she should talk to him about it, and if something isn't done, then divorce. Otherwise its nothing but a case of him constantly trying to bend over backwards to meet some sort of "need" out of fear she will cheat. What needs did she not meet of his that didn't prompt him to go out and cheat? This is not to blame him for the actual affair Sure it is. You can't say, "YOU DIDN'T MEET HER NEEDS, THEREFORE SHE GOT IT ELSEWHERE!!! but I'm not blaming you":o Besides, where in the original post did it say he wasn't meeting her needs? It always has to be something the betrayed spouse did or didn't do, doesn't it?
Al_Bundy Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Many WS's are often self-centered...focused entirely on themselves. And THAT is the primary reason for the cheating...and there is often VERY, VERY little a BS can do to "change" them. Now come on Owl. That aint gonna fly with them. There had to be SOMETHING he did. He had to be neglecting her in some way.
jwi71 Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 then maybe she doesn't need to be married. If she isn't getting her little "needs" met, then she should talk to him about it, and if something isn't done, then divorce. 100% agree. A need is not met and the WS fails to act in a mature and courageous manner (namely communicate the unmet need(s)). I have said repeatedly the WS is 100% responsible for an A. Period. There is no excuse for it. And I promise it isn't the BS fault - despite what cheaters say. Anything else is "He/she made me do it" bullcrap my 5 year old occasionally pulls. The BS contributes to conditions that can lead to an affair. The WS actually has to do it. And that decision is solely on the WS. All human actions must have opportunity (unmet needs by BS) and will (the WS). Period. Sounds like we agree yet somehow got signals crossed. Oh...and for him not meet her needs. Suppostion at this point. It may be a flight of nostalgic fancy...or an EA on the verge of a PA. Who knows? If it is an A...then we have our answer.
Reggie Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 This whole "needs meeting" thing is absurd. No responsible adult expects another to "meet his/her needs". We are all responsible for our own happiness. If someone is not happy in a marriage the solution is simple, get help or get out. The whole "needs meeting" concept smacks of a sense of entitilement. I can guarrantee that if the BS's were polled, a very high percentage were not ectstatic at their Ws's "needs meeting abilities" pre A. It's pretty standard that a WS does not communicate his or her dissatisfaction to the BS before embarking on an affair. It is rare that the WS was making an appropriate effort and getting turned down. Of course, in the post A justification/blameshifting/marital history rewriting phase, we will hear differently. Just to big a justification motivation to attach much credence to these claims.
Geishawhelk Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 .... If she isn't getting her little "needs" met, then she should talk to him about it, and if something isn't done, then divorce. Otherwise its nothing but a case of him constantly trying to bend over backwards to meet some sort of "need" out of fear she will cheat. What needs did she not meet of his that didn't prompt him to go out and cheat?.... .... You can't say, "YOU DIDN'T MEET HER NEEDS, THEREFORE SHE GOT IT ELSEWHERE!!! but I'm not blaming you":o Besides, where in the original post did it say he wasn't meeting her needs? It always has to be something the betrayed spouse did or didn't do, doesn't it? Excuse mew... I hope nobody's taking my name in vain (! ) But nowhere did I imply this is all one sided, or any of his deliberate and conttrived fault. I have said all the way through that a marriage is a partnership that takes effort and commitment, communication and openness. She was wrong to do what she did, through and through, but in fact, the OP (in comparison to others who have posted here!) has actually contributed little to the thread to clarify further.... however, there has obviously been a huge breakdown somewhere along the line.... nobody is suggesting, anywhere, that all the effort and major repair work is down to the OP. Far from it. But something's out of kilter. I suggest we now wait for the OP to come back in and see if there is anything he'd like to add by way of elaboration, or clarification. Otherwise we're all spinning round the "it's his fault it's her fault no it isn't yes it is!!" And we're none of us any the wiser!
Lizzie60 Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 I find it rather amusing that she 'forgot' to mention it .. but each time you enter the room she wouldn't forget to delete the screen.. so you wouldn't see it.. Gawwdd... how can you be sooo naive.. come one now.. give yourself a whack with a newspaper or something.. you need a serious reality check.
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