soserious1 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 That orifice comment was put rather crudely, don'tcha think? It really is possible to have great sex, a good life, and extra perks and lots of satisfaction in a monogamous relationship. You just have to have the right partner. Yeah and it's possible to win a million dollars on the slots in Vegas, just gotta pick the right machine... of course odds are good you'll go bankrupt trying.
soserious1 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 You project your lousy husband on EVERYONE's marriage. Why? Do you need to believe everyone has a sucky marriage because you did? Lol, I know that while you're busy washing the skid marks out of your hubby's BVD's or stuck playing nurse's aid to his elderly parents I'll be doing something a little more interesting. Oh well, guess we each define bliss differently.
Meaplus3 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Well, one of the main reasons I divorced my husband is because I realized early on that my daughter's happiness and emotional health were at risk if I stayed in the marriage. I did the right thing. Today she is a healthy,happy,well-balanced and accomplished individual. My daughter says the exact same thing that you do, Pyro. She always says thank goodness, mom, that you had the sense to divorce him when you did. I would have been a basket case if you hadn't. If a marriage is bad, we owe it to our kids to get out. Marlena, YOU are so spot on here. I'm glad it worked out for your daughter and I know for a fact my children will one day say the same. AP:)
soserious1 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 And once again the bashes on marriage in totality. You know nothing about my guy - my completely self sufficient guy who doesn't WANT me to do his laundry (nor does he wear undies ). He has Sunday and Monday off, so he's home cooking dinner for me right now. I feel sorry for you. When YOU are old and being nurse maided by a complete stranger who doesn't give a rat's arse for you except that you are part of the reason they collect a paycheck, you might wish you could go back and do some things differently. I would prefer to have professional caregivers tend to me in my old age. The only thing I regret and would do differently if I could was the years I spent being a loyal,faithful hard working wife.I'd have more of my own money now to provide for myself in my retirement years.
marlena Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 I'm glad it worked out for your daughter and I know for a fact my children will one day say the same. Your children will thank you one day when they are old enough to understand. One stable, loving, devoted parent is better than two abusive parents.
soserious1 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 And I don't blame you for that regret. I've known some men who tried to suck the life right outta me, but I kicked 'em to the curb and refused to allow them to change me. Men aren't all the same just as women aren't all the same. Some lie and cheat, some are lazy and selfish. Some aren't. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad you're happy. I am. No one should be miserable. It's just sad that you'll never give another man a chance for a real relationship because one ruined that for you forever. A "real relationship", ah yes, one in which I get to "sacrifice" by taking on the role of step mother to a set of pre-existing kids or in which I get to pay the bulk of his living expenses because he's too broke from paying child support to pay his fair share. Nights spent cooking,cleaning doing laundry while he stares at the TV or sits in his den surfing for porn. At my age everybody's got baggage,everybody, no exceptions, the kind of baggage most guys in my age range are carrying isn't anything that interests me. I enjoy travel, fine dining, concerts,movies, being able to treat myself to some of life's little luxuries. Giving all that up in the interests of a prospective partner's pre-existing family obligations totally leaves me cold. I reared my family, I did my duty,I acted responsibly in a crumbling marriage and exited that marriage directly without being unfaithful or dishonoring anybody I'm not interested in a second go round, not interested at all.
soserious1 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 My guy's son is off to college. He has no child support, no alimony. We are both free of debt with the exception of the house loan. My man cooks and cleans - hell, he cleans more than I do! Our dream is to play music together. He has lots of instruments and recording equipment, and we sing harmony together beautifully. We share the same passions. He rarely sits at the computer. In fact, he'd rather spend time talking with me or going out doing karaoke or dancing or shooting pool or whatever we both like. Our relationship is wonderful and based on mutual respect and love, and our sex life is hot, HOT, HOT! He is proud to have me on his arm when we're out together, and I him. Like I said, don't ascribe YOUR sucky relationship to everyone's. I know it may be comforting to do so, but you're not doing so from a basis of reality. You're immersed, sadly, in your own awful history and refuse to see any other possibilities. ok, and you sure are doing the hard sell extolling the virtues of marriage, ascribing your own experiences onto everybody else. I don't want to be married, I don't want a life like yours, I think the whole monogamy concept is flawed. I want to be single and want to have hot sex with casual partners without any strings or obligations. I see the öther possibilities" and I don't want them.
Author Lizzie60 Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 Also, back in the day, it was very hard for a woman to leave a marriage. It was excepted (on some level) if a man was abusive or had other women. If the woman left, she might be ostrisized from her family and the rest of society. She would have found it almost impossible to support herself or children if she had any because, women just didn't work back then. In this sense, things have changed for the better. Totally agree.. that was my point..
Author Lizzie60 Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 I can't argue with either the facts or the stats. How could I after a 25 year marriage that ultimately failed? However, I'm not the one who left. I believed strongly in the vows I took back in 1969 and I did my level best (the best I could given who and what I was at the time) to achieve reconciliation. Obviously it wasn't good enough and at this juncture, given what's occurred since, I have to admit I'm glad. At the time, however, it was devastating. There are many who wouldn't put up with my wife because she's bipolar and that can decidedly be challenging to live with. But once again, vows trump convenience and we're about to embark on a very secure and enjoyable retirement beginning December 30. We love each other dearly and have survived her late 40s and 50s and my 50s and early 60s together and we both take comfort in the prospect of growing old together, whenever that starts! None of us can encapsulate life for the rest of us and I think our story proves that. While "society" may accept and minimize the concept of marriage and accept reality of divorce, that doesn't typify all of us by any means. In fact, I feel a bit sorry for those whose attitude towards them is so cavalier. They don't know what they're missing. Ha-hem.. if I'm not mistaking ...you posted about some serious problems with your current wife.. you were about to end your M.. or maybe I'm wrong..
Author Lizzie60 Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 That orifice comment was put rather crudely, don'tcha think? It really is possible to have great sex, a good life, and extra perks and lots of satisfaction in a monogamous relationship. You just have to have the right partner. Of course it is possible.. I never said it wasn't.. it just NOT possible on a long term basis..
Author Lizzie60 Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 And once again the bashes on marriage in totality. You know nothing about my guy - my completely self sufficient guy who doesn't WANT me to do his laundry (nor does he wear undies ). He has Sunday and Monday off, so he's home cooking dinner for me right now. I feel sorry for you. When YOU are old and being nurse maided by a complete stranger who doesn't give a rat's arse for you except that you are part of the reason they collect a paycheck, you might wish you could go back and do some things differently. What is YOUR guarantee that this won't happen to you????
Curmudgeon Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Ha-hem.. if I'm not mistaking ...you posted about some serious problems with your current wife.. you were about to end your M.. or maybe I'm wrong.. You're not at all mistaken. There were some problems. What a surprise for two people with a congregate 100+ years of history between them. The thought of calling it off occurred for a bit but a cooler head prevailed -- mine -- and we're back on track and looking forward to a comfortable, worry-free and secure retirement together, and have been in the 18 or so months since. Venting helps, even if it's just here. So does commitment. I guess you could say that neither of us has a fear of flying, nor will we let the past dictate and limit our future. Back to the original premise that the only deal-breakers are abuse or infidelity, neither of which has ever occurred. That I became disheartened, despondent and distressed for a time is actually a good thing after all. It shows I have feelings! PS. Nice job of an ad hominem response, Lizzie. You've yet to address the issue of your declarations of expertise about an issue you've yet to personally experience.
Mr. Lucky Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 In theory, it sounds good. In practice, it is a different story all together. We all begin our married life with the best of intentions. No one intends or wants to divorce. We all really do want a happy ending. But, alas, real life takes over and things often take an unexpected turn. People change,emotions change, the pressures of marriage and parenthood pile up, boredom settles in, needs don't get met, temptation lurks. The reality staring at you in the face is very different from the fantasy of "happily ever after." These are the hard facts of life. Reality is not a romance novel. No, reality is not a romance novel. And while the things that have worked to keep me still happy and content after 20 years don't apply to everyone, neither do the things that didn't work for you. Your best chance comes from expecting to get out of it what you're willing to put in. Even then, as I'm sure you'll point out, there's no guarantees. LS clearly documents that... Mr. Lucky
Sks Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 Well, one of the main reasons I divorced my husband is because I realized early on that my daughter's happiness and emotional health were at risk if I stayed in the marriage. I did the right thing. Today she is a healthy,happy,well-balanced and accomplished individual. My daughter says the exact same thing that you do, Pyro. She always says thank goodness, mom, that you had the sense to divorce him when you did. I would have been a basket case if you hadn't. If a marriage is bad, we owe it to our kids to get out. It is called "silencing yourself" and "getting along" until your kid turns 18. You and your husband could hate each other, but still act respectful in front of the kids. If one spouse is beating the other spouse, then I see divorce as an understandable course of action - but short of physical abuse I really don't see a reason to. The loss of "family" values is caused by the loss of values in the parents and loss of the family structure which I believe is necessary to raise children.
sb129 Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 It is called "silencing yourself" and "getting along" until your kid turns 18. You and your husband could hate each other, but still act respectful in front of the kids. . I know one couple who did this and it didn't fool their kids one little bit. Living in a household full of unspoken hostility and tension was more damaging to the kids than it would have been if their parents had made a clean break when they realised their marriage was over. I think it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to hide the fact that you "hate" eachother from your children. And if you DID manage to, then wouldn't the immense shock when you did split be damaging to the children too? Most children of divorce that I know were relieved when their parents split because it was an end to the fighting and unhappiness, and it gave their parents a chance to find happiness again. I haven't read the whole thread. I would like to believe in the "ideal" of marriage, but I am not naive enough to think that its happily ever after all the time. I am getting married in a few months, and I didn't realise how much I valued it until I got engaged (total surprise- he asked me and I didn't see it coming at all. I assumed we would just live together long term). I think my fiance truly does want to marry me for all the right reasons, I know he wants to have a family. Luckily neither of us have too much baggage and we are both in our early 30s so we are mature enough to know that we will have to work at our R to make it work long term. Nobody goes into marriage expecting to divorce- but you do need to be realistic about it. I know what the absolute dealbreakers are in our R, and I will do my best to honour that. I also don;t think I would bother getting married a second time around- I kind of think that if you break the vows once, its not worth taking them again- but thats just my opinion, others may beg to differ.
Curmudgeon Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 Divorce in some cases is a blessing in disguise. Absolutely. Mine certainly turned out to be one.
Trialbyfire Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 I also don;t think I would bother getting married a second time around- I kind of think that if you break the vows once, its not worth taking them again- but thats just my opinion, others may beg to differ. I completely agree with you about not staying together for the kids. Kids aren't stupid and can sense tension and anger. They're also not learning how to behave within a loving marriage. Better they have two loving, happy parents in separate residents, than two angry, bitter and unhappy parents. As for getting remarried, this is where we disagree. Marriage is for two people who want to be together who believe in the institution of it and walk into it as two responsible adults, eyes wide open. I would do it again with the right man. Haven't found him yet but perhaps that's because I'm reluctant to give up my freedom. I'm hoping with the right man, it won't be a struggle to do so, just a natural progression towards this. Who know, not I but I'm optomistic this will happen!
GPFan Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 PS. Nice job of an ad hominem response, Lizzie. You've yet to address the issue of your declarations of expertise about an issue you've yet to personally experience.Good question. I am interested in Lizzie's response also.
cutegirl Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 I don't think Lizzie has to experience marriage necessarily in order to gather that's how many men feel. One can probably gather that's how men feel by talking to many men and observing them vs the experience of just one person who has been married. As her being the other woman she probably has more insight into how a lot of men think.... I tend to agree, I think a lot of men marry for stability and then have their sex and fun and love or whatever else they need on the side.
angie2443 Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 I don't think Lizzie has to experience marriage necessarily in order to gather that's how many men feel. One can probably gather that's how men feel by talking to many men and observing them vs the experience of just one person who has been married. As her being the other woman she probably has more insight into how a lot of men think.... I tend to agree, I think a lot of men marry for stability and then have their sex and fun and love or whatever else they need on the side. The problem with your thinking, is, someone like Lizzie is going to attract a certain type of man and socialize with a certain type of man. Men who respect their families are not going to be confortable in socializing with someone like Lizzie. Her views are very skewed in that sense.
GPFan Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 I don't think Lizzie has to experience marriage necessarily in order to gather that's how many men feel. One can probably gather that's how men feel by talking to many men and observing them vs the experience of just one person who has been married. As her being the other woman she probably has more insight into how a lot of men think.... I tend to agree, I think a lot of men marry for stability and then have their sex and fun and love or whatever else they need on the side.I believe the question is very relevant as Lizzie has preached her gospel around these forums with as much fervor as any televangelist. She responded as follows to a prior query of mine on this thread:I never believed in marriage.. With my first ex, I lived common-law 18 years AFTER an 11 year affair. (total of 29 years, which is a loooong time).. then I lived common-law with my 2nd ex for 5 years.. he wanted to marry me on my 50th bd. I left before.. I never believed in the 'vows'.. that's religious B/S..Note she never believed in marriage. She began her career as an other woman at the tender age of 15 thus, if I am interpreting her words correctly, she made the decision to not believe in marriage during that time. She has stated in this thread that people marrying in their late teens and early twenties are far too young to make a proper decision. I have to disagree.. the younger you are, the less likely you know yourself and know what you want and don't want.. Young people DO NOT analyse themselves or their stbpartner.. they just go with the 'feelings' they have at the moment. I think, marriage is like education, when you're young, there is no way you know for sure that's what you want to do with your life. no way. When I see people, in their early 20s, getting married.. I know it won't last, not in this day and age.. no way.. it's way too young. Apparently, I read somewhere, that we change work/career orientation every 5 years or so.. I think it's about the same on the personal level? My question in response would be, what age is too young to decide that marriage has no relevance and then embark upon an 11-year career as an other woman. Do we have here an example of the self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps? Lizzie did, according to her, stop long enough to raise her children which is commendable. If I recall correctly, Lizzie had a child with a man who wasn't her married lover and then arranged to live with her now-divorced lover and have another child with him. Whatever her views on the relevance or non-relevance of marriage, it appears she did desire to provide a stable home and façade of committed relationship for the benefit of her children. This was, in all likelihood, a good decision. In all of this, we are to understand that Lizzie was never truly committed to any of these men and even, when proposed to by the second man she lived with, walked away to find freedom, happiness and continued other womanhood. It is disingenuous to ask us to defer to Lizzie's great wisdom on all topics related to marriage. I do not see where this great pool of wisdom springs from as there is not great depth nor breadth of experiences represented here. I would defer to Lizzie as a subject matter expert on sex and attraction. She does well enough in the area of sex and attraction to have a successful business based upon her expertise, however I would not consult with her on my marriage successes nor failures.
GPFan Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 The problem with your thinking, is, someone like Lizzie is going to attract a certain type of man and socialize with a certain type of man. Men who respect their families are not going to be confortable in socializing with someone like Lizzie. Her views are very skewed in that sense.I agree. Where in all of Lizzie's experiences as related here does she even entertain the notion of forming a truly committed relationship? She would no more be attracted to these types of men than they would be to her.
Author Lizzie60 Posted October 14, 2008 Author Posted October 14, 2008 I don't think Lizzie has to experience marriage necessarily in order to gather that's how many men feel. One can probably gather that's how men feel by talking to many men and observing them vs the experience of just one person who has been married. As her being the other woman she probably has more insight into how a lot of men think.... I tend to agree, I think a lot of men marry for stability and then have their sex and fun and love or whatever else they need on the side. Thank you.. you answered it for me.. and as far as marriage goes.. I had 2 long relationships.. the first one lasted 18 years.. so I think it's just about the equivalent as a married relationship except for the piece of paper.
Author Lizzie60 Posted October 14, 2008 Author Posted October 14, 2008 The problem with your thinking, is, someone like Lizzie is going to attract a certain type of man and socialize with a certain type of man. Men who respect their families are not going to be confortable in socializing with someone like Lizzie. Her views are very skewed in that sense. Thing is.. my colleagues have absolutely NO idea of my lifestyle.. as most people don't... this is a very secret part of my life. I have tons of friends and acquaintances who also have no idea.. so to say that my views are skewed doesn't make sense..
Author Lizzie60 Posted October 14, 2008 Author Posted October 14, 2008 And if you're smart as soon as the last child is grown and gone,you're joining them in running out the door screaming free at last,free at last at the top of your lungs! Being married wasn't worth all the sacrifices I had to make, all the things I had to give up, I'm glad to be getting divorced, very glad:) hahahaha.. hilarious.. I can picture you running out the door..
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