Mr. Lucky Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 The times have changed and this is the new reality. Nothing one can do about it. Sure there is but you have to be willing to do the work. If it's my relationship or marriage we're talking about, the norms of society or changing times have only a tiny fraction of the impact that my commitment and efforts do. Whether it's the Middle Ages or the 21st Century, the basic priciples of affection, consideration, respect and selflessness are still unchanged and -if not more so - just as important... Mr. Lucky
fral945 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 While for the most part, I share TBF's point of view, I definitely think expectations have increased. This is progress, and nothing new. In the early middle ages; one didn't even expect to choose her/his own partner. Concubines, multiple wives and use of prostitutes were totally accepted for those w/ fiancial means. Women were property etc... you get it. We could then go through the history and how, for the most part, there was a steady move toward greater expectations of the individuals with respects to their own marriage. That's what I was trying to emphasize, that marriage now is more about the individual partners' wants and needs. Therefore, obviously the expectations will be higher (especially for women, considering how little freedom they had previously in marriage). It started out as a societal construct done for the benefit of society and was not all that concerned about fulfilling the individuals' needs, wants, and desires (though it obviously favored men). Now it is more about the individual. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just the reality.
marlena Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Sure there is but you have to be willing to do the work. If it's my relationship or marriage we're talking about, the norms of society or changing times have only a tiny fraction of the impact that my commitment and efforts do. Whether it's the Middle Ages or the 21st Century, the basic priciples of affection, consideration, respect and selflessness are still unchanged and -if not more so - just as important... In theory, it sounds good. In practice, it is a different story all together. We all begin our married life with the best of intentions. No one intends or wants to divorce. We all really do want a happy ending. But, alas, real life takes over and things often take an unexpected turn. People change,emotions change, the pressures of marriage and parenthood pile up, boredom settles in, needs don't get met, temptation lurks. The reality staring at you in the face is very different from the fantasy of "happily ever after." These are the hard facts of life. Reality is not a romance novel.
soserious1 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 .............. Too many people get married on a whim and divorce on a whim as well, there is no honor or sacrifice, only self interest. No one is looking for the greater good, the long-term, no one seems to be willing to sacrifice themselves for something more important. The world is not about immediate pleasure, at least not to me. It does not take much to be happy if you don't have all the expectations. Maybe I just have a greater sense of responsibility........... "Honor, sacrifice" words best reserved for joining the Marines or being a nun or priest imho As far as sacrificing myself and my interests for "something more important" sorry but I don't consider giving up my needs and wants in order for somebody else to eat,sleep, and spend his day surfing for porn or ogling college girls at the local gym to be a worthwhile trade. Being "responsible" having no expectations, foregoing pleasure, sorry but why bother?
GoodOnPaper Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 As for the OP, and the guy not feeling in love anymore. I'm sure this is reality for many; but I wonder how much of it is simply a matter of being unable to understand deeper emotions of connectedness. Without that capacity, I would think it would be hard to still feel excitement and love for your partner when the "newness" is gone maybe? Good point and it goes along with TBF's comments on how important it is to really know YOURSELF. I often beat myself up for not applying my 40-year-old perspective to decisions I made or didn't make when I was in my 20's, but the reality is that it can be hard to understand the long-term view when you are young, hormone-saturated, and anxious to move on to the next stage in life. From a guy's persepctive, I think the disconnect between the skill set required to attract women compared to that required to maintain a relationship doesn't help matters. Many consider losing attachment to outcome an essential character trait for attracting women -- not exactly good practice for understanding deeper emotions. At the opposite end of the spectrum, those of us who cultivate relationships in hopes to compensate for inadequacy in attracting lots of women can find ourselves in an LTR before we really understand what the long-term view means.
soserious1 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Only a marine can be honorable? Wow. the decription of marriage as he gave it made it sound about as appealing as being shipped off to boot camp.In my direct experience all being honorable during my marriage got me was years of sexlessness and a lifetime alimony bill. Marriage imho is a joke, if I want responsibility I'll get a dog, as far as men go,casual flings only, I don't want to hear about your problems and won't bore you with mine, just pleasure and please don't let the door hit you too hard on your way out when we're done.
soserious1 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Sorry you have no ability to choose a good woman to partner up with. But don't paint the entire institution of marriage and relationships with the paintbrush that was provided to you via your personal marital experiences. I'm also sorry that you will remain so bitter and unhappy the rest of your life. Actually, I just had the best weekend I've enjoyed in YEARS. Instead of being at my desk at work,slaving away to support my ex-husband or running around cleaning and cooking. I spent my weekend in a 4 star hotel, getting pumped in every orifice I've got, drinking good wine, eating gourmet food and in general just enjoying the fruits of all my hard work. Being divorced is really not a bad deal, life is a lot more focused on my needs than it EVER was during all the years I was married
lonelyandfrustrated Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Actually, I just had the best weekend I've enjoyed in YEARS. Instead of being at my desk at work,slaving away to support my ex-husband or running around cleaning and cooking. I spent my weekend in a 4 star hotel, getting pumped in every orifice I've got, drinking good wine, eating gourmet food and in general just enjoying the fruits of all my hard work. Being divorced is really not a bad deal You make it sound so glam! Sounds like a great weekend.
Sks Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 "Honor, sacrifice" words best reserved for joining the Marines or being a nun or priest imho As far as sacrificing myself and my interests for "something more important" sorry but I don't consider giving up my needs and wants in order for somebody else to eat,sleep, and spend his day surfing for porn or ogling college girls at the local gym to be a worthwhile trade. Being "responsible" having no expectations, foregoing pleasure, sorry but why bother? What is the ultimate purpose of marriage? To create a stable environment to produce children, passing on your genetics. Everything else is just extra. Both parties need to work, and sacrifice for that stable environment to be maintained. If you are unhappy it does not matter, at least not while children are present.
Ruby Slippers Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Actually, I just had the best weekend I've enjoyed in YEARS. Instead of being at my desk at work,slaving away to support my ex-husband or running around cleaning and cooking. I spent my weekend in a 4 star hotel, getting pumped in every orifice I've got, drinking good wine, eating gourmet food and in general just enjoying the fruits of all my hard work. Being divorced is really not a bad deal, life is a lot more focused on my needs than it EVER was during all the years I was married I am so glad to hear this! I have really been pulling for you, and I'm glad you are enjoying your freedom! I had a feeling it wouldn't be long. As for marriage, I am definitely much more doubtful about it than I used to be. I am starting to think I don't even want kids or the whole traditional thing. A very smart friend told me recently he thought I shouldn't have kids because, he said, "Kids are for average people, and you're not average." (His words, not mine.) I give my all to relationships, but I am starting to think it's foolish to expect one to last a lifetime, and not to have a backup plan. I do think that society does not encourage and reward long-term commitment the way it did in previous generations. Modern society is far more self-focused, and everything is disposable or upgradable -- the I culture -- and that has its good and bad sides. I will ALWAYS have a backup plan, and realize that longevity in love is not guaranteed, no matter how much we both put into it. I have always been good at taking care of myself, so I can do that. I'm starting to think the best way to look at a relationship is as something nice but not necessary. It takes the pressure off and gives you the freedom to just enjoy.
marlena Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 I will ALWAYS have a backup plan, and realize that longevity in love is not guaranteed, no matter how much we both put into it. I have always been good at taking care of myself, so I can do that. I'm starting to think the best way to look at a relationship is as something nice but not necessary. It takes the pressure off and gives you the freedom to just enjoy. This in my opinion is a very healthy way to look at relationships because it is realistic. I don't believe in the tradition of taking vows when getting married. They are nothing but romantic fluff. You can not promise to have the same emotions for a lifetime. It is ridiculous nonsense and should be done away with as all it does is perpetuate the myth. Of course, some people believe that vows are an oath of responsibilty and loyalty that must be honoured at whatever cost. Personally, I believe that staying in an unhappy marriage out of a moral or religious sense of duty is sheer idiocy and a terrible and tragic waste. It is a life misspent. Sacrificing one own's happiness for others is counter-productive and self-defeating as you can not make others happy when you yourself are unhappy.
Pyro Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 I will ALWAYS have a backup plan, and realize that longevity in love is not guaranteed, no matter how much we both put into it. I have always been good at taking care of myself, so I can do that. I'm starting to think the best way to look at a relationship is as something nice but not necessary. It takes the pressure off and gives you the freedom to just enjoy. Brilliant words. If only everyone could view relationships like that.
Pyro Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 I agree that NO ONE should place themselves at anybody's mercy. However, everyone can act "honorably" in a marriage or any other situation. If you fall out of love or you find yourself married to a loser who thinks you should pay him homage as well as his way in life, then you exit the marriage with grace and dignity. One should also remember that just because your one marriage sucked, they don't ALL suck. It all depends on who you partner up with. No disagreements on my behalf.
You'reasian Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 What is the ultimate purpose of marriage? To create a stable environment to produce children, passing on your genetics. Everything else is just extra. Both parties need to work, and sacrifice for that stable environment to be maintained. If you are unhappy it does not matter, at least not while children are present. I second that. If you have children in your life, a parent owes it to their child to create a stable environment. As I've been told, single parenting is no cake-walk - and having the support of two loving parents would certainly make it easier and more stable. We're seeing folks here who do not believe in the nuclear family concept - but this is one of many things that built our nation and made it great, even during tough times.
marlena Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 but this is one of many things that built our nation and made it great, America did not invent the nuclear family, for heaven's sake, nor did it make it a great nation. What an insane notion!
Trialbyfire Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 America did not invent the nuclear family, for heaven's sake, nor did it make it a great nation. What an insane notion! How about the nucular family?
marlena Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 How about the nucular family? Oh, TBF, I can't stop LMAO!!!! :laugh::laugh:
Pyro Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 I second that. If you have children in your life, a parent owes it to their child to create a stable environment. As I've been told, single parenting is no cake-walk - and having the support of two loving parents would certainly make it easier and more stable. Do you honestly think that its possible for a stable environment when one or both of the parents are abusive towards each other or if affairs are happening on the side. Staying together for the kids is ridiculous, IMO.
marlena Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Staying together for the kids is ridiculous, IMO. Actually, it is criminal if there is any kind of abuse going on at home.
Pyro Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Actually, it is criminal if there is any kind of abuse going on at home. But of course, and if mom and dad call each other a POS on a daily basis and degrade each other through words, then they obviously are not fit to be married and should divorce.
marlena Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 You mean Todd and Sarah? Don't forget Trig, Mig, Jig or whatever!!:p:p Yup, a real nucular family is that one!!
marlena Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 But of course, and if mom and dad call each other a POS on a daily basis and degrade each other through words, then they obviously are not fit to be married and should divorce. Absolutely. They are neither fit to be partners nor parents. Why should innocent kids be forced to witness this kind of abusive behaviour? Divorce in some cases is a blessing in disguise.
Pyro Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Absolutely. They are neither fit to be partners nor parents. Why should innocent kids be forced to witness this kind of abusive behaviour? Divorce in some cases is a blessing in disguise. Exactly. If or when an individual becomes an abusive person themselves, where do you think they got it from? My mom and dad married because she became pregnant with my older brother at 19 and 18 years later they were divorced and it was the best thing for both of them. I can't stand my moms husband but thats a different story all together.
marlena Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Well, one of the main reasons I divorced my husband is because I realized early on that my daughter's happiness and emotional health were at risk if I stayed in the marriage. I did the right thing. Today she is a healthy,happy,well-balanced and accomplished individual. My daughter says the exact same thing that you do, Pyro. She always says thank goodness, mom, that you had the sense to divorce him when you did. I would have been a basket case if you hadn't. If a marriage is bad, we owe it to our kids to get out.
soserious1 Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 What is the ultimate purpose of marriage? To create a stable environment to produce children, passing on your genetics. Everything else is just extra. Both parties need to work, and sacrifice for that stable environment to be maintained. If you are unhappy it does not matter, at least not while children are present. And if you're smart as soon as the last child is grown and gone,you're joining them in running out the door screaming free at last,free at last at the top of your lungs! Being married wasn't worth all the sacrifices I had to make, all the things I had to give up, I'm glad to be getting divorced, very glad:)
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