What marriage means for some men...

[Trialbyfire]

Ha.. you're already a statistic.. no matter what your attitude is.. there is no hope these days and age, for a long term relationship/marriage .. whatever.. nothing even close to what our grandparents lived.. because in those years.. women could not leave.. now they do.. they don't take crap anymore.. and it's this is not just the point.. the point is.. no one can love the same person forever.. it just doesn't happen.

Oh come on, Lizzie. You know better than that. Or do you? Have you never been exposed to a happy marriage before? I can honestly say I've seen more than enough of them to know they exist.

 

Sure, I married a retard with a disorder. My fault. It won't happen again.

 

If I someday end up with the right person, then I'm all for marriage. For the interim, I enjoy being single. It's fun to date around, even have short-term relationships. I do it for free.

[Touche]

Of course some work. I'm lucky enough to have one of them that does. Married 13 years. Has it been perfect? Of course not!! No way!

 

I've made mistakes that he's forgiven me for and he's made mistakes that I've forgiven him for.

 

We're not perfect. Show me a marriage that is.

 

We've never had an affair with another person...never.

 

Have we fought and flirted with others (well me, not him )and disagreed over the 14 years we've been together? Of course.

 

But we've also sat down and talked and made up and decided that there's no way in hell we want to live our lives without each other. We're both still extremely attracted to each other in every way. We talk still for hours and hours..planning and making our dreams come true. And yes, sex is still good.

 

And probably most importantly, we laugh and laugh and joke and chat all the time. That's my favorite part about being married to Mr. T.

 

Does it mean that we'll never disagree or even look at someone and not find another attractive? Of course not. But we're committed. We have no interest in being with another.

 

It's just that simple. It's about making a commitment and sticking to it.

 

We weren't kids when we got together. We'd both already gone through the "wringer" as far as marriage and relationships.

 

We sat down and seriously, I mean very seriously, discussed EVERYTHING there was to discuss before we decided to get married again (for the 2nd time for each of us.)

 

So here we are now after 14 years together...it's unreal.

 

I love the last two posts...Lizzie who is way too cynical and TBF who might be a little too idealistic.

 

It's like another posted earlier. The best attitude (and marriages) fall somewhere in between those two extremes...those two extreme ways of thinking.

 

At least that's been my experience.

[Trialbyfire]

My idealism comes from marriages I've seen. No doubt there are graduating levels of not-as-idealistic marriages. Some marriages are purely dysfunctional. It's all what you're comfortable with.

[Touche]

My idealism comes from marriages I've seen. No doubt there are graduating levels of not-as-idealistic marriages. Some marriages are purely dysfunctional. It's all what you're comfortable with.

 

I agree...to a point. You see only what people let you see. You're not behind their closed doors. You're not. (Now I sound like Lizzie!)

 

But you know what I mean. I mean I think some people are totally unrealistic in their expectations of marriage.

 

But in essence I do agree with what you're saying above. What's right for one person/couple would never in a million years work for another person or couple.

 

It's really so individual, isn't it? We really can't judge can we?

 

Because if it works for a couple or if it works for a "single" then what the hell, right?

 

We all shouldn't be so judgmental. If we're happy while we're on this earth for the short time we have, then I'm happy and support anyone who has a piece of happiness.

 

We should all judge each other less and support each other more I think, right?

[Lizzie60]

To say that we don't believe in 'till death do us part' is not being judgemental.. ... it's just stating the facts.. or the stats..

 

We already are in disposable relationships.. and it's not going to get better.. we're not even 'there' yet.

[Trialbyfire]

No one can read each other's minds and nothing is guaranteed in life. Having said that, there are people who will be honest about their lives, for example my parents, who are wide open about most things, including attraction to others but not indulging.

 

I went through this entire process with them when my marriage broke up. Even my living grandparents participated to help me move forward from my exes cheating. There were no secrets left and I greatly admire that they were able to come forward and discuss all this, to my benefit.

 

These are the types of marriages that I want and hopefully, will have one day. Sure, no one's perfect but when it comes to infidelity, it has to be perfect or forget it.

[KismetGirl]

I have to admit, I am also curious. I think Lizzie mentioned earlier....how many people on here are in their FIRST marraige and it has more or less happily stayed together for at least 15-20 years? Not stayed because of kids, not stayed in spite of one of them having an affair. I mean, How many people have been together now adays for that long, on a FIRST marraige, and it worked out? Im not saying every year was perfect, thats impossible, ther e are fights, bad spells, what have you, but I dont know anyone except maybe one couple out of the tons and tons of married couples ive seen go by that is still together after 20 years, from a first mariage, and neitehr partner has ever cheated. It's a rarity....I dont think most peopel really know what they want when they first get married. but then they make a family, and they might realize its not really what they wanted or who they wanted, but they're stuck. So they either stick it out being miserable all the wile, or they cheat, or they end up divorced and THEN maybe finally find a lasting R that works for them.

 

Hell my grandparents have been together for over 50 yeas. They're a funny couple, and after 50+ years you just become beyond comfortable with each other, but my grandfather had mistresses in every city across the USSR when they lived there , it was just accepted that men did this and so he did it. Grandmother knew and didnt care so long as his priorities stayed with the "main" family. I love them both, but if they grew up nowadays instead of back then and in the society they were in, grandma wouldnt have put up with it, me thinks. Just a different day and age. Marraiges were not more successful back in the day, they jsut stayed together for different reasons. Divorce just wsn't a word in their vocabulary.

[Lizzie60]

I have to admit, I am also curious. I think Lizzie mentioned earlier....how many people on here are in their FIRST marraige and it has more or less happily stayed together for at least 15-20 years? Not stayed because of kids, not stayed in spite of one of them having an affair. I mean, How many people have been together now adays for that long, on a FIRST marraige, and it worked out? Im not saying every year was perfect, thats impossible, ther e are fights, bad spells, what have you, but I dont know anyone except maybe one couple out of the tons and tons of married couples ive seen go by that is still together after 20 years, from a first mariage, and neitehr partner has ever cheated. It's a rarity....I dont think most peopel really know what they want when they first get married. but then they make a family, and they might realize its not really what they wanted or who they wanted, but they're stuck. So they either stick it out being miserable all the wile, or they cheat, or they end up divorced and THEN maybe finally find a lasting R that works for them.

 

Hell my grandparents have been together for over 50 yeas. They're a funny couple, and after 50+ years you just become beyond comfortable with each other, but my grandfather had mistresses in every city across the USSR when they lived there , it was just accepted that men did this and so he did it. Grandmother knew and didnt care so long as his priorities stayed with the "main" family. I love them both, but if they grew up nowadays instead of back then and in the society they were in, grandma wouldnt have put up with it, me thinks. Just a different day and age. Marraiges were not more successful back in the day, they jsut stayed together for different reasons. Divorce just wsn't a word in their vocabulary.

 

And divorce back then wasn't even an option for a woman with 10 kids..

[Trialbyfire]

Straight up, I think people who get married in their twenties should reconsider and seriously do some research as to what marriage is all about and what it takes to make a marriage work, including the type of person you're the most compatible with.

 

In the past, sure, people stumbled their way to successful marriages, putting up with all kinds of crap including infidelity. With extended lifespans, I just don't think people need to put up with horrific experiences. Time for people to really get to know each other and be realistic about what they want AND most importantly, what they NEED.

 

If you're the type of person who needs constant validation, don't get married, unless you find someone who's an enabler. If you lack self control, have an open marriage. The list goes on and on.

 

I will say that if you're a very selfish person, don't get married. It's not for you.

[Lizzie60]

I think that getting married is a waste of money and everything.. why not common-law.. but that's not the point.. I just don't believe in marriage except for the pension plan.. I think the 'vows' are BS...but that's just me.

 

thing is.. getting married in your 20s is waaaayyy too young.. I say that... before you finish your studies, get your career going.. settled down.. etc.. it's not a good idea to get married..

 

and if you want kids.. before a woman hits her 30s it's NOT a good idea.. because most likely she will end up being a single mother before she even reaches her 30th bd..

[Trialbyfire]

No surprise Lizzie, that you would believe marriage vows are crap. I believe in the given word and maintained it throughout my marriage. I also believe in my given word as a way to live my life in general. If your word isn't good, what have you to offer? Nothing.

[Woggle]

Marriage these days is pretty much crap with a fewexceptions and my marriage is one of those exceptions.

[KismetGirl]

No surprise Lizzie, that you would believe marriage vows are crap. I believe in the given word and maintained it throughout my marriage. I also believe in my given word as a way to live my life in general. If your word isn't good, what have you to offer? Nothing.

 

 

Most people who marry intend to keep their word, but it's not always easy to stay married just because you promised you would.

 

Im sure there have been times in many good people's lives that they made a promise they couldn't keep. It's only human, don't be so harsh and judgemental. One day you might come upon a situation where you don't want to keep your promise and I wouldn't fault you for it without knowing your situation in full detail, and you should do the same. Forgiveness is just as important as "keeping your word".

 

unfortunately, marriage is not one of those things any sane human being can make a promise on and REALLy know how they'll feel in 20 years. It's a long term promise, and all long term promises are gambles in one way or another.

 

Some are luckier than others and their resolve to keep it up doesn't have to be as strong as some others. Good luck for you.

 

People rush into things, especially like marriage, with good intentions and good hearts. To say everyone who messes up or breaks their vows is immoral or a bad person with no sense of keeping promises is a broad and judgemental stance, at best.

 

I've kept my word on most things Ive promised people, I go out of my way to help people, to do what I can for them, but Im only human and sometimes I fall. Just because your marriage has survived, doesn't mean other people's should or could. your spouse could have cheated on you once, twice, ten times, or never, and you mgiht never have known about it. That would by your definintion make your marriage a sham, but you'd have never known about it. So, just as we know nothing about you or your spouse, you don't know what other people go through in their marriages.

[fral945]

The failure of marriage is if you go into it with this kind of attitude. Marriage is best left for people who do believe in it. People who don't will only become another statistic.

 

Attitude is BS. You live in an idealistic fantasy land, I live in reality. The reality is by today's standards most people shouldn't get married because the chances of failure are greater than the chances of success. If some of the expectations were removed from marriage (love, sexual gratification, romance, etc) then there might be more chance for success. But that will never happen.

 

TBF, answer me two questions:

 

1) What do you expect from a possible marriage partner?

2) Do you really believe expectations haven't increased for most people considering marriage?

[Trialbyfire]

Most people who marry intend to keep their word, but it's not always easy to stay married just because you promised you would.

 

Im sure there have been times in many good people's lives that they made a promise they couldn't keep. It's only human, don't be so harsh and judgemental. One day you might come upon a situation where you don't want to keep your promise and I wouldn't fault you for it without knowing your situation in full detail, and you should do the same. Forgiveness is just as important as "keeping your word".

 

unfortunately, marriage is not one of those things any sane human being can make a promise on and REALLy know how they'll feel in 20 years. It's a long term promise, and all long term promises are gambles in one way or another.

 

Some are luckier than others and their resolve to keep it up doesn't have to be as strong as some others. Good luck for you.

 

People rush into things, especially like marriage, with good intentions and good hearts. To say everyone who messes up or breaks their vows is immoral or a bad person with no sense of keeping promises is a broad and judgemental stance, at best.

 

I've kept my word on most things Ive promised people, I go out of my way to help people, to do what I can for them, but Im only human and sometimes I fall. Just because your marriage has survived, doesn't mean other people's should or could. your spouse could have cheated on you once, twice, ten times, or never, and you mgiht never have known about it. That would by your definintion make your marriage a sham, but you'd have never known about it. So, just as we know nothing about you or your spouse, you don't know what other people go through in their marriages.

You're encompassing a larger picture into one small action of staying married. You need to review the vows. If certain vows aren't kept, especially infidelity, they are grounds for the cessation of the marriage. He broke his vow, I broke the marriage. A year and a half after divorce, he's still trying to get me back. Live and learn darling but you're out.

 

When I give my word, I keep it unless I have a direct discussion with the person involved. If you can't keep your word, that's your choice in life. When someone breaks their given word to me, they're out of my life. This is my choice.

 

Attitude is BS. You live in an idealistic fantasy land, I live in reality. The reality is by today's standards most people shouldn't get married because the chances of failure are greater than the chances of success. If some of the expectations were removed from marriage (love, sexual gratification, romance, etc) then there might be more chance for success. But that will never happen.

 

TBF, answer me two questions:

 

1) What do you expect from a possible marriage partner?

2) Do you really believe expectations haven't increased for most people considering marriage?

Attitude is everything. If you go into a marriage with sunshine and lollipops or a major black cloud hanging over you, your marriage WILL FAIL.

 

1) I expect fidelity, love, respect and trust.

2) Not at all. Expectations haven't increased. People are just not willing to put up with crap like infidelity, which they shouldn't need to.

[angie2443]

2) Not at all. Expectations haven't increased. People are just not willing to put up with crap like infidelity, which they shouldn't need to.

 

Also, back in the day, it was very hard for a woman to leave a marriage. It was excepted (on some level) if a man was abusive or had other women. If the woman left, she might be ostrisized from her family and the rest of society. She would have found it almost impossible to support herself or children if she had any because, women just didn't work back then. In this sense, things have changed for the better.

[Trialbyfire]

Also, back in the day, it was very hard for a woman to leave a marriage. It was excepted (on some level) if a man was abusive or had other women. If the woman left, she might be ostrisized from her family and the rest of society. She would have found it almost impossible to support herself or children if she had any because, women just didn't work back then. In this sense, things have changed for the better.

There's that, although both my mother and surviving grandmother both said point blank that they would have left if any of this had occurred. They're very strong women so I don't doubt they would have.

 

Even back in the day, asserting strong boundaries made a difference. They were both smart in that they found men who were worth it. Now it's my turn to be smart and find someone who's capable of the same. I made a mistake in judgement that won't happen again.

[Curmudgeon]

To say that we don't believe in 'till death do us part' is not being judgemental.. ... it's just stating the facts.. or the stats..

 

We already are in disposable relationships.. and it's not going to get better.. we're not even 'there' yet.

 

I can't argue with either the facts or the stats. How could I after a 25 year marriage that ultimately failed? However, I'm not the one who left. I believed strongly in the vows I took back in 1969 and I did my level best (the best I could given who and what I was at the time) to achieve reconciliation. Obviously it wasn't good enough and at this juncture, given what's occurred since, I have to admit I'm glad. At the time, however, it was devastating.

 

There are many who wouldn't put up with my wife because she's bipolar and that can decidedly be challenging to live with. But once again, vows trump convenience and we're about to embark on a very secure and enjoyable retirement beginning December 30. We love each other dearly and have survived her late 40s and 50s and my 50s and early 60s together and we both take comfort in the prospect of growing old together, whenever that starts!

 

None of us can encapsulate life for the rest of us and I think our story proves that. While "society" may accept and minimize the concept of marriage and accept reality of divorce, that doesn't typify all of us by any means. In fact, I feel a bit sorry for those whose attitude towards them is so cavalier. They don't know what they're missing.

[fral945]

Attitude is everything. If you go into a marriage with sunshine and lollipops or a major black cloud hanging over you, your marriage WILL FAIL.

 

No, it's a small part. Attitude will never trump actions. Let's be honest.

 

1) I expect fidelity, love, respect and trust.

 

Wow, that's all? If that was the case, there are loads of men around with those qualities. Hell, even I would qualify.

 

What about financial stability, intelligence, romance, career-minded, etc? You of all people I would think expect more.

 

2) Not at all. Expectations haven't increased. People are just not willing to put up with crap like infidelity, which they shouldn't need to.

 

Really? So you don't think what you expect out of a marriage partner is more than your mother or grandmother did?

 

I'll admit mine are higher than my parents. Practically speaking, they should be (by today's standards of course), otherwise you're not preparing yourself properly.

[Curmudgeon]

It's the difference between a conversation and a confrontation. My wife and I have the former and reject the latter. We may not always agree but we don't have to. We are both capable of agreeing to disagree and peace reigns!

 

The alternative is usually ego driven and someone has to win. We both reject that as well.

[Trialbyfire]

No, it's a small part. Attitude will never trump actions. Let's be honest.

While attitude isn't guaranteed to equate to actions, more often than not, it will translate. You self-prophesize doom and gloom and it will happen.

 

Wow, that's all? If that was the case, there are loads of men around with those qualities. Hell, even I would qualify.

 

What about financial stability, intelligence, romance, career-minded, etc? You of all people I would think expect more.

We're discussing marriage, not the precursor to mate selection.

 

Really? So you don't think what you expect out of a marriage partner is more than your mother or grandmother did?

 

I'll admit mine are higher than my parents. Practically speaking, they should be (by today's standards of course), otherwise you're not preparing yourself properly.

Nope. My standards are lower than my mother or grandmother. You've never met these two women but if you did, it would be easy to understand. They absolutely kick ass.

[Sks]

.............. Too many people get married on a whim and divorce on a whim as well, there is no honor or sacrifice, only self interest. No one is looking for the greater good, the long-term, no one seems to be willing to sacrifice themselves for something more important.

 

The world is not about immediate pleasure, at least not to me. It does not take much to be happy if you don't have all the expectations.

 

Maybe I just have a greater sense of responsibility...........

[marlena]

I think, like one poster said, that marriage is a trap, one that no one tells you about when you are young and naive. The numbers and stats prove it. A good marriage, a satisfying one for both partners, is the rare exception and not the rule. Especially in today's world of dispensable relationships as another poster mentioned. And it will get worse.

 

The Internet has made it very easy to flit form one relationship to another in record time. That, combined with the sex being given away freely, no one wants to work on a relationship anymore. No one wants to make the time or the effort. They much prefer to think ...NEXT!!! It used to be you had to get married to have an active sex life. Not true anymore. Also, divorce is no longer a social taboo as it once used to be. Previous generations would not even consider it as it was tantamount to social ostracism. They preferred to live their days out in misery rather than go down that road.

 

The times have changed and this is the new reality. Nothing one can do about it.

[popey]

Really? So you don't think what you expect out of a marriage partner is more than your mother or grandmother did?

 

I'll admit mine are higher than my parents. Practically speaking, they should be (by today's standards of course), otherwise you're not preparing yourself properly.

 

While for the most part, I share TBF's point of view, I definitely think expectations have increased. This is progress, and nothing new. In the early middle ages; one didn't even expect to choose her/his own partner. Concubines, multiple wives and use of prostitutes were totally accepted for those w/ fiancial means. Women were property etc... you get it.

 

We could then go through the history and how, for the most part, there was a steady move toward greater expectations of the individuals with respects to their own marriage.

 

As for the OP, and the guy not feeling in love anymore. I'm sure this is reality for many; but I wonder how much of it is simply a matter of being unable to understand deeper emotions of connectedness. Without that capacity, I would think it would be hard to still feel excitement and love for your partner when the "newness" is gone maybe?

[Curmudgeon]

Ha.. you're already a statistic.. no matter what your attitude is.. there is no hope these days and age, for a long term relationship/marriage .. whatever.. nothing even close to what our grandparents lived.. because in those years.. women could not leave.. now they do.. they don't take crap anymore.. and it's this is not just the point.. the point is.. no one can love the same person forever.. it just doesn't happen.

 

And once again you're wrong and your attitude is colored by your perceptions and occupation which you arrogantly believe are the be-all and end-all about relationships.

 

Since you don't believe in marriage, Lizzie, why is it that you persist on posting your singular opinions on a marriage-based board? Are you so insecure in your inability to enter into and maintain committed relationships that you have to proselytize for your point of view?

 

I hate to point this out to you, Lizzie, but it's likely that those of us who believe in marriage and work hard to maintain it may not be successful but it doesn't prevent us from trying again. It's well worth the effort when it works and when it doesn't, hopefully we learn from our mistakes.

 

In the end, most of us will have someone to grow old and comfortable with and there are certainly worse things in life.