n9688m Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Read the entire post. You are changing the end-game. Self-growth is an entirely different end-game than reconciliation. Furthermore, I submit that without honest cooperation of the cheating spouse, it is simply not possible to determine the role of the cheated-upon spouse.
n9688m Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 You are focusing end game. Do not focus on how to skin the cat, until you have caught the cat. If the cat is feral then there is no point in catching it because it cannot be domesticated.
TrustInYourself Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 You are changing the end-game. Self-growth is an entirely different end-game than reconciliation. Furthermore, I submit that without honest cooperation of the cheating spouse, it is simply not possible to determine the role of the cheated-upon spouse. You determine your role since you are the cheated-upon. Your wife doesn't decide your role. As far as the feral cat comment, all cats can be tamed if you have sweet milk and a gentle heart. Then again, there are a few man eaters out there. Sigmund from Sigmund-Roy can attest!
n9688m Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 You determine your role since you are the cheated-upon. Your wife doesn't decide your role. By "role" I mean how I participated in the failure of the marriage. I submit that there is no way I can determine that role unless my STBXW honestly participates in counseling. I think IC for the purpose of determining my role in the failure of my marriage is nonsense. As far as the feral cat comment, all cats can be tamed if you have sweet milk and a gentle heart. Let's suppose my current theory is correct in that my wife was never truly romantically attracted to me, i.e. there was not enough physical chemistry but instead she married me for stability, money, children, and social acceptability and she basically pretended to be romantically happy all these years. I suspect I am not unique in this situation. If true, then there is no point in "taming" her. Indeed, the question is not why we are gettting divorced; rather, the question is why did we get married in the first place. More accurately, my question for counseling would not be my role in why we are getting divorced but again my role in why did we get married in the first place. I further theorize that this explains a lot of "sudden" walkaway wife situations. These wives do not talk about the issues during the marriage and do not seek marriage counseling early on because they know that fundamentally there is simply nothing to fix.
Al_Bundy Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Your wife cheats. So what. Thats it? Someone cheats and is just "so what?" Its no big deal?
Al_Bundy Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 You have control over every action and reaction that occurs in a relationship. Your 50% affects your partner's 50%. Every action/reaction you create, make, take causes an equal and equivalent action from your partner. So by her cheating, what would be the acceptable "equivalent action" from him? First you insinuate that he has no right to be "holier than thou", then you come up with this little snippet. So is he not entitled to an equivalent reaction? The equivalent reaction is to cheat back, if your logic holds. You bitch about her moving out, she gets angry. You stop bitching. You thank her for the oppurtunity to learn more about yourself and your feelings about the relationship. LOL, thank her for cheating? Cuz thats what led to it in the first place.
Al_Bundy Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 It sounds to me like what you are describing is a unilateral effort by the cheated-upon spouse to change himself to please the cheating spouse. Exactly. The cheater learned a valuable lesson, cheat and you can get your BS to act as you want.
TrustInYourself Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 By "role" I mean how I participated in the failure of the marriage. I submit that there is no way I can determine that role unless my STBXW honestly participates in counseling. I think IC for the purpose of determining my role in the failure of my marriage is nonsense. Let's suppose my current theory is correct in that my wife was never truly romantically attracted to me, i.e. there was not enough physical chemistry but instead she married me for stability, money, children, and social acceptability and she basically pretended to be romantically happy all these years. I suspect I am not unique in this situation. If true, then there is no point in "taming" her. Indeed, the question is not why we are gettting divorced; rather, the question is why did we get married in the first place. More accurately, my question for counseling would not be my role in why we are getting divorced but again my role in why did we get married in the first place. I further theorize that this explains a lot of "sudden" walkaway wife situations. These wives do not talk about the issues during the marriage and do not seek marriage counseling early on because they know that fundamentally there is simply nothing to fix. Hmm, my wife told me that she was never attracted to me. She told me she didn't know if she married me for the right reasons. She told me our relationship was never good. This is all situational recollection. After I contributed unilaterally, my wife came around. I wasn't pining for her. I was living my life. I ended my addiction. I changed my behaviors for my own sake. I changed, not my wife and things started changing. She started feeling differently. My wife is not someone that needs a man for validation. She's independent, reliable, trust worthy. That's not to say she wasn't looking. She was looking at every man she saw and feeling "attraction". What can you take from my story that applies to you. I don't know. I don't know the whole story and it sounds like you don't know either. That's probably an issue for someone who, from reading your posts, wants to understand. Who knows your situation better than you and your wife. It says a lot that you still don't understand her motivation and have moved on. What do you see from my statements? Negativity or positivity? Motivation or demotivation? What is your life perspective? Are you going to flourish or wither?
Al_Bundy Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 If the cat is feral then there is no point in catching it because it cannot be domesticated. Oh, now THAT was good!!
TrustInYourself Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 So by her cheating, what would be the acceptable "equivalent action" from him? First you insinuate that he has no right to be "holier than thou", then you come up with this little snippet. So is he not entitled to an equivalent reaction? The equivalent reaction is to cheat back, if your logic holds. LOL, thank her for cheating? Cuz thats what led to it in the first place. He's entitled to do whatever he wants. And yes thank her for cheating. Why would you want to be with a cheater? She did you a favor by leaving.
TrustInYourself Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Exactly. The cheater learned a valuable lesson, cheat and you can get your BS to act as you want. It's up to you to act however you want to. Why would your spouse be reason to validate any of your negatvity?or actions? Angry much?
n9688m Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 What do you see from my statements? Negativity or positivity? Motivation or demotivation? What is your life perspective? Are you going to flourish or wither? There is no question I have to move on. There is also no question that to extent there is "revenge" it is best achieved by living a good life. What is my life perspective? Well in the 6 months since this all began I am spending almost half-time with my kids and maintaining a really strong relationship with them; I am exercising regularly and lost almost 50 pounds and am getting lots of positive feedback in that regard; I started some new business ventures and reprioritized some other things so that I will likely earn more alone now than my STBXW and I used to earn together; I have met some really nice women age 25-45 though I have not yet found "the one"; and I briefly attended IC which was helpful in working through some constructive strategies regarding anger and grieving. I guess that is pretty good for a start. I am convinced life will go on for me, and I want to make the best of it for my kids. Would I also like to figure out why this all happened? You bet - but even in IC that seems futile without participation by my STBXW and she just shuts down anytime I bring up the topic - so I gave up on that a couple months ago. Would I like to wake up tomorrow and find out this was all a dream or all caused by some easily-treatable hormonal imbalance in my STBXW? You bet - but barring that, I can't imagine for the life of me how she could ever apologize for all the hurt and deceit she has been responsible for. So I have to just live for tomorrow and live for my kids.
n9688m Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Why would your spouse be reason to validate any of your negatvity?or actions? Angry much? Because he is human. I would go further and argue that for someone to be a victim of cheating and not get angry would be unhealthy and abnormal from a mental health perspective.
TrustInYourself Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Because he is human. I would go further and argue that for someone to be a victim of cheating and not get angry would be unhealthy and abnormal from a mental health perspective. Yeah, true that. I was pretty pissed too. In retrospect, anger got me nowhere except more depressed. I made the decision to do as you said and live life. Thanks for sharing. I figure my perspective isn't completely correct either, but it's a perspective. Too many people go through life playing the part of the victim. You're not a victim, so stop crying and start living.
Al_Bundy Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 He's entitled to do whatever he wants. And yes thank her for cheating. Why would you want to be with a cheater? She did you a favor by leaving. You aren't talking about him or her leaving, you are talking about him being thankful that a cheater made him act in a certain way so he can work on the R. And if you are talking about her doing me a favor, yes, she did me a favor. But she wanted to stay in the M. I thought otherwise.
Al_Bundy Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 It's up to you to act however you want to. Why would your spouse be reason to validate any of your negatvity?or actions? Angry much? Angry? No, just annoyed that somone would suggest to this guy that he be a spineless lapdog.
Al_Bundy Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 You're not a victim, so stop crying and start living. No, he IS a victim now. He just needs to take steps to not be one from here on out.
n9688m Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 Too many people go through life playing the part of the victim. You're not a victim, so stop crying and start living. My kids are indeed victims - that is indisputable. That is the reason I can never forgive her actions.
Al_Bundy Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 My kids are indeed victims - that is indisputable. That is the reason I can never forgive her actions. I agree. My oldest son cries to me all the time when its time for our weekends to be over. he doesn't want to stay with her. She doesn't play with him, is more interested in her time with her bf, and doesn't keep their home clean. Of course he isn't old enough to make his own decision yet. So I discussed this with her. She won't have any part of giving me custody. She doesn't care about what they want, all she cares about is the child support. I even told her that she wouldn't have to pay me a dime in support and I'd pay ALL their expenses and she could have the visitation I get. Nope, won't have any part of it. She wants the money, not their happiness.
n9688m Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 She won't have any part of giving me custody. Huh? She can't "give" you custody; you're a parent too. Why not go to court and ask for equally shared custody? I read a lot about how family courts are very biased against fathers. That may be true but so far at least that has not been my experience. It seems to me that in many (perhaps most) custody cases there are substantial red-flags against the fathers, including a history of physical abuse, drugs/alcohol, an inflexible job schedule, or a clear past history of fatherly non-involvement with the kids. If these are not present and you have the time and interest for equally shared custody, you very well might get it. Why not try?
Al_Bundy Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 Huh? She can't "give" you custody; you're a parent too. Why not go to court and ask for equally shared custody? Because if I get equal time with them, then I am not entitled to pay support. She wants the money, so she wouldn't dream of giving me equal time. I read a lot about how family courts are very biased against fathers. They are, BELIEVE ME!! That may be true but so far at least that has not been my experience. It seems to me that in many (perhaps most) custody cases there are substantial red-flags against the fathers, including a history of physical abuse, drugs/alcohol, an inflexible job schedule, or a clear past history of fatherly non-involvement with the kids. If these are not present and you have the time and interest for equally shared custody, you very well might get it. Why not try? Already did, and it doesn't work that way. If the woman wants to be the custodial parent, then she calls the shots. And as is the case with my xW, like I said, she wants the money, so she wouldn't dream of letting me have equal time. She even moved in with a cokehead. And even THAT wasn't enough to go on. I had to have proof they were doing it in the house. So even if they did it elsewhere, but left it out of the house, I had no grounds. And if I called CPS, and they went in and found nothing, guess what happens the next time I turn them in? Crying wolf. Trust me, I have the most ruthless lawyer there ever was, and he said I'm fighting a losing battle there.
n9688m Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 She wants the money, so she wouldn't dream of giving me equal time. I have no interest in what "she" wants; I am only interested in what you want for your kids. Already did, and it doesn't work that way. If the woman wants to be the custodial parent, then she calls the shots. My suggestion was for you to have equally shared custody, not sole custody. Do you meet these criteria? * Live near your ex * No history of violence or police calls to your home * No history of child abuse or neglect * No history of drug/alcohol abuse * Flexible enough work schedule to be an involved dad * History of involvement with your kids so she wouldn't dream of letting me have equal time This is about what you want - stop thinking about what she wants. What she wants is irrelevant as long as you meet the above criteria. She even moved in with a cokehead. And even THAT wasn't enough to go on. I had to have proof they were doing it in the house. I don't want to know why your ex is a bad parent. I want to know why you are a good parent. Trust me, I have the most ruthless lawyer there ever was, and he said I'm fighting a losing battle there. Was he trying to tear your ex down or build you up? Tearing your ex down just shows why you cannot get along as co-parents. Building up both of you as competent parents could be a more effective strategy.
pelicanpreacher Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 Because if I get equal time with them, then I am not entitled to pay support. She wants the money, so she wouldn't dream of giving me equal time. They are, BELIEVE ME!! Already did, and it doesn't work that way. If the woman wants to be the custodial parent, then she calls the shots. And as is the case with my xW, like I said, she wants the money, so she wouldn't dream of letting me have equal time. She even moved in with a cokehead. And even THAT wasn't enough to go on. I had to have proof they were doing it in the house. So even if they did it elsewhere, but left it out of the house, I had no grounds. And if I called CPS, and they went in and found nothing, guess what happens the next time I turn them in? Crying wolf. Trust me, I have the most ruthless lawyer there ever was, and he said I'm fighting a losing battle there. If I were you I would speak to your lawyer to find out what age the courts in your state would allow a minor to make the decision of who they'd prefer to live with or be fully emancipated. If the opportunity exists for either option then your strategy would be to play the spider and wait on the day time hits your web! In the meantime, keep tabs on the "night time" activities of your wife. Perhaps provide your child with a cell phone so they can advise you of when she leaves them with a babysitter and prepare to surveille her activities from afar. If you've been fortunate enough to witness illicit activity like driving while under the influence then you can phone the authorities with her license plate, location, and any erratic behavior she's exhibiting and let them deal with it from there. If your ex is as irresponsible as you claim then, being a creature of habit, she is bound to make a mistake you can capitalize upon. With a serious charge on her police record you can increase your odds of getting sole or at least equal custody of your children but, if not, then continue playing the waiting game for, barring any tragedies that might occur to your children while on her watch, time is on your side! My apologies for the t/j.
pelicanpreacher Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 To the original OP I fully support analyzing the reflection in one's mind's eye to critically assess the man in the mirror. No-one is perfect and minor flaws in one's character held check prior to marriage may have grown to such an extent that they have changed who you once were over the subtle passage of time. People gain too much weight, start drinking too much, become too complacent, become too controlling, become too stressed and quick to anger, become too stuck in their ways to consider new experiences, or become so lost in the circumstances of their day to day drama that they forget that they have a partner who is watching it, living it, and may have started to grow resentful to it! It is in these areas that I think HITM and TIY have addressed to change themselves from within to improve and make better partners in their relationships. With change resulting from inner growth some people are better able to minimize bad habits while accentuating those positive features that makes one attractive to begin with. If one remains mindful of oneself at all times in these areas with a zen for continuous positive personal growth then the passage of time should't dull the attractiveness of one's being and should hopefully minimize the possibility infidelity ever becomes an issue in the future. Though infidelity is often only a symptom of deeper problems in a relationship, for most, it is a dealbreaker that tends to kill all inclination for self growth within the betrayed. It is at this juncture that a decision must be made as to whether or not the relationship should be terminated or rebuilt. If the choice is to rebuild then, as HITM, TIY, and others have done before them, the first hard step begins by looking at the man in the mirror by relating to the WS on what they truthfully see!
Al_Bundy Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 I have no interest in what "she" wants; I am only interested in what you want for your kids. What I want, and what is best for the kids is of no concern to socialist Illinois courts/judges. My suggestion was for you to have equally shared custody, not sole custody. Again, it doesn't matter. If she doesn't want it to happen, it aint gonna happen because then she wouldn't be entitled to money. Do you meet these criteria? * Live near your ex * No history of violence or police calls to your home * No history of child abuse or neglect * No history of drug/alcohol abuse * Flexible enough work schedule to be an involved dad * History of involvement with your kids Yes Nope Nope Nope - don't even drink. Can't stand the taste(I know, odd for someone that likes Al Bundy) Yes Yes But that criteria means nothing. Fathers get $%#$% This is about what you want - stop thinking about what she wants. What she wants is irrelevant as long as you meet the above criteria. Wrong again. What she wants is what she'll get. The courts will give her what she wants, and ignore what is best for the kids as long as she isn't proven to be an unfit mother. She can even leave the state with my kids and I'd have no say in the matter. I don't want to know why your ex is a bad parent. I want to know why you are a good parent. Because I love my children and want them to have a good life. I know that when they are with me, they are well taken care of, loved, and have the attention of their father. When not with me I worry.
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