Career Women......

[Siciliana]

It's not terrible. However, there is a huge difference in how you treat something that you need vs. how you treat something that you want. If I need a car, I will put in the $ and work to make sure it runs. If I want a car, then I don't always have to put in that effort, because it doesnt matter if it stops working... I didn't need it.

 

I see this totally different. I see a woman "needing" a man as using him to meet her ends. Whereas, a woman who WANTS a man will treat him better because she wants him there. And, just because we don't need you financially to provide, we do need emotional support, communication, compassion, consideration, respect, love, friendship, and much much more. And, we would like to find these qualities in a masculine, straight male who still knows how to wrench on a car and kill the bugs and mow the lawn and fix the toilet.

 

Don't think that we don't need you for other things. There is something that can only be found in a man that a woman desires. There has to be a gentle blend of the masculine male who is confident enough to allow room in his life for an independent woman. Otherwise, we end up with push-overs and that is no fun....

 

Where can I find one? Are there any men like that out there??

[Untouchable_Fire]

I didn't become interested in becoming an accountant until I had my daughter. Children are an amazing motivator to become the best you can be... for them. I was doing it for the greater good of the whole. I wanted my Ex to not have to work as hard, too. I wanted to be able to earn enough money so that he could get a job doing something that he LIKED, instead of working a good paying job that he hated.

 

Are you sure the only reason you began a career was to provide more money for your daughter?

 

Do you understand why your ex was upset about it?

 

I will say, though, that people who have no ambition have always been a turn-off to me, even when I wanted to be a house-wife for the rest of enternity. I have no idea how people can just....be.... and not strive for some sort of personal growth. It doesn't always have to be about career and education... but, I just don't get these people who come home from work and veg-out infront of the TV watching stuff that just numbs the mind. There is a vast world of many things that each of us has yet to explore and encounter. I cannot die knowing that I wasted my life watching ESPN and the LifeTime Channel when I could have done something to expand my knowledge, understanding and experience within the world around me.

 

You don't understand them for the same reason you let a career goal($$$) end your marriage. Honestly I hope there were lots of things that sucked besides this one issue, because if that is the only reason you divorced... that's sad.

 

I've never seen someone buy thier child real happiness.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I see this totally different. I see a woman "needing" a man as using him to meet her ends. Whereas, a woman who WANTS a man will treat him better because she wants him there. And, just because we don't need you financially to provide, we do need emotional support, communication, compassion, consideration, respect, love, friendship, and much much more. And, we would like to find these qualities in a masculine, straight male who still knows how to wrench on a car and kill the bugs and mow the lawn and fix the toilet.quote]

 

I would agree with you on this. However in my experience it is a very different equation when we are talking about the more Type A, career oriented women.

 

Want is ephemeral, as substantial as the wind. One day you want an emotionally supportive man, another day you want a man who is fun. Needs are stones, very solid and tangible. Less subject to whims and fancies.

 

There are plenty of men who have the traits you desire. You just wont see them all at once.

[Siciliana]

Are you sure the only reason you began a career was to provide more money for your daughter?

 

Do you understand why your ex was upset about it?

 

 

 

You don't understand them for the same reason you let a career goal($$$) end your marriage. Honestly I hope there were lots of things that sucked besides this one issue, because if that is the only reason you divorced... that's sad.

 

I've never seen someone buy thier child real happiness.

 

I do not understand what he was upset about because he failed miserably at communication and would never talk to me about it. He just said he didn't like it and that was it. I would not throw a whole marriage and the future of a child out the window over one fight about me going to school.

 

Me going to school was the beginning of the end. It was all down hill from there. And, no, it was not the only reason we divorced, there was much more. But, I can cite it as a source of contention between us.

 

 

I would never try to buy my child happiness. I think the time I spend with her playing with Play-do, or games, watching movies, or coloring is more fulfilling for her and I than what my bank account holds. What I am trying to give her is a stable future, and set an example of how to succeed in life.

[Siciliana]

I would agree with you on this. However in my experience it is a very different equation when we are talking about the more Type A, career oriented women.

 

Want is ephemeral, as substantial as the wind. One day you want an emotionally supportive man, another day you want a man who is fun. Needs are stones, very solid and tangible. Less subject to whims and fancies.

 

There are plenty of men who have the traits you desire. You just wont see them all at once.

 

I can see what you are saying about how some peoples' wants change without notice. And, I can see how would might relate that to the Type A personality.

 

However, there are some of us out there, who are Type A, and have a career, but still want AND need a man for total happiness. I am getting by here in this life of mine but it is a struggle living in this house without a man to help me do the things that only men are capable of doing.

 

I just have a hard time rationalizing the idea of knowing someone is with you based ONLY on need.... That to me would be torture to know that my partner was with me only because I provided a roof, food, clothes, etc. I want my partner to be with me because he loves me, and enjoys my company. I want him to miss me when I am gone and be happy when I come home. I want him to want to talk with me at the end of the day and snuggle in bed when the day is thorugh. I don't want him there for any other reason.

[norajane]

I have a near genetic compulsion to provide. I think many of us men suffer from that... must have helped us survive back in the day.

 

Perhaps that is something to consider when your choosing how you want a man to be in your life.

 

I'd be happy to be with a man who would provide. Why wouldn't I be?

 

My being able to provide for myself doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate a man being a provider.

 

It's not terrible. However, there is a huge difference in how you treat something that you need vs. how you treat something that you want. If I need a car, I will put in the $ and work to make sure it runs. If I want a car, then I don't always have to put in that effort, because it doesnt matter if it stops working... I didn't need it.

 

I used to date a guy who was really into classic Maseratis. He lovingly hand washed his car all the time, and he was sensitive to every breath and sigh of the engine, and he was well acquainted with all its lovely curves and panels, and he thrilled at its acceleration and speed...

 

He drove some kind of SUV as his every day car. He lived in the mountains, so the SUV was a necessity, a need. He took care of maintenance on it, but it didn't get nearly the kind of attention, nor did it inspire the kind of desire and joy that his Maserati did.

 

When I think of men and need vs want, that's how I see it.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I do not understand what he was upset about because he failed miserably at communication and would never talk to me about it. He just said he didn't like it and that was it. I would not throw a whole marriage and the future of a child out the window over one fight about me going to school.

 

It's complicated, but suffice it to say that men tend to embrace our gender role in a way that women in the U.S. dont.

 

By stepping into his gender role, it's tantamount to saying he isn't doing a good job, and by actually doing a better at it.... that hurts more than I can really explain.

 

This is just an assumption.

 

Me going to school was the beginning of the end. It was all down hill from there. And, no, it was not the only reason we divorced, there was much more. But, I can cite it as a source of contention between us.

 

I was guessing that it was just the straw that broke the camel or some such. Either way I suspect you did the right thing.

 

I would never try to buy my child happiness. I think the time I spend with her playing with Play-do, or games, watching movies, or coloring is more fulfilling for her and I than what my bank account holds. What I am trying to give her is a stable future, and set an example of how to succeed in life.

 

Be wary. As a child I saw my mom on nights and weekends. It was not an ideal situation and in many ways I felt abandoned. Looking back I probably had it better than most, though I had some really bad babysitters.

 

Success in life is often not so much about getting what you want, but about wanting what you've got. Yes, that's cliche, but very true.

 

Also, I know you already know this... but make sure Dad is in the picture in a big way. I can't believe how many women are just permanently broken inside because of that.

[norajane]

Want is ephemeral, as substantial as the wind. One day you want an emotionally supportive man, another day you want a man who is fun. Needs are stones, very solid and tangible. Less subject to whims and fancies.

 

But if the only reason I'm staying with someone is because I can't afford to live on my own, doesn't that make the man feel used for his money? If a woman's ephemeral wants change and she no longer wants to be with you but stays because she needs you for what you provide, doesn't it feel kinda empty to have her?

[Untouchable_Fire]

I used to date a guy who was really into classic Maseratis. He lovingly hand washed his car all the time, and he was sensitive to every breath and sigh of the engine, and he was well acquainted with all its lovely curves and panels, and he thrilled at its acceleration and speed...

He drove some kind of SUV as his every day car. He lived in the mountains, so the SUV was a necessity, a need. He took care of maintenance on it, but it didn't get nearly the kind of attention, nor did it inspire the kind of desire and joy that his Maserati did.

When I think of men and need vs want, that's how I see it.

 

Yes, but when times get tough... it will be the Maseratis that gets sold not the SUV. That's the point, thats the difference. I'm not interested in being a prize handbag.

 

By the way... that was very poetic!

 

It seems that at the heart of the matter is fiscal control. I think if you marry someone that you can't trust to have your best interests at heart... perhaps you made a poor choice. At the same time, I agree that it is best to hedge your bets because life is unpredictable. We men typically do not get upset because our women work or have careers. It's when those careers prove more important than us we get upset. I think that is universal.

[Untouchable_Fire]

But if the only reason I'm staying with someone is because I can't afford to live on my own, doesn't that make the man feel used for his money? If a woman's ephemeral wants change and she no longer wants to be with you but stays because she needs you for what you provide, doesn't it feel kinda empty to have her?

 

Ah, you assume that when a want goes away it never returns? That is not so. Time and effort can bring that back, provided you have both.

 

Needs come in more forms than just money. If all you need from a man is money then your better off without them. If you just want a man... get the divorce papers prepared in advance. The first storm may sink that ship.

 

Now, if a woman is with me just because I have money... I'm not going to accept that situation. Will I feel used? No I wont. However, that's just a personal thing because of my experiences. Ive been in relationships where I made less than her. I still paid all the bills, and just watched her shoe closet grow.

[Woggle]

I can understand why this thread touched some nerves but if a man wants a happy marriage that lasts he needs to take some percautions before he ties the knot. Marrying an independent career woman is almost a surefire way to make sure that you head for divorce court.

[dannydrifter]

And, just because we don't need you financially to provide, we do need emotional support, communication, compassion, consideration, respect, love, friendship, and much much more. And, we would like to find these qualities in a masculine, straight male who still knows how to wrench on a car and kill the bugs and mow the lawn and fix the toilet.

 

Don't think that we don't need you for other things. There is something that can only be found in a man that a woman desires. There has to be a gentle blend of the masculine male who is confident enough to allow room in his life for an independent woman. Otherwise, we end up with push-overs and that is no fun....

 

Where can I find one? Are there any men like that out there??

 

There are men like this. But they exist only in DC comics, on the planet Krypton. Wow, you certainly have a lot of criteria! And what qualities would you think this superman would expect in a woman?

[Dominique]

No serious career, huh?

 

A long-term relationship is driven by more than sunshine and lollipops.

 

 

I'm a full-time professor of History and Philosophy at a highly respected American university, my dear.

 

Lots more going on than sunshine and lollipops--but I enjoy those too.

 

No need to be jaded over there,

 

So again, do lighten up....

 

DOM

[Dominique]

.. I am talking about high tech robot husbands. Someone has GOT to come up with a suitable version sooner or later. Maybe we are just projecting our needs towards an ideal which doesnt really exist? Even the happiest married women do not deny that really their husbands are a burden in many respects and having a career is in many ways more satisfying than their marraige? Marraige really is a security blanket for raising children is it not? Men know this deep down and so are always trying to 'possess' us in one way or another..

 

.. Just playing devils advocate.

 

....that there are women who get to this point.

 

If you want "idealism" then be an ideal yourself. I love it how women are constantly talking about men-this men-that what a burden they are, how they don't meet "needs"....I feel sorry for men, by and large. It is women who still for the most part have not found their footing, and because they are confused, they blame "men!" and "society!" for their problems and not themselves.

 

Marriage is not a security blanket for anything. Security comes through industry (material security) and self confidence (emotional security). Marriage is about pride and respect between two people in love who wish to committ to each other and whatever difficulties it presents it is still a very honorable goal and one to keep. No I am not married--have been proposed to more than once--but there are personal reasons for this having mainly to do with a lot of moving and world travel early in my career. I now feel "ready" and am looking forward to the adventure

 

I'll take a flesh and blood brilliant handsome man with his problems, doubts and insecurities any day than your high-end robot. Ick.

 

PS Why is it always the cynics who want the world to change according to or meet the desires of their own cynicism?

 

DOM

[Dominique]

There are men like this. But they exist only in DC comics, on the planet Krypton. Wow, you certainly have a lot of criteria! And what qualities would you think this superman would expect in a woman?

 

 

Oh, this is not true. I've known and have been pursued by men who were well educated, emotionally open, successful, and had an immense sense of responsibility and, yes, household know-how.

 

The main difficulty I personally have discovered is that I tend to be attracted to men older than myself and something plays on their "fear" that I will run off with someone younger. This has come up time and time again and has been a real point of consternation. However, everyone can have a shakey ego in love--I understand this to a point.

 

 

DOM

[Eve]

....that there are women who get to this point.

 

I think that women idealise relationships all the time hence my quip regarding robot husbands... Even though I can only speak from a female perspective I think that men also fall into this trap. My concern from a female perspective is that we have to be yet more careful because we have the ultimate responsibility because we can bear children. Having children can make or break a woman. I hope that you understand that I really was just playing devils advocate - I am happily married in real life. BUt I do hear so many projections day to day from women when really they need to firstly find the qualities which they need within themeslves before they go looking for whatever they need in a partner. There is nothing more powerful than a woman who knows that she is beautiful and able to cope without a man. Without such a stance relationships can become a burden, when they become a burden.

 

I think we have to be realistic and acknowledge that a correlation exists between the fianacial stability of women and level of issues such as domestic violence, child abuse etc. I for one am raising my girls to be as independant as possible but also teach them to be open to others - but not at their expense. I have been careful to do this because historically women have been second class citizens for SO long! Our caring natures are usurped and taken for granted. I see this as the greatest time in history for women to really grow into themselves and not have to grow via the niches given to them via society. Of course, there is yet another balance to be met and this is that now men are afraid of us more successful types. Maybe they have some growing to also achieve?

 

I know my husband has had to change his views since meeting me. He has to help around the home and we agreed that he only ever work overtime if it is an emergency so that the children really know him. I would rather have had less money (back in the day of my Husbands wage being the primary wage and my part-time income was used for special treats) Yeah, I would rather have had less money than having a distant husband - might as well be on my own! My Husband ex did everything in the house and I can see why she was discontented. She chose to look for whatever she thought she wanted in another man, instead of herself and now is a worse predicament. So, I think that we have to be careful to not idealise anything (whether it be a career or a relationship) and know that there are base desires at work within our psyches which are probably hard wired but can be changed over time, if we want to work at it together.

[Siciliana]

Be wary. As a child I saw my mom on nights and weekends. It was not an ideal situation and in many ways I felt abandoned. Looking back I probably had it better than most, though I had some really bad babysitters.

 

Success in life is often not so much about getting what you want, but about wanting what you've got. Yes, that's cliche, but very true.

 

Also, I know you already know this... but make sure Dad is in the picture in a big way. I can't believe how many women are just permanently broken inside because of that.

 

I know I can never do anything 100% correctly all the time in regards to parenting. We make mistakes. This I know. I am sure when she grows up she will have complaints about what kind of parent I was. My step-sister who had the most perfect life of any kid I have ever seen has complaints about how my dad and stepmom raised her.

 

With that being said, my child has never had a "baby sitter". When I am at school she is with her father. The only other people who watch her are her grand parents or aunts. If the family is not available to watch her, I take her to school with me and she sits in class with me. I refuse to leave her with someone who is not blood. It is simply not worth the risk. During the day she is at school.

 

Her father and I get along very well as far as divorce people go. I do my best to be good to him and show her that he matters to me because he matters to HER. We have dinner together every night as a family and we celebrate all holidays together. I even took him and his entire family out for dinner for his Bday last month. I even pay HIM child support, even though she lives with ME. He cannot afford to live on his own right now and needs help financially. I do this becuase I don't want to see him suffer. It is vital, as you indicated, to my daughters well being that she knows and loves her father. I am one of those women that was permanently broken on the inside because of how my parents allowed their divorce to go down. I learned form their mistakes.

[Trialbyfire]

I'm a full-time professor of History and Philosophy at a highly respected American university, my dear.

 

Lots more going on than sunshine and lollipops--but I enjoy those too.

 

No need to be jaded over there,

 

So again, do lighten up....

 

DOM

Haha...right...

 

Anyways, wouldn't it make more sense for you to express your opinion and for me to express mine?

 

Btw, how's your love life? Mine's fine.

[dannydrifter]

Haha...right...

 

Anyways, wouldn't it make more sense for you to express your opinion and for me to express mine?

 

Btw, how's your love life? Mine's fine.

 

How do you have time for a love life with over 22000 posts? You must spend a lot of time on your computer, particularly this site!

[soserious1]

No, career women are not that attractive to me. Especially if she is a woman who highly values her independence and emphasises that she doesn't need a man. Then it is a turn-off for me.

 

I am not as ambitious as they are and I want/need to be needed in a relationship, that usually makes me unattractive as a partner for them too. It's just incompatible personalities, some people are simply not a good match.

 

If I wasn't career minded my soon to be ex husband would have starved to death long ago. As far as "not needing a man" the person who taught me that lesson was that very same soon to be ex husband.

[Trialbyfire]

How do you have time for a love life with over 22000 posts? You must spend a lot of time on your computer, particularly this site!

I work from home with duo monitors so I can pander to my ADHD. This isn't the only site I'm on, during the day and this isn't the only thing I do. Multi-tasking is really worthwhile. You should consider it. It's like working out but with your brain. Try it sometime!

 

Can we get back to the topic at hand v. finding ways to denigrate me?

 

I am a career woman and am very happy to be this way. If it's not attractive to a man, that's okay too. As previously stated, the men who I mesh well with, seem to find it an attractive quality. They're not threatened by independence.

[fral945]

Can we get back to the topic at hand v. finding ways to denigrate me?

 

That's what I was hoping for, Trial, but I don't seem to be getting too many posts from men, just women defending their careers or telling me about their worthless husbands.

[Trialbyfire]

That's what I was hoping for, Trial, but I don't seem to be getting too many posts from men, just women defending their careers or telling me about their worthless husbands.

Or ones who pretend to agree with you?

[soserious1]

That's what I was hoping for, Trial, but I don't seem to be getting too many posts from men, just women defending their careers or telling me about their worthless husbands.

 

 

So a career primary woman is a turn off to you? I can't see why that is any sort of a problem as you are free to date or not date anyone as you see fit.

[Dominique]

I work from home with duo monitors so I can pander to my ADHD. This isn't the only site I'm on, during the day and this isn't the only thing I do. Multi-tasking is really worthwhile. You should consider it. It's like working out but with your brain. Try it sometime!

 

Can we get back to the topic at hand v. finding ways to denigrate me?

 

I am a career woman and am very happy to be this way. If it's not attractive to a man, that's okay too. As previously stated, the men who I mesh well with, seem to find it an attractive quality. They're not threatened by independence.

 

 

Ah, but a few posts back you see fit to take a swipe at my love life based on my own threads in another section of LS, most likely as an attempt on your part at a low-blow against my comments here--Yes, an attempt at insult as a means of argument for those with little to say...How desperate, how low brow... sad...

 

And to your earlier comment, "Yeah Right".....Yes, right, indeed. A Ph.D. from Columbia University in Classics. I'll pm you my thoughts in Greek and Latin if you would like...

 

And no ADHD, and no monstrous 22,000 posts....Yikes...

 

Hmmm.. Come to think of it...I have to question how "fine" a love life can be if one is that anxious...

 

 

DOM