fundamental or insignificant clash?

[hendersongirl]

hi there,ok- my boyfriend and i are both poor students, i am 21 and in my 4th year of uni, he is 32 and is back at uni after a 8 years or so working after his first degree. we have been together for 2 years, live together and mostly see eye to eye on everything. my dad lives overseas in london with his wife and child, and makes a LOT of money. when he was visiting for my birthday in april, he offered to fly my boyfriend and i over to see him this summer (southern hemisphere) for a couple of weeks. my boyfriend said yeah that would be lovely, but to me said maybe. then we started to talk about how we'd love to see greece and israel and he was really enthusiasic, but we decided because of the war etc israel wouldnt be such a good idea- i still assumed london was a given and was really excited. now it is time to organise dates etc... i asked my boyfriend if we could talk about the trip, and he said he's not coming. we've had three massive fights about it - his view is that if he can't afford to go on a holiday he doesn't want to be 'subsidised' especially because he is at a stage in his life where he would have been able to afford to go if he made different decisions (to work instead of coming back to study). i know he is a bit touchy about his age vs his stage (thinks he should own a house by now). & he thinks his relationship with my dad would forever be flavoured by the situation of giving him such a large gift. plus he said that it seems that i'm not happy with him as he is (poor), and that offends him. my view is- our financial situations, past decisions etc are irrelevant as we have been offered a trip, and i know my dad well enough to know he REALLY wants us both to come and he would LOVE to see us, so the right thing to do is accept graciously. plus i am quite offended at effectively being called class-ist (even though i am just as poor as he is). we have talked this out for many hours, and neither of us can see the other's point of view. can you give me your opinion? or help me to understand his side?

[Geishawhelk]

He's got Pride and Prejudice to work on......

 

My partner is a mature student at 46, and he feels he should have more at this time of life than he has achieved. But it will come, it will pay off.

 

Your problem is that you're piggy-in-the-middle. You're defending your dad to him, and you're probably also stressed that you'll have to make excuses for him, to your dad.

 

Do what I have done.

Step back.

 

Tell your dad your partner has issues with what he sees as being given a freebie, but that you don't intend to get involved, they'll have to sort it out between themselves, they're both grown men.

You go and accept your dad's invitation, whatever your BF does. Tell him you are doing so, because it's your choice. he's made his, and now you're making yours.....You too, are an adult and can make your own decisions. But don't be emotionally blackmailed, like this, and coerced into making a choice.

This isn't a conscious and deliberate act of blackmail by him, but that's what it is all the same. It puts you in an untenable position, and you have to show you won't stand for it, from day one.

[hendersongirl]

thanks. he has been saying that i should go. its just that- i wanted to go together, my dad wants both of us to come. i hate having to be in the middle, i asked bf if he would talk to dad and explain, or else what should i say... he said no and say whatever you want, so i said that he wouldnt be able to afford to pay his rent because the govt only gives him student allowance if he is in the country. (true, but we could work that part out if he agreed to come). dad (bless him) offered to pay his rent - or else to postpone the trip til when he can come. i said id talk with bf about it and call him back tomorrow. bf just got annoyed at me for telling dad he couldnt afford rent, and wouldnt let me tell him dads response. i got really mad... but anyway- bf wants me to go on my own, so its not really blackmail? i agree its pride.... but what can i say to convince him that NOBODY THINKS HES A BAD PERSON... my dad has had his fair share of poverty- living in friends' attics and suchlike- he worked hard to get where he is and he is the least materialistic, most generous person i know. he knows he has an insane amount of money, he wants to spend it on FUN. why cant my bf accept this trip??!

[Geishawhelk]

The fact that your BF told you to talk to your dad, is the classic cop-out.

 

" No - YOU talk to my dad. YOU'RE the one who doesn't want to go, don't ask me to make excuses for you, it's not fair....." is what you should have said, because now, look....it's just complicated things. You felt you had to say something to your dad as an excuse to make your BF not sound so bad....it put you in a nasty position.

 

That's just not on.

In future, if he's got anything he wants to say, he should say it. Not ask you to act as a go-between, then complain about what you said.

 

In my opinion, I would just now drop the subject. Be decisive about going. if he doesn't want to join you, that really IS his problem, and he's cutting his nose to spite his face.

At least he'll know you've put your cards on the table.

 

If this is going to be an issue between you.... when will it stop? When will he start accepting invitations and being sociable?

How long DO you have to wait before he'll be prepared to accept the kindness and hospitality of others, and not be so bloody arogant and proud?

 

It will get worse, if it's not dealt with now.

[hendersongirl]

hmm yes that's partly what i'm worried about - hence the title - but if he genuinely feels awful at the thought of being a charity case... i know i shouldn't force him to do something he doesn't want to do, but it's like - make an effort? i don't know which of us is being unreasonable. or if neither of us are and it's a fundamental clash of worldviews. thanks for your advice, i will go ahead and go, and stuff him. maybe when dad calls tomorrow i'll give bf the phone and he can damn well explain himself to my heartbroken father...

[Geishawhelk]

Good move.

[Lucky_One]

Is your BF handy with tools and things? Is there a project that your dad needs doing? A room painted, a deck built, a fence built, a flower bed dug, edged and planted? Could your BF do the project in "payment" for the plane ticket?

 

(I am assuming that you would be there for a while, since rent will be a problem, so doing a big project wouldnt take up the entire trip. Altho why would the rent people know that BF was out of town?)

[hendersongirl]

thanks lucky for the idea - it's a good one, however no, my bf isn't particularly good with tools. he's the scholarly type.. plus my dad rents. and, we would only be going for two weeks, however my bf has ZERO money and relies on the government student allowance, which you have to be in the country to get. the government will know...

[Walk]

I can understand your situation. While I was at uni I was dating my now H, and he was the exact same way about things my parents wanted to do for us or give us. We were very poor at the time.

 

Anyway, I think you're approaching this the wrong way. The harder you fight him on it the more he'll dig in his heels. He isn't being a stuborn a-hole to tick you off, or to take away anything from you. He's standing his ground because it's what he believes is the right thing to do. You won't get anything positive from forcing him to see things your way. Your best bet is to take a much softer approach to this.

 

I get the feeling that your bf's parents are not as well off as your family is. It seems that you're accustomed to your parents doing things for you that to others would seem... uh.. excessive. I'm not judging you, my parents do the same for me on occasion and I think nothing of it, but my H's reaction always shocks me. And I think your bf is reacting the way my H reacts. It seems that your bf links his self-worth with his financial stability. Having your father snap his fingers and instantly give you the things the two of you had talked about doing together would be the same as calling your bf a loser. You might as well have slapped your bf and told him he was worthless because he doesn't measure up to your dad. Not that you meant it that way, but I'm sure it felt a bit like a slap in the face to your bf.

 

I'm really impressed that your bf is insisting that you go on the trip and enjoy yourself. It shows he isn't with you for monetary gain, or what your parents can provide. He's with you because he loves who you are, not what you can give him.

 

Also, take into consideration that your bf doesn't know your father the way you do. Your father is still a stranger to him. It'd be like you spending an entire week with his mother. I'm sure you've met her, but how comfortable would you be having his mom spend tons of money on you and have to spend a full week with her? I'd feel uncomfortable, and like a mooch for taking a great deal from a near stranger.

 

All in all, I think you're being too hard on your bf. I think you're too much inside your own head and you need to try to see the situation through his eyes. Instead of butting heads together over this, try putting yourself in his shoes fully. If you find you're having a hard time doing that, then it would really help the both of you if you took a less "in your face" approach to this issue. Ask your bf more questions about how he feels and why he feels that way, while making him feel secure that your not goin to use that knowledge to attack him later. Make it a safe conversation. One that he can feel that if he opens up your not going to blast him away for not agreeing with how you see things.

 

Most importantly, the goal isn't to get your way on this. The goal should be trying to understand each other, and making your relationship stronger and more secure. Come at the issue from the angle of "what's best for BOTH of us" and you won't go wrong. You take the lead, and he'll follow...

 

p.s. I just realized you're talking about 2 weeks. That's a LONG TIME spent with not yet father in laws.

[hendersongirl]

Thanks Walk.

You seem to have his mind all worked out - the slap in the face thing is exactly what he described. I don't get how it is an insult though? Could you explain more? He has tried to explain it to me but I just feel that if someone offers you a gift it says nothing about who you are... It's simply a gift.

 

But in fact, his parents are more well off than what I grew up with - my parents split up when I was 6 months old, so for my whole remembered life I have lived with my Mum and her partner, both my sisters are from the Stepdad. We weren't rich by ANY standard - single income and stay at home mum - we had the usual "leftovers or corn flakes" days leading up to payday and all that. My Dad just recently started making lots of money in the last few years, so it's still exciting and new. Bf's parents are pretty well-off, but not excessive. I've met his mum quite a few times now, she's lovely and I wouldn't mind spending time with her - but even if I didn't like her I would suck it up for two weeks if it meant that much to him.

 

Anyway, thanks for your insight. I took (paranoidly and unfairly, I know) the insisting I go and he stays as he wanted to get rid of me, or a cop out... Like I can take the gift but he can't? I understand that he would feel bad about taking a large gift, but I thought that once I assured him that he needn't feel bad, he could put his manly pride aside and come...

 

I've left the issue alone now, but I still feel it is unresolved, at least in my mind.

[pretty professional]

I see his point. He doesn't want your dad subsidizing a trip to Europe for him.

Just go without him and enjoy the trip without him, no biggie.

No sense in fighting over it - he doesn't want to go because he wants to pay for it himself. So....the obvious answer is to go without him.

[Walk]

You seem to have his mind all worked out - the slap in the face thing is exactly what he described. I don't get how it is an insult though? Could you explain more? He has tried to explain it to me but I just feel that if someone offers you a gift it says nothing about who you are... It's simply a gift.

Basically, the trip isn't a "gift", it has repercussions attached to it.

 

Your bf isn't willing to risk his rent money on a trip in which he has to feel grateful that you offered to take him on. You wanted him to go, once he goes it's not as if you would do anything special for him in return because... well, he already got a vacation, didn't he? So you'll feel you're both even, and your bf will feel like he risked a great deal for something only you wanted. He could lose his home, he could lose his educational opportunity. He's already risking a lot by being at uni instead of working. He took that risk because he wants a better future. You're asking him to jeapordize that for an instant gratification type of thing.

 

Then you try to convince him that he should want this because it's free, and it won't cause any problems for him down the road. When you tell him not to be concerned it brushes aside his concerns as having no merit. It undermines him.

 

You said earlier that you'd handle the gov money issue if, or when, it occures. But you didn't mention how you planned on doing that. If the gov denies the rent money then you're setting your bf up to become dependent on your dad for financial support. You're asking your bf, a man who prides himself on being self reliant (even the gov money is money he paid taxes into), to place his fate in the hands of.. well, your daddy. The only reason your dad would give financial assistance to your bf is because your dad doesn't want his little girl to have to go without. Which in essence is saying your bf can't give you what you deserve.

 

I'm sure your bf would love to take a 2 week vacation with you, especially since it's something you said you wanted. But you two are not arguing for the same things. That's why you're clashing so hard on this. You're bf is fighting to remain a strong, independent, capable human being who can take pride in the fact that what he's accomplished, he's accomplished on his own. Even the money he takes from the government is something he's worked and paid into over the years.

 

You're also asking him to toss aside the idea that part of a man's value is derived from his financial status in life. In theory this is great.. no person should be discounted based solely on his annual income. Yet human's do it, and it's ingrained in us that men are valued by how much money they earn. It's getting better over the years, but there still remains that stigma that men who can't provide for their women are worthless. You can't yell that out of him. It takes years of constant reiteration and actions to allow him to let go of that belief.

 

It's about feeling self-reliant, about being capable, about self-worth. From things you said, it sounds as if he may be having self-esteem issues with how little money he has right now. So he's feeling a hit to his manhood that he can't be the great provider you deserve to have. For a man who's already feeling low about how piss-poor of a provider he's being, and then insist to him that your dad will take care of the two of you.. especially if things go badly with the gov. You told him that you don't feel he is capable of taking care of either of you. It says you have no faith in him. That's where the slap comes in.

 

I've left the issue alone now, but I still feel it is unresolved, at least in my mind.

You need to talk to him about this. But instead of trying to convince him to change how he feels, you just need to listen to him. Make it a calm and safe discussion where he won't feel like you're going to attack him about how he feels. Then just listen to what he's saying. That will go a great deal farther then any argument you could come up with for why he should go with you. He mostly just wants to feel that you respect him, admire him, and love him.

 

If you really want to convince him to go with you, then get something concrete from the gov that allows your bf to go out of country without losing his money. Adjust the trip to half the length, or even a quarter. Right now, this is all about what you want and you're upset that your bf isn't following you. It's a little ironic actually... he's fighting to prove he's a strong, independent, capable man. And your pushing to get him to do what you want him to do. You'll both lose if you go with the head to head power struggle. Find a different route to get what you want, and adjust how you go about it. Just because it's something you want doesn't make it a bad thing, but how you're going about it isn't working. So find a different way. You're smart.. genius I think you said. You'll find something that works.

[pretty professional]

The problem is you are 21 and not that far off from being a teenager, and at the point in your life where it is no problem that your parents pay for everything and support you financially.

He is 31, the point in your life where Mom and Dad aren't paying your room, board, trips, etc.

So yes, it is a fundamental difference.

You need to understand this or drop it.

He is actually showing values and integrity here and that he is not a mooch.

The other reality which you might not want to hear is that he is thinking he may not still be with you by then.

[Vertex]

I am a 21-year old college student attending an overly-expensive university, and doing it without any financial assistance from family. I also had a girlfriend (unfortunately I am now single) who came from a very, very wealthy family. I am quite poor in comparison, as I have to pay all my own bills and make my own money, and this is hard to do at a college like this. My girlfriend's mother, a bit over a year ago, offered to fly me over to her home (which is in another country outside of the US) for Spring Break with my girlfriend. I normally spend my Spring Breaks working because it's a chance to earn money while not having to worry about school (I am a fulltime student and a part-time worker).

 

It was a huge topic of debate for a while because I had a lot of trouble accepting such a gift. Airfare was extremely expensive (well over a thousand dollars) and to me, that was a huge chunk of change. I also had trouble accepting the opportunity cost of not working, coupled with the fact that I'd be further "indebted" as a result of accepting such a trip. I'd say Walk's reasoning is quite accurate, here.

 

 

 

 

*****This section isn't relevant to your situation, but this is what happened when I decided to accept the trip******

 

I am sure this would not happen to you, but I ended up accepting the trip, which later caused issues. My girlfriend was financially irresponsible and spent money like crazy because she could afford to, and didn't seem to understand that I had to work for my own money and had to monitor everything, especially considering that I also paid for my own schooling. It's a huge responsibility that she never quite grasped. She'd get angry with me whenever I'd say I couldn't afford to do something. So, there were times when we would fight and she would bring up the trip as leverage: "But my mom flew you over FOR FREE!" Essentially, when things got rough, she'd have no problem trying to guilt-trip me into something because I had accepted such a grand gift from her mother. I thought it was really unfair, considering how badly she wanted me to go and how much I initially resisted. Again, I'm sure you would NOT be the type to do this -- I'm merely sharing the results of my experience for the curious.

 

*********

 

 

 

So, I mean, there are valid concerns potentially explaining his reluctance. He's not trying to be an ass. When you have to manage your own finances, it can be really, really stressful. You have to consider immediate expenses, future expenses, opportunity cost, and emotional implications when you're considering all things social. If he's poor and working for all that he has, then it's probably ingrained in his being, and as a result he's probably a pretty independent guy with a strong sense of integrity. You build up a certain sense of pride as a result of keeping yourself afloat, and so receiving such a large freebie can sometimes feel like "taking the easy way out," which somewhat undermines the notions of financial independence and being a man of your own destiny. Furthermore, he would likely feel guilty simply taking something without giving back. If he had accepted the trip, he may not know how to repay your father for such a generous gift.

 

Anyways I hope this helps shed some light on the situation. If he truly doesn't want to go, don't push him on the subject. Emotional implications aside, the issue of government subsidy is a very strong one. Like Walk suggested, I'd maybe try to explain things from your point of view on the emotional front only if there is some way for him to not have to worry about rent if he went on the trip. If that can't even be resolved, then it's very unlikely you'd persuade him on any further point.

[pretty professional]

I disagree. Just because he doesn't want to accept the gift of a trip from his girlfriend's dad doesn't mean he owes her dad an explanation. His girlfriend can say "It will just be me going, Dad. My boyfriend is unable to go."

 

The fact that your BF told you to talk to your dad, is the classic cop-out.

 

" No - YOU talk to my dad. YOU'RE the one who doesn't want to go, don't ask me to make excuses for you, it's not fair....." is what you should have said, because now, look....it's just complicated things. You felt you had to say something to your dad as an excuse to make your BF not sound so bad....it put you in a nasty position.

 

That's just not on.

In future, if he's got anything he wants to say, he should say it. Not ask you to act as a go-between, then complain about what you said.

 

In my opinion, I would just now drop the subject. Be decisive about going. if he doesn't want to join you, that really IS his problem, and he's cutting his nose to spite his face.

At least he'll know you've put your cards on the table.

 

If this is going to be an issue between you.... when will it stop? When will he start accepting invitations and being sociable?

How long DO you have to wait before he'll be prepared to accept the kindness and hospitality of others, and not be so bloody arogant and proud?

 

It will get worse, if it's not dealt with now.

[Geishawhelk]

If that were true, sure.

But - "My boyfriend is unable to go", is still a lie.

 

He's perfectly able to go. He just won't. And to be put in the position of having to field both sides (and I know it hasn't been done to her deliberately or consciously - but it HAS been done!) is just completely unfair.

 

I had to deal with this kind of situation. I have a relatively controlling mother (although she has mellowed a great deal with age, and recognises her tendencies now) and my BF is very strong-willed. There was a danger of flare-ups and me being caught in the middle, but I'd been through that before with a previous partner, and I was damned if I was going to let history repeat itself.

Before, when I found myself being pulled in both directions, it would bubble on for ages, and be a nightmare to deal with....And the atmosphere!!

Now, Mother and Partner have each other measured up pretty well, and if there are issues, although I feel bad about it, I can step back and let them deal with it. I stay well out of it, and you know what? They're over and done with, real quick.

 

The issue here is the BF's reluctance to accept a gift as it's

been intended. He may feel he has justifications, but it puts the OP in an unenviable situation, and one which she is in no way obliged to resolve for him. If he's got issues, then the only one who can realistically deal with them, is him.

[pretty professional]

I think he is admirable for not wanting to accept handouts from his girlfriend's dad. They are not married and that is rather excessive. Just because her dad offered this gift, doesn't mean he has to accept and he probably should stay home and earn money anyway.

I think the girlfriend is being rather annoying and stubborn. Her boyfriend has really decent, nonmooching reasons.

I am also feeling that because of her childish behavior that he really is thinking he won't be with her anyway.

Also I am feeling he doesn't see the relationship as longterm because to accept such a gift as an overseas trip is to suggest that this is a serious relationship leading to marriage.

It is very noble of him not to take advantage, in light of these circumstances.

She needs to back off if she doesn't want to lose this guy altogether.

He is unable to go because he has integrity and isn't taking advantage and mooching off his dad's "girlfriend."

It is also a manipulative move on the part of the dad. He knows that his daughter wants to snag this man for marriage and he is offering the trip as a gift with the intention of helping her snag him.

[hendersongirl]

Thanks for your time people.

 

Walk - He would not be risking rent money or any educational opportunities. It's simply that for the two weeks he is out of the country the govt will not pay the student allowance. As soon as he gets back they will. He and I together have easily enough to pay our two weeks. That isn't a big deal. It was just an excuse. Also, it isn't a manly pride issue. I already get more money than him (with a part-time job) per week, and so I pay a lot more ($150 vs $70 after our equal share in the rent) towards groceries, movies etc, but we are in a partnership so it's not the same. And he has no problem with that, with using my money to buy nice food as go to the movies or whatever occasionally. He is not trying to prove anything.

 

pretty professional - Thanks for the advice, but I am in no way attempting to 'snag' him for marriage. We have talked about the future, and are definitely in this for the long-term. We moved in together in January (08), and we have signed up for another house starting this January (09). He has brought up marriage many times (he did first). And my Dad would NEVER try to manipulate anyone in that way! He simply wants to see his family and have some fun occasionally. He would come over here (and does twice a year) but he has a one-year old son and a wife, so it would be more of a headache and more expensive that way anyway.

 

Vertex - Thanks for your story. He knows i would never do that to him - make him feel guilty or anything. And we are pretty much in the same financial situation anyway, excepting this trip.

 

Geishawhelk - I'm glad somebody can see it my way!

 

Nevertheless, Walk and Vertex have given me a better view of his perspective, so I have apologised to him for being insensitive, told him I love him just the way he is whether we live in a mansion or a shack, and told him I was just disappointed that we couldn't have the fun holiday I was looking forward to so I overreacted.

 

I will go on my own (mostly to please my Dad, it won't be nearly as good without my partner) and when I get back we will go on our own holiday closer to home :-)

[mental_traveller]

Well he doesn't want to go. Why not just accept that's the way he feels? It sounds like you are giving him a load of grief and hassle over this.

[pretty professional]

Yes, I think you as the OP are being very immature. He's a grown man and he doesn't want your daddy funding an expensive trip. This says a lot of good things about him and a lot of questionable things about you because you are perceiving him as wrong for not being a moocher off your dad.

He has pride.

He doesn't want a free trip.

He wants to go to Europe knowing he paid for it himself, not had it subsidized by his girlfriend's daddy.

This is a real man you have here and you are being controlling and emotionally manipulative toward him.

Better back off! You will lose him if you keep hounding him over this!

[hendersongirl]

mental traveller - it wasn't quite that simple, because both Dad and I (as well as Dad's wife and son) had been looking forward to this trip since April, and he had implied he was coming. I thought he was just being selfish and simply 'couldn't be bothered' coming, which I thought was unfair - he has expressed similar feelings of ambivalence and refused to come along to many things - a weekend with my family (twice - and money was not an issue because they were within driving distance from home), my best friend's 21st, a couple of concerts... It just kind of seemed unfair that he keeps blowing off things which are important to me, especially given how much I do for him. I have been to stay with his brother for two weeks, had his parents stay with us multiple times, I stay up until 6am with him when he has essays due (multiple times), simply rubbing his back and consoling him and cajoling him and proofreading and editing... I'm not talking a couple of hours here and there I'm talking about spending twice as long helping him study as I can spend on my own study. I don't mind doing any of that, I just thought that two weeks out of his life for something *I* really want to do for a change wouldn't be such a big deal. There, I've vented.

[pretty professional]

I'm sorry but it really doesn't sound like he's that invested in the relationship, whether you "rented" your house together or not. Thank you for giving more of the full story.

[hendersongirl]

pretty professional - I'm sorry, but I don't want him to be a "real man" (whatever that means. no really.) for the sake of it, at the expense of other people's feelings. Pride is so frustrating.

And I have stopped 'hounding' him (bringing it up twice is not hounding. He brought it up the third time. And we have participated in mutually consenting discussions.). We have negotiated a compromise.

[hendersongirl]

It is impossible to give you a run down of our entire life. He is also incredibly stressed and can get very low/depressed when he is overloaded with work. I understand that he needs me to be supportive, and I want to be there for him as it is all worth it when he hands the essay in and smiles at me and tells me I am the best person/friend in the world and he could never have gotten through his degree without me. Please don't comment on the parts of our life that you have no knowledge of. Just the topic at hand. Thanks.

[pretty professional]

What is the compromise? He's going halfway to Europe with you on your daddy's dime?