The Collector Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Because I for one am getting the impression that you (and other male posters who are saying the same things you are) want the woman to do all the work - approaching you, asking you out, paying for everything, showering you with sex, taking care of your laundry, cooking and cleaning - and asking for nothing in return. No whining, complaining or nagging. Just good-natured giving. And giving. And more giving. How far off am I?? And what would YOU bring to the table? So far off it's ludicrous? No one has ever suggested that set-up. And women don't like sex?
marlena Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Because I for one am getting the impression that you (and other male posters who are saying the same things you are) want the woman to do all the work - approaching you, asking you out, paying for everything, showering you with sex, taking care of your laundry, cooking and cleaning - and asking for nothing in return. No whining, complaining or nagging. Just good-natured giving. And giving. And more giving. Well, I don't know if ALL men are like this but I do know that a lot of them do have this mentality,yes. Even in this day and age male chauvinist pigs abound.
vonerik012 Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 This is the exact situation I was alluding to in the other threads. This man is her SO, and it is not first date. In her post it seems like she wanted him to pay for her, and her sister. If you were a man, you would not get a pass for working a part time job.. Women on here would be calling you lazy, you shouldn't be dating etc. Why should he pay for everything? It gets old after a while.
CommitmentPhobe Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I always get the woman to pay, then again I only date high quality women who appreciate a guys needs, money and sex.
Krajt Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 You don't have to pay a lot of money to enjoy a date with someone. Of course it is nice if a man takes a woman somewhere expensive, but a Michelin star restaurant is fruitless, if there is no chemistry.
djhall Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 For what purpose? What do you hope to accomplish by "opening our eyes" to how hard you guys have it? Please, instead of complaining about it, tell us the scenario you would like to see? Because I for one am getting the impression that you (and other male posters who are saying the same things you are) want the woman to do all the work - approaching you, asking you out, paying for everything, showering you with sex, taking care of your laundry, cooking and cleaning - and asking for nothing in return. No whining, complaining or nagging. Just good-natured giving. And giving. And more giving. How far off am I?? And what would YOU bring to the table? Well, I see no reason to take things to the opposite extreme either. My preference, as discussed in the other thread the OP referenced, is to have things be more of a back-and-forth betweem both parties. If a man asks a woman out on a first or second date, I see no reason why she should be unwilling to take the initiative to invite him for the second or third date. Nobody expects things to be perfectly equal in terms of alternating, or expense, or anything like that. Simply put, neither should expect to always be the giver or always be the receiver. As for women asking men out, I don't expect women to run around asking men out on dates all the time, but if you're on here posting about how cute he is, and how you like the way he smiles at you, and agonizing over why he hasn't asked you out yet, then yes, stop sitting around passively waiting for someone else make something happen and ask! Remember, we are talking about dating here, not long-term exclusive relationships. Most "dates" never develop past dating and into a relationship. He isn't in love with you, you're dating, the whole point of which is to get to know each other and see if maybe you might be two people who could love each other. Laundry, cooking, cleaning? Really? If I ever took a woman to a movie and she came over an hour early to do some laundry and a little cleaning, I would be completely and utterly shocked as well as mystified as to why she would do something like that!
djhall Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I do try to do non-monetary things, however, sometimes he demands them knowing fully well it infuriates me. For example, when we just wake up he turns around and says "go make me coffee"...right as I was about to go do it out of my own inclination....but just as he says that, I cannot for the life of me do it...Usually he does it because he knows it irritates me, but I just hate that sometimes he actually means it.. Oh, no, not funny... And I've seen guys do the, "Honey, would you like a cup of coffee? Yeah, great, would you get me one two while you're at it?"
Shygirl15 Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Indeed he's cheap. Very cheap. I would never date such an individual.
zicke Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Im a woman and I think everything is 50/50. I don't expect a man to open a door for me to give me one penny. I have no probs paying for my own meals/tickets. As a matter of fact I used to date someone who was unemployed and I had to pay HIS meals, cell phone, books, parking tickets, medical bills and lots more... I am not as stupid anymore to do that in the future but I would want everything to be 50/50 to the PENNY. I do not expect anything extra just because I am a woman. I make very good money and I have no problem paying for myself. Even if I was homeless or dying on the streets I would not expect anyone to give me anything. No one owes me anything. I am independent and have always been on my own since I was 18. Are you currently single or dating someone? If dating, how long? Seriously, men like to be gentlemen, it's in their nature (the good ones that is). I would never open my own car door or other door when my guy is around, it pleases him to do that for me. Why would I take it away from him?
djhall Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I wonder what would happen if the following occurred: He asks her out to a fancy, expensive dinner and the theater. She accepts, he pays. He sounds loaded, so he can most likely afford this. She asks him out, but because she's NOT flush with $$ she takes him out for pizza and a movie which winds up costing half as much as his date. Is he still gonna bitch? Some guys probably would, I'm sure. I personally don't think there is anything at all wrong with that (in fact, she gets bonus points if it was Zachary's Pizza in Berkeley). If you want to go on expensive dates and pay for them, great. If you dont, then don't. What is more important, getting to know the person and spending time with them, or doing expensive stuff?
tanbark813 Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I'm with TBF on this thread. Equal rights has nothing to do with romantic relationships. Actually it does have to do with romantic relationships. The reason it's traditional for a man to pay, in addition to him taking the initiative to ask for the date, is because up until relatively recently women didn't work and men had to pay. Women were taken care of by their father and then by their husband. These days women are in the workforce and have their own money. I don't think things have to be split 50/50 down to the last dime, necessarily, but an appreciative woman will pop for a round of drinks or meal or something here and there. I make a lot more than my gf but she still offers to pay now and then. It's probably more like 70/30 or so. I wouldn't date any woman long term who never paid. Regarding parents, I pick up the bill a lot of times now. I make more than my parents and it's a very small step in paying them back for raising me. Anyone--man or woman--who never offers to pay for anything is nothing but a freeloader.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I hate the splitting of the bill in ANY case. If I invite someone out, parent, child, girlfriend, or another couple, I expect and insist on paying. I have tried to teach my 20 year old who is just our of a long term R with a guy who was usually unemployed and she ALWAYS paid. That from now on to have the money on her to pay but to always let the guy pay if she was invited. NOT to offer to pay her half, instead she should suggest the next activity and make it well known that she will be treating. "I enjoyed the game so much, thanks for having me. Today I'ld like to treat you to Pizza and we can watch the ***** play. That is fair and equitable to me. Noone is forced into paying for something that they can't afford or doesn't desire to. I believe if I was expected to pay my half, I would claim that I didn't have the funds to go this time, that maybe I could swing an Extra Value Meal at Mickey D's if he were interested.
manugeorge Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I'm with TBF on this thread. Actually it does have to do with romantic relationships. The reason it's traditional for a man to pay, in addition to him taking the initiative to ask for the date, is because up until relatively recently women didn't work and men had to pay. Women were taken care of by their father and then by their husband. These days women are in the workforce and have their own money. I don't think things have to be split 50/50 down to the last dime, necessarily, but an appreciative woman will pop for a round of drinks or meal or something here and there. I make a lot more than my gf but she still offers to pay now and then. It's probably more like 70/30 or so. I wouldn't date any woman long term who never paid. Regarding parents, I pick up the bill a lot of times now. I make more than my parents and it's a very small step in paying them back for raising me. Anyone--man or woman--who never offers to pay for anything is nothing but a freeloader. I agree with this, what it boils down to is basic 'do unto others" consideration of people. If I'm the one, as a woman, making more money, I wouldn't want him to expect me to pay all the time either. Sh*t I work hard for my dollar, and no one has dibs on my paycheck except the effing government. Each party treats, you are not doing him any special favors by going out with him, he is no more enjoying your company than you are enjoying his so why not act accordingly then?. And like someone else said above, it's customary and common sense to pay if you do the inviting. You have to keep people's financial limitations in mind at all times. I won't invite my boyfriend to a $200/ticket concert and expect him to just fork over his share of it, not without checking with him to see if he can afford that FIRST. I don't think women really realize how much dates cost and how quickly those dollars add up. I go out to eat with my boyfriend over the weekend, and pick up the tab, I check my bank account on monday and sometimes there is a sting of just how much I spent that weekend on movies, drinks, dinner, snacks etc. And that is just one weekend, trust me, we don't go to fancy places either. Now imagine if a guy has to do that ALL the time? come on ladies.
djhall Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 she should suggest the next activity and make it well known that she will be treating. "I enjoyed the game so much, thanks for having me. Today I'ld like to treat you to Pizza and we can watch the ***** play. That is fair and equitable to me. Noone is forced into paying for something that they can't afford or doesn't desire to. That is exactly what I've been trying to say. Maybe I just needed a woman to get it right.
vonerik012 Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 This girl is talking about her significant other. Most likely they are not formally asking each other out. As I said before, it is always the girl with no job, no money, no work ethic, who calls men "Cheap" if they ever bring up the fact that they are tired of paying for everything.
djhall Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 This girl is talking about her significant other. Most likely they are not formally asking each other out. As I said before, it is always the girl with no job, no money, no work ethic, who calls men "Cheap" if they ever bring up the fact that they are tired of paying for everything. Yes, but we got off onto dating because her S.O. was complaining, "that on first dates its not fair since you dont know if you will be seeing each other again. He went on and on about that and kinda hinted that he would like us to split the bills during meals etc." Which makes me think much of what he said probably isn't directly about their relationship specifically, since he is specifically referencing first dates which have nothing to do with their relationship any more, and he is being labeled as "cheap" for feeling that the dating dymanic where the man pays for everything on all dates isn't fair. I was hoping to point out that his views on that matter didn't necessarily make him cheap, especially since he has apparently been quite willing to pay for his parents, for her with no prior complaint but maybe a little hinting, and for his brother with complaining to mom, though why a man is buying a man drinks I don't know.
Krajt Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Indeed he's cheap. Very cheap. I would never date such an individual. In fairness the feeling is probably mutual, ergo you wouldn't have to worry about him, that's one less problem for you, right?
vonerik012 Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 exactly... The OP A. Does not treat her parents B. Does not split bills with her boyfriend While her boyfriend pays for his parents, pays for her, and his brother! And he is the cheap one according to her! When you date a woman like this, it is impossible. They are takers on all fronts, (parents, boyfriends), then call the actual givers cheap when they merely hint things should be 50/50 a bit more. Then it really becomes infuriating when they call YOU cheap, after you have been paying for everything, and they contribute nothing to anyone in their lives. They dont even feel they should ever pay for themselves.
Krajt Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I lay the blame squarely at her boyfriend's door, what is he doing dating someone who is only with him to free load? If you give someone an inch in this life, then expect them to take the mile. If men and women didn't "put" up with free loaders then they'd soon wind their neck in and change their hymn sheet.
djhall Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Indeed he's cheap. Very cheap. I would never date such an individual. Don't you think you are being a little harsh? Apparently from what I can see in the OP, he has been paying for everything, or the majority of things, in their relationship without being asked and without comment or complaint until now. He apparently pays for his family's meals and drinks when they dine together, albeit with some complaint about his brother, but honestly, what kind of grown man mooches free drinks or meals off his brother? Still, on the basis of a single conversation referenced in a forum post you can be that judgmental of they guy?
zicke Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I have to agree with Tanbark----I do expect men to pay in the beginning of seeing each other, however, I do not ask to go to the most expensive places, and on a first date, I am most comfortable with meeting for a drink or two. Once in a bonafide relationship, yes, the woman needs to lay some cash on the line. I am currently seeing someone who does not want me to pay when I offer, however, I do insist on buying a round or two. I will try and do things to make it up to him. I do think that John Gray has some very valid points--men do like to be the pursuers, and I have found in my own life that being receptive is the best way. I do like alpha men though. The more alpha, the better. So, it just works out best for me. My personality would run roughshod over a man who is weaker. I am very feminine natured when in a relationship, but it takes an alpha to bring it out of me. With a male who is more "feminine", I would be too domineering. Which would suck for me and him.
zicke Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Yeah, but how long has she been a "student" for? I'm in HR, trust me, there are perpetual students out there who do not want to make that leap from part-time worker, full time student to actual adult. Is she on her second PHD? Third Masters? I went to school full time and worked full-time, it can be done. I am not saying that she is one of these...but, isn't she like 27? Unless it's medical school or law school or an MBA, she needs to come join the rest of us in the real world. If it's grad school on russian literature or something, she certainly can find a full time job in a call center or something. Not trying to be a bitch, but, I have run across many people who cannot leave the comforting arms of the educational system. Again, not trying to make accusations, even though it sounds like it.
manugeorge Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I think that the OP's boyfriend expects to still go to spendy places, however, or whenever he asks her out, and then takes her to a place she simply can't afford, then starts complaining about the bill. I agree that the person who initiates the dinner out should treat the other. If he is suggesting going to Outback, which can be up to $60 and such for 2 people if you get appetizers, drinks at 7 plus bucks a pop....and he has suggested it, it is not fair for him to say "I am irked that we never split the bill" when the dinner outing was his suggestion, as well as the choice of restaurant. If she asks him out, she can ask him to Taco Del Mar, Sonic, or a place she can afford for the two of them on a student's and part time worker's income. However to expect her to pay half when the expensive outing was at his initiation is not fair. To say that she has no work ethic because she is a student and not making his level of income is also not fair. If she can't afford to take him to even those places, if it is really a strain on her (and let's face it, on many students it is a strain), then she should tell him "Look, I can't afford to take you out, I really wanted to. I would like to take you to my place and make you Kraft Macaroni and Cheese with Tuna. I know it doesn't sound like much, but I want to treat you, and then you can relax as we watch TV and I give you a massage and we watch your favorite program, as long as it's not cable as I can't afford cable." It simply can't be a 50/50 relationship (monetarily anyway) at this point because he is making $100,000 working full time and she is still a college student. However it can be fair with the method I listed above. So he is not being cheap....just inconsiderate to his girlfriend's financial situation. I agree with you, you do always have to be conscious and considerate of the financial constraints of your dates and your SO. Everyone should be expected to treat and chip in according to their capabilties. Which is not even to say that her boyfriend should be expected to fork over the big bucks just because he makes $100k, his financial priorities and spending habits may be different and should be respected. But being a poor grad student doesn't excuse anyone from chipping in in little ways. A picnic is a sweet reciprocal guesture that will cost you $20 bucks.
Trialbyfire Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Agreeing to date someone who's in another financial situation than self, doesn't equate to getting married and pooling resources. No man or woman can EXPECT to be kept in a lifestyle by their partner. This is called "taking advantage of your partner".
zicke Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 You are not to judge that, though. That is not the point. He became involved with her romantically knowing her educational background and understanding that he is financially able to pay for a night out at Outback Steakhouse and it isn't nearly as easy for her to swing it. Maybe she didn't start college until later - maybe she is a grad. student. Maybe she is trying to pay her full way without relying on loans so it is taking her longer to finish....maybe her mother died when she started college and she left for a few years and then went back when she was emotionally ready....all of these are also equally viable reasons she is in school at age 27. Being a student at age 27 is nothing to criticize. quote=zicke;1853037]Yeah, but how long has she been a "student" for? I'm in HR, trust me, there are perpetual students out there who do not want to make that leap from part-time worker, full time student to actual adult. Is she on her second PHD? Third Masters? I went to school full time and worked full-time, it can be done. I am not saying that she is one of these...but, isn't she like 27? Unless it's medical school or law school or an MBA, she needs to come join the rest of us in the real world. If it's grad school on russian literature or something, she certainly can find a full time job in a call center or something. Not trying to be a bitch, but, I have run across many people who cannot leave the comforting arms of the educational system. Again, not trying to make accusations, even though it sounds like it. I'm not judging, just pointing out another fact. If she is working part-time, there is no way she is not living on student loans unless her parent's have a trust fund for her education. Full-timer's sometimes need to take out loans. A part-time salary ain't cutting it without some other financial help. And to be quite frank, the way her father asked her to pay her share, I doubt that her parent's are footing the bills. (Unless she has grants or scholarships of course or, she's at the local cosmetology school--we don't know) We also do not know how much debt her 100K boyfriend has, maybe he has a mortgage, a car loan, credit cards and Student Loans from when he was in school, maybe even a business loan or line of credit. He could be strapped. And you are right, I have no idea why she is still in school at 27. However, most 27 year olds are done. I am just curious as to if she is in grad school, what her degree is.
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