Trialbyfire Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Who says everything has to be 50/50? He is getting the pleasure of dating her, while also knowing that she has very, very limited resources. Just saw your edit almost_famous. She also gets the pleasure of his company unless she views him as worthless.
Jilly Bean Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 There are 3 things that should be required in high schools - what I call The Big 3 - relationships, money,and raising children. As far as I'm concerned, the expert on relationships is John Gray, and the expert on money is Dave Ramsey. If the theories and principles from these people were taught, the world would be a different place. If you're an adult, read John Gray's books and take Dave Ramsey's 13-wk financial course. They'll both change your lives. (I don't know any experts on raising children.) I like your style, Angel. You're my new cyber BFF. Thing is, in our Moms day, and those before here, everyone DID practice JG principles. Somewhere along the line, women forgot they didn't have testicles...
Angel1111 Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Who said anything about chasing a man? I've never pursued or asked a single man out in my life. No need to. What I do believe is that women can't expect to be treated like princesses all their lives. What man is going to put up with that, beyond the ones who want to be sugar daddies? I was using the term as an example of what women do that are masculine and they shouldn't do. The same as offering to pay for a meal on the first date. When a woman does these things, she takes something away from the man. There's a difference between being treated like a 'jewel' and a 'princess'. A jewel is something you value and treasure. A princess just wears you out.
Angel1111 Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I like your style, Angel. You're my new cyber BFF. Thing is, in our Moms day, and those before here, everyone DID practice JG principles. Somewhere along the line, women forgot they didn't have testicles... Thank you, Jilly Billy!!!! Uh....what's a BFF?
Jilly Bean Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Thank you, Jilly Billy!!!! Uh....what's a BFF? lol. BFF - best friends forever.
Trialbyfire Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I was using the term as an example of what women do that are masculine and they shouldn't do. The same as offering to pay for a meal on the first date. When a woman does these things, she takes something away from the man. There's a difference between being treated like a 'jewel' and a 'princess'. A jewel is something you value and treasure. A princess just wears you out. The first date is an entirely different thing. I've already explained my reasoning for that one. You're entitled to your opinion about men always being the cash cows. I don't believe that at all and live by what I believe in. Men are worth a helluva' lot more to me, than a never-ending bill fold. They deserve to be spoiled too.
Author 4givrnt4gtr Posted September 23, 2008 Author Posted September 23, 2008 my my angel and JB I totally agree with you guys. I also read the martian/venus book. AND the ramsey book. Funny thing is, my bf disagrees with BOTH. The other day he was bi** about not having enough extra cash to save for a plane ticket to his home country to do a retreat. When I mentioned some of the Ramsey strategies like cut down on your monthly expenses like, yes going out, cutting down on the cable etc etc he immediately attacked me saying that that was cheap, that cable was bassically a necessity (beats me since when, Ive never had cable in my life) and that if he didnt have it he would spend even more on going out with his friends. Trial I do more than my share in the relationship. For the longest time I would drive to see him bc I didnt have my own place so I would drive 30 minutes to his place and usually watch a netflix movie and eat his mom's left overs. As ive said before I have paid for both of our dinners, paid for concerts and even a vegas trip (for my own birthday!) So no, its not like he supports me or treats me like a princess. In fact, for valentine's day he gave me stolen candy from his company....yes, the one that say the company logo? yes that. Clearly im very unsatisfied with the relationship...I just dont know if its a temporary thing...or I should just let this go entirely
Jilly Bean Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 my my angel and JB I totally agree with you guys. I also read the martian/venus book. AND the ramsey book. Funny thing is, my bf disagrees with BOTH. The other day he was bi** about not having enough extra cash to save for a plane ticket to his home country to do a retreat. When I mentioned some of the Ramsey strategies like cut down on your monthly expenses like, yes going out, cutting down on the cable etc etc he immediately attacked me saying that that was cheap, that cable was bassically a necessity (beats me since when, Ive never had cable in my life) and that if he didnt have it he would spend even more on going out with his friends. Girl, you are already SO there! You just need to step into the light. Money is the biggest thing that couples will fight over. A shared value system on this topic will make the world of difference.
almost famous Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Some of the best gifts are free, though. If he takes her to dinner at a place she can't likely afford, then she can give him a wonderful massage for free which is priceless. There are other ways to give in a relationship besides with money. Who's to say that just because he's buying more dinners, she's not giving just as much (or not more.) People are hung up on the money aspect of the guy giving and thinking that isn't fair. I think evolved people need to look past that. Look, he can afford to have dinner wherever she wants. She can't. He needs to respect that and appreciate her for what she can give.
Author 4givrnt4gtr Posted September 23, 2008 Author Posted September 23, 2008 Girl, you are already SO there! You just need to step into the light. Money is the biggest thing that couples will fight over. A shared value system on this topic will make the world of difference. Do you mean i am so ready to crack and give him the boot? I wish.... WHen i think about being without him I cringe...not because Im afraid to be alone, cuz in reality ive got tons of things to do that it be much easier if i was single, but because despite it all i love the guy lol Honestly I dont understand myself....objectively speaking, in regards to practical things, we've been bassically screwed from the get go. We have different religious views, very different cultures, (hindu/catholic, Indian/Hispanic). Now added our money value, and then to top it off he often feels like he needs to be my father and tends to overprotect me ("why did you leave the door unlocked!! you can get killed!!!") that makes me feel like im a child. Why am I hanging on so tightly to this.....
Author 4givrnt4gtr Posted September 23, 2008 Author Posted September 23, 2008 Some of the best gifts are free, though. If he takes her to dinner at a place she can't likely afford, then she can give him a wonderful massage for free which is priceless. There are other ways to give in a relationship besides with money. Who's to say that just because he's buying more dinners, she's not giving just as much (or not more.) People are hung up on the money aspect of the guy giving and thinking that isn't fair. I think evolved people need to look past that. Look, he can afford to have dinner wherever she wants. She can't. He needs to respect that and appreciate her for what she can give. I do try to do non-monetary things, however, sometimes he demands them knowing fully well it infuriates me. For example, when we just wake up he turns around and says "go make me coffee"...right as I was about to go do it out of my own inclination....but just as he says that, I cannot for the life of me do it...Usually he does it because he knows it irritates me, but I just hate that sometimes he actually means it..
Angel1111 Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 lol. BFF - best friends forever. Aw....ain't you just so sweet. Back at ya!
Angel1111 Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 You just need to step into the light. Good one!
Jilly Bean Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Do you mean i am so ready to crack and give him the boot? I wish.... WHen i think about being without him I cringe...not because Im afraid to be alone, cuz in reality ive got tons of things to do that it be much easier if i was single, but because despite it all i love the guy lol Honestly I dont understand myself....objectively speaking, in regards to practical things, we've been bassically screwed from the get go. We have different religious views, very different cultures, (hindu/catholic, Indian/Hispanic). Now added our money value, and then to top it off he often feels like he needs to be my father and tends to overprotect me ("why did you leave the door unlocked!! you can get killed!!!") that makes me feel like im a child. Why am I hanging on so tightly to this..... Wow - thats a lot to say, 4. And yes, that's what I meant. It's like your intellectual mind has seen the light, but you haven't married your emotions to that. I can say that for any relationship to have real traction for the future, you really need to have your core values in common. Everything else is negotiable (social compatibility).
almost famous Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 The "make me coffee" thing, that would be the straw for me.
Author 4givrnt4gtr Posted September 23, 2008 Author Posted September 23, 2008 The "make me coffee" thing, that would be the straw for me. Yeah...but as I said he does it to infuriate me, he laughs at how i instinctively punch him in the arm as soon as he says that (or any other variation). Its more like a joke. But still after it, i cannot make myself do it. Why is this so complicated!
cutegirl Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Im a woman and I think everything is 50/50. I don't expect a man to open a door for me to give me one penny. I have no probs paying for my own meals/tickets. As a matter of fact I used to date someone who was unemployed and I had to pay HIS meals, cell phone, books, parking tickets, medical bills and lots more... I am not as stupid anymore to do that in the future but I would want everything to be 50/50 to the PENNY. I do not expect anything extra just because I am a woman. I make very good money and I have no problem paying for myself. Even if I was homeless or dying on the streets I would not expect anyone to give me anything. No one owes me anything. I am independent and have always been on my own since I was 18.
Angel1111 Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I can say that for any relationship to have real traction for the future, you really need to have your core values in common. Everything else is negotiable (social compatibility). I have found that it's much better to marry the guy, spit out a kid or two, and THEN come to the realization that he and I are never going to be on the same page and that I can longer stand it. And I make sure that I spend at least 7-10 yrs on this relationship to ensure that I've wasted a significant portion of my life.
Jilly Bean Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I have found that it's much better to marry the guy, spit out a kid or two, and THEN come to the realization that he and I are never going to be on the same page and that I can longer stand it. And I make sure that I spend at least 7-10 yrs on this relationship to ensure that I've wasted a significant portion of my life. LOL. At least you're not bitter about it, though. 4 - its complicated because as I said, marrying the rational intellect with your heart is extremely difficult. We cant control who we fall in love with, and sometimes when we are in deeply, it makes it a LOT harder to conceive of extricating yourself.
norajane Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 WHen i think about being without him I cringe...not because Im afraid to be alone, cuz in reality ive got tons of things to do that it be much easier if i was single, but because despite it all i love the guy lol Honestly I dont understand myself....objectively speaking, in regards to practical things, we've been bassically screwed from the get go. We have different religious views, very different cultures, (hindu/catholic, Indian/Hispanic). Now added our money value, and then to top it off he often feels like he needs to be my father and tends to overprotect me ("why did you leave the door unlocked!! you can get killed!!!") that makes me feel like im a child. Why am I hanging on so tightly to this..... Unresolved daddy conflicts? They say we work out our issues with our fathers in our relationships with men. In any case, the truth is, this can only get worse if you stay with him. You've set yourself up to fail, really. Religion, money, culture...you've hit all the major trouble spots in a marriage...except sex? As long as you're holding onto him so tightly, you can't ever really be with a man with whom you can be a partner. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you can or should be with them.
djhall Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I'll keep saying this until someone actually listens. Equal rights has nothing to do with romantic relationships. It has to do with working, voting, salary. If a woman chooses to work that's great. If she wants to chase a man, good luck. Why do you consider these separate issues? Dating, marriage, and romantic interactions aren't based on unchanging universal principles of men and women. How we interact in romantic relationships is a direct reflecton of our general cultural and religious standards and how we work, vote, and get paid.
djhall Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I was telling him how my dad had invited me and my sister out for lunch and then asked us to split the bill. Had I known I would have turned down the offer for lunch as I had no money. He said it was ok and that I owed him the meal plus something else he had gotten for my cat a while back (and for which he still had the receipt) Yep, bad situaton, and this is why I believe the person who asks should pay, or at least be ready to pay, unless they clearly indicate otherwise in advance. I was rather surpised about that so i mentioned it to my bf. He said that I should never expect anyone to pay for my meals and in that he always picks up the tab for his parents. . . . Anyway, so i was trying to come to terms with those statements and then he continued telling me how when his brother come to visit he pays for all his brother drinks if they go out etc and his brother never offer to help. I'm not sure what to make of this honestly. On general principle, I agree that you should never expect anyone else to pay for you because it prevents ugly situations like the one with your dad when someone blindsides you and you aren't expecting it. On the other hand, the way you are phrasing it here and following it with the statements that he pays for his parents and his brother, it comes across like he is saying you personally shouldn't expect people to pay for you and not just the general "you" as in every individual, which is pretty nasty if that was the way he meant it. Then went onto say how its not fair that women always want their men to pay. That on first dates its not fair since you dont know if you will be seeing each other again. He went on and on about that and kinda hinted that he would like us to split the bills during meals etc. Now, keep in mind that he makes 100k, while im a grad student and work part time. Granted he has mortgage bills etc but still, i got rent and car payments as well. Again, I'm not sure exactly what he meant by this. Some of this just looks like general purposes complaining, especially about first dates which has no bearing on your relationship anymore. The rest of it could be that he feels like he is footing the whole bill for your relationship and isn't happy about it, it could be that he has his own bills to worry about and is venting because he feels stress about the money he is spending on the relationship, he could be complaining less about the money and more about the feeling that it isn't really appreciated, or it could just be more general purposed bitching about how rough men have it in dating. There is no real way to know what he meant with such limitied information. This whole conversation made me feel that im dating a cheapskate. It kinda made me nervous...but at the same time made me wonder if maybe im too spoiled and expect people to take care of me...i dont know. What do you think? Maybe he really is cheap. Or you could be too spoiled. I can't say, because I don't know. But I can say that the way "traditional" dating is structured looks to some men like: "I meet an attractive woman I may be interested in, and after a little flirting I ask her out. I stick my neck out to make someting happen and suffer the rejection if she tells me she isn't interested. If she accepts, I plan the activities, entertainment, transportation, and other logistics to make the date happen. I pay for everything. Afterward I get to repeat the cycle of asking, planning, and paying for however long we are dating. If things don't develop into a relationship, I get to move on to a new girl and do it all again. Meanwhile, the woman has an endless stream of men coming to throw themselves at her feet, chauffeur her around town, and buy her drinks, meals, and entertainment, without her having to do anything, risk anything, plan anything, or pay for anything." Now I realize that dating has to be much more difficult than that for women, but I also see how guys can complain about women expecting men to pay, expecting men to always be the one to ask them out, and expecting men to "make them feel special" without necessarily being cheap and ungentlemanly. Sometimes some guys just want women to see what it is like from their end.
Gold Pile Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 It's not cheapness to want a fair and equitable split of expenses. In a new relationship the inviter should pay for everything. In a longer term relationship it should be balanced.
Javelin Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 People keep trying to equalize things in the sense that women should do what men do. I wish everyone would get over this. No, a woman should not lavish a man with gifts. Do I make a man feel special - darn right. He thinks he's the king of the world when he's with me. But I do not lavish a man with gifts, I lavish him with my love and kindness because that's part of the jewel. It's a man's nature to want to give, it's a woman's nature to receive. Stop trying to neutralize these things by making them equal. Theyre not. Just like when it usually backfires when a woman asks a man on a date. Most men don't like this - they want to pursue. Women take something away from them when they do that. Women are not the purusers. Each sex has their own gift that compliments the other. I respect the nature of men and women. This is the most ridiculous statement that I have ever read on Love shack and I disagree with everything that you've said thus far.
OpenBook Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 ... the way "traditional" dating is structured looks to some men like: "I meet an attractive woman I may be interested in, and after a little flirting I ask her out. I stick my neck out to make someting happen and suffer the rejection if she tells me she isn't interested. If she accepts, I plan the activities, entertainment, transportation, and other logistics to make the date happen. I pay for everything. Afterward I get to repeat the cycle of asking, planning, and paying for however long we are dating. If things don't develop into a relationship, I get to move on to a new girl and do it all again. Meanwhile, the woman has an endless stream of men coming to throw themselves at her feet, chauffeur her around town, and buy her drinks, meals, and entertainment, without her having to do anything, risk anything, plan anything, or pay for anything." Now I realize that dating has to be much more difficult than that for women, but I also see how guys can complain about women expecting men to pay, expecting men to always be the one to ask them out, and expecting men to "make them feel special" without necessarily being cheap and ungentlemanly. Sometimes some guys just want women to see what it is like from their end. For what purpose? What do you hope to accomplish by "opening our eyes" to how hard you guys have it? Please, instead of complaining about it, tell us the scenario you would like to see? Because I for one am getting the impression that you (and other male posters who are saying the same things you are) want the woman to do all the work - approaching you, asking you out, paying for everything, showering you with sex, taking care of your laundry, cooking and cleaning - and asking for nothing in return. No whining, complaining or nagging. Just good-natured giving. And giving. And more giving. How far off am I?? And what would YOU bring to the table?
Recommended Posts