lonelyandfrustrated Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 I'm getting to the point where I feel like there IS no point anymore. Things got rough (not physically, mind you) again last week when H's work had another of their quarterly cocktail parties, an even though that has always included spouses and SO's, H informed me that the boss has changed it: employees only. This just after our blow-up about the travel, and needless to say, but I don't think the H was truthful with me. I think he just didn't want me to go. I didn't bother to investigate (re: show up or call anyone) because I figure, in all these years, if I suspect him of lying I'm usually right (though not always, I'll admit). If he thinks he's cool for lying to his wife, that's his character flaw, not mine. We're at a total stand-still about the travel. He thinks I'm being unreasonable, and I'd have to agree with him IF we hadn't discussed this before we got married and had a pack of kids together. He actually told me the other night that when we had that discussion nearly a decade ago, he didn't think I was serious. wth? I told him (then) about a couple of past relationships where I was involved with a traveling man and knew that it wasn't something I wanted in my life moving forward and he told me (then) that he never wanted to and would not spend a night away from me, ever. But now he's changed his mind and after having created a large family with me, he's decided that he likes to have nights away from home, to 'hang out with the guys from work'. I think he's being selfish, and he agrees with me on that. He suggested that I get some help, I said for what? Do you really think that someone can convince me that I should be okay with something after I've already done the self-reflection and decided that it is something that I do not have to have in my life if I don't want it? He said, no, he knew that nobody could convince me to change my beliefs, no way. So he said, please, I don't want to split up, let's try counseling again, I'll find someone for us to see and set it up. He doesn't want to go back to the last one because after we'd seen her together for a half-dozen sessions, she suggested that we might benefit the most if H got individual counseling for a while before continuing the joint sessions. He went to one and never went back. And...it's been a week, he had one day off and another half-day at home, but did he do anything toward finding a new counselor? NO. Nothing. So now I'm at the point of just not giving a sh*t anymore. He's being really attentive to me and sweet, but in the back of my mind, I know that he's just going to lie to me again and he's going to continue to travel knowing that it's bad for the family, and I'm tired of getting my heart ripped out so I've closed it. But I'm stuck in the spot of not wanting to rip apart my family, either. I don't have any desire to 'stay for the kids', I know that's not good, and I have spent many, many years deeply in love with and adoring of my husband, but some of the stuff that happens makes me wonder if the love has always been one-sided. He thinks it's all my fault; I think it's all his. Sound familiar? I don't know what I'm after here; just venting, I suppose.
stbx2007 Posted September 22, 2008 Posted September 22, 2008 Sounds like you've done a lot of thinking about all this. You know what you want and you're willing to walk through the wall of fire to get it. I know exactly how you feel. Good luck. I'll be praying for you.
Author lonelyandfrustrated Posted September 25, 2008 Author Posted September 25, 2008 I was going to post in this thread that we've had a turn-about. After several days of not-giving-a-crap, where I just went about business as usual, tending the kids and house and going to work and being cordial to H (even went on a walk with him because he asked me to), not talking about the M or what I want from him, just being nice, and calm, and just planning forward without him, he broke down. I was reading a magazine on the deck and he was doing some yardwork and he just shut down the lawnmower and came up, crying, said he'd been an *ss, said he wanted this to work and that when travel came up for his work, he'd either take me or simply not go. Said it wasn't worth losing me to continue being selfish, apologized for his self-centered ways, begged me to stay. I thanked him. Since then, he's really opened up about the problems he's been facing in our M, told me (without prodding!) that he sees how he has taken his own self-criticism and misapplied that to me, he understands that he hasn't been the best husband and told me the things he'll do going forward to amend that...and so far, he's been doing it. So, I click this thread and read my OP, and realize...I've heard all this crap before. Sigh. Back to Plan A for the Dumb Broad.
Ronni_W Posted September 26, 2008 Posted September 26, 2008 told me the things he'll do going forward to amend that...and so far, he's been doing it. realize...I've heard all this crap before. Lonely, I hear what you're saying...you HAVE heard it all before. But has he ever DONE anything about it before (as you say he is doing now)? Because, isn't this what you've been waiting for? -- for him to start supporting his same old words with some new action?
Author lonelyandfrustrated Posted September 26, 2008 Author Posted September 26, 2008 Lonely, I hear what you're saying...you HAVE heard it all before. But has he ever DONE anything about it before (as you say he is doing now)? Because, isn't this what you've been waiting for? -- for him to start supporting his same old words with some new action? Yeah, I'm hanging in there. I'm not very trusting, though. He's traditionally very attentive after a screw-up, but within weeks he's back to the same-old.
Ronni_W Posted September 27, 2008 Posted September 27, 2008 He's traditionally very attentive after a screw-up, but within weeks he's back to the same-old. Yep, I know how that goes! <sigh> I guess just do what you can, to keep gently reminding him of his most recent commitment...and hopefully you can help, support and encourage him to not backslide more than he is forward-moving. Sending hugs...and all good stuff for positive outcomes
Author lonelyandfrustrated Posted September 27, 2008 Author Posted September 27, 2008 Yep, I know how that goes! <sigh> I guess just do what you can, to keep gently reminding him of his most recent commitment...and hopefully you can help, support and encourage him to not backslide more than he is forward-moving. Sending hugs...and all good stuff for positive outcomes Yeah, I knew you'd relate, Ronni! Big. Heavy. Sigh. There is one difference between this time and all the other times, which gives me hope. Instead of The Speech (re: You're right, I'm sorry, it's all my fault, blah blah blah...), he's sharing his feeling and thought processes, something he couldn't even do when we were in MC years ago. He's letting go of the belief that he's always right and I'm always wrong and he's stopped comparing our marriage to other marriages. Gah, that used to drive me nuts. I don't care what Mr. and Mrs. Mainstreet do in their marriage...I'm not in their marriage! Neither is he!
Author lonelyandfrustrated Posted September 27, 2008 Author Posted September 27, 2008 Gah! See, now, this is what happens when I start giving a crap...I looked at the cell phone records. Two weeks ago on a Thursday, when he was supposed to be at work in one town, all his calls originated from another town. There was one call that originated from his workplace at the time he was supposed to start work, but then about a dozen throughout the day from the next town over, some of them to me. And when he was out of town the last time and said he never left the lodge where they were all staying, there was a 5am call to one of his buddies...originating from a different town from where he was supposed to be...lots of other calls from where he said he was, except that one. He says it must be a mistake in the records. He's an effing liar. I didn't see any numbers that were repeatedly called except mine, his pal's, and his boss. He calls lots of clients, so there will be several to one number spanning over a couple of days while they work a deal, but nothing that carried over from week-to-week. Why does he have to keep lying? That drives me crazy. I can deal with anything as long as it's the truth; at least then I know what I'm working with. But lies? No freakin' way. He really expects me to believe him over the black-and-white records. Right. I have no reason to believe that Verizon is lying to me about where his cell phone is when it's making calls. Him, on the other hand? He's a known liar. Gah!
Simplycaroline Posted September 28, 2008 Posted September 28, 2008 Gah! See, now, this is what happens when I start giving a crap...I looked at the cell phone records. Two weeks ago on a Thursday, when he was supposed to be at work in one town, all his calls originated from another town. There was one call that originated from his workplace at the time he was supposed to start work, but then about a dozen throughout the day from the next town over, some of them to me. And when he was out of town the last time and said he never left the lodge where they were all staying, there was a 5am call to one of his buddies...originating from a different town from where he was supposed to be...lots of other calls from where he said he was, except that one. He says it must be a mistake in the records. He's an effing liar. I didn't see any numbers that were repeatedly called except mine, his pal's, and his boss. He calls lots of clients, so there will be several to one number spanning over a couple of days while they work a deal, but nothing that carried over from week-to-week. Why does he have to keep lying? That drives me crazy. I can deal with anything as long as it's the truth; at least then I know what I'm working with. But lies? No freakin' way. He really expects me to believe him over the black-and-white records. Right. I have no reason to believe that Verizon is lying to me about where his cell phone is when it's making calls. Him, on the other hand? He's a known liar. Gah! He keeps lying because he feels that he needs to. You are unhappy with the fact that he travels so you expect him to change because you have an issue about not being with him which translates to the fact that you do not trust him. Has he ever been unfaithful? Are you REALLY sincere about ending a marriage and putting your childrens life through utter hell just because your husband travels with out you? There are other ways of dealing with this. Please to not think that I am being vicious, I am not trying to be but I want you to look at this from an outside point of view. If the issue is that you have the kids all of the time then make an arrangement with him to once a month go with him on a trip and arrange care for the children. You are being needy because you do not trust your husband and if he is not being unfaithful I do not see why. You are issuing an ugly ultimatum choose your happiness or his own and most people will fight even unconsciously for their own survivial. You have the power right now but if you keep this up you will place him and yourself in the very situation that you fear. You bring your fears to life with the way that you behave. These abandonment issues are yours and your responsiblity to deal with not his. I am not saying that he should lie to you about his travel. He should be honest with you about that. But you would not be able to handle it if he said he was not going to give it up. It would not make him a bad husband. This is his job and it provides/contributes the living that you both enjoy. You need to work on WHY you are so insecure about his travel without you. You need to work on you and when your husband no longer feels pressured by you, I promise he will not lie to you about travel. He only does it because he knows how you feel.
Author lonelyandfrustrated Posted September 28, 2008 Author Posted September 28, 2008 Simplycaroline, I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Thing is, my husband is a chronic liar. He learned a long time to lie to avoid unpleasant situations, and I just don't see that changing. He did it before I came along, he'll continue after I'm gone. His lack of character in not being able to be honest IS NOT MY FAULT. Has nothing to do with me whatsoever. It's not something that is in my power to change. And for the first six years we were together, he had a job that didn't require travel. Then he wanted to switch jobs, which I supported, but then he became interested in this one, which required travel. I told him that it would kill our marriage. He took the job anyway. What message is that supposed to send to me?
Oakley Posted September 28, 2008 Posted September 28, 2008 Lonely, I'm going to play devil's advocate here, as someone who has worked in the wireless/cell phone business for fifteen years. Maybe it will shed some insight, maybe not, but it might give you something to think about.... Just because a call "originates" from a certain town on a cell bill, it does not necessarily mean that the cell phone was in that town when the call was made. It is simply a record of which site, or tower, handled the connection. Sometimes calls bounce around to different towers before they are connected, and it's VERY common for nearby sites to pick them up. Sites are often named for the town they are closest to, which can be confusing to customers when they read their bill. Now, if the calls were originating from a town or city hundreds of miles away, I'd be thinking the same things you are, but the next town over? I wouldn't exactly consider that a smoking gun, and he very well could be telling the truth... Best of luck to you. Please read and re-read Simplycaroline's post, she's spot on IMO.
Author lonelyandfrustrated Posted September 28, 2008 Author Posted September 28, 2008 Oakley, I get that and I called our provider about it. The answer I got was similar to what you said, I know that calls originate from whatever tower is the closest, and if that tower can't connect the call, it gets pinged to another tower. I even went so far as to go online and site the towers around the locations in question. The rep I spoke with said that it was 'highly unlikely' that a call would be pinged to a different town, and on the work one, it would have been pinged off of a dozen towers before it jumped to the next town. I have read simplycaroline's post several times, and I get what she's saying. Me and H have been discussing this...our biggest obstacle seems to be that what I perceive as lies, he thinks are 'no big deal'. He doesn't believe that it's possible to 'lie by omission', and he believes that if he tells me one thing and then does another, I should just suck it up as him 'changing his mind without telling me'. He doesn't get that continuing to do that feeds my insecurity in being able to believe what he tells me. He eroded the trust by outright lies he's told me, but he doesn't want to do the work needed to rebuild trust. He's said that he tells me these 'little white lies' because it's easier for him to avoid the conflict from the outset, and he just goes about his business hoping that I won't find out. He'll deal with it if I find out about something. What I'm trying to get through to him is that if he'll be honest with me from the outset, there won't be conflict because there won't be the questions in my mind if he's telling me the truth. I'll be able to trust him. If he called me up and said, "Hey, I'm going to stop by so-and-so's and have a beer. Be home at 7." there wouldn't be conflict. But what I get is, "Hey, I've got to work until 7 tonight." or "I'm going to swing by so-and-so's and drop off [whatever] and head straight home." I only find out that he's over there having a beer when he doesn't come home, or I call his work and he's left for the day. Not a good way to repair trust, ya know? Just tell me the freaking truth! I refuse to believe that I am the cause of his lying, and I don't believe it is something that I can change on my own. He has to do that. This can't be repaired until he decides that he will tell the truth. He doesn't even give me the chance to show him that I am reasonable and can trust him; if he perceives a potential conflict, his instinct is to lie. I can't change what goes on his head.
SingleDad Posted September 28, 2008 Posted September 28, 2008 Lonely, I'm going to play devil's advocate here, as someone who has worked in the wireless/cell phone business for fifteen years. Oakley - This is a long shot - but What city do you work in in the Cell Phone industry ?
Simplycaroline Posted September 28, 2008 Posted September 28, 2008 Simplycaroline, I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Thing is, my husband is a chronic liar. He learned a long time to lie to avoid unpleasant situations, and I just don't see that changing. He did it before I came along, he'll continue after I'm gone. His lack of character in not being able to be honest IS NOT MY FAULT. Has nothing to do with me whatsoever. It's not something that is in my power to change. And for the first six years we were together, he had a job that didn't require travel. Then he wanted to switch jobs, which I supported, but then he became interested in this one, which required travel. I told him that it would kill our marriage. He took the job anyway. What message is that supposed to send to me? You are right. You are not responsible for his lying. We all do it and anyone that says that they do not is telling a big lie to themselves and the world at large. I lie on a regular basis to people who I feel pressure me into situations that I am terribly uncomfortable with because they make telling them the truth hard work. You can say that this is not their responsibility and all mine and that is fine with me. The cold hard fact of the matter is that we ALL play a role in the lives of the people we interact with and NONE of us is above avoiding unstable, uncomfortable and just plain overblown situations filled with conflict and unnecessary drama by either lying or avoiding it all together. Particularly when you KNOW that there is going to be pouting, fighting and manipulative foot work ahead. It gets old and tiresome. So what he had a job that did not require travel at the time but he changed and now he does. You seem to have difficultly dealing with your core issues concerning why you hate his traveling and until you do you are going to have problems. Are you are all concerned about how your husband feels or his happiness because all I keep seeing in your post is you talking about you and your own feelings and views. Is he a good father? Provider? Is he being faithful? If you have been cheated on before by someone else do not hold him responsible making him pay for a crime that he did not committ. If you are not careful you are going to have a partner that seeks what he can not get from you elsewhere. I have seen this happen very often. This is something that can be gotten through provided that you are honest with yourself first. From what I gather from the way that you post you are not taking any responsibility for your own actions or reactions. Will you be happy if he finally says what you dread? I am leaving you because I am unhappy? I found someone else? If this is your fear you are dragging yourself straight to it kicking and screaming.
Simplycaroline Posted September 28, 2008 Posted September 28, 2008 Chances are when you deal with your problems concerning his travel which is simply put is about the fact that you do not trust him either he will be happy to have you travel with him and may not even feel the need to travel. Stop placing him in this position. You can keep lying to yourself and saying that it is all him if you want but the risk is your marriage and your childrens happiness.
Author lonelyandfrustrated Posted September 28, 2008 Author Posted September 28, 2008 Simplycaroline, thank you again for engaging and not being afraid to give it to me hard. I am concerned about my H's feelings and happiness. BUT...I'm not willing to forsake my own, ya know? The issue of the travel was negotiated, and renegotiated after he went back on his word from the first negotiation. Look, what I'm dealing with here is someone who says one thing and does another. I feel that for me to just 'let it go' will teach him that he doesn't have to back up his words with actions. That he can just run ramshod over me and I'll just sit here with a smile on my face and say, "Oh well. Men! Tee-hee-hee." As far as the lying...it's one thing to tell collections that the check is in the mail, another to tell your spouse that you're in one location when truthfully, you're somewhere else. Agreed? Perhaps I value honesty more than you do, more than my husband does. That's fine. I don't expect everyone to adhere to MY personal values. I haven't had trust issues with past relationships. I suppose that's because I differentiate between 'boyfriend' and 'husband', and hold different standards for each role. I don't know if I should, I just do. My H and I did pre-marital counseling before we got married; it's a second for both of us, and seemed like a good thing to do to set us up for success. (fwiw, my 1st M ended because of abuse, his 1st ended because of trust) But all the boundaries and issues that we worked out then...really, now, it was wasted time. I do own my share of the problems. I have a 'trust, but verify' attitude toward him now, and he hates that. I jump to conclusions. I feel the need to air my every concern. I ask too many questions and I trust my instinct (to read body language, to pick up 'I'm lying!' cues in language) more than I trust ANYTHING. These are the things I'm working on changing, or at the very least, "toning down". I don't feel as though I'm placing him in any position. He put himself in a position. If he leaves me, that's his choice. If I leave him, it's mine. I'm not going to accept less than what WE AGREED UPON, and the things we've re-negotiated over the years, out of fear of being left. I'm not scared. If he cheats...he has a serious lack of character. Not my problem, has nothing to do with me. I could neither cause or prevent him from doing something like that.
Oakley Posted September 28, 2008 Posted September 28, 2008 Oakley - This is a long shot - but What city do you work in in the Cell Phone industry ? Apologies to the OP for t/j I'm in the western US
Simplycaroline Posted September 28, 2008 Posted September 28, 2008 Simplycaroline, thank you again for engaging and not being afraid to give it to me hard. I am concerned about my H's feelings and happiness. BUT...I'm not willing to forsake my own, ya know? The issue of the travel was negotiated, and renegotiated after he went back on his word from the first negotiation. Look, what I'm dealing with here is someone who says one thing and does another. I feel that for me to just 'let it go' will teach him that he doesn't have to back up his words with actions. That he can just run ramshod over me and I'll just sit here with a smile on my face and say, "Oh well. Men! Tee-hee-hee." As far as the lying...it's one thing to tell collections that the check is in the mail, another to tell your spouse that you're in one location when truthfully, you're somewhere else. Agreed? Perhaps I value honesty more than you do, more than my husband does. That's fine. I don't expect everyone to adhere to MY personal values. I haven't had trust issues with past relationships. I suppose that's because I differentiate between 'boyfriend' and 'husband', and hold different standards for each role. I don't know if I should, I just do. My H and I did pre-marital counseling before we got married; it's a second for both of us, and seemed like a good thing to do to set us up for success. (fwiw, my 1st M ended because of abuse, his 1st ended because of trust) But all the boundaries and issues that we worked out then...really, now, it was wasted time. I do own my share of the problems. I have a 'trust, but verify' attitude toward him now, and he hates that. I jump to conclusions. I feel the need to air my every concern. I ask too many questions and I trust my instinct (to read body language, to pick up 'I'm lying!' cues in language) more than I trust ANYTHING. These are the things I'm working on changing, or at the very least, "toning down". I don't feel as though I'm placing him in any position. He put himself in a position. If he leaves me, that's his choice. If I leave him, it's mine. I'm not going to accept less than what WE AGREED UPON, and the things we've re-negotiated over the years, out of fear of being left. I'm not scared. If he cheats...he has a serious lack of character. Not my problem, has nothing to do with me. I could neither cause or prevent him from doing something like that. Good luck to you and yours. You are right if he leaves you or you him it is your concern. I was not trying to give you a hard time really I wasn't. I am not into those kind of games.
Author lonelyandfrustrated Posted September 28, 2008 Author Posted September 28, 2008 Good luck to you and yours. You are right if he leaves you or you him it is your concern. I was not trying to give you a hard time really I wasn't. I am not into those kind of games. WHAT?!? That's it? Where's my Sweet Caroline with the Hard Line Advice? I pour my heart out to you people and get no respect... Thanks again.
Simplycaroline Posted September 28, 2008 Posted September 28, 2008 WHAT?!? That's it? Where's my Sweet Caroline with the Hard Line Advice? I pour my heart out to you people and get no respect... Thanks again. No problem. I can not believe that I am even awake.
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