jen's mind Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 I'm in a new relationship (about three months) and trying to sort out a few things. While we have tremendous sexual chemistry, in terms of attraction and 'spark', he and I differ in our approach to sex. Most significantly, he does not enjoy kissing and therefore kissing is not a part of our sexual encounters. Kissing is a huge turn-on for me and always has been. I'm concerned that this is a big problem with our sexual compatibility, and that because it's so fundamental, it's not likely to change. We do have a good level of communication, but I'm wondering if this is enough to overcome the compatibility problem. I have spoken to him about how important kissing is to me, and he'll try, but honestly and as hard as it is for me to comprehend, I just don't think it does anything for him at all. Also, he told me that I'm not the first person to "complain" about that to him, at which point I asserted that I was not complaining about him but just sharing my own needs and what turns me on. He clearly enjoys sex with me, but I've been giving a lot more than I'm getting out of it, so to speak. Any thoughts on whether communication can win out over compatibility when it comes to sex? We have such a strong attraction, but he's not living up to it in bed.
Legend Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 It completely depends on the kind of sex you want to have. Sex fits into all the above categories.
Ruby Slippers Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Wow, I can understand why this bothers you. In Pretty Woman, she won't kiss her johns because that's the one thing that's too intimate. A friend told me his ex-boss once said, when commenting on something that was missing, "It's like f---ing without kissing!" For me, kissing is an inextricable part of sex, and certainly making love. I don't know what to tell you. I don't think I could do without lots of kissing!
Ruby Slippers Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Do you think he has problems with intimacy? http://www.coping.org/relations/intimacy.htm
Author jen's mind Posted September 16, 2008 Author Posted September 16, 2008 Yeah, I'm acutely aware that this could indicate an intimacy issue on his part. I'm bothered by this enough to have done a bunch of internet searches on 'doesn't enjoy kissing' and such to try to understand it. One site I found said that "Sex without kissing is always sex with the wrong one. Purely physical!" I'm really wondering if I should take what seems to be a significant sexual compatibility problem as a sign (or perhaps a frying pan over the head) that we simply do not belong together.
carhill Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 OP, are you otherwise compatible? By that I mean emotional and communication styles, energy levels, values systems, etc.... Do your frequency and pattern of sex synch? If he kissed you more, in and out of bed, would things be "perfect"?
Author jen's mind Posted September 16, 2008 Author Posted September 16, 2008 OP, are you otherwise compatible? By that I mean emotional and communication styles, energy levels, values systems, etc.... Do your frequency and pattern of sex synch? If he kissed you more, in and out of bed, would things be "perfect"? Uhhhh... Yes to the frequency and pattern of sex. If he kissed me more, in and out of bed, I would enjoy sex more and would be able to enjoy him more. I don't have any illusions about perfection, but I do value kissing as an exchange of souls and a key element of intimacy. In the pure, dictionary definition of compatibility (capable of existing or living together in harmony) we are compatible. Your question is very deep, Carhill. Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'emotional and communication styles'? He and I are very different people, without a doubt, but I'm interested in looking at it from the perspective you shared.
carhill Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Emotional styles - processing stimulus at the emotional level and intrinsic response pattern. Communication of emotion. Empathic and caring responses. Communication styles - Verbal and physical communication. Voice tone and body language. I'll give you an example of disparate styles from an example I used in therapy yesterday... "Hon, I'm heading out to the shop; can you please close the windows in the bedroom?" Response..wife is reading on computer....none. "Hon, did you hear me?" Response- "yes". I come in 30 minutes later....she's still at computer, so I go about my business. Later, before we leave, I, in typical fashion of someone with a more sensitive nervous system, know that I need to check the windows. Still open. Close windows. Ask wife "Hon, you didn't close the windows. Why not?" Answer.... "I was reading; all I heard was bla, bla, bla windows. Sorry about that." EOS This is typical of our disparate communication and emotional styles. I'm engaged, she's disengaged. She's not a bad person; I'm not a bad person. We're just different. Psychologist has suggested we no longer will benefit from therapy and need to decide whether to continue M or not. I saw signs of this behavior when we were dating, but my emotional response pattern compelled me to compensate for it and dismiss it. Bad choice. Typically, the gender roles are reversed and women are the ones who complain about having to "nag" their S/O's, IOW they are the engagers trying to reach the man. In our case, it's the reverse. Women, generally, are better equipped psychologically for this task, though interest/tolerance varies. As a man, I find such disengagement and detachment to be disrespectful and emotionally painful. Therapy has helped mitigate that perspective somewhat, teaching greater acceptance, but it still wears upon me. Another example: Wife cannot feel emotional close without sex. Up until recently, we had sex regularly, though likely not as often as she would like. She hasn't been emotionally "close" to me in years, even when having sex. I still did it anyway. Hope springs eternal. So, we have a conundrum. I do not have sexual interest without an emotional connection (that's my intrinsic psychology) and she can't have an emotional connection without sex (so she says). I give her sex, as I did for a long time, without feeling emotionally close, such sucks the life out of me, as it has. I tried to tell her that emotion is 24/7 and sex is just a small part of that but deaf ears resulted. That was about the time the psychologist started talking about taking a hard look at reality and the M continuing. No epiphanies here but hopefully you can take something away from it that is worthwhile. We each have our own paths to lead. I'm with you. Kissing means a lot to me
Author jen's mind Posted September 16, 2008 Author Posted September 16, 2008 Thanks for the helpful elaboration, Carhill. Sorry to hear that you're efforts in therapy have revealed things that can't be changed. I appreciate you sharing your hard-earned insight. I think my boyfriend's and my communication styles are compatible. It might be a bit early in the relationship to accurately judge our emotional compatibility. We are similarly engaged with one another, I think, but honestly I think the lack of kissing is a barrier to our emotional closeness.
carhill Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 We are similarly engaged with one another, I think, but honestly I think the lack of kissing is a barrier to our emotional closeness. This is interesting. Why? I'll bet it will be somewhat difficult to explain cogently...... but, oddly, I know exactly what you mean. I tended to sense distance with my wife, when kissing, always dismissing it as me being "weird", but cumulative events and therapy have shown me my instincts years ago were in fact correct. I provided some examples of this phenomenon in therapy to give insight into my psychology. For me, it was like a "connection" was missing. Oh, how is your BF with non-sexual physical affection? If he shuns kissing, wow, that kills a whole bunch of paths there... Just occurred....does he think he has bad breath or something? Or maybe he did have sinus or dental issues in the past and has recurring memories or inhibitions as a result? Anyway, since you have good communication, it never hurts to talk about it. I wish my wife would talk with me about such things more often
vonerik012 Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 As for myself, the more I am into a woman, the more I want to kiss her..
Capricciosa Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 You know, as in everything, people will have different tastes/needs. There are probably sexual things that he wants to do that are not as pleasurable for you, but you might do them so he could enjoy them, sort of a cooperative and self-less act. He could do the same with kissing. He can do it for you, because you need it, and who knows it might grow on him. Now that would be communication, compatibility, and generosity in action. If he won't, on the other hand, dump him.
Author jen's mind Posted September 16, 2008 Author Posted September 16, 2008 It's definitely not a bad breath or other hygiene issue, and nothing relating to anything physical. He's actually a great kisser, which only makes things worse because it makes me long to kiss him even more. We have talked about it some, but he does have a difficult time discussing it. The most I've gotten out of him was the admission that I'm "not the first person to tell [him] this." So, I'm inferring that this has been an issue in his past relationships, and I feel like that's impeding our ability to talk about it; perhaps he's harboring some defensiveness about it. Frankly, I was dismayed to hear that this isn't a new/unique issue; that makes it more of a chronic problem, right? Kissing is a gateway to the soul. Can you be truly connected with someone without kissing? Is is too early to worry about this, or am I setting myself up for inevitable disappointment? Am I being unrealistic with my expectations of intimacy/closeness at this early stage of our relationship?
Ruby Slippers Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 ...but honestly I think the lack of kissing is a barrier to our emotional closeness. No doubt. I have to say I think this would be a deal-breaker for me. If he weren't willing to do something as basic as KISS me (!!), I would have to let him go. We have talked about it some, but he does have a difficult time discussing it. The most I've gotten out of him was the admission that I'm "not the first person to tell [him] this." So, I'm inferring that this has been an issue in his past relationships, and I feel like that's impeding our ability to talk about it; perhaps he's harboring some defensiveness about it. Frankly, I was dismayed to hear that this isn't a new/unique issue; that makes it more of a chronic problem, right? That suggests to me it's more than just not liking it on his part -- that is, fear of intimacy, or something deeper. Is is too early to worry about this, or am I setting myself up for inevitable disappointment? Am I being unrealistic with my expectations of intimacy/closeness at this early stage of our relationship? No! If it's early enough to have sex, it's sure as hell early enough to kiss, and to worry about its absence! I think it's great that you're dealing with this now, rather than later.
electric_sheep Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 To me kissing is damn near crucial. I can't even imagine not wanting to kiss your SO. I hate to say it, but the only times in my life when I havn't had an interest in kissing, it reflected a more general lack of interest in sex with the person. It's possible though, that with the abundance of internet porn and such, that this may simply be the way he LEARNED to have sex. It might be something that is caught up with some sort of idea of masculinity and machismo.
Author jen's mind Posted September 17, 2008 Author Posted September 17, 2008 Do you think he has problems with intimacy? http://www.coping.org/relations/intimacy.htm Thanks so much for this link, Ruby. It really clarifies the intimacy issue. Maybe I should try to break it down with him and talk about intimacy specifically (using that page as a basis for the conversation.) Maybe it will be more productive than limiting the discussion to kissing. I'm inclined to make that attempt to get some shared understanding before calling it quits. What an absolute bummer.
electric_sheep Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Just out of curiosity, does he do anything that sort of takes the place of kissing? Does he hold your hand? Snuggle? If he does none of these things, I'd personally find that hard to deal with. I'm kind of a touchy person, particularly in the beginning stages of a relationship. If he doesn't do any of these things, and seems to only be interested in sex, I'd be suspicious that it might be due to some male "identity" thing. That is, he might have deep seating ideas about what it means to be a man, and these ideas don't include showing affection to others. This might be what everybody else here seems to be referring to when they say "intimacy problems". He might be the strong but distant "type", like out of a 50's Humprey Bogart movie or something. Or a gangster-rap video.
Author jen's mind Posted September 17, 2008 Author Posted September 17, 2008 It's possible though, that with the abundance of internet porn and such, that this may simply be the way he LEARNED to have sex. It might be something that is caught up with some sort of idea of masculinity and machismo. Ahhh, you've definitely hit upon something here. Three points: 1.) He came of age in one of the toughest neighborhoods in Queens, NY where masculinity and machismo are keys to male survival. Literally. 2.) He has a long history in the hip-hop industry. The real deal, heavy hitters are his "friends." Hip-hop is ALL masculinity and machismo. And misogyny, for that matter. (don't get me started on hip-hop) 3.) He has said, on more than one occasion, that people are inclined to "take my kindness for a weakness." Now, he's not a crazed urban-misogynist-thug. He was born in Europe and moved to NY when he was 15 (a tough age to move into a drug-infested urban neighborhood; losing his accent was his first survival mission.) He grew up loved by two parents who've been together for 40 years, and three brothers with whom he speaks on nearly a daily basis. He's a talented, driven graphic artist who, like many artists, tends to live in his own head and generally keeps to himself. In keeping to himself, porn has definitely played its part in his life. He is very visual, which is a guy thing in general but is also very much fueled by porn. I have noted that his detachment during sex, the lack of kissing, is very similar to what you'd see in porn.
Author jen's mind Posted September 17, 2008 Author Posted September 17, 2008 Just out of curiosity, does he do anything that sort of takes the place of kissing? Does he hold your hand? Snuggle? If he doesn't do any of these things, and seems to only be interested in sex, I'd be suspicious that it might be due to some male "identity" thing. That is, he might have deep seating ideas about what it means to be a man, and these ideas don't include showing affection to others. This might be what everybody else here seems to be referring to when they say "intimacy problems". He might be the strong but distant "type", like out of a 50's Humprey Bogart movie or something. Or a gangster-rap video. He does hold my hand, in public and in private. He enjoys spooning on the couch and watching movies. He does give real, connected hugs, but doesn't initiate them. He does not snuggle after sex at all. In fact, I've commented on how it's like he flicks a switch and moves on to the next thing. Again, I think you're onto something here.
carhill Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 He does give real, connected hugs, but doesn't initiate them. He does not snuggle after sex at all. In fact, I've commented on how it's like he flicks a switch and moves on to the next thing. Sounds like my wife. Coping mechanism to deal with very difficult childhood.
Ruby Slippers Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 He does not snuggle after sex at all. The first few times I had sex with my recent ex, he would jump out of bed right after sex and go get us water, make us drinks, whatever. He's a restless person and always has more energy than he knows what to do with, but no cuddling after sex was NOT OK with me! I talked to him about it, and he immediately responded and started cuddling after sex. Eventually, once I felt more secure in the relationship, I would sometimes get up soon after sex, but by then he had grown fond of the cuddling and would pull me back into bed! hehe Then he'd tell me I'd "turned him into a little bitch". I took a really cool Philosophy of Science class in college, and we read a few books on evolutionary psychology, or how human behavior is rooted in evolutionary stable strategy. To females, cuddling after sex suggests a loyal mate who wants to protect his woman after "mating", to keep her and the potential offspring they just created safe from lions and tigers and bears, you know. It strikes a deep chord in the female psyche and communicates that he is a strong, loyal, and highly attractive mate, protector, and provider. These feelings are critical to healthy pair bonding and long-term attachment, from the female POV. It could be seen as a good sign that this is just the way he is and has been socialized. It means the behavior has nothing to do with his feelings for you, and he can hopefully adapt to meet your emotional needs -- provided it's not too intensely ingrained and he is willing to adapt, that is.
Author jen's mind Posted September 17, 2008 Author Posted September 17, 2008 It could be seen as a good sign that this is just the way he is and has been socialized. It means the behavior has nothing to do with his feelings for you, and he can hopefully adapt to meet your emotional needs -- provided it's not too intensely ingrained and he is willing to adapt, that is. At first I thought it did reflect his feelings for me, but based upon the conversations I've had with him I don't believe it does. I believe he truly respects, enjoys and is attracted to me. That doesn't, however, make the situation any better. We are talking about the way he is. If this is the way he is, then it seems ludicrous for me to expect him to "adapt." I do think that in many aspects of intimacy he is utterly clueless. I asked him last week if he thought we could try having sex without f***ing, and he said, with complete sincerity, "how would we do that?" He's very sensitive to the idea of someone trying to change him. We had a misunderstanding a few weeks ago in which he asserted that he's not going to let anyone try to change him, that his father always warned him against people (I read that as women) who would try to change him. We got through that episode pretty quickly, but not without my continuous assertion that I was not trying to change him but simply share my feelings with him. I believe that it is unhealthy to expect to change someone, and unfair to demand that someone change. I'm just trying to sort out what I can reasonably expect to receive from him in terms of intimacy as our relationship evolves. I know that I long to just make out with him, and I can't imagine a long-term relationship without kissing. I guess I have some doubts about dealing with all the issues that this clearly encompasses, but I'm trying to see if there's any hope worth clinging to.
Ruby Slippers Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 I'm just trying to sort out what I can reasonably expect to receive from him in terms of intimacy as our relationship evolves. I know that I long to just make out with him' date=' and I can't imagine a long-term relationship without kissing.[/quote'] Yeah, I think almost everyone would agree that the expectation of kissing is perfectly reasonable. Asking your man to meet a very reasonable emotional need is not asking him to change. It's asking him to change his behavior. He's free to say no. Then you're free to decide whether you're OK not having that need met. I do think that in many aspects of intimacy he is utterly clueless. I asked him last week if he thought we could try having sex without f***ing, and he said, with complete sincerity, "how would we do that?" In speaking with my counselor recently and trying to decide whether or not to break up with my boyfriend, she asked me about sex (one of the areas we had no problems at all). She said in her view, most healthy relationships have a good balance of each of these three: 1. f---king: slam bam, sweaty, raw, lusty 2. sex: after you've been together a while, though you might be tired or distracted, you still get it on because you want to keep the sexual connection going 3. making love: the physical and sexual expression of love, emotions, and intimacy IMO, without #3, you're basically looking at friends with benefits.
norajane Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 You said he's a great kisser...so he does kiss you sometimes? What are those times? Perhaps you can think about the circumstances when he is comfortable kissing you, and try to make those things happen more often so he gets more used to doing it. Also, you said something about you giving more than he does during sex. What do you mean?
Author jen's mind Posted September 17, 2008 Author Posted September 17, 2008 Yeah, I think almost everyone would agree that the expectation of kissing is perfectly reasonable. Asking your man to meet a very reasonable emotional need is not asking him to change. It's asking him to change his behavior. He's free to say no. Then you're free to decide whether you're OK not having that need met. That is a helpful distinction. In speaking with my counselor recently and trying to decide whether or not to break up with my boyfriend, she asked me about sex (one of the areas we had no problems at all). She said in her view, most healthy relationships have a good balance of each of these three: 1. f---king: slam bam, sweaty, raw, lusty 2. sex: after you've been together a while, though you might be tired or distracted, you still get it on because you want to keep the sexual connection going 3. making love: the physical and sexual expression of love, emotions, and intimacy IMO, without #3, you're basically looking at friends with benefits. Maybe this is illustrating the downside of having sex early in the relationship? We are barely three months into this. Can we "make love" without yet knowing, let alone establishing, that we're in love?
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