Men should pay for dates meals.

[Tomcat33]

Listen what is the big deal here?

 

If you were running a business and you were trying to win over some new business wouldn't you invite a client out to dinner to win them over? Or wouldn't you ivite them out to some drinks at a swanky new hot spot to disucuss busniess? And if so would you ask them to pay at the end of the evening? Dinners drinks and general outings are always used in social transactions to win people over, it's the way of the world and every single social transaction pretty much starts with a coffee or a drink.

 

Well a man that invites a woman out is trying to win her over, because you know what? if he doesn't another man will and that's the truth.

 

Walk maybe in your experience your options were limited as a single woman and you felt the need to win men over by paying for them. I don't have or feel that need, I will give of myself completely when a man has won my heart. Why?

 

Because I can! ;-)

[Stockalone]

I had never thought about it, whether I should be the one who pays or not.

 

When I ask out a woman, I do so because I am very interested and want to get to know her.

 

It is a sign of courtesy but I also think it is only fair that I am the one who should pay given that I am the one who asked. However, I don’t think I would let a woman pay for me if she asked me out. That just doesn’t seem right. At least during the courtship. In an exclusive relationship, splitting the bill or picking up the check in turns used to be the norm for me.

 

As far as women are concerned who insist on paying their share on a first date, I agree with the guys who said that this is a sign of them not looking for a second date and thus wanting to pay their share because they aren’t interested and don’t want to lead me on or use me as a meal ticket. If they offer to pay, I do appreciate the gesture, but I will still pay.

 

I guess I am far too much entangled with the whole gender role thinking. And it’s also fair to say that I put a higher value on her time and company than I do on mine. But like Tomcat said, we value the things that don’t come easy to us. In my case, a date with a women I would really like to get to know certainly fits that bill.

 

For me, dating means that I try (and hopefully succeed) to make the date worthwile for the woman I asked out. Getting to know what she enjoys, who she is. To learn if we have shared interests.

 

Putting time, effort and thought, as well as some money, towards that goal seems hardly like something to think twice about. I mean, I wouldn’t invite my friends to a party and then offer them only bottled water and a piece of dry bread and charge them for it when they leave.

 

On the other hand, I won’t plan to do stuff on a date that I wouldn’t enjoy doing by myself. There will be no fancy dinners were I spend hundreds of dollars (or in my case euros).

 

But I never dated much, and the casual dating thing was never something for me either. So the money I spend on dates was never a problem. I had spend that money freely and that was it.

 

I can see though, how it would be annoying to be seen as a meal ticket when a woman accepts dates where she has little interest in getting to know the guy. I haven’t dated in a long time, so I can’t say if this has become more prevalent. I would hope not.

 

But in that scenario, I would not really worry about the money I spend, I would be more bothered by the time and effort I “wasted”.

 

The only times where I felt like I wasted my time, was with women who also dated other guys. As much as I want to make the woman I date feel special and consider it a matter of courtesy to pay for the date, I would like, no, I expect her undivided attention. Not because I pay but because I want to receive the same thing I offer.

[Tomcat33]

 

(Why do I get the feeling I'm trying to explain human mating rituals to an alien from another galaxy??)

 

 

Because you ARE. :laugh:

 

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I haven't been out with "bazillions" of men. And I've always lived in the South. So maybe my theory is a Southern thing instead of a guy thing... and guys think differently in other geographic locations. Who knows.

 

Anyway, this has been my experience, fwiw.

 

It's been my experience as well and I don't live in the South...

[Walk]

Y'know, Mrs. Walk, since you're expending so much energy trying to convince us "modern feminists" that we're contradicting ourselves in our expectations of equal rights and being courted, you might want to broaden your audience to also persuade those bazillions of men out there who wouldn't DREAM of letting their date pay for the meal.

 

I've always offered to help pay for the meal on dates. And I've yet to be taken up on it. To a fault, every guy I've been out with has insisted on paying for it. It's a guy thing! They want to be able to take the credit for the delight I take in the meal, the restaurant, the evening. It's one of their ways of convincing me to start pourin' some sugar on them.:D That's what the mating dance is all about! The female has to be "won over" to his way of thinking.

 

And if they can't afford to take me out on the town, they invite me to their place for a home-cooked meal. (Which is A-OK in my book!) Same thing - their way of trying to impress me, convince me they're worthy of mating with.

 

But the difference in how you explain it is that you

A.) are willing to pay for the date but you defer to the man.

B.) You appreciate that he paid.

C.) You don't immediately label him a loser if he can't afford it.

D.) You haven't said you expect him to pay.

 

Some of the women posting in here shed it in such a light as though their entertainment and meals better damn well be paid for! or else. And they will absolutely NOT pull out their wallets to even offer to pay because they demand he pays.

[Walk]

Walk maybe in your experience your options were limited as a single woman and you felt the need to win men over by paying for them. I don't have or feel that need, I will give of myself completely when a man has won my heart. Why?

Why the need to slam me Tomcat.

 

Tell you what.. this is the last slam you get on me. Stop from this point forward.

 

You do not deserve a response to this insult. Thanks for playing though.

[Tomcat33]

I had never thought about it, whether I should be the one who pays or not.

 

When I ask out a woman, I do so because I am very interested and want to get to know her.

 

It is a sign of courtesy but I also think it is only fair that I am the one who should pay given that I am the one who asked. However, I don’t think I would let a woman pay for me if she asked me out. That just doesn’t seem right. At least during the courtship. In an exclusive relationship, splitting the bill or picking up the check in turns used to be the norm for me.

 

As far as women are concerned who insist on paying their share on a first date, I agree with the guys who said that this is a sign of them not looking for a second date and thus wanting to pay their share because they aren’t interested and don’t want to lead me on or use me as a meal ticket. If they offer to pay, I do appreciate the gesture, but I will still pay.

 

I guess I am far too much entangled with the whole gender role thinking. And it’s also fair to say that I put a higher value on her time and company than I do on mine. But like Tomcat said, we value the things that don’t come easy to us. In my case, a date with a women I would really like to get to know certainly fits that bill.

 

For me, dating means that I try (and hopefully succeed) to make the date worthwile for the woman I asked out. Getting to know what she enjoys, who she is. To learn if we have shared interests.

 

Putting time, effort and thought, as well as some money, towards that goal seems hardly like something to think twice about. I mean, I wouldn’t invite my friends to a party and then offer them only bottled water and a piece of dry bread and charge them for it when they leave.

 

On the other hand, I won’t plan to do stuff on a date that I wouldn’t enjoy doing by myself. There will be no fancy dinners were I spend hundreds of dollars (or in my case euros).

 

But I never dated much, and the casual dating thing was never something for me either. So the money I spend on dates was never a problem. I had spend that money freely and that was it.

 

I can see though, how it would be annoying to be seen as a meal ticket when a woman accepts dates where she has little interest in getting to know the guy. I haven’t dated in a long time, so I can’t say if this has become more prevalent. I would hope not.

 

But in that scenario, I would not really worry about the money I spend, I would be more bothered by the time and effort I “wasted”.

 

The only times where I felt like I wasted my time, was with women who also dated other guys. As much as I want to make the woman I date feel special and consider it a matter of courtesy to pay for the date, I would like, no, I expect her undivided attention. Not because I pay but because I want to receive the same thing I offer.

 

Spoken like a guy who truly GETS IT, well done Stock!

 

 

Here is my theory, men are not stupid the ones that are, are going to be taken advantage of by women regardless. The ones that are smart do not waste their time and money on women that are just after a meal ticket they catch on and they don't need directions. After one date, heck after one hour of conversation, you can usually tell what you are dealing with.

 

I think what you said is BANG ON! I would be way more frustrated at the thought of having wasted all that time than to waste all the money.

 

See you're smart you don't do extravagant things on a first date why should you? You don't love this woman, you don't even know if you want to spend another evening out again in one date so you play smart you are proactive in setting the tone of what you are willing and are not willing to do. And I totally respect that!

 

But like in STarGazer's case where some idiot invites you out to a $300 dinner and expects you to pay because HE chose this outing I say "faaackaffff" I don't know why she agreed to a date like that but that's another story....

[High Plains Drifter]

If I ask a woman out, then I expect to pay. If she volunteers to pay her half, then I don't get all twisted up about it.

 

What's the big deal here?

 

Is someone needing to take a loan out to buy Burgers at Sonic?

[Tomcat33]

Is someone needing to take a loan out to buy Burgers at Sonic?

 

 

:lmao:

 

 

For real!

[Dirk Diggler]

And this is precisely the reason why Tomcat and the rest of us single girls have to put our calculating skills to work. It's a matter of tactical survival!!

 

And this is also a good reason why we can't apply the same principles of equality in the workplace into our romantic lives. It's a totally different playing field. When I'm on a date, I'm not running for the Presidency, or applying to be CEO of a major corporation. I'm a WOMAN, and (hopefully, if it's a decent date!!) I'm being wooed by a MAN. A whole 'nother ball game... if you'll excuse the expression.

 

It's certainly your choice to view modern dating as a battlefield. Where as tactical skills would be better served in the bedroom once the relationship is established rather than treat dating like a matter of kill or be killed. Equality is equality, you cannot have it both ways. Guys take just as much risk in the dating game. So why is it that the guys need to ratchet up the investment on all levels until a pre-determined bell goes off in such a woman's head to signify she's met her meal quota and the ice around her purse has thawed enough to open it up and equally give back from that point forward. If not set the stage for selfishness in the relationship altogether.

[Dirk Diggler]

Maybe it's the generation of men I date (around 40), but I just don't get the sense they feel this kind of anger or resentment about it.

 

I don't have anger or resentment as such mentality of women needing to bank meals in order to gauge a mans interest via dating probation does not fit in with how my girlfriend and i are, or have been surrounding money. While we both are career invested, there has not been this attrition/manipulation or power struggle in order to show each of us was interested/committed etc. If it was a matter of flipping a coin and losing every time, i'd be fine with paying. I certainly don't consider it an issue. Knowing she had a great time and was invested enough have paid having lost a coin toss, would speak volumes of her character regardless of me paying each and every time if need be. Where as i find this shady method of banking meals in order to guard their heart (and wallet) is just excuses for a variety of past issues/failed relationships or present fears. To me it's not really going into it with a healthy attitude.

[OpenBook]

But the difference in how you explain it is that you

A.) are willing to pay for the date but you defer to the man.

B.) You appreciate that he paid.

C.) You don't immediately label him a loser if he can't afford it.

D.) You haven't said you expect him to pay.

 

Some of the women posting in here shed it in such a light as though their entertainment and meals better damn well be paid for! or else. And they will absolutely NOT pull out their wallets to even offer to pay because they demand he pays.

 

Look, the bottom line is I agree with them! I'm saying the exact same thing they are... maybe just presenting it a little more mildly, because I'm probably a lot older than they are! Ah, the vigor of youth...

 

The fact is, I WOULD find it odd - and a turnoff - if a guy asked me out and then expected me to help pay the tab.

 

And frankly I DO find it a bit puzzling as to why a happily (I'm assuming) married woman would argue so vehemently about this issue. Your initial premise was that since we expect equal treatment in the workplace, we should also start paying for our dates with men who are courting us. (Or maybe you meant we should actually start courting men?? Equal Pay For Equal - uh, Pursuing??) I'm not really sure where you're coming from, or what you're trying to accomplish.

 

But it sure has been fun arguing about it!!

[vonerik012]

In the hypothetical you presented, your friend isn't a guest. When someone asks you out on a date, you ARE their guest. You want to make your guest comfortable. You want to please them. Not ask or expect them to pay.

 

If you invite friends over for a small dinner party, do you show them the grocery bill reflecting the cost of the food you made for dinner and ask them to contribute?

 

Typically if I am invited to a dinner party, or party of any other sort, I will bring something. A bottle of wine, food, beer etc. I do not show up empty handed to another persons home. I am also not expecting anything.

 

And Stockalone even alludes to an element of control he feels by paying. He might say it is also time, etc, but it comes down to money as well. Men do not want to pay for women, and make them feel special if they are seeing several men. So when women break their end of the bargain by serial dating, why should men uphold their end of the traditional bargain, which is paying?

 

There are plenty of princesses out there whom will never sincerely want to contribute anything throughout the course of an entire relationship. They all start the exact same in the dating process.."the man must pay or he is a loser"

[Dirk Diggler]

Sure thing. When you have a daughter some day tell her not to calculate anything when it comes to dating men, tell her to just go with the flow, tell her to follow what she is feeling in the moment and to not manipulate men on a date, if she feels like having a boy's penis in her mouth at 15yrs of age she should GO FOR IT because refraining from doing so will be considered manipulation of some poor guy. And we don't want that.

 

Good luck with that all the best!

 

She wouldn't have to concoct all these calculating schemes to bank meals in order to bide time to run tests on their future love interests. Rather raise her with morals and enough self worth/esteem to be able to set boundaries so that in such a case she could be like a human switchblade and cut off such a dick from even entering her life let alone her mouth..I can't always be there in the moment, she'd have to do it for herself. I would be proud of that.

 

As for equality, i remember you were quite the heated spokes(woman) for that girl who sucked her husbands cock daily out of duty. Applying the same rules. How do you know he was not providing her with banked meals and luxuries for their many years of marriage in which she was happy with, and his return on the interest was she had to put a fresh coat of lacquer on the totem pole daily. Win win right? This is two people working the very same attitude of what meal banking comes from. Makes for selfish people in relationships like that. Now what you were saying about equality?

[Star Gazer]

Typically if I am invited to a dinner party, or party of any other sort, I will bring something. A bottle of wine, food, beer etc. I do not show up empty handed to another persons home. I am also not expecting anything.

 

You still didn't answer the question.

 

As a HOST, do you EXPECT your guests to contribute?

[goldencloud]

GOOD GRIEF! what is the big deal over here!

Yes yes, equality this, equality that, but goodness what is so WRONG about good old fashioned etiquette?! Must everything be analysed to the core...sometimes a man paying for a meal whilst on a date...is JUST a man paying for a meal whilst on a date...no grand philosophical argument about it! I think it's sweet, and personally it makes me feel special because...well because there are just some things in this world that just shouldnt be cast...yes times are evolving bla bla *insert lectures* but do we HAVE to get RID of every sweet courtesy?! must we become so cynical of a society that everything has a agenda...

naturally when you enter a relationship, it's differnet, depending on man, woman, finances etc..but thats' fiiineeeeeeeeee...and trust me unless you're 1000 %psycho analysing, it'll flow naturally!

with my last serious relationship, he insisted absolutely insisted on paying throughout our relationship, but at same time i wouldbake him cookies, organised his bday parties, did his laundry when he was really tired...and of course other spontaneous things...not because he EXPECTED me to do this, but because i WANTED to do this for him because at the time i LOVED him...same way i DIDNT expect him to pay for me most of the time, he did it because it made him happy...but with my second relationship, once we got into the flow of things, it was a pretty random thing, sometimes i pay, sometimes he pay..bla bla..who CARES...u love eachother that's the main thing, everything else just falls into place...BUT with both men they did make an effort when we were getting to know eachother, they were generous with their finances because they knew i was worth it...i certainly wasn't using them, good gosh! and at the same time i 100000 percent appreciated their efforts, and both were very satisfying and wonderful relationships

money=money...it means nothing, its the sentiment. if a guy pays 83838383 on me on first date but his aim is to get laid, what's the use...on the other hand if a guy pays for a meal at a cafe or whatever within his price range but with good intentions...good gosh, who am i to fight it?! haha

that's my 2 cents!

[vonerik012]

This is also quite humorous. To prove the point that a man should pay, women even use completely outdated language.., Now the man is "courting" you, and the 2 of you are not referred to as "dating" which would imply more equality.

 

Ladies, when you are talking to your girlfriends, do you say "So Jane, who is currently courting you". LOL That would be far too lady like for todays woman to actually speak like that.. The word courting is only used by women when justifying being really really cheap and having the man always pay.

 

SG, people with social grace typically bring something. I do not expect them to.

[carhill]

You still didn't answer the question.

 

As a HOST, do you EXPECT your guests to contribute?

Absolutely. I have a collection plate at the door. Gotta pay that mortgage!

 

Generally, for me, people who make it onto an invited personal guest list are people who are already significant in my life, like friends, family and established longtime customers. I relish being their host and take that role very seriously. Ask my wife, who only recently has gotten me to relax a bit more

 

Women I've dated in the past perhaps had the potential to become significant and I respected that potential and my desire for it by treating them to hopefully enjoyable social functions. The key is that I desired it, IMO. It wasn't expected or the competition didn't compel it. It was offered without reservation or expectation. From that positive standpoint, I was able to discern how a woman received my positive energy and returned it. IMO, starting from a defensive position is counter-productive. I might as well just call up a friend and go dutch

[OpenBook]

It's certainly your choice to view modern dating as a battlefield.

 

Honey, it's not just a battlefield - it's an absolute JUNGLE out there!! Like Vietnam Part Deux.

 

Where as tactical skills would be better served in the bedroom once the relationship is established rather than treat dating like a matter of kill or be killed.

 

Huh??!? I'm sorry to have to explain the obvious - but the normal, typical route to an established relationship IS through dating, until you find one you like!

 

So why is it that the guys need to ratchet up the investment on all levels until a pre-determined bell goes off in such a woman's head to signify she's met her meal quota and the ice around her purse has thawed enough to open it up and equally give back from that point forward.

 

Whoa! I've never encountered a guy like you. If a guy doesn't want to spend his money on me, he doesn't ask me out. It's never even brought up. End of story. Uhm... I'm flamboozled as to how to even respond to this.

 

I don't have anger or resentment as such mentality of women needing to bank meals in order to gauge a mans interest via dating probation...

 

Yes, I can see that.

 

... does not fit in with how my girlfriend and i are, or have been surrounding money. While we both are career invested, there has not been this attrition/manipulation or power struggle in order to show each of us was interested/committed etc. If it was a matter of flipping a coin and losing every time, i'd be fine with paying. I certainly don't consider it an issue. Knowing she had a great time and was invested enough have paid having lost a coin toss, would speak volumes of her character regardless of me paying each and every time if need be.

 

Well, good for you and your GF! But you're not in the dating stage anymore. The same posters in this thread who've said they wouldn't pay for the first few dates, also said they normally pitch in 50-50 once a steady relationship is established. Isn't that the same thing you're saying here, with your GF??

 

Where as i find this shady method of banking meals in order to guard their heart (and wallet) is just excuses for a variety of past issues/failed relationships or present fears. To me it's not really going into it with a healthy attitude.

 

Darlin', it's not our hearts or our wallets that we're actually guarding here.

[Tomcat33]

She wouldn't have to concoct all these calculating schemes to bank meals in order to bide time to run tests on their future love interests. Rather raise her with morals and enough self worth/esteem to be able to set boundaries so that in such a case she could be like a human switchblade and cut off such a dick from even entering her life let alone her mouth..I can't always be there in the moment, she'd have to do it for herself. I would be proud of that.

 

You are basically agreeing that women SHOULD calculate. If you would hope your daughter puts in to place all the values and lessons you taught her about sex and selfworth then essentially you are saying that you hope that she will STOP and think in the heat of the moment and when her sexual juices start flowing. We women can get quite randied after a long and hard make-out session and it doesn't really matter how great of an upbringing we had the choice still has to be made at 15, 25 or 45 "do I go with what I am feeling" or do I think this through and be smart about offering my sexuality to someone I barely know just because it feels good?

 

And it's comments like "I wouldn't date that slut after she gave it up to on the first date" that has put women into this calculative position to begin with.

 

SO until men are capable of seeing women as sexual beings with sexual needs and respecting us for that, you really have no right at all to tell us not to calculate how we interact with me. Cool?

 

As to the rest of your reference to scheming and calculating, I do nothing of the sort. A guy asks me out on the date, the extent of my "scheming and planning" is "should I wear the red dress or the black one and do I need a new pair of heels?" The rest falls into place naturally.

 

As for equality, i remember you were quite the heated spokes(woman) for that girl who sucked her husbands cock daily out of duty. Applying the same rules. How do you know he was not providing her with banked meals and luxuries for their many years of marriage in which she was happy with, and his return on the interest was she had to put a fresh coat of lacquer on the totem pole daily. Win win right? This is two people working the very same attitude of what meal banking comes from. Makes for selfish people in relationships like that. Now what you were saying about equality?

 

 

I was quite outraged with that topic because here insanity had nothing to do with her gender, and yet she was trying to tell ALL women that her level of insanity was the ROLE of a woman. Futhermore, had she been someone who demostrated that she had her life in order I may have been open to hearing her out, but when you start a thread with "I have have been tempted many times to cheat" but now I suck cock religiously because I know my place as a woman and so should you" it tells me she neither knows her place as a woman OR as a human being. That woman had 0 self respect and I didn't buy that she was "happy" for a second.

[OpenBook]

Absolutely. I have a collection plate at the door. Gotta pay that mortgage!

 

:lmao: Carhill you are too much!

 

Women I've dated in the past perhaps had the potential to become significant and I respected that potential and my desire for it by treating them to hopefully enjoyable social functions. The key is that I desired it, IMO. It wasn't expected or the competition didn't compel it. It was offered without reservation or expectation.

 

But I bet you had a lot of hope. And it is that hope which drives us all forward. It's the stuff life is made of!! :bunny:

 

From that positive standpoint, I was able to discern how a woman received my positive energy and returned it. IMO, starting from a defensive position is counter-productive. I might as well just call up a friend and go dutch

 

Amen!

[Stockalone]

Typically if I am invited to a dinner party, or party of any other sort, I will bring something. A bottle of wine, food, beer etc. I do not show up empty handed to another persons home. I am also not expecting anything.

 

Let's say you invite a woman you are dating to your home to cook for her, don't most of them bring a bottle of wine or a dessert?

 

 

And Stockalone even alludes to an element of control he feels by paying. He might say it is also time, etc, but it comes down to money as well. Men do not want to pay for women, and make them feel special if they are seeing several men. So when women break their end of the bargain by serial dating, why should men uphold their end of the traditional bargain, which is paying?

 

Yes, in the case of the women dating other guys, I have technically wasted the money along with my time. But I didn't regret the money I had spend, that wasn't a concern for me.

 

What I don't like about women dating other guys is that I don't date multiple women. Dating only one person at the time is, in my opinion, a sign of courtesy and respect. I consider dating multiple people to be disrespectful. So I am looking for a woman who feels the same way.

 

I can't prevent a woman from dating other guys, regardless if I pay for the date or not. Thus, I wouldn't call it an element of control.

[Lights]

what is the big deal over here!

Yes yes, equality this, equality that, but goodness what is so WRONG about good old fashioned etiquette?!

 

Because old-fashioned etiquette is old-fashioned and does not apply in the modern age, and equality is not old-fashioned and does apply in these times. If a woman wants equality, she must shed all claims of entitlement to the pre-modern treatment, whether said pre-modern treatment benefits her or not. End of story.

[Tomcat33]

Here I'm totally pulling a Vonerik move and posting and article from the douche of all douche sites and that is Askmen.com. The article is written by a guy for the guys and it was written not in 1952, not in 1989, not in 1999 but NOW

 

For all the little cry babies who made poopie in their pants this is how the big boys do it:

 

http://ca.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_150/190_dating_advice.html?RSS

 

Take special note of the last lines:

 

 

 

Check Please!

 

On a date, the answer to who should pay says a lot about the status, future and well-being of the relationship. And since no hard-and-fast rules exist, it’s important for guys to understand this basic timeline so they can make wise, strategic decisions to establish a strong, healthy, equitable relationship.

 

[almost famous]

Guys who are having a huge problem with paying for dates when interested in a woman.....is it really putting you out a lot to pay for a few dates until a relationship is established? Don't you want to make a woman you are interested in happy? You are trying to impress her and make her want you in her life. Do you think asking her to pay Dutch at Applebee's is the way to do that? Think about it.

[Stockalone]

Spoken like a guy who truly GETS IT, well done Stock!

 

Thanks, I suppose getting parts of the theoretical exams right is at least something.

 

But there are more important aspects of dating where I apparently don't "get it" at all.