Author Walk Posted September 14, 2008 Author Posted September 14, 2008 I am NOT equal to a man in that men are stronger, men are detached and less emotional, men hav.... You earn the same or more then a man. Yet you demand men pay for all your meals while dating. I said nothing about being The Same as men. And THAT'S WHAT WE WOMEN FOUGHT FOR That's ALL. The fact some butches took it to the other extreme is not my problem or not my idea of what this equality means. I do NOT adhere to that. That's IT. That's the extent of what my equality is. It was more then that. 1974 Housing discrimination on the basis of sex and credit discrimination against women are outlawed by Congress. 1981 - Kirchberg v. Feenstra, 450 U.S. 455, 459-60 (1981), overturns state laws designating a husband “head and master” with unilateral control of property owned jointly with his wife. I don't go out and screw men like I have a dildo between my legs I don't talk like a butch, I don't look like a butch ...do it I am not crippled...." BLEEECHHHHHHHHHH) the more power to you BRUCE!! I have NO desire to do those kinds of things and quite frankly I don't care what other women that have some strong desire to be like men think I am doing to the "sisterhood" or is it the "brotherhood." You just spent a great deal of energy (and numerous paragraphs) pretending that every woman who doesn't believe exactly like you is an ugly, disgusting bull dyck. How quaint. and completely unrealistic. I am a real woman who enjoys the company of a real man. . Only as long as the men will shell out for all the dates. You forgot to add that part.
Author Walk Posted September 14, 2008 Author Posted September 14, 2008 I don't like the word "expect" them to pay. It's just how a guy who is truly interested in you and is gentlemanly and has been raised correctly does it. You don't like the word "expect" but you expect him to pay. Payin does not show he's a gentleman. It shows he knows how to pull out his credit card. You expect men to pay. Stop sugar coating it. If you're going to stand behind your belief then stop wrapping it in excuses.
Dirk Diggler Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 Otherwise it is expected men will pay until such time that the women deams they are in a relationship, only after in they are in a relationship would they reciprocated any future meals. It's not surprising that many women do play both sides of the dinner table. One side trying to independent and equal and the other wanting chivalry of past times when it suits her best. Which is just down right low. Yet such a woman whom is equally interested in the other person to agree to a dinner date, requires so many meals banked before her own generosity shines through!? Let alone the meal signifies reimbursement for her time spent. Draw the parallel between that and an escort service or a prostitute here. Such a person is nothing but a meal whore because the other side of the coin such women loath inequality and strive for independence at the very same time. The fact women actually give thought to the scenario regarding banking so many meals before giving back, shows just how selfish some can be. Note such women are also the first to flip out when their equality is being attacked.
Tomcat33 Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 You don't see the irony in your story? RF No. Enlighten me.
Author Walk Posted September 14, 2008 Author Posted September 14, 2008 I thought SO!! I was going to ask the same thing. This is fresh coming form someone who is not even in the dating world!! Oh golly NO!! A woman in a solid relationship wouldn't know a damn thing about dating (I quote) "A LOT and a LOT" of men like you, Tomcat. (who's not in a solid ltr) Did you really just criticize me because I have a solid relationship? You have got to be kidding me. That's the most hairbrained reason to toss out an idea thats contrary to what you believe about dating. hahaha. "Throw out Walks ideas on what works 'cause she's happy and married. She must not know squat!" hahahaha This is hillarious.
Dirk Diggler Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 Of course I wouldn't expect my man to buy me all these things I want to be a partner in our times of leisure and in every way. That goes without say. But as it seems there is a set time frame in which your deep pockets suddenly open up and show your love interest there actually was money inside!? Since when should there be a time delay on financial generosity when you are asking for equality as an end result?
Tomcat33 Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 You earn the same or more then a man. Yet you demand men pay for all your meals while dating. I said nothing about being The Same as men. . If you are going to do selective reading then what's the point of having a dicussion with you? First off I said that I dont' do dinner dates on the first few dates because it is too intimate, it is too much of a commitment to have a man I don't know pay for my dinner and wine and all this expense etc. and I see it as something more intimate. I usually just go out for a drink on a first few dates, or I've had guys that found out I was into seeing art exhibits for example and they got tickets to a show etc. If I DO agree to an invitation for dinner from him once we have been out for a few times, YES of course I would expect him to pay he invited me so he should pay I am obvously there because I want to be with him SO WHAT if I like to be treated? Men get lazy quickly if you don't keep them on their toes from early on you pretty much making your own death bed. There is no going out for 2 3 5 10 dinners before I asses if I like him or not THAT'S riding a man for a meal ticket, I don't do that, I am not interested in that and I have no desire to be out with a man I pretty much know instantly if I want to see again or not. What is the BIG DEAL here? The fact women actually give thought to the scenario regarding banking so many meals before giving back, shows just how selfish some can be. Note such women are also the first to flip out when their equality is being attacked. Anyone who tells me they do not calculate dates is completely OFF THEIR ROCKER. If I did not use the ability to calculate a date and myself within that date I would be fecking every guy in sight because if there is any minimal sexual vibe I would love to jump his bones pretty much the first night, but I don't because I know that's not accepted on it rules me out for future consideration from a lot of men no matter what they say here....Nor is it recommended for my own emotional wellbeing. So I calculate what makes sense and I operate that way. Just as men calculate when to give a woman a first kiss and went to jump her bones when to ask her out again, when to call, when to I love you. Calculating on a date is playing smart, throwing yourself into it like you are some kind of animal without boundaries is not.
Tomcat33 Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 Oh golly NO!! A woman in a solid relationship wouldn't know a damn thing about dating (I quote) "A LOT and a LOT" of men like you, Tomcat. (who's not in a solid ltr) Lady I had plenty solid LT rels. Am I not allowed to ever be single? Do I lose my worth because I am in between rels right now? Does that discredit me from knowing anything because I am single now? I have dated a lot in between rels so what? Did you really just criticize me because I have a solid relationship? You have got to be kidding me. That's the most hairbrained reason to toss out an idea thats contrary to what you believe about dating. hahaha. "Throw out Walks ideas on what works 'cause she's happy and married. She must not know squat!" hahahaha This is hillarious. "Throw out your idea on what works?" On what works for who? paying for men to take me out doesn't work for me sorry. It doesn't work for the types of men I date either so... Have you lost the plot? Where did I ciricize you because you are in a rel? And you keep mentioning your rel as if it is the first time a man payed enough attention to you to date you more than twice. I don't feel inferior because I am single I am single by choice and I am very happy this way. Why do you feel the need to remind me that you are now in rel to validate your point?!?!? The only reason I said that was because if you are in a rel (I thought you were married) then what the heck do you care what other single women do on their dates or who pays, as Almost Famous pointed out? Awwww...is this the first time you have a real relationship Walk is that what it is?
almost famous Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 Anytime I have been asked out on a date, the guy paid. It was because he liked me and he wanted to treat me, and me accepting meant I wanted to go on a date with him. It's never been an issue. On the next date, I would probably offer to buy popcorn at the movies, and/or whatnot, but if he asked, the guy always paid for the main event (movie tickets/dinner) because he wanted to. If the dates progress to a relationship, then it changes and becomes more equal. This is all depending on what the guy wants to do. If he wants to continue paying because it makes him feel good and he makes a lot more, then fine. The guy WANTED to pay during the courting stage. When a guy likes a girl, and has asked her out, he wants to pay, and will politely refuse when a woman offers. What is the problem with this? There is none. If he is put out financially by a few dates, he needs to get his finances together. He probably wouldn't want to be dating until he could do it properly anyway.
Dirk Diggler Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 Anyone who tells me they do not calculate dates is completely OFF THEIR ROCKER. If I did not use the ability to calculate a date and myself within that date I would be fecking every guy in sight because if there is any minimal sexual vibe I would love to jump his bones pretty much the first night, but I don't because I know that's not accepted on it rules me out for future consideration from a lot of men no matter what they say here....Nor is it recommended for my own emotional wellbeing. So I calculate what makes sense and I operate that way. Just as men calculate when to give a woman a first kiss and went to jump her bones when to ask her out again, when to call, when to I love you. Calculating on a date is playing smart, throwing yourself into it like you are some kind of animal without boundaries is not. Anyone who calculates is trying to manipulate variables to their own selfish interests. In this case it's money. Such women claim to be well established in making their own money, yet need men to front the meals while they navigate through their emotional checklists. The irony like i said is that such women want to be equal and independently earn their own money. But can flip that switch right off when needed. Such a person loses all validity to what they stand by. In such stages of dating if you are trying to come across as equally interested sitting thinking about calculated moves is more like playing games, trying to be one move ahead of the other yet in the end you want things equally invested in one another!? Calculating is a cheap excuse for allowing yourself to get to know someone, if you've got a good head on your shoulders you should have boundaries in place to protect that. I think more respect would come from opening your purse out of being genuine and not thinking you have to pony up the cash, to bail out/eject some deadbeat whom hasn't banked enough meals in you yet. When he makes more than enough cash. This is no different than why if you offered up the tomcat too quickly you stand a high probability of once the guys stud effect wears off, the girl in question will quickly be branded more of a load bank\slut than any sort of relationship material and will be history/FWB material from that point on. Many women her say that's shallow behavior on the part of men, i say the same about this garbage about women banking meals as compensation for their time.
OpenBook Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 Y'know, Mrs. Walk, since you're expending so much energy trying to convince us "modern feminists" that we're contradicting ourselves in our expectations of equal rights and being courted, you might want to broaden your audience to also persuade those bazillions of men out there who wouldn't DREAM of letting their date pay for the meal. I've always offered to help pay for the meal on dates. And I've yet to be taken up on it. To a fault, every guy I've been out with has insisted on paying for it. It's a guy thing! They want to be able to take the credit for the delight I take in the meal, the restaurant, the evening. It's one of their ways of convincing me to start pourin' some sugar on them.:D That's what the mating dance is all about! The female has to be "won over" to his way of thinking. And if they can't afford to take me out on the town, they invite me to their place for a home-cooked meal. (Which is A-OK in my book!) Same thing - their way of trying to impress me, convince me they're worthy of mating with. The feminist movement hasn't changed that testosterone-driven part of the male psyche ONE BIT. They're still men... and they still compete and vy for the attention of women they're sexually attracted to. (Why do I get the feeling I'm trying to explain human mating rituals to an alien from another galaxy??) EDIT: Now that I think about it, I haven't been out with "bazillions" of men. And I've always lived in the South. So maybe my theory is a Southern thing instead of a guy thing... and guys think differently in other geographic locations. Who knows. Anyway, this has been my experience, fwiw.
Author Walk Posted September 14, 2008 Author Posted September 14, 2008 Why is it "proper" for a man to pay? HOW does it prove he's a generous person and respects you? How do things become "equal" after the relationship becomes established? If the man has paid $200 in past dates do you make that up to him after the relationship is established? How does not wanting to pay for all your expenses while out mean he's a loser, broke, or financially incompetent? I'm hearing what you're saying about generosity or value, but the arguments are weak for how the man paying "proves" any of this. By this criteria, we should judge potential friends like this too. Next time I met a woman I feel could be a friend down the road, I'm going to test her by makin her purchases meals/drinks the first 3 to 5 times we go out. If I'm still interested in having a friendship, then I'll start paying for every other meal. Why do we treat dates worse then we treat potential friends?
OpenBook Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 This is no different than why if you offered up the tomcat too quickly you stand a high probability of once the guys stud effect wears off, the girl in question will quickly be branded more of a load bank\slut than any sort of relationship material and will be history/FWB material from that point on. Many women her say that's shallow behavior on the part of men, i say the same about this garbage about women banking meals as compensation for their time. And this is precisely the reason why Tomcat and the rest of us single girls have to put our calculating skills to work. It's a matter of tactical survival!! And this is also a good reason why we can't apply the same principles of equality in the workplace into our romantic lives. It's a totally different playing field. When I'm on a date, I'm not running for the Presidency, or applying to be CEO of a major corporation. I'm a WOMAN, and (hopefully, if it's a decent date!!) I'm being wooed by a MAN. A whole 'nother ball game... if you'll excuse the expression.
norajane Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 This is no different than why if you offered up the tomcat too quickly you stand a high probability of once the guys stud effect wears off, the girl in question will quickly be branded more of a load bank\slut than any sort of relationship material and will be history/FWB material from that point on. Many women her say that's shallow behavior on the part of me, i say the same about this garbage about women banking meals as compensation for their time. You know, this comes as a surprise to me. I didn't realize that men felt this way about paying for dates. Maybe it's the generation of men I date (around 40), but I just don't get the sense they feel this kind of anger or resentment about it.
mental_traveller Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 Like I said before, I find it absolutely ridiculous to pay on dates. I can pay if I want, but I shouldn't be expected to do so. Especially the first date. Now, if we're in a relationship, that's a different story. Applying that logic, isn't it ridiculous of you to expect him to pay? Surely he should only pay if he wants...
Tomcat33 Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 Anyone who calculates is trying to manipulate variables to their own selfish interests. In this case it's money. Sure thing. When you have a daughter some day tell her not to calculate anything when it comes to dating men, tell her to just go with the flow, tell her to follow what she is feeling in the moment and to not manipulate men on a date, if she feels like having a boy's penis in her mouth at 15yrs of age she should GO FOR IT because refraining from doing so will be considered manipulation of some poor guy. And we don't want that. Good luck with that all the best!
mental_traveller Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 And this is also a good reason why we can't apply the same principles of equality in the workplace into our romantic lives. It's a totally different playing field. When I'm on a date, I'm not running for the Presidency, or applying to be CEO of a major corporation. I'm a WOMAN, and (hopefully, if it's a decent date!!) I'm being wooed by a MAN. A whole 'nother ball game... if you'll excuse the expression. So, what does the human ATM sitting across the table from you get out of all this? If a guy wants to pay for female attention, well that's what strip clubs and brothels were invented for. "Wooed" does not mean "bought".
norajane Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 EDIT: Now that I think about it, I haven't been out with "bazillions" of men. And I've always lived in the South. So maybe my theory is a Southern thing instead of a guy thing... and guys think differently in other geographic locations. Who knows. Anyway, this has been my experience, fwiw. I'm from the Midwest. They think that way here, too.
vonerik012 Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 Here is the problem.. Many women do have the "princess" attitude. They are spoiled, selfish, lazy, etc. They ALWAYS use the "Gentlemen pay" or "losers don't pay" line. Women with similar flaws, or other women you do not want to be around for various reasons, also use the same exact rhetoric. No man wants to settle down for life with a taker. So, let the man pay for the first couple dates, and then to be honest, you should be happy that you found a man that likes you, that you like, and you should have no problem paying 50-50. If you come off as completely whiny about splitting costs,or very apprehensive, the man will still pay, but view you in a different manner. Generous women are rare and snatched up much more quickly, which leaves the dating world full of of female takers, princesses, and other unsavory types women.
OpenBook Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 How does not wanting to pay for all your expenses while out mean he's a loser, broke, or financially incompetent? I would say it's a good sign he's socially incompetent, if he was the one who did the asking! It puts an awkward and unexpected burden on the "invitee" to ask them to pay (or help pay), thus breaking a Cardinal Rule of Social Etiquette - always make your guests feel comfortable. And if you're the "invitee", then you're the guest.
Tomcat33 Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 If a guy wants to pay for female attention, well that's what strip clubs and brothels were invented for. "Wooed" does not mean "bought". Well get to it Tiger! If you think paying for some stripper to straddle your crotch after she has straddled the cum of 50 other guys previous to you that night, is the same thing as taking out a woman that could potentially be your best friend, lover and mother to your children and will nurse you back to health when you are sick and pick you up when that promotion at work falls through, then by all means DO spend your money on whores instead of on regular women. We distinctly offer two completey different types of "bangs" for your money. Quite frankly you would do us ladies a favour by staying away...
vonerik012 Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 I would say it's a good sign he's socially incompetent, if he was the one who did the asking! It puts an awkward and unexpected burden on the "invitee" to ask them to pay (or help pay), thus breaking a Cardinal Rule of Social Etiquette - always make your guests feel comfortable. And if you're the "invitee", then you're the guest. Open.. Do you have any friends? So if a male or female friend says "hey lets get a drink and grab a bite to eat" do you then sit there when the bill comes and say "Well you asked me! Social etiquette dictates you pay". You would not have that friend for very long. Paying for women only becomes an issue when the possibility of sex is around.
OpenBook Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 So, what does the human ATM sitting across the table from you get out of all this? If a guy wants to pay for female attention, well that's what strip clubs and brothels were invented for. "Wooed" does not mean "bought". Well then, absolutely - have at it!! I have no objection if a guy would prefer to spend his time and money on strip clubs and brothels. I'll stick to the gentlemen who are concentrating on trying to convince ME, thank you very much.
Star Gazer Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 Open.. Do you have any friends? So if a male or female friend says "hey lets get a drink and grab a bite to eat" do you then sit there when the bill comes and say "Well you asked me! Social etiquette dictates you pay". You would not have that friend for very long. Paying for women only becomes an issue when the possibility of sex is around. In the hypothetical you presented, your friend isn't a guest. When someone asks you out on a date, you ARE their guest. You want to make your guest comfortable. You want to please them. Not ask or expect them to pay. If you invite friends over for a small dinner party, do you show them the grocery bill reflecting the cost of the food you made for dinner and ask them to contribute?
Author Walk Posted September 15, 2008 Author Posted September 15, 2008 Lady I had plenty solid LT rels. Like the guy who had the EA on his wife with you, and then later went back to his wife. So give me "solid LTRs" Tomcat. Give me examples of how each side of the coin (paying and not paying) that have proven to show that he's generous, respectful, etc. Am I not allowed to ever be single? Do I lose my worth because I am in between rels right now? Does that discredit me from knowing anything because I am single now? I have dated a lot in between rels so what? Single is great. Expecting men to pay is like extortion in my book. "Throw out your idea on what works?" On what works for who? paying for men to take me out doesn't work for me sorry. It doesn't work for the types of men I date either so... Have you lost the plot? Where did I ciricize you because you are in a rel? thought SO!! I was going to ask the same thing. This is fresh coming form someone who is not even in the dating world!! And you keep mentioning your rel as if it is the first time a man payed enough attention to you to date you more than twice. I don't feel inferior because I am single I am single by choice and I am very happy this way. Why do you feel the need to remind me that you are now in rel to validate your point?!?!? Would you like to start again. You did insult me. You stated it was ludicrous that a women who is in a relationship would have anything to add about women in a dating situation. You then drop down to an even lower low of implying that I'm a pathetic co-dependent loser in the subsequent posts. This coming on the heels of my laughing that you tossed out my ideas simply because I was in a relationship. Shame on you TC. That's low. Is this how you believe civilty should be? Do you relish the idea of hurting others? Does it excite you?? Please.. continue. haha The only reason I said that was because if you are in a rel (I thought you were married) then what the heck do you care what other single women do on their dates or who pays, as Almost Famous pointed out? Awwww...is this the first time you have a real relationship Walk is that what it is? That is cute Tomcat. You neglected to notice I only mentioned my rel one time in 4 pages, ONLY AFTER your slight on my status as married. I care because the mentality of expecting, demanding, men pay for dates as though a woman is worth something based purely on her existence is ludricous to me. Its a mentality I've noticed has grown in popularity in the past few years. I am shocked by it, and I want NO part in what women are shoving down men's throats. It would be different if it weren't demanded. If men had a choice. If men were appreciated for paying. If men felt that a woman would willingly pay for the meal, but he's offering something to her because he is a nice guy. But instead, the mentality is "if he doesn't pay he's a loser", or worse some kind of scum bag who can't even financially handle a meal. I want no part of that mentality. And by virtue of me being the same gender, I thought (stupidly) that I could maybe get some women to think just a little bit harder on WHY they think the way they think. Instead of blindly going about your lives with the preset mentality.. maybe, just maybe, 1 or 2 women out there would stop for just a second and think.. "Hmm... maybe my thinking is a little out of line. I should really dig a little deeper into why I think this way". Instead, all I hear is a bunch of women defending their stance as justified without answering a the questions I posted regarding WHY they think that way. I hear the same responses repeated and repeated.
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