Men should pay for dates meals.

[Tomcat33]

What would you choose, having a baby or ten years less life on this plnet?

 

 

Quit serial dating and drinking so much and you'll live longer.

[Trialbyfire]

dj, I do understand what it's like to feel like a meal ticket. It happened in one relationship, years and years ago. I took him to task for it, he apologized and tried, I still dumped him like a hot rock. People can amend their actions for a short while but not often for the long term.

 

Actions cause consequences. Draw your boundaries and stick to them.

[almost famous]

I still see nothing wrong with whoever asks, pays. That solves the whole problem.

I don't get what the big deal is. Honestly it's never been an issue for me. If a guy wants to pay, I'm not going to have a cliched, overdone "charming" conversation with him, as Taramere admits will often happen in Sweden on a first date. I prefer more original and exciting conversation than that.

If there is a second date, I may offer to treat, in fact it's very likely.

If I asked a guy out on a first date, and I went to pay and he stated "let's go Dutch, yes, I'd fully expect that he saw me as just a friend, as I'd see him if he had asked me out on a first date and said "let's go Dutch."

I don't get why people are taking issue with this.

[djhall]

I still see nothing wrong with whoever asks, pays. That solves the whole problem.

. . .

If there is a second date, I may offer to treat, in fact it's very likely.

. . .

I don't get why people are taking issue with this.

I don't think many people are, with the exception of the usual suspects. You've indicated that if there is a second date it is likely you are going to treat, or expect to, which indicates you are expecting to be a more or less equal initiator and contributor from the start (for those who would disagree, yes, the second date isn't the first date, but the intent and purpose is there, and splitting up payment for each indivudual date has its own set of problems). The issue was more or less about the women who expect the man to pay and continue paying, either because they believe he should or becaue they believe who asks, pays, but they never ask unless already in an exclusive relationship.

[marlena]

dj,

 

Thank for the summary

 

Ok, so it is unfair. Lots of things imposed by society are unfair. Heck , the very nature of life is unfair. If a man doesn't want to conform to what he regards as a societal injustice, well, no one is twisting his arm. He can either stop dating or exclusively date women who are OK with paying or stop whining and suck it up. As in everything, there is a personal choice.

 

Like I said, much ado about nothing.

[Lights]

dj,

 

Thank for the summary

 

Ok, so it is unfair. Lots of things imposed by society are unfair. Heck , the very nature of life is unfair. If a man doesn't want to conform to what he regards as a societal injustice, well, no one is twisting his arm. He can either stop dating or exclusively date women who are OK with paying or stop whining and suck it up. As in everything, there is a personal choice.

 

Like I said, much ado about nothing.

 

What then should be done to rectify the societal injustice?

 

Before 1920, women could not vote. By your logic, it would have been up to a woman who wanted otherwise to either stop being a U.S. citizen and choose to live in a country which allowed women to vote, or else to stop whining and suck it up. Women's suffrage is much ado about nothing, right?

 

Anyways, those choices omit the third possibility, which is to campaign for women's suffrage to correct the injustice.

 

What can we do to correct the injustice here?

[Storyrider]

What then should be done to rectify the societal injustice?

 

Before 1920, women could not vote. By your logic, it would have been up to a woman who wanted otherwise to either stop being a U.S. citizen and choose to live in a country which allowed women to vote, or else to stop whining and suck it up. Women's suffrage is much ado about nothing, right?

 

Anyways, those choices omit the third possibility, which is to campaign for women's suffrage to correct the injustice.

 

What can we do to correct the injustice here?

 

We're not talking about a social injustice imposed by the State. We're talking about a personal choice that should be dealt with on an individual basis, between two people. I think that is what Marlena is saying.

[Lights]

We're not talking about a social injustice imposed by the State. We're talking about a personal choice that should be dealt with on an individual basis, between two people. I think that is what Marlena is saying.

 

I'm not claiming that the injustice here is imposed by a state.

 

I am claiming that her definitions of actions taken subsequently are more limited than would be expected and happen to omit the course of action of taking corrective action against the injustice.

 

So again, what can we do to correct the injustice?

[marlena]

We're not talking about a social injustice imposed by the State. We're talking about a personal choice that should be dealt with on an individual basis, between two people. I think that is what Marlena is saying.

 

Yes, Story, this is exactly what I meant. Equating the two just for the sake of argument is a far stretch IMO.

 

So again, what can we do to correct the injustice?

 

Rally up all your supporters and get down on the streets and start protesting!! That's how revolutions begin!

[Storyrider]

Marlena, I'm always happy when we can agree

 

So again, what can we do to correct the injustice?

 

What injustice? Who is being forced to do something in your scenario?

[Lights]

Marlena, I'm always happy when we can agree

 

 

 

What injustice? Who is being forced to do something in your scenario?

 

Where is it written that force is required? A lot of women considered previous generations' gender-based workplace pay inequities unfair. But no one coerced them to take a job in this country. Do we then state that since no coercion was involved, that such a situation is just?

[marlena]

Marlena, I'm always happy when we can agree

 

So am I sweetie.

 

What injustice? Who is being forced to do something in your scenario?

 

Good point. No one is forcing you to pay. Next time you ask a woman out tell her in advance that you are going dutch!! Fair enough, no?

[djhall]

Rally up all your supporters and get down on the streets and start protesting!! That's how revolutions begin!

More realistically, the first step for most people is just acknowledging there is anything wrong with the way things are in the first place. Once people recognize that it tends to subtly change the way they see things afterward.

 

I would be quite satisfied if after reading this thread a few women who would not have done so before gave a little thought to having been treated to two dates and decided to take the initiative to invite and pay for the third, or maybe when a female friend mentions that a guy has taken them out and paid for the sixth time in a row says, "Gee... six dates he's paid for so far... doesn't quite seem fair somehow."

[marlena]

More realistically, the first step for most people is just acknowledging there is anything wrong with the way things are in the first place. Once people recognize that it tends to subtly change the way they see things afterward.

 

 

Yes, as in many things, it's all about changing an age-old mentality and THAT is one of the hardest things to accomplish in society. Like eradicating racial prejudice. Very,very hard.

[Tomcat33]

Where is it written that force is required? A lot of women considered previous generations' gender-based workplace pay inequities unfair. But no one coerced them to take a job in this country. Do we then state that since no coercion was involved, that such a situation is just?

 

 

No one coerced them to take a job in this country? So what is a single unmarried woman supposed to do, one who does not have a man to support her, sit in a corner and shrivel up and die?

 

I think the demands of life itself is coercion enough. Or did men actually prefer it when women married them not because they really loved or admired them but because they needed someone to feed them and put a roof over their heads?

[Lights]

No one coerced them to take a job in this country? So what is a single unmarried woman supposed to do, one who does not have a man to support her, sit in a corner and shrivel up and die?

 

No. She could leave the country in search of a worthier culture which would permit her better employment. Or she could take corrective action against the injustice and campaign for workplace pay equity. Or, to use your phraseology, she could suck it up and stop whining and accept inferior pay.

 

So, since no one coerced women to seek work in this country during those time periods, do we then say that that situation was just?

[Tomcat33]

Yes, as in many things, it's all about changing an age-old mentality and THAT is one of the hardest things to accomplish in society. Like eradicating racial prejudice. Very,very hard.

 

 

I'd like to see something very basic and realistic to our times, I'd like to see men date and want to get to know women they have a one night stand with. If women are good enough to share the utmost intimate act two people can share, then surely these same women are just as good to get to know wand possibly consider to be a long time partner.

 

Sure sure the odd guy will pipe in and say "I don't mind I don't think one night stand girls are easy or tramps" but the majority of men think the opposite.

 

And what does that boil down to? Mentaility, one which some of you men propose it is SO easy to change.

[Tomcat33]

No. She could leave the country in search of a worthier culture which would permit her better employment. Or she could take corrective action against the injustice and campaign for workplace pay equity. Or, to use your phraseology, she could suck it up and stop whining and accept inferior pay.

 

So, since no one coerced women to seek work in this country during those time periods, do we then say that that situation was just?

 

 

Oh I see so in the 60's when women decided "hey I am on my own, I am not with a man, I need to support myself and therefore should get paid accordingly" what you are proposing is that women should LEAVE the country, family and friends and general culture behind to pursue another culture that will accomodate her. Wow your "second rate citizen" attitude towards women is very attractive.

Or, to use your phraseology, she could suck it up and stop whining and accept inferior pay.

 

I never said those words but I digress...

 

You can't compare a woman fighting for the wellbeing and betterment of her entire life as a single individual who works AS hard as a man, to a man complaining about having to pick up a $30 tab at the end of a date with a woman he is highly interested in. $30 which more than likely the same guy would not think twice about putting a series of them down the g-string of some stripper at a peeler bar or spending on porn or drinks out with his friends etc.

[djhall]

I'd like to see something very basic and realistic to our times, I'd like to see men date and want to get to know women they have a one night stand with. If women are good enough to share the utmost intimate act two people can share, then surely these same women are just as good to get to know wand possibly consider to be a long time partner.

 

Sure sure the odd guy will pipe in and say "I don't mind I don't think one night stand girls are easy or tramps" but the majority of men think the opposite.

 

And what does that boil down to? Mentaility, one which some of you men propose it is SO easy to change.

No argument from me here. I have long thought it was particularly cruel that we glorify the sexual aspects and appeal of women in particular, spare no effort to break down inhibitions and get women to act sexual, and then tear them down ruthlessly when they explore and express that very sexuality we work so hard to get them to express.

 

However, I also attack this injustice from two other fronts. First, whenever I hear a man insulting a woman for being sexually expressive I make sure to dump a dose of the exact same criticism on him for having no morals or self respect that he would stick his wick in any woman who was willing to spread them for him. Strangely enough, most guys are rather surprised that any once could criticise them for engaging in the exact same behavior and don't like it much. Hopefully they get the point and realize how it feels to be on the other end.

 

Second, I make it a point to set a good example by altruistically and enthusiasically welcoming "one night stand girls and tramps" to share my company with open arms and nothing but complimentary words!

[Tomcat33]

See DJ then it is safe to say that you walk the walk and talk the talk. If that is how you see things then you have a truly modern way of looking at dating and men/women.

I respect that and I think you would make a perfect match to the type of woman who prefers to pay or go dutch. She will be more free spirited with her sexuality in terms of how many partners she will have etc.

I think that's fine.

 

For the types of women who are more traditional in this respect we tend to gravitate towards the more traditional thinking types of men and I have not problem with that.

 

As long as what you offer VS what you expect aligns I have no problem with that, in fact I find that very cool!

[Lights]

Oh I see so in the 60's when women decided "hey I am on my own, I am not with a man, I need to support myself and therefore should get paid accordingly" what you are proposing is that women should LEAVE the country, family and friends and general culture behind to pursue another culture that will accomodate her. Wow your "second rate citizen" attitude towards women is very attractive.

Correct. That was the choice they had, to use the logic applied by other posters in this thread; either accept inferior pay (unjust in my book, but presumably just according to others in this thread because no one forced them to work in this country), or else find a culture which would offer them fair pay. The third was my crazy idea of taking corrective action against injustice.

 

Do not ass-u-me about my attitude towards women or towards second rate citizenship. I suggest you look up the phrase "reductio ad absurdum" and you will then see why I brought up those situations.

 

I never said those words but I digress...

You're right, that was Marlena, not you. Sorry about that.

 

You can't compare a woman fighting for the wellbeing and betterment of her entire life as a single individual who works AS hard as a man, to a man complaining about having to pick up a $30 tab at the end of a date with a woman he is highly interested in.

 

Actually, yes I can. In each case, the person is not being compelled by anyone, as per Storyrider's assumption regarding injustice, but that the local situation still offers them an unjust deal. I suggest this strange and radical idea of fighting back against the injustice. The concepts I compare while illustrating the situations are of the same kind; it is perceptions of degree of the situation that vary.

[Storyrider]

Correct. That was the choice they had, to use the logic applied by other posters in this thread; either accept inferior pay (unjust in my book, but presumably just according to others in this thread because no one forced them to work in this country), or else find a culture which would offer them fair pay. The third was my crazy idea of taking corrective action against injustice.

 

Do not ass-u-me about my attitude towards women or towards second rate citizenship. I suggest you look up the phrase "reductio ad absurdum" and you will then see why I brought up those situations.

 

 

You're right, that was Marlena, not you. Sorry about that.

 

 

 

Actually, yes I can. In each case, the person is not being compelled by anyone, as per Storyrider's assumption regarding injustice, but that the local situation still offers them an unjust deal. I suggest this strange and radical idea of fighting back against the injustice. The concepts I compare while illustrating the situations are of the same kind; it is perceptions of degree of the situation that vary.

You're assuming a situation where there are no options and no recourse within the system. It is a false analogy.

 

There are plenty of women who are willing to split the bill, some immediately, some after the first date or two. I would say most women are not shallow, and if you come across one who is, why would you want her anyway?

[Tomcat33]

Correct. That was the choice they had, to use the logic applied by other posters in this thread; either accept inferior pay (unjust in my book, but presumably just according to others in this thread because no one forced them to work in this country), or else find a culture which would offer them fair pay. The third was my crazy idea of taking corrective action against injustice.

 

Do not ass-u-me about my attitude towards women or towards second rate citizenship. I suggest you look up the phrase "reductio ad absurdum" and you will then see why I brought up those situations.

 

I am not reducing what you said by power of deduction making it false I stated a comment on your DIRECT post, which was "why did women who have to work why not go to another country to be accepted there?" !?!? Which by the way that doesn't even make sense. If you have no money and you are looking for equality within a culture what money do you even have to up and leave and go off to start a life in another culture? That was a bad example!! Crazy yes, good no.

 

 

The point is you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

In the case of women asking for more money at work women were compelled by the need to be rewarded accordingly for their work and to be seen as individuals above a gender. It's the very same premise that equalized racism, people don't get work (in our country) because we are white, hispanic, black or Asian, we get work because we are capable individuals.

 

Ad fundum, if we are going to start erasing all differences from society that separate the genders then please let's all start dressing exactly the same there is no reason why I can't see a man in a mini skirt. NO reason.

 

 

.

[djhall]

Ad fundum, if we are going to start erasing all differences from society that separate the genders then please let's all start dressing exactly the same there is no reason why I can't see a man in a mini skirt.

Are you suggesting he wear a skirt, on the streets instead of shorts or as opposed to shorts on the streets a skirt he wear a skirt? Instead of shorts?

[Storyrider]

Are you suggesting he wear a skirt, on the streets instead of shorts or as opposed to shorts on the streets a skirt he wear a skirt? Instead of shorts?

He would definitely attract attention if he wore a skirt.