Trialbyfire Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 How to lose the Collector in one date. Expect him pay! Now, back on topic. Anyways, I gave my perspective on the key first date and aren't the least bit apologetic about it.
The Collector Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 How to lose the Collector in one date. Expect him pay! Funny but true. Heed TBFs warning well, ladies.
almost famous Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 when a man asks a woman out, he is saying "I want to take you out and I am treating." Let's just leave it at that. If you are saying "I want to take you out, but you will pay your own way" then tell the woman that. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' here.
NativeMetalGrl Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 I think whomever asks, should pay. I realise men do far more of the asking than women, but you'd never walk up to someone and say "hey, can I take you out to dinner, hey, I'll even let you pay for it." I figure, dating or not, if you're going to ask someone out, be prepared to pay. If you're seeing someone regularly, you should alternate and take turns paying so that one party doesn't go broke footing the bill for your courtship. Or.. avoid the whole issue altogether and go on dates where money isn't required. The beach, the park, hiking.. etc.
The Collector Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 when a man asks a woman out, he is saying "I want to take you out and I am treating." Let's just leave it at that. No, let's not. This thread is for discussing that very implication, and whether there is anything wrong with that set-up. You are free to have your say or leave the thread if you do not care to discuss it further. If you are saying "I want to take you out, but you will pay your own way" then tell the woman that. I would. But hopefully there will come a time when that last part is not necessary.
almost famous Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 Well, there is no right or wrong here, like I said. If you want to date someone and have them pay Dutch all the time, date someone that will do that. I don't see what the big deal is. Date one of those women who insists on paying. There 'ya go, problem solved.
The Collector Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 Well, there is no right or wrong here, like I said. If you want to date someone and have them pay Dutch all the time, date someone that will do that. I don't see what the big deal is. Date one of those women who insists on paying. There 'ya go, problem solved. That's what I do, works fine. The only reason I participate much in these threads is because of women who call men who don't pay cheapskates and losers, claim they deserve to be paid for, or are suddenly fans of tradition when it suits their purses, and other such illogical hypocrisy. I'm not a fan of illogical hypocrisy.
almost famous Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 They're not cheapskates or losers, they just aren't really into a woman if they aren't paying on the first date.
djhall Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 I'm the type that has never asked a guy out. I want a guy who's got the guts to know what he wants and isn't afraid to go after it. Whether this is fair, since I won't reciprocate, is moot to me. That it doesn't slow down my dating process, is fine. If it did, I might amend this. Who knows what will happen in the future. Not I. Since the guy is asking, he can pay. TBF, I have to give you credit for the honesty in that post. By admitting that you want a certain thing in men, that you know you aren't willing to recipricate, that you don't really care whether that is fair or not, and that you won't change unless it hurts you personally, you cut through the crap and laid out exactly where you stand, how you feel, and why, without trying to disguise it with a buch of justificatons that aren't your true reasons. It seems to me you are a lot closer to the "it should be fair" camp than most people are giving you credit for. You say that the person who asks should pay and you never ask first, but then say you belive both partners should equally share asking and paying once you have a dating relationship, which you define as having already had one or two dates. I believe you also said you felt dinner was too much for a first date, which pretty much takes you down to expecting him to maybe ask you out for a cup of coffee as a first date, something a little more costly but less than dinner for a second date, and then you are willing to go full in as an equal partner from then on. I don't see how you could get much more reasonable than that without compromising on your unwillingness to be the one who gets the dating started. From my perspective, you come across as fundamentally believing that both people should equally ask and pay, but have a strange hang up about the woman's role in the first two or three dates that prevents you from being an active participant until the man makes it "okay".
Cherry Blossom 35 Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 They're not cheapskates or losers, they just aren't really into a woman if they aren't paying on the first date. Totally agreed! The fact is, if a guy asked Hiedi Klum out, (Let's say Seal is out of the picture) and she accepted, you had better believe he wouldn't be wondering throughou the date whether or not she would offer to pay. most men would gladly foot the bill to have the chance to date Heidi Klum. Now I know what you guys will say next- but you ladies aren't Heidi Klum! That's right, we're not, and we know how you feel about us when you want us to go dutch on the first or even second date. Get it? This is how I feel at the end of the date if the guy pays happily and won't let me near the bill: Wow, he is generous and thoughtful. He enjoyed my time and seemed to think I was worth a Saturday night. I feel special and taken care of. All of these feelings allow me to open up and start feeling some emotions about this guy. It makes me want to see him again. Not because I want another free meal, but because of HOW HE MADE ME FEEL. Got it? In this case it is his paying for the meal that makes me feel that way, but money is not the only way to make me feel like this. Carhill brought up a great example earlier about a home cooked meal, special wine, etc. The point is that the guy is being generous and thoughtful, and those things count. If you are a guy who doesn't want to spend a lot of money, take her for a hike and bring a picnic with wine and cheese. That is a thoughtful date. Paying for dinner is just one way to make a woman feel good about the guy and the date. The fact is, if I am newly dating a guy and he whips out a calculator at the dinner table, I am turned off. I, personally, feel weird when a guy wants me to pay for half the meal on the first couple of dates. It makes me feel like I am not that special. That's just one person's opinion, but there you have it. And by the way, I am so NOT princess-y. That is so not my style. I don't really hang out with people like that either.
djhall Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 I think whomever asks, should pay. . . . I figure, dating or not, if you're going to ask someone out, be prepared to pay. . . . Or.. avoid the whole issue altogether and go on dates where money isn't required. The beach, the park, hiking.. etc. I personally agree with this, and my method of preventing myself from being taken advantage of is simply to back off after the first couple dates, stop inviting, and see whether she will pick up the ball and reciprocate. I figure that someone who is interested in me and of a similar mindset will not have a problem figuring out some way to initiate getting us back together again, even if it is something simple like, "I'm taking my dog to the beach this weekend. It could be a lot of fun if you wanted to come along." For those who don't agree that the person who asks should pay, how do you deal with the fact that the person who is asking has control over the expense of the activity? If you ask them out, but they pay, how do they know or control whether they are paying for a funnel cake at a street fair or a $100 a plate dinner before attending an expensive opera or symphony? Should they just expect to blindly pay for whatever you came up with, or should they just pay what they are willing to pay regardless of how expensive the activity actually was?
Trialbyfire Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 I believe you also said you felt dinner was too much for a first date, I should correct this. I don't believe that dinner is too much, IF the guy can afford it and wants to do it. If the guy's overextended himself, it's not good. As for waiting for the guy to make it "okay", that's not exactly how I feel. I like an assertive, confident guy who knows what he wants and isn't afraid to go after it. While this maybe old school, that's something else I'm totally unapologetic about.
djhall Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 Totally agreed! The fact is, if a guy asked Hiedi Klum out, (Let's say Seal is out of the picture) and she accepted, you had better believe he wouldn't be wondering throughou the date whether or not she would offer to pay. most men would gladly foot the bill to have the chance to date Heidi Klum. Now I know what you guys will say next- but you ladies aren't Heidi Klum! What? No, I was thinking that Hiedi Klum would be really lucky and grateful if I agreed to go on a date with her, and of course she would do the asking and paying! (and now we return to our regularly scheduled reality in progress)
vonerik012 Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 So the real reason men should pay is because of female insecurity? See, this is the problem.. Insecure women need CONSTANT reassurance that they are valuable. This does not end after 3 dates, it only begins. And this means you must keep paying. Or they will feel you are tired of them, taking them for granted etc. I am sure the insecure women will also need a big rock to feel loved too. It all comes back to what I said before. The women who could are less about whom pays are the best catches. It is no fun dating an insecure woman.
djhall Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 I should correct this. I don't believe that dinner is too much, IF the guy can afford it and wants to do it. If the guy's overextended himself, it's not good. As for waiting for the guy to make it "okay", that's not exactly how I feel. I like an assertive, confident guy who knows what he wants and isn't afraid to go after it. While this maybe old school, that's something else I'm totally unapologetic about. I stand corrected. I wasn't sure if you were one of the women who were posting that men shouldn't be planning dinner dates for first dates anyway, so I tried to qualify the statement a little. The making it "okay" part comes from what appears to me to be this odd change between the way you want to be an active participant after the first few dates, but a passive recipient during the first few dates, almost as if you feel it not okay for a woman to take initiative until after the man has done so and therefore made it okay for the woman to start. I'm starting to think this is just a personal preference thing though. It isn't so much that you don't think it is okay, as much as it is that you want a man to be willing to chase you if necessary, and those first couple dates are about him demonstrating his willingness to pursue you before you start making it easier.
almost famous Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 If you are thinking and wondering this much about it...there are issues because it's really not complicated. It has NEVER been an issue in any of my relationships. I personally agree with this, and my method of preventing myself from being taken advantage of is simply to back off after the first couple dates, stop inviting, and see whether she will pick up the ball and reciprocate. I figure that someone who is interested in me and of a similar mindset will not have a problem figuring out some way to initiate getting us back together again, even if it is something simple like, "I'm taking my dog to the beach this weekend. It could be a lot of fun if you wanted to come along." For those who don't agree that the person who asks should pay, how do you deal with the fact that the person who is asking has control over the expense of the activity? If you ask them out, but they pay, how do they know or control whether they are paying for a funnel cake at a street fair or a $100 a plate dinner before attending an expensive opera or symphony? Should they just expect to blindly pay for whatever you came up with, or should they just pay what they are willing to pay regardless of how expensive the activity actually was?
The Collector Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 Totally agreed! The fact is, if a guy asked Hiedi Klum out, (Let's say Seal is out of the picture) and she accepted, you had better believe he wouldn't be wondering throughou the date whether or not she would offer to pay. most men would gladly foot the bill to have the chance to date Heidi Klum. I've dated models. We split any bills - or she 'treated' me.
Cherry Blossom 35 Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 So the real reason men should pay is because of female insecurity? See, this is the problem.. Insecure women need CONSTANT reassurance that they are valuable. This does not end after 3 dates, it only begins. And this means you must keep paying. Or they will feel you are tired of them, taking them for granted etc. I am sure the insecure women will also need a big rock to feel loved too. It all comes back to what I said before. The women who could are less about whom pays are the best catches. It is no fun dating an insecure woman. It has nothing to do with insecurity. It has to do with a man making a woman feel special. Do not twist my words, that is not what I said or meant at all. I also said that a man can make a woman feel this way while spending very little money at all, if you read my post. I have never needed bling from a relationship, either. I am tired of you putting all women into one little, ill fitting box. At any rate, I would never date someone like you so it really doesn't matter what you think. It is very rare that I have dated a man where he did not pay for the first few outings, and gladly.
Trialbyfire Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 I stand corrected. I wasn't sure if you were one of the women who were posting that men shouldn't be planning dinner dates for first dates anyway, so I tried to qualify the statement a little. The making it "okay" part comes from what appears to me to be this odd change between the way you want to be an active participant after the first few dates, but a passive recipient during the first few dates, almost as if you feel it not okay for a woman to take initiative until after the man has done so and therefore made it okay for the woman to start. I'm starting to think this is just a personal preference thing though. It isn't so much that you don't think it is okay, as much as it is that you want a man to be willing to chase you if necessary, and those first couple dates are about him demonstrating his willingness to pursue you before you start making it easier. I would say you're bang on with the personal preference thing. It's most definitely my preference. Yes. Has he got the mojo?
Cherry Blossom 35 Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 I'm certainly going to keep doing what I'm doing because these are the kinds of guys I like. I went out last week with a guy who paid the bill before it even came to the table, so there was no awkwardness at all. Other times the guy will just whip out his card and slip it in the bill before I even have a chance to look at it. The other guy I'm dating treated me on out first date, and when I sent him an email thanking him, he said it was his pleasure and he would like to do it again. This works pretty well for me.
The Collector Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_Dutch In Sweden, the practice of splitting the bill in restaurants is common. In a courtship situation where both parts have a similar financial standing, which is commonplace in Sweden, the traditional custom of the man always paying in restaurants has largely fallen out of use and is by many, including etiquette authorities considered old fashioned. Generally a romantic couple will take turns paying the bill or split it. It is generally assumed that everyone pays for himself or herself in restaurants unless the invitation stated otherwise. In most of northern and central Europe the practice of splitting the bill is common. On a dinner date, the man may pay the bill as way of overtly stating that he views this as a romantic situation and that he has some hopes or expectations for a future development. Some women object to this or even find it offensive (per Feminist support for Dutch date practice above) so it is a judgment call. Younger urban women especially tend not to accept men paying for them; or will in turn insist to pay for the next dinner or drink.
almost famous Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 Sorry but this really isn't supporting your argument. It specifically states that the man will pay as an overt sign of romantic interest. That pretty much supports the idea that a guy really isn't into you if he's not paying. It also states that romantic couples will often split the bill, and many of us women have stated that is what is going on....once they are a couple.
vonerik012 Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Cherry, you said men would pay for Heidi Klum, so, you would also like to be paid for to feel special. If not, you would not feel special.. Where does it end? Well, I would also like to feel like Brad Pitt. Many women would have sex immediately after dinner with Brad Pitt. So, I am expecting immediate sex after dinner, so I can also feel special.
Cherry Blossom 35 Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Cherry, you said men would pay for Heidi Klum, so, you would also like to be paid for to feel special. If not, you would not feel special.. Where does it end? Well, I would also like to feel like Brad Pitt. Many women would have sex immediately after dinner with Brad Pitt. So, I am expecting immediate sex after dinner, so I can also feel special. Where does it end? Hopefully it never ends. When I am in a good relationship we both do things for each other that makes the other feel special. It starts at the beginning and goes on from there. Making the other person, whether it be man or woman, feel special and valuable is part of what makes a great relationship. Do you not get this? We do it in different ways. It has nothing to do with insecurity, and everything to do with respect and care for the ones we like and love. Maybe my bf pays for dinner in the beginning of the relationship. Later on down the road he gets sick and I take care of him. Maybe he has always wanted to see a particular band and I spring for tickets without him knowing about it. See? It all evens out.
almost famous Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Money is all neither here nor there in dating/relationships to me. If you're going to quibble over dollars spent at the first stages of dating, go ahead and waste your time thinking of such things. As Cherry Blossom stated, once you become in a relationship, it catches up. Perhaps I might buy him a birthday present which makes up for the 3 dates he paid for upon initial dating....not keeping tally or worrying about it here.
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