Men should pay for dates meals.

[almost famous]

You don't see any expectation in just that one sentence? Sure, you don't expect a man to pay. But he's toast if he doesn't. Gotcha.

 

No expectation at all. If he doesn't pay when he has asked me out, then he is not polite and I don't want to date him.

[almost famous]

Soda and popcorn can equal up to $20 in theatres. Also it's more of a convenience courtesy. I don't hand him any money, I just say "I'll get the snacks and drinks, what would you like?" And I go to the concession stand myself while he is getting tickets and going to the restroom/whatever, so we can get into the movie quick enough and it is a very thoughtful gesture.

 

LOL,, This is what really makes me laugh.

 

 

I can picture this scenario.

 

Take Almost Famous out to dinner, and drinks.. Drop $100. Buy move tickets $15. Then, in front of everyone, when waiting for popcorn, Almost opens her purse and says "here is money for popcorn" handing you a five, completely emasculating you in the process. Or as another girl paid the valet 2 dollars after a $600 date.

 

If you are only going to offer to pay for popcorn, please, please just keep the money in your purse, lol..

[almost famous]

With your theory it's also emasculating on a first date for me to say "Oh Vonerik, I'm so lucky to have been asked out by you - let me get dinner" as I pull out my credit card.

 

 

LOL,, This is what really makes me laugh.

 

 

I can picture this scenario.

 

Take Almost Famous out to dinner, and drinks.. Drop $100. Buy move tickets $15. Then, in front of everyone, when waiting for popcorn, Almost opens her purse and says "here is money for popcorn" handing you a five, completely emasculating you in the process. Or as another girl paid the valet 2 dollars after a $600 date.

 

If you are only going to offer to pay for popcorn, please, please just keep the money in your purse, lol..

[almost famous]

Once you have gone out a few times, then the girl would start paying and it would pretty much be 50/50.

So if you are serial dating, you need the cash then. So get a 2nd job. But then you won't have time for dating...hmm. Just sayin'.

 

 

totally agree with this. Women should REALLY take a card look at that mentality.

 

You don't expect it....but they are not getting a second date. So I pay for the friggen meal and drinks *shrug*

 

But if you are doing a lot of dating, this gets pretty expensive quick!

[nowhereman82]

All of your answers didn't really address what several men pointed out to you.

 

You said no expectations for the to pay but there wont be a 2nd date.

 

You HAVE the expectation that if the man doesn't pay there WILL NOT be a 2nd date.

 

Think that's pretty clear to me

[almost famous]

It's not an expectation but I can honestly say I have never had it where a guy asked me for a date and didn't pay.

It is a definite way to not get a second date guys, to ask a woman out on a date and ask her to "go Dutch" or pay. So take this as a lesson. But most of you aren't that slow I figure.

[almost famous]

Can you not put yourself in the man's shoes? Imagine - please - that you have bought a man dinner and drinks, then there are two movie tickets you buy... and his conscience is clear if he buys you some popcorn? You'd see no problem with that? You'd think that was fair and logical?

 

It's not about conscience, it's just a nice gesture to offer if so inclined. If I have asked a man out as my treat for the evening, I wouldn't feel a problem if he didn't offer to pay for anything, I would actually want to pay for everything if I asked him out and would feel happy that he accepted my offer to treat him. However I don't ask guys out unless we have established a relationship so it will take 3 or so dates to get to this point.

[Walk]

IIf I have asked a man out as my treat for the evening, I wouldn't feel a problem if he didn't offer to pay for anything, ....However I don't ask guys out

 

.... Previous posts ....

if <asking> someone out is really angering you that much and you're feeling like you're being taken for a ride/sugar daddy then you have issues.

 

if you want a second and third date, you want to pay.

 

If he doesn't pay when he has asked me out, then he is not polite and I don't want to date him

 

It is a definite way to not get a second date guys

 

You expect men to pay.

Merriam Webster Dicitionary for expected: to consider reasonable, due, or necessary.

 

You know the definition, so why are you attempting to claim you're not expecting men to pay when you are?

 

You expect something from someone else that you are unwilling to do yourself. That'd be like me expecting my husband to do the dishes and then me getting mad at him if he doesn't, yet I won't do the dishes at all.

[vonerik012]

Yes Almost, you should be happy if you meet a man that wants to spend time with you. Are you that wonderful that you must be compensated for it because you have a vagina? Well, if that is the reason I am paying, I am guessing i should be able to have use of what i am paying for.

[Walk]

Yes Almost, you should be happy if you meet a man that wants to spend time with you. Are you that wonderful that you must be compensated for it because you have a vagina? Well, if that is the reason I am paying, I am guessing i should be able to have use of what i am paying for.

But she doesn't want to be valued for her vagina. She wants to be valued for "who" she is. She's in essence saying she feels her wit, intellect, and personality should only be given if you part with your money. Espcially considering she won't ask men out, and believes the person who asked should pay.

[Taramere]

Cherry, all types of women have that attitude.. Women with money, without money, educated, not educated.

 

Maybe I date more attractive women, so more attractive women do feel more entitled? I am not sure.

 

Here's something that I think bears a lot of responsibility for the "men should pay" outlook.

 

In the book Birds Without Wings, there's a little episode where the prettiest girl in the village is order to cover her face as the sight of it is causing too much stress and excitement within the village. Almost immediately every other woman in the village decides it's time to cover up her face - to show that she too is beautiful enough to potentially cause chaos. Even the plainest women are walking around shrouded in mysterious scarves.

 

And so it is with the dinner paying thing. It's still very commonplace for men to grade women primarily on their appearance. The hotter they think the woman is, the more cash many men will be prepared to spend on her. Pretty much all heterosexual women want to be considered physically attractive by men they're interested in - even if objectively they know they're average.

 

My view is that if the guy is someone who just does not or can not treat women - any women - in the "I'll pay....no, I insist on it" manner, then that's absolutely fine. If, however, a man applies selective chivalry/generosity to his dates according to where he thinks she falls on the 1 to 10 scale, then the going Dutch thing is bound to signal low interest, feel insulting and be sufficient reason for the woman to not want a second date.

[almost famous]

I'm not expecting it. It's just something a man with manners does. I'm not going to point it out to him. I'll pay my share if he's telling me to pay. It's more like someone else stated "you hope he likes you and has manners enough to pay if he asks you out." Otherwise he is weeded out. You keep forgetting that HE asked ME out here. If I asked HIM out (which won't happen for the first several dates and I'd likely ask him to my place for dinner rather than out), then I'd be prepared to pay.....however it's not shocking for a guy who really likes you to not allow you to pay anyway. I am like TBF and others....we like gentlemen with manners.

 

You expect men to pay.

Merriam Webster Dicitionary for expected: to consider reasonable, due, or necessary.

 

You know the definition, so why are you attempting to claim you're not expecting men to pay when you are?

 

You expect something from someone else that you are unwilling to do yourself. That'd be like me expecting my husband to do the dishes and then me getting mad at him if he doesn't, yet I won't do the dishes at all.

[Walk]

Here's something that I think bears a lot of responsibility for the "men should pay" outlook.

Even the plainest women are walking around shrouded in mysterious scarves.

And so it is with the dinner paying thing. It's still very commonplace for men to grade women primarily on their appearance.

 

If, however, a man applies selective chivalry/generosity to his dates according to where he thinks she falls on the 1 to 10 scale, then the going Dutch thing is bound to signal low interest, feel insulting and be sufficient reason for the woman to not want a second date.

 

Interesting outlook on this.

 

Not wanting to feel hurt is understandable. Wanting to feel special is understandable. Making someone else give what they have in order to make you feel better, isn't though. (you in a highly generalized sense, not you specificially)

 

It'd be like if those women in the book wore the shrouds and then demanded men bow to them. Wanting to feel beautiful is one thing, asking someone else to put effort into proving to you that you're beautiful is completely different. The women in the book did not make any one else put effort into making themselves feel beautiful. The women themselves put effort into making themselves feel beautiful.

 

I can understand why having a man pay would make you feel special.. IF it was because they understood that the man was giving something he had worked hard to earn and then shared it with her. But that's not how these women portray it. They believe what he gave is no big thing, and isn't worth anything. UNLESS he doesn't give it, and then he's a loser, a pos, and white trash. What he gave is not worth returning. Yet when he doesn't give, he's not worth her time.

 

(I haven't read the book, so I went off what little you described about it.. feel free to correct me if I'm way off base about that.)

[Walk]

I'm not expecting it. It's just something a man with manners does. I'm not going to point it out to him. I'll pay my share if he's telling me to pay. It's more like someone else stated "you hope he likes you and has manners enough to pay if he asks you out." Otherwise he is weeded out. You keep forgetting that HE asked ME out here. If I asked HIM out (which won't happen for the first several dates and I'd likely ask him to my place for dinner rather than out), then I'd be prepared to pay.....however it's not shocking for a guy who really likes you to not allow you to pay anyway. I am like TBF and others....we like gentlemen with manners.

 

But you do NOT ask men out. You will never ask a man out. THerefore you "expect" men to pay. If he does not meet your expectations, then you toss him aside.

 

To say you are prepared to pay if you asked him out is laughable. You will never ask a man out. So you will never be prepared to pay.

[Trialbyfire]

Hey almost famous. I'm not of the personal belief that men should always pay unless it's the first date, and only if I want a second date. If the man isn't of interest, I'll pay the entire shot the first date. Second dates and further are alternated. But...if I catch a hint that the guy begrudges paying, I do feel that he's cheap.

 

Having said all this, if both the man and woman believe that the man should pay, that's fine. If both the man and woman believe that they should split, that's fine too. When the two agree on whatever the methodology, there's more likelihood there will be a second date. I can't see this need for everyone to have to do it a certain way.

[almost famous]

I do start reciprocating asking out once it has become steady, or I suggest something to do. Once we are boyfriend and girlfriend, it's different, which is also throwing you off. The "courting" process is a different story which we've explained. It's about establishing if the male is really interested or not.

A lot of guys are going to be spooked out if a woman he is interested in asks him out, and he decides he isn't interested in her after all. They want to be the "man." You are having problems with biology and male ego, but that is the way it is. You don't have to like it, but that is the way it is. That is what is throwing you off about this, the innate male psyche. Just go with it.

[carhill]

Why does a man spending money on a woman "make her feel special"? What if he grew the white roses and cooked her a meal from his garden and shared a bottle of wine from grapes he grew himself? He invests his time, love, and a small bit of money, but money he's already invested for and by himself. Where does the value lie?

 

Personally, I think it's a training exercise. Start 'em young (in terms of relationship age)

[almost famous]

Why does a man spending money on a woman "make her feel special"? What if he grew the white roses and cooked her a meal from his garden and shared a bottle of wine from grapes he grew himself? He invests his time, love, and a small bit of money, but money he's already invested for and by himself. Where does the value lie?

 

Personally, I think it's a training exercise. Start 'em young (in terms of relationship age)

 

Same idea. If a guy asked me to Starbuck's, and he was interested, he would want to pay.

[The Collector]

It's not about conscience, it's just a nice gesture to offer if so inclined. If I have asked a man out as my treat for the evening, I wouldn't feel a problem if he didn't offer to pay for anything, I would actually want to pay for everything if I asked him out and would feel happy that he accepted my offer to treat him. However I don't ask guys out unless we have established a relationship so it will take 3 or so dates to get to this point.

 

Ok, I'm not talking about how within your dating framework you might 'treat' a man after the third date or so. I'm asking you to put yourself in the place of a man who dates a few times a month, looking for that special woman, or whatever. For whatever reason, you are not getting past the first couple of dates, so each time you go out with someone new you feel you have to cover all the expenses of the other person, while that person considers themselves generous if they cover the tip or the popcorn. As someone mentioned earlier, this could be about $1000 a month. And if you don't happily pay, you won't get a second date, and you'll be called cheap or a loser. I'm asking you to honestly put yourself in that position, and tell me whether you would think it was fair.

[Taramere]

Interesting outlook on this.

 

Not wanting to feel hurt is understandable. Wanting to feel special is understandable. Making someone else give what they have in order to make you feel better, isn't though. (you in a highly generalized sense, not you specificially)

 

It'd be like if those women in the book wore the shrouds and then demanded men bow to them. Wanting to feel beautiful is one thing, asking someone else to put effort into proving to you that you're beautiful is completely different. The women in the book did not make any one else put effort into making themselves feel beautiful. The women themselves put effort into making themselves feel beautiful.

 

I can understand why having a man pay would make you feel special.. IF it was because they understood that the man was giving something he had worked hard to earn and then shared it with her. But that's not how these women portray it. They believe what he gave is no big thing, and isn't worth anything. UNLESS he doesn't give it, and then he's a loser, a pos, and white trash. What he gave is not worth returning. Yet when he doesn't give, he's not worth her time.

 

(I haven't read the book, so I went off what little you described about it.. feel free to correct me if I'm way off base about that.)

 

No, you didn't go off base with it walk. In the book nobody bowed or didn't bow to anyone according to whether their faces were covered up. I think it was more of an "if I adopt the attitude, demeanour and habits of a beautiful woman, then others will perceive me as beautiful."

 

Consider for a moment how people present themselves on this board, and the different ways in which they'll directly or indirectly project an "I'm very attractive" message to readers. It's almost like collecting bonus points. "Men always insist on paying for my dinner, buying me jewellery, taking me for holidays etc etc". It's posturing, in just the way that men posture (eg by claiming to have the most beautiful girlfriends, highest paying jobs etc).

 

I don't know how you perceive it, but what I've seen in life is that a lot of women who get bought all kinds of things and spoiled by their partners aren't actually beautiful....but what they do have is that entitlement complex that sometimes, somehow succeeds in brainwashing others into believing that the hard, scowling face of a spoiled woman is something fabulous to behold. Posh Spice, for instance.

 

There are so many weird and wonderful notions of what constitutes beauty and style, that I find the term almost meaningless. I don't need someone to buy me dinner to make me feel special....but by the same token I wouldn't need to go Dutch with a guy then later find out that his usual Saturday night consisted of him lashing out money to impress some footballer's wife type who had a glamour model figure and an IQ of 90. On the other hand, if he went Dutch with the footballer's wife too, then fair deal. He's a going Dutch kind of man, and I'm fine with that.

 

Look at a few differences in the way men have responded here. Collector has pretty much said "I don't believe in this crap that men should always pay. Go out for a drink, and take turns buying rounds." My impression is that he would apply this principle in practice - regardless of what the woman looked like.

 

On the other hand, if you have a guy complaining about women having an entitlement complex about dinner, yet pandering to that entitlement complex if the woman is attractive enough...then that's a case of arguing one principle and applying another. Chivalry isn't necessarily about paying for dinner. I'd be more impressed by a guy who's consistent in his principles and in the way he treats first dates than I would be with a guy who paid for my dinner because I met his "pretty enough" bar.

[carhill]

Same idea. If a guy asked me to Starbuck's, and he was interested, he would want to pay.

No, actually, it's not "the same". A man's life work is/can be condensed into a tender our social construct (not necessarily the man) values called "money". That's a very different tender and concept from the tender of sharing personal resources, passion and value. The former is universal, yet cold, impersonal, and non-specific. For example, a woman values the beauty of jewelry. A man with such skills makes her something from the well of "interest" he feels for her. It is special to him and valuable. But, unbeknown to him, his woman values the universal cache of "Cartier", "Tiffany", etc. and, though she may appreciate his efforts, he doesn't "make her feel special". She cannot say "Look at this beautiful Cartier xxx bought me" with everyone nodding and immediately understanding her intrinsic value to him and his generosity and interest. IMO, this goes to the essential psyche of the woman and compatibility. I'm not saying that valuing or expecting him paying is "wrong", I'm saying that, for certain men, myself being one of them, focusing on that is a sign of incompatibility. Those women won't miss me and my rose garden and well worn stove

[Walk]

I do start reciprocating asking out once it has become steady, or I suggest something to do. Once we are boyfriend and girlfriend, it's different, which is also throwing you off. The "courting" process is a different story which we've explained. It's about establishing if the male is really interested or not.

A lot of guys are going to be spooked out if a woman he is interested in asks him out, and he decides he isn't interested in her after all. They want to be the "man." You are having problems with biology and male ego, but that is the way it is. You don't have to like it, but that is the way it is. That is what is throwing you off about this, the innate male psyche. Just go with it.

I think you're refering to me, so I'll answer.

 

You're right, I don't understand your idea of the "courting" process. You state rules that I believe are unfair. I would never expect someone to do something I am unwilling to do. You state you want things a specific way, then you state you aren't expecting anything. You state that you'll suddenly change once you're bf/gf, but until then you're free to take without giving. Why do you wait until bf/gf? That's 4 or 6 months of him purchasing the bulk of the entertainment. You're 4 months in the hole to this guy now, do you feel things are equal? Do you at least appreciate the amount of money he's investing in you during that time? Seriously AF, I wouldnt' care if you felt men should pay for all outings for next 10 years while with you, as long as you could express that you honestly appreciate the effort, time, and energy that man puts into doing that for you. But in the posts you wrote, it sounds as if you really don't appreciate what the man gives during that courtship phase.

 

You percieve that men will be spooked if a woman shows interest. Reality is, they aren't. I'm not talking about being psychotic about showing interest. But casually asking a man out for a cup of coffee is still showing interest. Out of all the men I've dated, I've asked roughly half of them out the first time. I've had more bad luck with the men who asked me out, then the ones I asked out.

 

Since you refuse to ask men out, you have no idea if your theory is sound or not. You have no facts to back it up.

 

Also.. throwing money around does not make a man feel like a man. If that were true, then we'd hear stories of the men who are shop-o'holics, and girly mall shopping days. Spending money is a woman thing. Those "innate male" whatever you called it.. I don't feel you understand it at all either. If you did, you'd know men can throw money after sex without valuing the person.

 

There is far, far, more to making a man feel like a man then him just throwing down some cash. You should know (being the intelligent and wonderful woman you are) that there are more ways to make a man feel like a real man (without sex) then by just taking his money. If I choose to ask a man out, there are numerous ways to ensure he feels special, manly and great without him spending a single dime on me. On the flip side, there are numerous ways a man can make me feel special, feminine, and great without him spending a single dime on me. Making men feel like men takes some effort if you remove the cash aspect, but it's still fairly easy to do if you know how.

 

Your perceptions of the world are not mine. And although I understand how you can believe yours is the "right" way to do things, it doesn't make it "right" for everyone.

 

Like TBF stated, find a guy who is willing to pay for all outings for the next 6 months, and you're golden. I personally don't feel it's right to do that to someone, but that's MY belief.

[almost famous]

A guy wouldn't be paying $1000 a month on a woman unless he was rich. So if he's stupid and spending out of his means, that's his problem.

Dating doesn't cost that much. A few dates until a boyfriend/girlfriend thing is established is not costing a guy a freaking $1000 a month unless he is choosing to spend that much on her out of his own volition.

You're basically quibbling over a few dates which could be, as I stated before simple coffees and drinks outings, and simple and not exorbitant dinners, as in taking her to the free art museum and local flavor hamburger place. If you have a problem with treating that to a woman you are wanting to date, then you aren't really interested anyway.

[Walk]

Consider for a moment how people present themselves on this board, and the different ways in which they'll directly or indirectly project an "I'm very attractive" message to readers. It's almost like collecting bonus points. "Men always insist on paying for my dinner, buying me jewellery, taking me for holidays etc etc". It's posturing, in just the way that men posture (eg by claiming to have the most beautiful girlfriends, highest paying jobs etc).

 

I don't know how you perceive it, but what I've seen in life is that a lot of women who get bought all kinds of things and spoiled by their partners aren't actually beautiful....but what they do have is that entitlement complex that sometimes, somehow succeeds in brainwashing others into believing that the hard, scowling face of a spoiled woman is something fabulous to behold. Posh Spice, for instance.

 

There are so many weird and wonderful notions of what constitutes beauty and style, that I find the term almost meaningless.

 

I'd be more impressed by a guy who's consistent in his principles and in the way he treats first dates than I would be with a guy who paid for my dinner because I met his "pretty enough" bar.

 

Ha. I love how you think. You attack the discussion from the side.

 

Are you basically stating that some of the women are fighting so hard for this idea that men should pay because it's a posturing mechanism? A need to prove that they are wanted and valued. To legitimize an opposite belief would devalue them? i.e. If paying for dinners did not hold value, then it would remove the woman's ability to value herself? Removes her belief system and her ability to assess her own inherient self-worth.

 

You value a person for their beliefs and traits. I agree. Men who place more value on outer appearances, and whose actions prove this, are not the type of men I would wish to be with either. Interesting that you would still not be swayed by his "finding you pretty enough" on his scale. I think some would find it... an ego boost.

[Walk]

As someone mentioned earlier, this could be about $1000 a month. And if you don't happily pay, you won't get a second date, and you'll be called cheap or a loser.

A $1,000 might be a high estimate. But I know it would be pretty expensive overall, with very little retun in investment. I've gone out with friends and attempted to keep it extremely cheap and I've still spent $60 by the time we were done for the night. I felt it was worthwhile because I enjoyed the company, and I knew my friend would do the same for me. To put that kind of effort and money into someone who won't do the same in return, seems like a crazy notion.

 

I took my friend out for a celebration a while ago, and all we got were some burgers and a beer each at a local inexpensive place. With food, drink, and tip, I still spent well over 40 bucks for just us 2. That didn't include the second beer she bought, or the place we went to after that. It adds up really really quick. I always think I can go out for an evening for cheap, and no matter what it ends up being $60. Never fails. Oh, and I live in a very inexpensive area of the country.

 

If I had to do that 4-8 times a month... I'd start looking for a new hobby. At least, something in which I wouldn't have to worry whether someone else was enjoying themselves or not while I paid for it.