The Collector Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 So you're saying the answer is to always, at all costs, go dutch? Don't you think that's a little extreme? There are times my spendable cash is down. My honey treats. Other times I treat. What's the big deal? Again, I'd advise strongly against the dinner date as a first or second date. Good for established couples who can take turns paying. And you don't need to 'go dutch' if you just go for a drink. Take turns buying each other drinks.
djhall Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 Most of the women on LS (and men, for that matter) feel it is the man's place to ask a woman out. . . . The invitor, if you will, should pay for the invitee. Once in an established relationship, though, one or the other may suggest an outing. That makes sense, at least for women who won't initiate. I too feel the person who asks should expect to pay, especially since they are in control of how expensive or inexpensive the date will be. So the first few dates thing is simply an exension of being unwilling to take the intiative to do the asking until after the man has established a "prior dating relationship". Maybe I just know different men, but I hear so much talk on LS about men who are putt off by aggressive women, yet in real-life conversation the vast majority of male conversation I have overheard on the topic is about how hot it was to have an aggressive and sexually assertive woman who wanted them and wasn't shy about going after them.
The Collector Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 Plus, maybe the guy wants to treat the gal to a VERY expensive restaurant - one she could never afford - or vice versa. They couldn't go unless the one with the expensive tastes and the big bank account does the spending. Would it be better to not go at all? I tend to agree with you, Collector, but if you nit pick it to the nth degree... That's just unnecessary. In an established relationship, where the girl has proved her worth, by all means treat her and be generous. I am talking about early stages of dating, where going to flash expensive restaurants should be avoided. But if the guy is super-rich and the girl is poor, then yeah he can pay. The same should hold for the opposite situation though.
The Collector Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 That's why I keep tossing in "vice versa" in my posts. I am disturbed, though, by your "proved her worth" phrase. I think I get what you mean, but it sounds like you're buying her. Maybe you could have left that part out. It sounds kinda icky. Yeah, I think you're being very reasonable too. By 'proved her worth' I didn't mean to dehumanize 'her' and of course I have been arguing strongly against the idea of anyone 'buying' anyone. But for both sexes, good behaviour and mutual respect is what leads to doing generous, nice things for the other - because they deserve it, not just because you want to get in their pants.
The Collector Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 But what if I wanted to get in your pants? Could I just buy you a nice meal and have my way with you? No way baby, I'm no ho. Having said that, two bottles of wine and I'm anyones. But none of that cheap plonk, I'm dead classy like.
The Collector Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 So the ol' Ripple peach won't work, eh? Never heard of it. Does it come with a little umbrella? They always make me feel so special.
Star Gazer Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 This feeling has been expressed by several women in this thread, and I'm curious about the thinking behind it. Why differentiate the first few dates and treat them differently? Is there something special about the initial few dates that is unique? I think in the first few dates you're still treating one another like they're your "guest" when inviting them out. Once a sort of relationship is established, you're equals.
djhall Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 I think in the first few dates you're still treating one another like they're your "guest" when inviting them out. Once a sort of relationship is established, you're equals. I think you are right, and this seems to collaborate what the other person said. The women who won't consider paying until after the first few dates seem to be the same women who won't consider taking the initiative to ask the man out until after the first several dates. It appears it isn't just that the paying part that changes but it is more that the women feel it it is only okay for them to take inititative and participate in the dating process after the man has laid the foundation.
djhall Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 So the ol' Ripple peach won't work, eh? If Ripple is too strong for me, can I have Boone's Farm instead?
Author Walk Posted September 18, 2008 Author Posted September 18, 2008 Vonerick, I would like to know where you are meeting these women. The kind in the second paragraph. Seriously. I don't know any women like this. None. Amongst my friends, work contacts, friends of friends. Is this a regional thing? A class thing? What? Honestly, I think it is very strange that a woman, when in a relationship, would continue to expect the man to pay for everything. I'm guessing that these are younger women who do not have very good jobs? My H has a few horror stories of women just like Vonerick described that he dated in the past. And no they weren't poor or uneducated women. I know 2 women personally that are just like Vonerick described too.
Author Walk Posted September 18, 2008 Author Posted September 18, 2008 Most of the women on LS (and men, for that matter) feel it is the man's place to ask a woman out. I, on the other hand, don't feel that way and have approached a man before. When I asked out, I paid. The invitor, if you will, should pay for the invitee. Once in an established relationship, though, one or the other may suggest an outing. Nearly every woman on this thread has said that they try to make sure they try to keep it equal regarding who pays for the outings without actually keeping score. I still don't know what "once in an established relationship" means? When I hear that, I hear "after the monogamous talk". Which could be 3-8 months from the first date. Are these women waiting half a year before starting to even out the outings monetarily? If that's the case, then they're already in the hole by several months. When I started dating my H, he was very adament about paying for stuff. Half the time I'd let him, half the time I'd make a game out of how to convince him to let me pay in a way that would make him feel like he was doing me a favor. Just a game I'd play since he's such a die hard chauvinist. After months of this (and I was paying for about every third time out), the amount that he'd paid for our outings was substantially higher then the amount I had invested in it. If I had started to contribute ONLY after I felt we were in an established relationship, then his cost for dating me would have been a several thousand dollars (that's with very inexpensive dates) and no return from me. The only way I would be able to "even" out that disparity in our contributions to the relationship would be if I paid for everything for the following 4 months. I, of course, didn't. I would feel pretty shallow if I delayed repayment until I felt he'd "earned" it. It's like saying he has to "earn" his money back by spending more on me. Kind of weird thinking....
vonerik012 Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Here is an example... I dated an MBA grad who works for a large radio station. She has no children, makes good money. We met, and I paid for the first few dates. No offer from her.. We start to like each other. We start to see each other often, Things are going well. We start to see each other about 5 nights a week. She does not cook. So we go out to places to eat, we go have a few drinks, we might go to a movie, we might stay in. We did not do extravagant things, but I always paid. I did not mind either. After a while, spending 50-70 when we go out, spend 700 on a weekend trip, etc etc, after a few months I must have spent about $6000. I do not live on a budget, so I never really even thought about it. One day, she mentions how she needs to start saving more money, as she has been buying too many clothes etc. Which annoyed me. So I suggested she start to chip in for things.. Her response.. "Really? Well we never really do expensive things. I didn't even think about it." Was she a gold digger? I do not think so. Clueless, yes. Did her response annoy me, yes. If you keep paying, women do not even appreciate it, as many just expect it, or are used to it. I have learned I should be with someone in which I should never even have to bring paying up. I hate talking about money. They should sincerely offer, and the sooner, the better. it should be common sense. I should not have to ask someone to pay. Since many many men have dated women like this, I believe a woman on the fence would get priority status as a long term mate, if she just showed she understands money, and is eager to show a man she does not mind contributing. Or, if she is very traditional, and cooks often etc, that would also be different..
norajane Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Well, no women posting here have said this is a familiar scenario for them, nor anything remotely like it. So I don't know that we can really give you much insight as to why those women are so thoughtless.
vonerik012 Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Nora, No, everyone on here is trying to win an argument, so of course they would not admit it, lol. I am telling you REAL life, that almost all men can relate to. I also dated women in which everything was 50-50 from the start. I stated those women tend to have more friends, and are much easier to get along with. Less drama. So this is the better woman to choose. You can identify them more quickly, by how they view paying on dates.
norajane Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 If women who don't think about paying are also high drama and hard to get along with, why didn't that put you off? Why did you date her for months?
vonerik012 Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Nora, lol. It is always complex. I was getting good sex. She was attractive. I liked other things about her. She was smart as well. Sometimes we stay with people and are not 100% sure. I did not marry her, move in with her, or date her for years. You find some things out with time. In retrospect women who have little money, or a lot of money, and do not care about paying for things are much cooler, laid back, easier to get along with. It just flows. Women who expect free meals and entertainment seldom magically change after 2 or 3 dates.
almost famous Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 No, the point is that if the dating practice of paying if you ask someone out is really angering you that much and you're feeling like you're being taken for a ride/sugar daddy then you have issues. Dude, you ask her out, you pay. You want to get to know her.....don't you want to make sure you don't make a bad impression? You want this woman....do it right, dude. No one's "expecting" anything, it's just that if you want a second and third date, you want to pay. You ask, you pay. Like I said, it's not rocket science. No one is "expecting" anything, we are hoping that if you ask someone out you are going to do the polite thing. This includes gays....so there 'ya go, Von. It is only when people make statements like the above, when others come off as bitter in their rebuttal. The question at hand is more of a theoretical one, than not being able to afford 10 dollars. What if I said "Well, if you are a woman and can't spend 5 minutes to do my dishes, well then you are a lazy loser". See how dumb that sounds? The point some are making is, many women today only want to hold onto old, outdated, traditional gender roles when it benefits them.
vonerik012 Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 I can argue the tax code is unfair, and still pay my taxes, right? Well that is similar to my point here. I really do not care about the money. I am just saying, women who sincerely offer, are typically much better women to enter into a relationship with. Those who do not also can be fun in other ways.
almost famous Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Most women like myself do offer. I'll also offer to get popcorn or something if we go to a movie before/after dinner since he got the ticket, even if it's a first date.
The Collector Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 No one's "expecting" anything, it's just that if you want a second and third date, you want to pay. You don't see any expectation in just that one sentence? Sure, you don't expect a man to pay. But he's toast if he doesn't. Gotcha.
The Collector Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Most women like myself do offer. I'll also offer to get popcorn or something if we go to a movie before/after dinner since he got the ticket, even if it's a first date. Can you not put yourself in the man's shoes? Imagine - please - that you have bought a man dinner and drinks, then there are two movie tickets you buy... and his conscience is clear if he buys you some popcorn? You'd see no problem with that? You'd think that was fair and logical?
nowhereman82 Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 Walk, I'm giving my personal perspective so that people don't get their knickers in a knot. Here's what seems to work for me: First date: The man always pays. I don't pursue men or ask them out. The only time I pay is if I don't want a second date. This means I pay the whole shebang. Second date: I pay, regardless. Then it repeats from there. Having said that, I don't date men who can't afford this type of arrangement. I like my lifestyle and intend to keep it that way. This is what I was going to comment on before I read Trial's post. I understand the rules and I pay. I also agree the asker should pay. BUT there is a societal expectation that a woman never asks a man out and the man is suppose to ask. Not this is not always the case but the general mentality and most women that do eventually ask the guy...the first thing that goes through their head is the fact that women shouldn't be asking. I believe those are old school beliefs and frankly as a man I would love to catch the eye of a woman and be pursued by them. For the same reason women like it. I want to feel special. Even if I decline them. It's still flattering regardless. It's also an easy out. Women either ask guys out or they don't. And if they don't have the "balls" to ask a man out that they are interested in, then can always brush it off as "women don't ask" That's just my two pennies being rubbed together.
nowhereman82 Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 You don't see any expectation in just that one sentence? Sure, you don't expect a man to pay. But he's toast if he doesn't. Gotcha. totally agree with this. Women should REALLY take a card look at that mentality. You don't expect it....but they are not getting a second date. So I pay for the friggen meal and drinks *shrug* But if you are doing a lot of dating, this gets pretty expensive quick!
vonerik012 Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 Most women like myself do offer. I'll also offer to get popcorn or something if we go to a movie before/after dinner since he got the ticket, even if it's a first date. LOL,, This is what really makes me laugh. I can picture this scenario. Take Almost Famous out to dinner, and drinks.. Drop $100. Buy move tickets $15. Then, in front of everyone, when waiting for popcorn, Almost opens her purse and says "here is money for popcorn" handing you a five, completely emasculating you in the process. Or as another girl paid the valet 2 dollars after a $600 date. If you are only going to offer to pay for popcorn, please, please just keep the money in your purse, lol..
djhall Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 My mom used to like "Strawberry Hill." lol Whatever'll do the trick, baby! Why, are you trying to get me drunk luvmy2ns? Not that I mind, but I'm sure it isn't necessary.
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