Dealing with the BW

[whichwayisup]

If I have to call in Social Services,

 

That isn't your call.

 

If anything ALL of you should do family counselling and he should go with his (ex) wife. If anyone is going to call SS, it should be HIM not you. You doing it just looks like sour grapes and trying to take her children away from her..

[child_of_isis]

Truthfully, I think if she was such a horrible abusive bitch, everybody would be going through major hell right now.

 

It sounds like everybody is pretty happy except for W.

 

I see what 'abusers' do during separation & divorce, & she doesn't seem to be following the script of one.

 

Well he can stop her from seeing the kids if he goes to court and proves she's unhealthy to be around the kids. But, the judge is going to have sympathy for her because she is the betrayed spouse who now has to deal with her husband not in her life, and has to accept the OW around her flesh and blood, being stepmom. She's had NO say in it nor does she now. It must rip her heart out knowing that her own kids have another "Mom" in her life..

 

When is their divorce final?

[child_of_isis]

At the most, a judge would order supervised visitation & counseling for her with continued follow ups to check her progress. As soon as progress is noted, extended visits, then on to full shared parenting.

 

It's standard procedure.

 

Well he can stop her from seeing the kids if he goes to court and proves she's unhealthy to be around the kids. But, the judge is going to have sympathy for her because she is the betrayed spouse who now has to deal with her husband not in her life, and has to accept the OW around her flesh and blood, being stepmom. She's had NO say in it nor does she now. It must rip her heart out knowing that her own kids have another "Mom" in her life..

 

When is their divorce final?

[whichwayisup]

I agree. And I really think her place (the wife) is coming from pain and heartache, so she's reacting and doing stuff out of desparation. She's gone through hell and back and her husband has been gaslighting her, making it worse by NOT divorcing her. I still don't understand why he went on with his life with someone else and didn't finish things perminately with his wife. It's just cruel to do to the mother of his children. She is WHO she is because of his affair, his actions.

[child_of_isis]

Well it's cruel to the children too. It's obvious from the post that they are being put in the middle. On one side is OW creating the perfect family life, on the other is mom reduced to a miserable lump living a senior life.

 

Can you imagine the guilt & conflict they feel?

 

If those children were raised in an abusive family situation, they would be too fearful & sullen to be having a good time at dad's....let alone getting on with OW.

 

Most likely their home life was withdrawn due to the A & conflict of the parents. That's why everyone retreats to their designated areas. But it probably wasn't always like that.

 

It was probably at one time a happy home.

 

I agree. And I really think her place (the wife) is coming from pain and heartache, so she's reacting and doing stuff out of desparation. She's gone through hell and back and her husband has been gaslighting her, making it worse by NOT divorcing her. I still don't understand why he went on with his life with someone else and didn't finish things perminately with his wife. It's just cruel to do to the mother of his children. She is WHO she is because of his affair, his actions.

[OWoman]

If your MM's wife is as you've described her have you ever wondered what he saw in her in the first place?

 

I've asked him this, directly. But his counsellor had gotten there first, so he had an answer: he was a kid at the time. She was an older woman, going through "tough times" (he later found out she was M, when her H came to his door and threatened him). He thought he could make things better for her. Her entire family are broken - her mother was institutionalised, one of her sisters has been and the other in and out of therapy, with a very dysfunctional family life. MM thought she was just traumatised from such a background, and tried to save her.

 

(Yes, there is a whole back story about him and "older women" but that's something he's dealt with in his counselling, and going into it would be TMI.)

 

This "knight in shining armour" thing does still rear its ugly head sometimes, and I have to draw his attention to it when that happens and get him to climb down off his steed and take off his armour and stop being such a prick. He can joke about it now, and I guess living with someone now who would whack any caped crusader who assumed she couldn't cope with her life has made him see that it's offensive and insulting and not gallant or noble or whatever it was he imagined.

[pelicanpreacher]

That isn't your call.

 

If anything ALL of you should do family counselling and he should go with his (ex) wife. If anyone is going to call SS, it should be HIM not you. You doing it just looks like sour grapes and trying to take her children away from her..

 

Here here! OWoman, please don't take any caustic steps that might end up backfiring in the sense that your MM might get dragged down with the consequences along with his wife. Your MM should never have put you in the middle of his divorce drama to begin with and, since his children are part of that issue, then it might be better if you take a step back, inform MM of his need to step up and face his own music all by himself, and allow all this chaos surrounding this situation to get settled with minimal intervention on your part.

 

You said in one of your earlier posts that when your MM started to lean on you to discuss the abuse problems he was experiencing with his wife that you put an immediate halt to it and directed him to see a therapist, remember? I think you should maintain that same philosophy, at least until the divorce is final, before you step to the forefront to establish boundaries for his stbx of your own! Unitl then, hold to the thought that "every dog has his day"!

[pelicanpreacher]

I've asked him this, directly. But his counsellor had gotten there first, so he had an answer: he was a kid at the time. She was an older woman, going through "tough times" (he later found out she was M, when her H came to his door and threatened him). He thought he could make things better for her. Her entire family are broken - her mother was institutionalised, one of her sisters has been and the other in and out of therapy, with a very dysfunctional family life. MM thought she was just traumatised from such a background, and tried to save her.

 

(Yes, there is a whole back story about him and "older women" but that's something he's dealt with in his counselling, and going into it would be TMI.)

 

This "knight in shining armour" thing does still rear its ugly head sometimes, and I have to draw his attention to it when that happens and get him to climb down off his steed and take off his armour and stop being such a prick. He can joke about it now, and I guess living with someone now who would whack any caped crusader who assumed she couldn't cope with her life has made him see that it's offensive and insulting and not gallant or noble or whatever it was he imagined.

 

OMG! This bit of background about his wife being married prior to pursuing an affair with your BF(currently her MH) is so delicious I've swallowed my tongue! The Karma!...THE KARMA!

[Lizzie60]

You described my last ex's ex to a T.. she was a nut case.. but we had to deal with it.. including the kids.. that was the sad part.. (but since I'm not with him anymore.. this is no longer my problem)

 

In your case, I would have made sure that the kids had an umbrella.. that's a fairly simple solution.. or a rain suit..

 

Nothing, except time, will make her any less crazier.. These dorks.. all they want really is a reason to confront the H or the OW... for revenge.

[OWoman]

The point is, in spite of what you think of her philosophies and behaviors, from her perspective, not only have you taken "her man", but you are also taking over her role as mother, in a way that she has no control over. When he leaves the kids with you, and when she has to deal with you to get them, she is in a maddening position, out of her control, of being subsidiary to you as the "main" mother, and if you don't think that her grief over losing her position as wife is enough, you can't even imagine what that is probably doing to her.

 

Since my wife and I separated, we've had an informal agreement (and although we didn't formalize it in our divorce, we still do it) that if one of us needed to put the kids in someone else's care overnight, that we would let the other parent know, and give the other parent right of first refusal to take care of the kids during that time.

 

Now, all along, we have been stunningly cooperative, and neither of us would ever turn that into a situation where we would drag the kids into it "Your mother said she didn't want to take care of you tonight..." or anything like that. But it has helped us each maintain our sense of control and importance as parents, even when the kids are with the other parent. And it especially helped me in the early days, when she started living with with her OM, to not feel like I was out of control of my role as father. It required a sensitivity on her part, which I greatly appreciate.

 

I realize you don't care about the wife, and that your focus is on making things smoother for the kids, which is decent. Do you understand - no matter how much you don't like or agree with her, that she has these strong feelings, BOTH around her usurped role as wife and also as mother? There may not be much you can do about the wife role (other than not rubbing her nose in it) but since it's her role as mother that probably most affects the kids anyway, maybe with some sensitivity on your part and that of your MM/BF, you can have some positive effect, or at least minimize the negative effects.

 

For example, if your BF is going to be out of town, maybe he could contact her in advance, and give her the opportunity to have the kids with her. Then he could pre-arrange the exchange and all that, so you would have a minimal role in the process. If you realize that her sensitivity is to being replaced as a mother and the lack of control she feels about that, then you (and he, really - he'll have to take the lead here) may be able to avoid creating "hot-spots" and soothe things for the kids.

 

Trimmer - they each have a list of when the other will be away, as well as any planned "family events" (such as holidays with the kids, christenings, funerals, weddings...) where one or the other has a "claim" to the kids (that's an inappropriate word - but I can't think just now how better to put it. Some reason that the kids should be with them rather than the other parent for that time, that any reasonable person would agree to). She had the information, but clearly only realised it belatedly.

 

Now you may bristle, if this offends your ego: "Why should I have to minimize my role? I'm part of his life. I'm not going to run around hiding. It's her problem to deal with..." I would understand feeling this way, but do remember what you have said: it becomes a problem for the kids. Even as you feel adversarial and negative about her, if you attempt to understand where her anger and grief is coming from, then you can use that to help benefit the kids. If that's truly your goal, then that should help motivate you, and if you keep your focus on that, it will help you set aside any bruise that you might feel to your ego.

 

Believe me, I have no such ego issues. I've been through the step-parenting thing before and know that what works best, ultimately, is to avoid drama and keep the kids' best interests uppermost. And I have kids of my own. Any ego issues I may have had have been beaten out of me long ago by life.

 

Follow up question: what illness did they get from being out in the rain? You do know that colds aren't caught from being in the cold, yes?

 

I worked in public health long enough to know that respiratory tract infections - like any other infection - require two things: exposure to the pathogen, and a compromised immune system. While it's true that being in the cold ON ITS OWN can't make you ill, if you've been exposed to viruses / bacteria and have them in your system, then any stress which depletes the ability of your immune system to fight off that infection can result in your becoming ill.

[OWoman]

Well he can stop her from seeing the kids if he goes to court and proves she's unhealthy to be around the kids. But, the judge is going to have sympathy for her because she is the betrayed spouse who now has to deal with her husband not in her life, and has to accept the OW around her flesh and blood, being stepmom. She's had NO say in it nor does she now. It must rip her heart out knowing that her own kids have another "Mom" in her life..

 

When is their divorce final?

 

No one wants her to stop seeing the kids (well, the kids do, sometimes but usually they change their minds after talking out whatever it is that's bothering them). But it needs to be in a way that isn't harmful for them - physically, emotionally or socially.

 

The divorce should be done and dusted in about 8 weeks or so, assuming she doesn't change her mind about the informal agreement on the financial settlement. If she does, it could be another three months.

[OWoman]

Physical danger? How did you arrive at physical danger?

 

From her? Or others? This is a really big jump.

 

She has a history of physical violence - to MM, not yet to the kids. But she's been telling the boy how like his father he is, belittling him and haranguing him and humiliating him in public just as she used to do with MM (they look very alike). She throws things around and breaks things when she drinks too much. There is a risk. The kids are teens, they're sussed enough not to hang around when she's out of control but on the other hand she's driven a car at speed into a stone wall during an argument with MM (lucky for airbags...) so there are situations where that could happen.

 

Why didn't you just send them out with umbrellas? I think you might be overreacting a bit.

 

They had umbrellas. But umbrellas are pretty useless in high wind and torrential rain. I found both umbrellas in the bin - shredded and broken - when I went to take the rubbish out the other day. Useful as weapons, perhaps, but nothing else.

[OWoman]

That isn't your call.

 

It absolutely is, if it comes to that. In my home country, it's a crime NOT to alert the relevant agency if you even suspect a child is in danger or is being abused or neglected. If the situation warranted intervention and I didn't alert them, I'd be guilty of a crime, legally and - more importantly - morally. It's everybody's duty to look out for kids.

 

If anything ALL of you should do family counselling and he should go with his (ex) wife. If anyone is going to call SS, it should be HIM not you. You doing it just looks like sour grapes and trying to take her children away from her..

 

As I said before, I've suggested counselling as a family, but the kids are not keen. They're currently seeing counsellors at school, though less frequently than previously, at their request. BW refused to go near counselling with MM, though the kids hinted earlier that she was considering IC. Not sure if anything came of that as it's a no-go area for them to discuss with her.

 

Believe me, I have no reason to want to take her kids away from her. What I want most is for them to have a good, healthy relationship where they spend at least some time with her, both for their good and for MM and I to have some alone-time too. He's struggling with the adjustment from "being a couple" (with me) to "being a family" (with all of us) as his mode of operation is to make things right for everyone else, and he quickly gets depleted with giving, giving, giving. It's only during our alone-time that he can be off-duty to recharge, and it's taking its toll.

[OWoman]

I agree. And I really think her place (the wife) is coming from pain and heartache, so she's reacting and doing stuff out of desparation. She's gone through hell and back and her husband has been gaslighting her, making it worse by NOT divorcing her. I still don't understand why he went on with his life with someone else and didn't finish things perminately with his wife. It's just cruel to do to the mother of his children. She is WHO she is because of his affair, his actions.

 

Well it's cruel to the children too. It's obvious from the post that they are being put in the middle. On one side is OW creating the perfect family life, on the other is mom reduced to a miserable lump living a senior life.

 

Can you imagine the guilt & conflict they feel?

 

If those children were raised in an abusive family situation, they would be too fearful & sullen to be having a good time at dad's....let alone getting on with OW.

 

Most likely their home life was withdrawn due to the A & conflict of the parents. That's why everyone retreats to their designated areas. But it probably wasn't always like that.

 

It was probably at one time a happy home.

 

She was how she is long before the A. The A happened in the context of a very broken family, completely fractured and separate, atomised and abusive. MM's family, friends and colleagues have all told me they can't understand why he didn't have an A sooner.

 

I've been sorting through old family photographs. There are NONE of a happy family life. The kids look shell-shocked, MM looks hollow and depressed, BW looks variously hostile, vacant or sullen. There are a couple where she is smiling - a set, tight smile with her mouth only and not her eyes - but no one else smiles, and no one stands close to her (aside from a couple of her holding frightened looking babies). Holiday snaps are the worst. They look like hostages pleading with their captives to be put out of their misery. It's heartbreaking to see.

[OWoman]

Here here! OWoman, please don't take any caustic steps that might end up backfiring in the sense that your MM might get dragged down with the consequences along with his wife. Your MM should never have put you in the middle of his divorce drama to begin with and, since his children are part of that issue, then it might be better if you take a step back, inform MM of his need to step up and face his own music all by himself, and allow all this chaos surrounding this situation to get settled with minimal intervention on your part.

 

You said in one of your earlier posts that when your MM started to lean on you to discuss the abuse problems he was experiencing with his wife that you put an immediate halt to it and directed him to see a therapist, remember? I think you should maintain that same philosophy, at least until the divorce is final, before you step to the forefront to establish boundaries for his stbx of your own! Unitl then, hold to the thought that "every dog has his day"!

 

Peli, believe me, I am not taking up any cudgels on MM's behalf. Nor am I getting into any D issues. This is not about him - this is about the kids. Somehow, I want the kids to register with BW as people in their own right, not just as chesspieces in a Divorce match. I want her to consider them, to factor them in as living breathing people not just mouths to feed or battles to win. I want her to know what homework they have and what food they prefer and what movies they enjoy. Not because it matters to me but because it matters to them.

 

I can't MAKE her. But perhaps somewhere there's something that's preventing her, that I can shift which can allow that to happen. It's a difficult balance - and not always in the same place for everyone. I've been here only a few weeks and I'm stlll very much feeling my way as well as establishing my own boundaries. So any input that can help shift things into a workable, sustainable and healthy arrangement is most welcome!

[pelicanpreacher]

Peli, believe me, I am not taking up any cudgels on MM's behalf. Nor am I getting into any D issues. This is not about him - this is about the kids. Somehow, I want the kids to register with BW as people in their own right, not just as chesspieces in a Divorce match. I want her to consider them, to factor them in as living breathing people not just mouths to feed or battles to win. I want her to know what homework they have and what food they prefer and what movies they enjoy. Not because it matters to me but because it matters to them.

 

I can't MAKE her. But perhaps somewhere there's something that's preventing her, that I can shift which can allow that to happen. It's a difficult balance - and not always in the same place for everyone. I've been here only a few weeks and I'm stlll very much feeling my way as well as establishing my own boundaries. So any input that can help shift things into a workable, sustainable and healthy arrangement is most welcome!

 

Oooooooo I'm sucking my teeth in a worried grit on that one! I can almost see your mind working in empathy for her but beware the mouth of a growling dog for it's warning IS a precursor to it's bite. You've taken it's bone and it still wants it back!

 

Right now you are the victor and she is the vanquished and that will be her mindset for a very long time. I know your efforts are intended to assuage her fears and pain but, believe me, conversations on that level are best left unsaid for the time being.

[OWoman]

You described my last ex's ex to a T.. she was a nut case.. but we had to deal with it.. including the kids.. that was the sad part.. (but since I'm not with him anymore.. this is no longer my problem)

 

In your case, I would have made sure that the kids had an umbrella.. that's a fairly simple solution.. or a rain suit..

 

Nothing, except time, will make her any less crazier.. These dorks.. all they want really is a reason to confront the H or the OW... for revenge.

 

Lizzie - please advise on how you get a teenager to wear a rain suit? I know I tried unsuccessfully with my own kids for years - it's just "way too uncool" and so when the words formed in my mouth with MM's kids I knew even before I uttered them what the response would be. And was.

 

They did try umbrellas, but those didn't last long, or help much...

 

But it's not just the rain issue. There are other things, like dragging them round with her shopping (for unnecessary stuff, that they're not even interested in) until late, then making them go straight to bed so that they can't do their homework. Or not signing and returning forms so that they get into trouble at school. "Forgetting" to pay in time so that they miss out on sports events - then getting angry with them for not doing better.

 

In the past MM did all that. So now, when they're not with him (us), it shows up.

[OWoman]

Oooooooo I'm sucking my teeth in a worried grit on that one! I can almost see your mind working in empathy for her but beware the mouth of a growling dog for it's warning IS a precursor to it's bite. You've taken it's bone and it still wants it back!

 

Right now you are the victor and she is the vanquished and that will be her mindset for a very long time. I know your efforts are intended to assuage her fears and pain but, believe me, conversations on that level are best left unsaid for the time being.

 

Ha! It has nothing to do with empathy for her, either. It's about the kids.

[pelicanpreacher]

Lizzie - please advise on how you get a teenager to wear a rain suit? I know I tried unsuccessfully with my own kids for years - it's just "way too uncool" and so when the words formed in my mouth with MM's kids I knew even before I uttered them what the response would be. And was.

 

They did try umbrellas, but those didn't last long, or help much...

 

But it's not just the rain issue. There are other things, like dragging them round with her shopping (for unnecessary stuff, that they're not even interested in) until late, then making them go straight to bed so that they can't do their homework. Or not signing and returning forms so that they get into trouble at school. "Forgetting" to pay in time so that they miss out on sports events - then getting angry with them for not doing better.

 

In the past MM did all that. So now, when they're not with him (us), it shows up.

 

If I were a cynic I'd almost come to believe that she purposely postitioned you to leave her children in the rain to diminish their admirement of you in their eyes with the appending admonishment that it's really she who loves and cares about them for "she would never do the harm the way you did"! If you know that she's apt to play mind games like this with you and the children it is best that you speak to them about your concerns and let them know that some of your actions are meant to appease her demands and make the divorce as smooth and comfortable for everyone as possible. Do not, however, accede to any other demands that might cause harm to her children for I'll bet my bottom dollar she'll use every instance of these circumstances against you when vying for their custody!

 

Frankly, OWoman, I'm surprised that you, of all people, would cow down to such obviously transparent manipulations. You might want to let your MM know and that he should tell her that you've documented every outrageous demand she's made and every mistreatment she's initiatied against the children to put her on notice that her behavior is under close scrutinity.

[child_of_isis]

What came to my mind was...if they cheat with you, they will cheat on you.

 

OMG! This bit of background about his wife being married prior to pursuing an affair with your BF(currently her MH) is so delicious I've swallowed my tongue! The Karma!...THE KARMA!

[OWoman]

What came to my mind was...if they cheat with you, they will cheat on you.

 

So, CoI, how long do you give me before I take a couple of OMs on the side, then?

[OWoman]

If I were a cynic I'd almost come to believe that she purposely postitioned you to leave her children in the rain to diminish their admirement of you in their eyes with the appending admonishment that it's really she who loves and cares about them for "she would never do the harm the way you did"! If you know that she's apt to play mind games like this with you and the children it is best that you speak to them about your concerns and let them know that some of your actions are meant to appease her demands and make the divorce as smooth and comfortable for everyone as possible. Do not, however, accede to any other demands that might cause harm to her children for I'll bet my bottom dollar she'll use every instance of these circumstances against you when vying for their custody!

 

Frankly, OWoman, I'm surprised that you, of all people, would cow down to such obviously transparent manipulations. You might want to let your MM know and that he should tell her that you've documented every outrageous demand she's made and every mistreatment she's initiatied against the children to put her on notice that her behavior is under close scrutinity.

 

There is already a file with his lawyer, with pages of evidence of "unreasonable behaviour" in case it's needed in court. It would be easy enough to update it with more recent events. But we're all hoping it doesn't come to that - though my approach is, hope for the best but plan for the worst.

[pelicanpreacher]

What came to my mind was...if they cheat with you, they will cheat on you.

 

Actually, that post was directed at MW for, though I don't believe the MM was a serial cheater, I believe that OWoman did post somewhere that MW did in fact cheat in her current marriage as well!

[child_of_isis]

Why is it your job to fix everybody & everything? Usually, once you become the 'fixer' in the family, everything becomes your responsibility. And when it is not fixed you'll bare the blame.

 

At this rate you will be exhausted in a few short years.

 

 

 

I can't MAKE her. But perhaps somewhere there's something that's preventing her, that I can shift which can allow that to happen.

[child_of_isis]

I say 2 years. At the max 4.

 

So, CoI, how long do you give me before I take a couple of OMs on the side, then?