eskimojoe Posted September 7, 2008 Posted September 7, 2008 Hi all. I'm trudging up to my keyboard to write this because I'm scared and hurt and worried that I'm running out of options. I don't know where to start...as soon as I start thinking my mind and heart rips off into a million directions and scenarios. My W and I have been separated for six months. We live apart and share care on our two girls. We still see each other almost every week because we go to the same church and gratefully, that community is supportive and non-judgemental. Three years ago, I realized that I had a problem with internet pr0n. I knew I had a lot of anger issues with my FOO and I used pr0n to mask it over. Unfortunately, it's had a devastating effect on my wife's self-esteem and our previously fantastic sex life gradually went down the tubes. I got myself into counselling and a 12-step program and made promises. Soon after I started counselling and the 12-step, I confessed to having gone to a prostitute three times after being married three years (six years prior). I told her out of guilt and a weak sense of trying to be a people pleaser and win her back with "honesty". I had stopped of my own accord even before telling her. In hindsight, telling her was not a good move. Although she was happy that I was in therapy and a program, I think that destroyed her. We only went to counselling together once and she said that if I looked at porn again, I would have to move out. Actually, the agreement was a bit more comprehensive. -------------------------------------------------------- Agreement between me and W A set of reciprocal and agreed rules, covenants and behaviours No internet or other porn material in our house. No one else minds our children without the other's knowledge and agreement No sexual partners, paid or otherwise, in our home, or around our children No lies, petty or otherwise We work together, strictly, to improve our financial situation. Commitment to a budget. H continues 12 step work and counselling. W will continue with Anon 12 step program Any breaking of this agreement and it is the breaker's responsibility to move out. Not the person wronged. -------------------------------------------------------- This is what she brought to the first and only counselling session with the therapist who specialized with people who struggle with sexual brokenness. She never went back. I've asked her three times to go to counselling and she's always been reluctant. Anyway, in Sep 2007, after two years, some good internal progress for me on FOO issues and having stopped pr0n cold turkey, I slipped. I went online after a stressful situation. We'd never really spoken much about my problem prior to that and we hadn't had sex in all that time. We had just bought a new bed and a new house and things had been looking rosy. Anyway...she decided to invoke the agreement in Nov 2007. I reluctantly moved out in Feb 2008. There was no discussion about a context for the separation. She didn't want to talk about what I could do to restore the relationship; she thinks I'll just do that. She thinks that everything I say is a lie and she frequently assumes I'm thinking things which aren't true. She often puts words into my mouth. I ask her what can I do to regain trust and all she says is "I don't know". I can see her acting out of a lot of fear and anger, most of which I've caused and I want to save this marriage. But jeez louise, she's being such a perfectionistic control freak, I'm having a hard time mustering up any kind of love or confidence to give things a chance. After she dropped the separation bombshell on me in Nov 07, I had a massive spiritual experience and the massive hot coal of anger and resentment in my chest about my childhood got taken away. Call it God, or being able to give it up, or surrender. But it was real freedom. Gradually over the last six months and for the first time, I can clearly see the carnage of my marriage and life. It's really messy, and I'm still not perfect, but that's okay. She's still really angry. She wants to do financial settlement. She thinks she's been clear with me on her intentions on leaving, but I know there's been a few real glimmers. She's said she's never coming back to me, but only when I brought it up. And she's said that to my mom and her mom, but only when pressed. And she's never used the word divorce. But she's really, really stubborn, can compartmentalize her emotions very well, and argue very well. All I know is just because I f*ck up the marriage, it doesn't give me the right to give up. Sometimes I think I've put in so much work on myself and she's basically giving up on me. If I decided to give up on me like she's giving up on me, I'd be dead. I ask myself would I want to be friends with someone who gave up on me. It's so hard to stay focused or know what to do. I'm trying not to give up on the marriage. I'm trying not to...but what to do????? (*sob*) Esky
sedgwick Posted September 7, 2008 Posted September 7, 2008 What's a FOO? And why can't you just type the word "porn?" I have never understood why women have an issue with porn, as long as their SO is still giving them sex. I'm a woman and I love porn! But then I also love sex that has to do with multiple orifices, and I take it that's fairly rare. (I asked my ex frequently to explore my, er, other orifices, and he always refused. It made me feel so unattractive and like he thought I was a freak, and not in a good way.) Prostitutes, on the other hand -- that's not okay. Fantasy sex with strangers is one thing; real sex with strangers is quite another. You put your wife's health at risk by doing that, and that's unacceptable behavior.
Ronni_W Posted September 7, 2008 Posted September 7, 2008 Esky, You cannot, on your own, resolve all the issues and heal all the wounds in your marriage. Your wife, unfortunately, does not seem to recognize her role and responsibility in that...or she simply has no desire for it. At this stage, it doesn't seem that you will so much be "giving up" on your marriage, as accepting that your wife is no longer interested or invested in it. Ideally, she will want individual counseling to get over her own hurt, anger, etc. But it sounds as if she cannot or will not explore her feelings too far. There's really nothing anyone else can do about it. I'm not sure it is accurate to call it a "bombshell" when one has two years notice of what has to happen before it will be "dropped". You unloaded that one on yourself, whether or not you really believed your wife would hold you accountable for the agreement you consciously and willingly, I assume, entered into. You were not anyone else's victim in Nov 2007. You reneged on your own deal, regardless under what circumstances. I wish you continued success with your 12-step program and 'Family Of Origin' work...both are tough but can be extremely worthwhile and healing. I would say, really, what to do is continue focusing on your Self and start creating a happier future for you (and your kids, if you have them.) (((hugs)))
Mr. Lucky Posted September 7, 2008 Posted September 7, 2008 All I know is just because I f*ck up the marriage, it doesn't give me the right to give up. But it does give her the right. This may be tough love, but just because someone marries you "for better or worse" doesn't give you the right to explore the depths of what "worse" can mean. Here's an honest question for you - if she had slept with 3 different men in your first 3 years of marriage, would you still be hanging in there ??? Mr. Lucky
Author eskimojoe Posted September 7, 2008 Author Posted September 7, 2008 Thanks Ronni, Esky, You cannot, on your own, resolve all the issues and heal all the wounds in your marriage. Your wife, unfortunately, does not seem to recognize her role and responsibility in that...or she simply has no desire for it. That's probably the hardest part to accept. Even though I know I put the wounds there, it's so frustrating that she won't even look at her responsibility. And then my anger at that makes me do things that pushes her away. You reneged on your own deal, regardless under what circumstances. Yeah...I know. I still have two girls to raise in a co-parenting relationship with my W. I wish you continued success with your 12-step program and 'Family Of Origin' work...both are tough but can be extremely worthwhile and healing. I would say, really, what to do is continue focusing on your Self and start creating a happier future for you (and your kids, if you have them.) Thanks. I'm still going and alot of my FOO issues are resolved and I'm backing it up with involvement with the Mankind Project, which is an organisation dedicated to helping men rediscover their sacred mission as true masculine men. I've had some massive chats with my mom and dad lately and my father agreed, amazingly, coming from Canada to visit me in Australia for a month in January. I'm looking forward to that. Jireh
Author eskimojoe Posted September 7, 2008 Author Posted September 7, 2008 What's a FOO? And why can't you just type the word "porn?" Hi Sedgwick, FOO=Family of Origin I'm used to posting on boards that have filters on for porn. I suppose this board doesn't. If I'm looking at porn without her...that's the issue for her. Part of it, at least.
badbrit Posted September 8, 2008 Posted September 8, 2008 Sorry, not going to give you the great support you want. Butter it up however you want, 12 step programme etc but frankly I am not surprised she does not want to know as I wouldnt either. Sorry dude but hooking up with hookers, that is pretty bad and definetly on the list of things people should not forgive, coupled with what sounds like a very bad porn problem I think you should move on and let her live her life with someone who would not do things that are emotionally so damaging and hurtful
Ronni_W Posted September 8, 2008 Posted September 8, 2008 I know I put the wounds there, it's so frustrating that she won't even look at her responsibility. And then my anger at that makes me do things Esky, I am correct in assuming that you mean you are frustrated that she won't take responsibility for HEALING those wounds? Cos she has no healthy/appropriate responsibility in having created them...yes? Is it possible that your anger at her stated lack of interest in reconciling is somewhat misdirected? Is it your self-anger about whatever you define as your underlying issues -- lack of self-control, addictive tendencies, whatever? And/or anger at your FoO for its part in your adult maladaptive thoughts and behaviours? For not teaching you effective and appropriate life and coping skills? Cos I do think that does happen for most people who do intensive FoO work. (But then we get clear that it's not all on them...that we alone are responsible for our dumb decisions as adults...and we forgive the FoO...right? ) Anyway. I'll send some hugs and good stuff from Canada, with your mom and dad...and maybe you can send me back a Fosters and shrimp off the 'barbie? Cheers, mate!
TrustInYourself Posted September 8, 2008 Posted September 8, 2008 Ugh yeah. Screw hookers and your hand rather than your wife? Haha..that is bleak.
Author eskimojoe Posted September 9, 2008 Author Posted September 9, 2008 But it does give her the right. This may be tough love, but just because someone marries you "for better or worse" doesn't give you the right to explore the depths of what "worse" can mean. Here's an honest question for you - if she had slept with 3 different men in your first 3 years of marriage, would you still be hanging in there ??? Mr. Lucky If I did something that pushed her away such that she slept with three men, then the same thought applies. Just because I f*ck up, it doesn't give me the right to give up. The thought was not directed at her, it's just a reminder to myself that I can't give up on myself and let myself go because I've dropped to a new low.
Author eskimojoe Posted September 9, 2008 Author Posted September 9, 2008 Sorry, not going to give you the great support you want. Thanks for the honesty. I suppose that's all I can really expect, but that's enough.
Mr. Lucky Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 If I did something that pushed her away such that she slept with three men, then the same thought applies. Just because I f*ck up, it doesn't give me the right to give up. The thought was not directed at her, it's just a reminder to myself that I can't give up on myself and let myself go because I've dropped to a new low. EJ, you should never give up on yourself. But at least part of your post seemed to ask "Why can't she see and respond to how hard I'm working?". While every one has different boundaries, there are some injuries from which a relationship can't recover and, in her eyes, you seem to have crossed that line. I hope your personal growth continues to go well. Keep posting... Mr. Lucky
Final Girl Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 I'm not sure I understand..your wife and you had an agreement. She trusted you to keep it. You didn't. So she asked you to leave. Then you say you don't the right to give up...but you did give up, the minute you chose porn and prostitutes over your family. If it is too late for your marriage you should accept your wife's decision and move on...if you don't give up and instead pester her, you might have even more to worry about!!!
div2wice Posted September 9, 2008 Posted September 9, 2008 Wow, reading your post was like you were in our house... My husband also has an addiction with p*rn, I believe stemming from his childhood... He realizes this is a problem and has done everything possible to stop it, however I still worry about it constantly. God says when you look at someone in lust, you've committed adultery. Its a hard thing for men to understand but having been cheated on physically, I can honestly say it doesn't feel much different than having your husband look at p*rn. It hurts like MAD. It is possible to save your relationship. The programs you've done in the past have not helped. You need to find a stronger, possibly more aggressive program/therapy. I know that you realize its wrong and that you love your wife otherwise you would not continue to fight the urge so much -- my husband has the same thing. He says he hates looking at that crap, and hates what it does to me, but sometimes he just finds himself doing it. Would you believe p*rn addictions are EXTREMELY common in the CHristian home? Have you ever considered contacting a man from church - either a decon or a person older than you, to be your accountability partner? They have software on computers that show the "manager" (or accountability partner) EVERYTHING you look at. Boy, thats a way to curb it, knowing a man that you respect at your church will know and see everything you look at. I highly recommend it, it works for my husband. When she is ready, you both need serious counciling. Either from the church or form a therapist. She will learn to trust you again, as I have my husband, but it will take time. She needs to know that you love her and want her and HER alone. Once you are able to prove that (by your actions, by attending a continuous addiction program and by therapy) she will see it and start forgiving you. Keep strong -- don't let this get you guys. Pamela
Author eskimojoe Posted September 16, 2008 Author Posted September 16, 2008 Hi Pam, Wow, reading your post was like you were in our house... My husband also has an addiction with p*rn, I believe stemming from his childhood... Yeah...similar situation Looking at porn can cause a wonderful feeling at first, but it's not healthy if I'm using it to mask pain. It also never really works. It's also leaking sexual energy that could be directed into the marriage. I heard the "leaking sexual energy" phrase recently and I really like it. It's no nonsense and covers a vast range of "unfaithful behaviours". Have you ever considered contacting a man from church - either a decon or a person older than you, to be your accountability partner? Yeah...I've got two. And I call him if I breach, not the other way around. When she is ready, you both need serious counciling. She's Irish. I don't think she'll ever forgive me. Honestly...she's got a few close people she's cut out of her life because they've pissed her off. Her mother and her best friend from high school is one of them. There's a pattern here. I'm not particularly hopeful. Anyway, I've called the DivorceBusting.com folks and I'm trying to stop pushing her and figuring out what I need to do for me. We'll see what happens.
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