the lesser of 2 evils

[jj33]

Am having a difficult time with the balancing of work and getting past my negative feelings about having to deal with xMM.

 

Over the summer I arranged a work drinks with some clients and someone else invited him - and I left within minutes. We rearranged for next week and the cohost just called to say he was inviting xMM. I dont want to have to bail again and cant bear the thought of having him there.

 

I considered emailing him and asking him not to come but couldnt count on that. Theres an even chance he would say I was invited thats your problem. Were not seeing each other anymore get over it. And I am not missing this twice.

 

So I told the other person that while we have a great working relationship, we have an uneven social relationship and while I nkow he has my best interests at heart, he sometimes says things that make me self conscious (last time he commented on what I ate and drank) and I would prefer if we dont include him this time.

 

I couldnt think of a good way out of it. So in the end I came off as totally neurotic about my weight. Or worse this guy knows and is too polite to say anything. I think its fair to assume he suspects, at a minimum and most likely he knows. Hes seen the tension between us on more than one occasion.

 

I guess the best I can hope for is that he doesnt gossip about us. I hate this I wish I could just not care if he was across the table doing whatever he chooses and just let it roll off my back.

 

I dont know what I expect anyone to say. I made my bed now I have to lie in it... Youd think he would have the courtesy to stay away from things that are arranged by me with people who are basically my friends. But he doesnt and knowing how much it upsets me and that I would leave its very possible he would just go and get the benefits of the evening himself -- on my credit card!

[whichwayisup]

He obviously doesn't care that it's made you feel uncomfortable. Don't leave! Do your absolute best to suck it up and show him that you couldn't care less if he is there. Don't speak to him at all. Here's an idea - Go to the waitress and ask her to put a separate tab aside for only him. Nasty yes, but by doing that it'll show him that he can't take advantage of you, even this way. Plus, he'll have a nice surprise at the end when HE gets his own bill!

[Agent_99]

jj~

 

I don't really have much in the way of advice for you. Well sort of. I think it was you who talked about visualization. So picture yourself at this dinner, and think about how YOU want to react to however MM will act.

 

It is hard when you have such little control over situations like this, but you do have control over yourself and your outward reactions.

 

It sounds like you end up feeling very self consious around MM. I can understand that very well. So take it up a notch. Show him what he missed out on. From everything I have seen here you are an amazing woman, you have a career that you seem to enjoy, you are supportive, caring, understanding, non-judgemental, and willing to do some soul-searching to be a happier person. If you were a lesbian, I'd be asking for your email

 

Being overweight does NOT mean that you aren't attractive, it isn't something to feel embarrased about. I think it's okay for your co-host to know that MM makes you uncomfortable. Don't worry about what he thinks. It's okay to stand up for yourself. So stand up for yourself. I would email MM, asking him not to come, if he does anyway, dont' let him get to you. If he makes comments about what you eat or drink, turn it around on him. Let him look like the indecent one, the one being a fool. Your letting him have too much power. I say take that power back. He's not trying to be your friend in this. From what I've seen he likes to play these little games with you. Don't play.

 

I hope that any of this helps!

 

~99

[wildsoul]

I'm hoping that he doesn't join that evening and it turns into a non-issue!

 

Agent_99's advice about picturing it going well is excellent too. Wall of politeness! Detached, yet friendly. Focus on the people you do like.

[Ronni_W]

Hugs, JJ.

Or you could go the old fave, of picturing him sitting there naked with horns growing out his ears and cacti growing out his...whatever orifice(s) you wish .

 

When he makes ungracious comments (man, he's such a jerk and also very unprofessional, IMO ), perhaps you could come back with, "thanks for sharing" or "your opinion means so much to me...really!" Or, my current favourite: "Are you MENTAL?" And then just shoot him a look that makes it clear you consider him a total nutjob.

(If he's acting out in front of others, I'd respond similarly, too -- don't let him get away with trying to humiliate you in front of others, without appropriately defending yourself.)

 

Actually, I wouldn't expect him to not show up as a 'courtesy' to me. At the end of the day, it's a work-related function. Professionally, I would not feel as if I'm owed any special courtesies or favoured treatment.

From that perspective, it may just be about you really growing and developing your own arsenal of coping tools and tactics. The only other realistic option is to quit your current job...and, if it were me, I'd freakin' NEVER give him that satisfaction.

 

More hugs,

Ronni

[jj33]

Hi thank you all. When I posted I had already asked my cohost not to invite MM. I just wondered if anyone could have thought of a better strategy. I was so upset by the idea of MM being there that I paniced. I feel a little bit differently now (i should have sucked it up or asked MM discreetly not to come since its MY function and I have the right to veto the guest list ) but whats done is done. I know MM would have said we always said we wouldnt let this impact business but guess what, it does. Im not going to feel uncomfortable at small networking gatherings if I arrange them.

 

But that ship is sailed. MM wont be attending because he wont be invited but its at the cost of my cohost knowing. I dont know for sure the cohost knows but the cohost is not an idiot so I have to assume he does saw through my excuse. I mean I am on the larger side but ... it was a bit of a lame excuse.

 

Am torn between thinking that for now, its better we are not invited to the same small functions than to suffer in silence. The cohost was in an A for a long time and is now in the process of leaving his W independent of the A (for himself). When people have engaged in idle gossip about him I have always said of course theres no A and hope he will return the favor by not gossiping about me and whatever he "figured out" today.

 

Part of what made it worse was a very gorgeous young woman was going to be invited and the thought of a table for 6 including MM potentially talking to her was more than I could handle. But I have to learn to put it aside. We were never found out but we were by one person today because of my anxiety over being around him.

 

Am going to start meditating more. This should not be having such an impact on me after all this time.

[Ronni_W]

we always said we wouldnt let this impact business but guess what, it does.

JJ, isn't that a step forward from where you were last week -- when you didn't seem too ready to allow yourself (give yourself permission?) to acknowledge that it DOES change things? And that it's okay if it does?

And, in my books, steps forward do deserve to be celebrated, yes? My guess is that you'll continue to be taking such steps...maybe even without noticing it right away, but you WILL be moving forward!

[jj33]

Thanks Ronni. You are right I am moving forward. Our businesses are intertwined but I have decided I dont need to be involved in the in person marketing side with him. Its not useful to me now because I am too selfconscious around him. When I am more detached I will not care but for the next few months, I need to do what I need to do. And hope that my cohost is discreet. I am banking on his respect for me and the fact that he has been in the same situation and knows how harmful it is to be gossiped about.

 

At this point the only sticking point to feeling good about being around him in person is the feeling that I never got an explanation for certain things he did. And they are things I cant just sweep under the rug.

 

The excuses I made for him at the time are not enough in the cold light of day and though a part of me will care for him I dont want to be around him. If he were ever to explain those things that would be one thing. But in the meantime he has to earn my friendship. Its not just a given. And I am not asking for an explanation at this point. I am not going to flatter his ego like that.

 

Maybe in time the reasons etc wont matter anymore and the natural rapport we have will be sufficient to allow me to happily be in small groups with him because I simply wont care anymore. That day cant come soon enough.

 

But I know myself. When someone really really hurts me I wont talk badly about them but I never give them a chance to do it again. I cut them off and close the door. Its taken me a very long time to close the door to him but now I have. And now I just need to let go of the ugly memories.

 

The hardest part of closing the door was my inability to believe that someone who has clung to me so long after the A ended could really have treated me so carelessly. I kept waiting for him to say the reason xyz happened is blah blah blah (even tho we cant go back to the A). Something to make sense of it all. But its been months and that is clearly not going to happen. He is so detached from his own emotions he wont even process them himself.

 

That being said, its not reasonable for me to expect that he is going to dig deep and become introspective just to give me peace of mind. I think one day he will not just come around but he will leave the M. By that time it is likely to be too late. I will have moved on and all of this pain will have been for nothing. But I cant hang onto the hope. I have to beleive there is something better waiting for me in the future. Even if he did leave the M our relatoinship has been so tainted I cant imagine he would want to then go into a situation where things needed to be fixed. He would need a lot of therapy to deal with his patterns etc etc before he would be the partner I would need him to be. And I am not sure I would ever fully trust him with my heart again. Its been very hard to accept that this was a mistake. I dont like being wrong. But there you have it. It was a mistake. Not because it was an A (I know others will disagree but thats their option) I went into it with my eyes open. It was a mistake because he was so detached from his feelings all along that the whole thing became a total mess. And I made a mistake by not getting out as soon as I knew that. I should never have hung around and made excuses for him.

[Ronni_W]

I have decided I dont need to be involved in the in person marketing side with him. Its not useful to me ... I need to do what I need to do.

JJ, isn't that a step forward from where you were when you started this thread???

I wouldn't worry about your co-host. In business there are many people with whom I just don't "click". It happens...others don't necessarily suspect that affairs are the underlying reason. Auras don't match up, or whatever.

At that moment, you just needed the support of your co-host. No need to feel "bad" or guilty, or to get all anxious over it. It's done, don't dwell on it cos it's putting you in a negative thought/feeling cycle.

 

he has to earn my friendship.

 

What is your motivation to want to have a "friendship" instead of just keeping it to a cordial, well-functioning BUSINESS relationship? Cos I don't think it'll validate your personal relationship, really, will it? It happened and that is certainly all the validation that it really needs.

 

Not to mention that, subsequent to the relationship, I haven't seen where he would know where to even START to develop a friendship with you. That is, are you sure he has the intellect and emotional capacity to do that?

 

I just need to let go of the ugly memories.

 

Ugly and painful consequences of times that were happy when you were experiencing them? (For myself, trying to turn happy memories into crappy ones is a highly ineffective strategy. My brain doesn't listen cos it knows better than what I'm trying to feed it.)

 

my inability to believe that someone who has clung to me so long ... could really have treated me so carelessly. I kept waiting for ... Something to make sense of it all.

 

Is it possible that there is STILL a piece of you that is unable (or maybe unwilling?) to see his actions for what they really were? He could have been in addiction-mode. And addicts think, say and do whatever they feel is necessary to get that next "fix"...even if it is a weaker form of the "substance" of choice. And they genuinely believe what they tell themselves -- it wouldn't even be that he was consciously trying to deceive or mislead you.

 

I think one day he will not just come around but he will leave the M. By that time it is likely to be too late. I will have moved on and all of this pain will have been for nothing.

 

I'm going to disagree with that...your pain has been about your self-learning and growth. You have already benefited from your pain, as I am seeing it.

But. Are you saying that it is NOT ALREADY too late? I mean, is that what your subconscious is saying? If so, did you want to have a good chat with it, and set it straight?

 

At this point the only sticking point to feeling good about being around him in person is the feeling that I never got an explanation for certain things he did.

 

Would like to suggest something different for this...post in the 'coping' forum. Not that I view "other" people in a negative way. (Though I intensely dislike that term.) But coping with the aftermath of a relationship breakdown is coping with it. That doesn't change just because there are some aspects of the former relationship that are "different".

And it also gets you out of the headspace of labeling yourself as "other". You are NOT an "other"...you are just like the rest of us. Well, maybe we are all "others" in one or another way, but you are the same as us. (If that makes sense?)

 

Hugs,

Ronni

[jj33]

I have decided I dont need to be involved in the in person marketing side with him. Its not useful to me ... I need to do what I need to do.

 

JJ, isn't that a step forward from where you were when you started this thread???

I wouldn't worry about your co-host. In business there are many people with whom I just don't "click". It happens...others don't necessarily suspect that affairs are the underlying reason. Auras don't match up, or whatever.

At that moment, you just needed the support of your co-host. No need to feel "bad" or guilty, or to get all anxious over it. It's done, don't dwell on it cos it's putting you in a negative thought/feeling cycle.

 

he has to earn my friendship.

 

What is your motivation to want to have a "friendship" instead of just keeping it to a cordial, well-functioning BUSINESS relationship? Cos I don't think it'll validate your personal relationship, really, will it? It happened and that is certainly all the validation that it really needs.

 

Not to mention that, subsequent to the relationship, I haven't seen where he would know where to even START to develop a friendship with you. That is, are you sure he has the intellect and emotional capacity to do that?

 

I just need to let go of the ugly memories.

 

Ugly and painful consequences of times that were happy when you were experiencing them? (For myself, trying to turn happy memories into crappy ones is a highly ineffective strategy. My brain doesn't listen cos it knows better than what I'm trying to feed it.)

 

my inability to believe that someone who has clung to me so long ... could really have treated me so carelessly. I kept waiting for ... Something to make sense of it all.

 

Is it possible that there is STILL a piece of you that is unable (or maybe unwilling?) to see his actions for what they really were? He could have been in addiction-mode. And addicts think, say and do whatever they feel is necessary to get that next "fix"...even if it is a weaker form of the "substance" of choice. And they genuinely believe what they tell themselves -- it wouldn't even be that he was consciously trying to deceive or mislead you.

 

I think one day he will not just come around but he will leave the M. By that time it is likely to be too late. I will have moved on and all of this pain will have been for nothing.

 

I'm going to disagree with that...your pain has been about your self-learning and growth. You have already benefited from your pain, as I am seeing it.

But. Are you saying that it is NOT ALREADY too late? I mean, is that what your subconscious is saying? If so, did you want to have a good chat with it, and set it straight?

 

At this point the only sticking point to feeling good about being around him in person is the feeling that I never got an explanation for certain things he did.

 

Would like to suggest something different for this...post in the 'coping' forum. Not that I view "other" people in a negative way. (Though I intensely dislike that term.) But coping with the aftermath of a relationship breakdown is coping with it. That doesn't change just because there are some aspects of the former relationship that are "different".

And it also gets you out of the headspace of labeling yourself as "other". You are NOT an "other"...you are just like the rest of us. Well, maybe we are all "others" in one or another way, but you are the same as us. (If that makes sense?)

 

Hugs,

Ronni

 

Thanks Ronni. As always you are spot on. Yes it is a huge step forward. I am looking after myself finally. And the cohost is likely to be OK. If I get excluded from certain things in the future oh well. If I get to a point where I am ok with being around xMM will just signal it to cohost somehow. The short version is that a lot of marketing in my industry goes on in informal settings and the cohost is the center of a lot of all that.

 

As for being friends we had a really good friendship before and if in time we find a way back that would be good but Im not sure it will ever be possible. There is too much to get past on my part.

 

What you are saying about the fix and addiction mode makes sense. Maybe that is why there are no answers. He just couldnt go without the fix and as the months wore on he would say and do anything to get some time with me. Then he would freak out and say we could only be friends. But that is not how friends treat one another.

[jj33]

Well I looped back. I thought about it alot and decided I shouldnt have excluded him. So I contacted my co host told him I was being silly and invited MM. I think it was the right thing to do. I have to get past this. I shouldnt care if he is sitting across from me kissing someone else. What he does or says is none of my business. I have to be tougher. And it was not smart of me to alert others to a problem between us.

 

it would be nice if MM decided not to attend but really it doesnt matter. He is great company and beyond that I just cant let it get to me. Otherwise I risk excluding myself from various marketing things and that is not smart. He is not worth it.

 

Something about this - maybe just the act of starting to exclude him, seemed to make it all click into place. Maybe because for the first time I felt I had a choice to exclude him if I wanted to. But I dont want to. Its not the road I want to go down or who I want to be. I want to be gracious and over it. We have a really good business relationship and I dont want it messed up because I am too angry to be around him. Time to drop the anger and resentment.

 

For the first time ever, I dont care what he says or who he flirts with. Or who is flirting with him. Hes married its not my problem. Its between him and his wife and whoever he gets involved with next.... (and there will be a next at some point).

 

Its very freeing. I am even noticing other men. Its a great feeling.

[Agent_99]

>Its very freeing. I am even noticing other men. Its a great feeling.<

 

It IS a great feeling when you notice other's! It has been a great releif for me to realize that there are other women out there AND that i'm still attracted to them on more than a cursery level.

 

I'm glad that your working through this, to the point where you feel okay now about him being there.

 

~99

[jj33]

Thanks I dont know what finally clicked but it suddenly occured to me that I was hanging onto this Romeo and Juliet thing for no reason. Its ok for him if he wants to because he needs something to distract him from his M. But that doesnt mean I have to.

 

And it for it to ever work out his leaving would no longer be enough. The distance has opened my eyes to the many internal changes that would be needed. And the liklihood of both ever happening is so remote that at this point that pigs are likely to fly sooner. Hes a good man and we shared something special but its just silly for me to hang onto the past at this point. I think he is starting to let go too. The daily phone calls have ceased so that is a step in the right direction.

[whichwayisup]

So, when is this event taking place??

 

You might want to keep an eye on what he ingests and how much he drinks. He MAY take advantage of the fact you're paying ...

 

Anyway, you certainly are taking the high road on this one and I'm sure you'll be fine. What he does or says doesn't matter - So just focus on other people and don't even glance his way..Coz you know he MIGHT purposely try to get your goat, get a reaction out of you.

[jj33]

WWIU thanks. I dont think he would take advantage but he does like to have my attention for whatever reason jeez he must be bored... But the good news is he cant come (or doesnt want to). In any event he declined.

 

I would say I wasted energy on nothing he wasnt coming anyway but something about taking action helped me over the hump. I cant let it haunt me forever.

 

And thank you all for your support. I will see him at other marketing functions in the coming weeks but there will be lots and lots of people there. We may or may not bump into each other. Last year i used to avoid him at all costs, but it was so much energy. Now it doesnt matter as much. If we do bump into each other, a little small talk will be all that is required.

[jj33]

OK so if its not one thing its another. But I think I am handling this better.

 

MM has some input into a project I am working on. I tried getting needed info from his colleagues they passed it to him. His first question was why was I doing it this way (because it works for me). He initiated the contact and then when someone emailed me asking something that didnt concern him at all, I didnt include him in the response.

 

So my helpful friend emailed the other person and said jj must not have seen your query I think she needs x. In fact I had already responded.... So I emailed him and said I know you are quite busy so I didnt include you on responses but am happy to do so.

 

My secretary saw the email and freaked out - what the.... who is he to respond for you even if you didnt respond within 12 hours.... (which I had).

 

he then queried me about when I was going to do certain other things that dont impact him at all. Why not today why tomorrow...

 

I spoke to him later and let him know how much I appreciated his input but that I am really busy and am comfortable with my time table.

 

I am trying to be compassionate. To understand that he is having trouble not knowing what I am doing who I am doing it with, not being my sounding board for every little thing. But this is getting ridiculous.

 

He was never so controlling when we were together. I can only think that this is his only way to maintain contact. its great to have his support but it really feels like he is breaking boundaries.

 

Just venting.

[Ronni_W]

its great to have his support but it really feels like he is breaking boundaries.

Hugs, JJ...and congrats on your strength!

 

Could just be from my vantage point, but I'm not seeing his interference as "supportive". He's pissed that you're finally showing signs of moving on, is what I'd interpret. Pissed and trying to get back to HIM being in control. That is, he wants to be the 'thing' that constantly runs through your head and controls you thoughts, anxieties and actions. He wants you to be always worrying about running into him, or avoiding him, or seeing him flirt with someone else, or acting gracious, or ignoring him, etc., etc.

 

He wants 'you' to be about HIM. So now he's doing everything he can think to "remind" you that he's out there, somewhere...and hoping that he'll get back to being that 'thing' in your head that he was, last week. The thing that kept you constantly anxious, on edge, unsure, confused, etc.

 

But he isn't that anymore, is he? (YEAH!!!)

[jj33]

Thanks Ronni - you do make me laugh. You make him sound like the CIA or a stalker... and no I dont care anymore.

 

I like to think he means well and is just confused. His little puppy isnt wagging her tail trailing behind him anymore and hes at a loss as to what to do... after all everyone likes to know there is an adoring puppy in the wings... even if you dont want to take the puppy home. (not sure why I am on dog analogies tonite)

 

Oh well. Those are the breaks eh?

 

And isnt it silly that he wants to be such a force but doesnt want to be with me. Alll ego. But hes a handsome charming guy surely he can find some sweet young thing to really flatter his ego as that seems to be all he wants...

 

Its that old saying if you arent sure what you want, you dont want what you have... so he doesnt have me anymore.

 

Thanks again Ronni.

[jj33]

He is really testing me. He cant seem to have a conversation without mentioning his sexual preferences. Project in Italy? Oh how he loves Italian women. etc etc.

 

I have been rising above it but its really annoying. I dont know why he feels the need.

 

He must think its funny or flirtatious I think its just inconsiderate. But I dont say anything I just change the subject. I am dying to say something because it is really bothering me. But I dont want to give him the satisfaction.

[wildsoul]

He is really testing me. He cant seem to have a conversation without mentioning his sexual preferences. Project in Italy? Oh how he loves Italian women. etc etc.

 

I have been rising above it but its really annoying. I dont know why he feels the need.

Ugh!

Who knows what reaction he is trying to get, but it's definitely intended to provoke you. This book I read calls it "bombing." Most common are anger bombs (trying to get you to either fight or feel bad) and seduction bombs (trying to make you feel love or protected.) This seems like he is trying to get you mad, so he can then accuse you of being jealous...some kind of verbal/emotional interaction.

 

The strategy for bombing is what you're doing: don't react. Wall of politeness. He might continue to test in different ways. Be strong. Don't let him see that it's getting to you. Venting here is smart!

[jj33]

Thanks WS - really appreciate that. What is the name of the book. He manages to drop various bombs in the same conversation. You hit it. He is looking for some response other than I am totally consumed by my work and thank you so much for your assistance. He doesnt realize he is eroding whatever bond was left between us.

 

I have been reading a book on bhuddism and healing relationships and am trying to practice compassion. If the monks in Tibet could practice compassion towards the Chinese while they were being tortured, then I should not be bothered by this!

[wildsoul]

Thanks WS - really appreciate that. What is the name of the book. He manages to drop various bombs in the same conversation. You hit it. He is looking for some response other than I am totally consumed by my work and thank you so much for your assistance. He doesnt realize he is eroding whatever bond was left between us.

 

I have been reading a book on bhuddism and healing relationships and am trying to practice compassion. If the monks in Tibet could practice compassion towards the Chinese while they were being tortured, then I should not be bothered by this!

 

The book is Facing Love Addiction. She's a master at pointing out the patterns that people fall into in an addictive relationship. It's the book that most hits home with me.

 

Keep in mind that the Dalai Lama has taken great strides in "fighting" for Tibetan rights and calling out against the wrong-doing of the Chinese government. Compassion--yes, but also common sense. The Dalai Lama has a good sense of humor, too!

[jj33]

Thanks WS. I will get the book. Good point on the Dalai Lama its not productive to fight against a colleague!

 

Btw just read something that also hit home its about chasers and runaways in relationships. Also very close to the mark for me at least.

[jj33]

Ive come to a new place on this. I cant have my cake and eat it too. I dont want to sacrifice the business relationship (would be insanity to do so). So I have to accept that he is who he is. He is going to do what he is going to do and that is that.

 

This is apparently his coping strategy. To be super helpful and then make his snappy little comments. We are all entitled to one. I dont have to love his, but thats what works for him. And I cant control that, tell him what words he can and cant use, what thoughts he can and cant express. I need to let him do his thing and get on with my life. And I need to appreciate the good in him and the good will between us. Reading some of the threads it could be a lot worse.

 

I am reminded of that scene in Bridget Jones Beyond the Edge of Reason where she is in the Thai jail complaining about how awfully Marc Darcy treated her and the girls say oh Bridget did your bad boyfriend beat you and make you take drugs... and she starts to say no he folded his underwear....

 

I should be happy that things didnt deteriorate to the extent that they could have. I will still vent because his behavior can be intrusive sometimes, but I suppose in time that wont bother me either.

[jj33]

And now for a new twist on an old game - for those of you who wonder does he think about me does he miss me yes I think they do - they just sometimes have odd ways of showing it and the bottom line is it doesnt matter. They are married.

 

Its hard to describe the recent events without putting it all on show over the internet, but after performing a herculean feat on my behalf xMM started lacing bus emails with all sorts of flirtation and very romantic reminiscing. And voicing his disappointment when I did not respond in kind.

 

When I asked why it mattered as we are no longer together, he said he was only kidding... (the ultimate cop out for someone caught red handed).

 

It really upset me. Yes he still loves me. And that is nice but there have to be boundaries. He is seeking reassurance that I still love him. Do I? Sure I do. But the romance is behind us. He isnt acting like this because he is planning to make a life with me. He isnt even looking for a PA with me. He is seeking affection to fill the emotional gaps in his marriage.

 

He says he wants me to move on and intellectually I believe he means that. But his emotions arent there yet. We are having a tug of war for my heart. He wants it to be stuck in the past never getting over him. But the fact that he has decided to outsource his feelings doesnt mean I have to oblige. Its very very draining. I feel badly slapping him back when he is so kind to me but its not fair to me. I need to be open to meeting someone new. And that wont happen if I am focusing all my emotions on a married man. I pray we find a balance. I guess it will take him time. In the meantime I need to keep reminding him when he crosses the line.

 

Thanks for listening.