I think we really broke up this time...can't stop crying!!

[verve]

has anyone ever kept NC but called the ex's best friend just to see how they were doing so that they didn't actually have to talk with them and break NC?

 

Sort of, I snooped on my ex's friends' myspace and facebooks, it just made me feel crap and I wish I hadn't of.

 

If you contact his friend it will no doubt get back to him so although you're not contacting him, you're still breaking the no contact.

[chacha7]

Thank you verve. I don't think I will be contacting his best friend. It's been a week and a few days and still NC. I am starting student teaching tommorow and feel like that is such a good outlet, but every day is still tough, being around certain other people or situations mainly. I have to learn to stick to people who don't make me upset, even if they aren't trying to.

 

Luckily, I've learned that a lot of the people I though like my ex didn't at all! It's made me feel better actually. Many were just annoyed by him and thought that he didn't know how to be a good boyfriend at all. Some had said things to me when we were together, but so many other people who i've told, told me things they didn't like about him and I didn't even know. Like how he was stuffy and was a know it all who always thought he knew what he was talking about, but didn't and they couldn't stand to hear him talk lol. Believe me, he did ALWAYS think he was right and it was annoying! lol. Many also said that they were suprised I didn't break up with him over many other past situations that we found ourselves in and said they would have broken up with their spouses upon experiencing those same situations/fights/etc. I guess hearing other people say they could never be with him and that they were glad I'm not is good to hear. Does anyone else ever experience that?

 

People have said to me that it is totally fair that I asked to use a different therapist than his own for couples counseling because his therapist would in fact have some sort of bias towards him since he has been going there for months. Also, the fact that he has never told me his diagnosis either means he is lying to me or his therapist isn't doing his job, because a few had said nobody is told they have to go to so much therapy for just minor problems. Someone on this site actually suggested ADHD which I never thought about before, but it is somewhat fitting. Who knows though, it could be anything. It's just funny though because he would always tell me I needed therapy or had some psychological issue (which I thought was very rude btw), and meanwhile he doesn't even realize it is him who is negatively affecting our relationship. Of course I knew, and I encouraged therapy to help him, but unfortunately it has yet to do that. The only think it has helped him with is spending money on trips and extravagances, and withdrawing from me. It is ironic, he was a psychology major, who got into it bc he had issues, yet he thinks this gives him the authority on everything and then he needs psychological help.

 

Honestly, I distrust his therapist and hope, hope, hope that he finds someone else. This is the therapist that feels its okay to tell someone to break up with their fiance because he can't help them. This is the therapist who tells his sister she should leave her life to move 1000 miles away to live with her bf of 4 months. This is the therapist who has his parents thinking his teenage brother needs therapy. This is the therapist who tells my ex that he needs 5 years of therapy, when he only has 12 sessions on his insurance per year, without a diagnosis (but who knows, i could have just been lied to when I asked how therapy was going). No wonder I was so critical when week after week my ex would say the therapist told him nothing and just made him keep a log of the amount of times he picked his lips or hair to find a pattern. I could figure that out!

 

BTW, my ex had another "therapist" in the form of a 65 year old gay man (Nothing against gay people, my brother is gay). But I don't see how this man has any authority or credentials or similarities with my bf to tell him how to live his life. My ex bf works for this man, but essentially gets paid to sit around, talk, make poems, get massages and eat. This man thinks it is his given right to analyze everyone, find their flaws and correct them. he especially loves to take in young male whores with drug problems and treat them so they can live a better life. So far, few have really been helped, but he thinks this guy has some sort of effect over him and would listen to his advice no matter what. Meanwhile this guy was like an english professor and lives off the money of a man that he had a relationship with years ago, that got married to a woman and is now seperated. This guy is so distraught bc he can't control the man who pays for every little thing for him and surrounds himself with strange people with what he describes as deep psychological issues and feels that he has them himself as well. Why my ex bf feels like he is someone to listen to and follow his every word, I don't know. He has said many things about me, analyzing me even though he has never even met me and I'm sure my ex bf would tell him changed versions of stories (ie. I'm really afraid that I can't control myself around other men, so I get jealous...not true!). Plus what also annoys me is that he is my ex bf's moral compass on everything, especially issues on gay rights. He doesn't believe in gay marriage so that means its bad? Please...

 

I just think it's funny how he said if we ever broke up he would still love me and always be there for me, yet NC! whatever. I, and many others, still feel that since he broke up with me, it is his job to initiate the first contact. However, I think by the end of this week if there is still NC, I will probably email him questioning him as to why he couldn't at least ask me how my student teaching was going. And then I will ask him to read all of my LS posts to realize what I have been feeling all of this time. Good or bad idea? anyone with suggestions?

[chacha7]

I just remembered something upon reading Babes' post (and if you haven't you should, very good and helpful!). My ex bf would always say directly and indirectly that things that were wrong between us were my fault. Not that I'm saying everything was always his fault, but I would say more that half the time it was and it would be blamed on me for one reason or another. Anyway what i really remembered is how one time I told him how I thought I was a good person (for whatever reason that came up, I forget), and he said he didn't think I was a good person really. who F'in says that to their gf. Of course I was mad and he didn't see how that was a bad thing to say to me or how it could be hurtful. He would say everything I would do nice for other people wasn't really nice for one reason or another. It was so hurtful and I said Well why be with someeone you don't think is a nice person? He said it didn't mean he was a good person, but whatever.. just another debate in which he thought he was right and he really didn't care how it made me feel. I remember thinking wow maybe I am a bad person or a mean person. I realize now that I am a good person and a very nice person to so many people. I go out of my way to be nice to so many people, and do things that most people wouldn't to help others and he couldn't even see that about me.

[chacha7]

thanks ryan. I am using this time to think things through thoroughly...wow that is some alliteration, isn't it? Anyway, he a very confused person, and that was a big part of him that made me unhappy. He was always confused about his life and my part in it and it just wore on me. It's weird because he thought I was complicated, but I think I am actually very simple and he is sooo complicated! It's just hard, I guess.

[verve]

You're a good girl, I cna tell that from your posts.

 

I think NC is doing you a lot of good, you're coming to a lot of realisations, noticing some of the imperfections and the problems that were there which you were blinded to whilst in the relationship. Keep going, stay strong, your doing well

[wayfaerer1]

Hang in there.

 

My girlfriend and I just split up a few days ago - we've been dating for over 3 years.

 

It's tough, but you have to stay strong. The best thing to do I've found is to find some music that really motivates you, the type of music that gives you that urge to move and do something. Take that music and go exercise, join the gym, do jump rope (helps me a lot), or go for walks, run, until you sweat.

 

It gives your body a boost of energy and slowly but surely the pain starts to subside a little.

 

Plus, you're only making yourself look more attractive - which is a HUGE ego boost, and an ego boost is exactly what you need when you feel heartbroken.

 

Just remember, don't blame yourself - it's easy to do that, but the sooner you realize you're a good person, the sooner you'll start healing.

[chacha7]

Thanks verve and wayfaerer! Your post really mean so much to me and they are a huge help in keeping me strong, especially with NC. Working out has been a really good outlet for me distract myself, and luckily I started student teaching today which really forces me to get my mind off of things. I'm sorry to hear about your breakup wayfaerer, I hope you are doing well! That long weekend sucked, didn't it? lol. I'm glad it's over. Actually I had a dream about my ex right before I woke up, it was weird...just us doing normal things. Now I'm slightly afraid of falling asleep, that was another good distraction until now!

[chacha7]

It's so annoying... I had another dream last night, or should I call it a nightmare. It was weird and I don't really remember all of it, but at one point my ex bf was there and being really mean to me and really nice to someone like one of my friends or something, but in the dream I thought he was just doing it on purpose to piss me off or something.

 

then I remember some guy was like trying to kill me or something and I remember I was really scared and I thought, even if he goes to jail he'll just get out one day and then kill me then.

 

Then I remember I had to climb something really scary in order to get to my hotel room or something and I coudn't believe that the building was built that way and that other people actually had to climb this to get to their rooms. I was thinking, I have experience with rock climbing but there is no harnass here and I could easily fall and pieces of the thing were like falling off and hurting people and I was like, I really don't think I can do this! I don't remember the exact events just those three things. Anyway, now I'm not even able to get a good night of sleep, this is terrible.

 

Luckily, my days are filled with student teaching and work, but NC is still hard!

[chacha7]

I was okay today and then all of a sudden some song comes on and i start crying. So then I try to things about things I hated in our relationship and here it is. The fact that he always thought how wonderful his family was and his relationship to his parents and how he thought mine was bad. Not like mine is perfect, but his was just plain weird. First of all, there were naked pics of his mom on his computer, and I don't care that his dad put them there...wtf?! Then his parents were really bad with money and would take money from him. His dad couldn't even retire. Then his mom was basically a full time gambler, and would make money by having poker games, and he thought that it was so great that she was traditional and stayed at home because he felt the mother was more important than the father for children. Then I would say that I think they are equally important and say that my dad worked at home when I was little and my mom worked part time and he would be like thats why you hate your mom, and I'm like no that is definently not the reason, its because she is a b*tch to me sometimes. Anyway, he would say I was just obsessed with equality because I thought women should work if they wanted to after having a kid.

 

His mom was especially crazy. She was like extremely ADD, nuerotic, and he admitted she had an addictive personality. One day I took a shower and their drain has been broken forever, so when I rinsed off the conditioner would take a while to go down. So I'm out of the shower in his room and I hear her yelling about me to him, telling him I should clean the shower and how could I do this. It was so rude...like if you have a problem, just come up to me nicely and tell me what to do. It wasn't even that bad, I didn't even notice that's why I didn't do anything to begin with. My bf had told me that she complained about that before, but I really didn't even notice what the problem was so I didn't do anything. Anyway, I would've just liked if she talked to me like a normal person, but no, I have to feel awkward about it. And then to make things worse, my boyfriend gets mad at me, saying how could I do that. I mean I can't even imagine telling a guest to clean the shower, but if I had a problem, I would talk to them like a normal person. And if my mom ever actually yelled at my bf or he heard, I would feel so bad. So then I was mad at him so I said whatever I won't take showers at your house anymore, and he got more mad at me. Of course I still did take showers there when necessary, but I still heard it from him. He would use it against me, like "You said you would never take showers at my house anymore". I was like yea because I get yelled at when there is like barely a problem. She also said once that I should clean all of the dishes instead of him at his house (bc I am the woman!). Meanwhile, she ordered a woman to clean her house when she barely made any money and hid it from her husband.

He wanted some woman just like his mother and sister. Marrying into money so they can just sit home and do nothing all day.

 

Also his parents thought that he was the smartest, most successful person ever and would let his younger brother know how he was not like his brother in that regard. They would constantly tell the little brother how he had all of these problems and would make him go to doctors and psychiatrists...umm no wonder he might have been depressed, besides I thought it might have just been teenage angst bc he seemed pretty normal to me.

 

Also their kitchen was sooo nasty! And his parents would never renovate things that didnt work like the shower drain, and every single thing in the kitchen including the dishwasher and fridge, and their would be cockroaches coming out of his wall and his parents did nothing about it!! He got some traps, but still, it was a problem in two rooms and they nothing for the other room. It was so scary and gross.

 

And his relationship with them was pretty much his parents agreeing with everything that he said because they thought he was the genius of the family. No wonder his ego is so inflated. They never liked me even though I did everything for them.. went to funerals, holidays, birthdays, etc. Meanwhile they would rave about the sisters bf they met like once or twice, bc they just wanted to get his 33 year old sister married, but since I was his first gf, I could do no good. i went there nearly every weekend, was friendly, took his little brother under my wing, and was disliked. His sister would usually ignore me after I said hello and would occasionally say like a sentence to me. wow big deal.

 

I'm over his family definently.

[chacha7]

Why does it seem that since I am broken up, everyone else in the world is falling in love or in the best relationship I have ever heard of? Really it's weird. Like my best friend moving in with her bf of 8 months, or this girl where I am student teaching getting engaged to her bf who's going to war, or this girl at work who's "head over heels" for some guy she's in love with. I have never heard anyone ever use the expression head over heels before, except maybe in movies. It's so annoying lol. Probably just bc I am depressed though. Really I know these are good things and I am trying to be happy for them all, but its hard. I feel like I am never going to fall in love again, or no one will ever fall in love with me again. I am not a very flirtacious person and I never know what I am doing with the opposite sex. It sucks.

 

Anyway I was just thinking of other things that used to piss me off about my ex in order to stop feeling sad...It's been one of those days, I guess. I've been unusually depressed for no apparent reason, maybe the heat.

 

Anyway, I used to hate how he had all of these saved conversations with girls on his computer, and pics, especially this one of his old friend that gave him a h-job once, of her blowing a kiss in the bathtub, which I didn't find out about until way after we were already dating, and by the way, he hung out with her once at a party and she began coming onto him again after the party and I got mad that she was texting him before I even knew about the H-job thing and he got mad at me for even getting mad at that!

 

Also another pic was on his facebook when he had one, him and some girl whispering into eachother's ears at a party, sitting like on top of eachother practically.

 

He said he didn't tell me these things because I said once when we started going out that I didn't want to know things like that. I said I didn't want to know the details of times like that, but in general I wanted to know that they at least happened. Like yes, I want to know you had a bj or hj from some ho in amsterdam and some girl you knew and almost introduced me to, no I don't want to know what it was like or what you were wearing. Another time I got mad at him bc he went to a bachelor party and didn't tell me there were strippers there, and I wouldn't have even cared bc its obvious there would be strippers, but the fact that he told me every single other detail about the night and happened to leave that out, is what I was mad about. Withholding the truth is a lie. And honestly it makes whatever happened seem much worse. like why would you withhold it if nothing happened? One time when we were first going out i said "I dont' mind if you go to strip clubs once in awhile like on vacation but I wouldn't like it all the time, but I would at least want to know", but instead he doesn't tell me. Again I wanted to know the general, not the details. Like I went to a strip club, but I don't need to know the color of ho's hair. Of course it is somehow my fault in his head, that he didn't tell me.

 

Another time, I was mad bc we were in a waiting room and there were about 40 seats and only one other girl in the waiting room and he sits right next to her. So I sat on the other side and was mad bc I felt like if there's a million open seats, it looks like you're hitting on that girl if you sit right next to her. It's like when i'm on the train and there are a million empty seats and a guy sits right next to me. Of course his excuse was I always sit in that seat and was mad at me for getting jealous, but when asking a lot of other friends, both male and female, they think that is weird and would also think that would mean someone was hitting on them. They would feel awkward if someone sat next to them with other empty seat around and no one else there. whatever.

 

Also the fact that I liked like everyone of his friends and would invite them to parties at my house, and he would say "you don't like any of my friends", bc I would get annoyed when he would want to see them on the only two days I saw him each week. I had two birthday parties for him at my house and one was a surprise party and I had to call all of his friends behind his back to tell them to come over. I went on vacations with his friends and their gfs, hung out with him and his friends on many occasions, and even told him times to specifically call one of his close female friends so that he did not lose touch with her. However, because of two times I supposedly never liked his friends. These two times were both with two different girls that he used to be friends with, and they were both extremely rude to me and my friends on many occasions. Of course he "didn't see it", even though my friends on both of those occasions came up to me and were pissed, surprised, mad, etc. They were both b*tchs and everyone knew it. Of course I find out months later that one even came onto him at a party. I would not talk about them, but would only fight about it when he would bring it up that I made him lose friends. I said if they were friends they wouldve been nice to your gf, or at least nice enough to say hello and not give dirty looks or make rude comments to me and my friends. But he thought I just detected something on a girl level that he couldn't understand. Not true, I know many guys who can detect things like that.

 

I seriously am not that jealous of a person though. These were probably most of the times I had been jealous in 2.5 years of dating. Also I would never call him incessantly when he was somewhere I felt uncomfortable with, I would never show up to spy on him, or other stuff like that. Mind you I was never mad about the porn on his comp, I never said a thing. One time I took naked pics and vids with him, and he got a new mp3 player and the first thing he puts on is porn, and I was annoyed that he didn't put the naked pics and vids I had made for him the day before and chose porn over me, but that was like the ONLY time I was ever mad about porn.

[chacha7]

This NC thing is so annoying, but not surprising I guess. My ex never really seemed to care about things that were going on in my life. I would talk about something big that was going to happen for like weeks, and that day I would talk to him and he wouldn't even ask about it. Or I would be telling him a story and he would just interrupt me and tell me something completely unrelated midstory, or would just look like he wasn't paying attention. Or I would tell him a whole story, and then say something like two seconds later about what I just said and he had no idea what I was talking about, so I would be like "I just told you the whole story!, you weren't listening!". Maybe he never really cared about what was going on with me.

 

Meanwhile I would listen to him having the same complaints about work, life, whatever, nearly every night and would try to think of a hundred different ways that he could change things for the better in every area, and he not only would do none of it and complain about it again the next night, but he would get mad at me when I got annoyed from constantly hearing about his issues and tell him something like in an annoyed voice or tell him he was stressing me out.

[chacha7]

and you know what, I could probably tell you almost every detail of every story he's ever told me. He can't even email me to say how is student teaching which I've been talking about since starting my degree when I started dating him.

[verve]

I read all of that god help me. Well I'm sure getting it all made you feel better.

 

You know he's not right for you and that you deserve better. Its tough and it hurts but you know you are better off without him and that there is somebody else out there who will treat you better.

 

You've just got to ride out the storm and let all them emotions flush from your body, think about things (don't think about every little detail in the relationship) but not in too much detail and come to your conclusions (you've done a lot of this already), that will help you get closure and press forward in moving on. Thats really helped me, the NC helped me see things in different perspectives, I now get why my friends would say things like 'why did you put up with that', 'you could do better'. I think love blinds us, genetically, we're programmed to be overtaken long enough to reproduce and knowning that is helping I think as it sorta gives you a logic to these seemingly illogical emotions and feelings.

 

Stay strong and keep up the good work.

[chacha7]

Thanks verve! Poor you for reading all of that! lol. Those were true rants, I know. I think it is helping a lot to write everything out though like you said. Like all of these things just need to get out and then they are easier not to think about all of the time. I am so grateful for LS and everyone on here. It's like the journal I never had, that other people read lol.

[verve]

It definatley helps to write things out. After I broke up with my ex, I wrote some things on a scrap of paper, some of her negative traits, why I did the right thing. Anyway I soon filled that up and kept writing stuff. Now I've got an envelope worth of scraps of paper, sort of like an unorganized journal haha.

 

Thats really helped me, if I'm feeling weak I can look at that to remind myself I did the right thing or I can add more to it if something comes to my head. As its all down as well it sort of feels like its out of me, like I don't have to remind myself of things over and over, its on paper if I want to look, if not I can leave it.

 

Stay strong, your doing well.

[chacha7]

Okay I broke my two week NC this morning and I know everyone says you shouldn't, but I had some things I had to get off my chest, you know. I have been very strong through NC, and don't plan on making any more contact, but I just needed to say a few things in an email so that I could let them go and that I really felt he needed to know. I really don't expect anything from this and that's why I think it was okay to break NC, for my own closure. Since some people on LS have been helping me along I am going to post my email. Don't worry, I am still strong and doing well! If you have any comments on my letter, please tell me... your advice helps me to stay strong through all of this. Here is the email, with names of people we know and places shortened to their initials. Sorry I always write so much, I am so stream of conciousness!! lol.

 

Hi M,

 

How is it going? How is work and New M? Well I suppose that I would be the bigger person and write to you, basically to tell you a few things that I need to say.

 

It's been two weeks today that you walked out on our 2.5 year relationship because I would not fulfill some ultimatum that you had for me. We have not talked and I feel that since you walked out on me, you should have been the first to make contact, but obviously I had to be the strong one. It is fine if you want space, but what really hurts me is the fact that you couldn't even put your feelings aside for one email or phone call to ask me how my student teaching is going. You knew I had orientations last week and I started classes all of this week and since I've been talking about this basically since we have been together, I thought maybe you would at least have to courtesy to see how I was doing with it, at least as a friend. Even if just as an aquaintance. You know it's a very big deal for me and for everything I have supported and helped you with, all of your work and personal things, I at least thought you would give me a "How is that going?". It seems like random people I barely even talk to give more of a **** that you, by bf for over 2 years.

 

You were the one who said you would always be there for me as a friend and love me no matter what. Was that a lie? When I told you everyone would be leaving me (btw A left for DC today and b is moving next week), because I knew all summer since you started therapy that you were going to break up with me, you said that you would never leave me as a friend, among other times in the past that you have said this. But I guess now that has changed. Maybe your therapist told you not to be friends with me or told you not to ask about student teaching, I don't know.

 

Now honestly, I don't think the fact that I wouldn't go to your therapist, when I agreed to go to another couples counselor is enough of a reason to break up what we had. You cannot say that I didn't try everything I could. I knew you were going to break up with me, and I said I would go, I didn't want to go to therapy, and I said I would go, I wanted to give up too, but I said I would go. Just not to your therapist because I do not trust him, and because I think a couples therapist should get to know us together at the same time, and that was a fair compromise. So what was the real reason that you broke up with me?

 

Was it the never having another gf thing? Or did you really just hate me all along? Or has your therapist diagnosed you as having a psychological condition that you felt like you would be burdening me with? I am honestly a little bit worried for you because I have been talking to people and telling them about your therapy, and everyone I have talked to said that you wouldn't be told that you need so much therapy if there wasn't something really psychologically wrong. They also said that you have probably been diagnosed and you don't want to tell me. Please tell me if that is the case.

 

I have been posting a lot on www.loveshack.org under breakups. My name is chacha7. I want you to read all of my posts and all of the replies from other people. That is the least you can do for me now. It will show you how I have been feeling over the last two weeks and will also give you a different perspective on things I hope. I will probably still be posting in the next few weeks also.

 

I feel that I tried so hard to be a good girlfriend to you and I was, so I don't deserve being treated like this. I am not asking for much, just a "hey hows student teaching going" or "hey are you coming to d and c's wedding that you are invited to", which I can still go to bc my name is on the invitation and they are my friends too. You never even said goodbye to me.

 

That's all I had to say I guess. Please read my posts on LS. Hope you are doing well!!!

[chacha7]

Yes verve, I did that too! Awhile ago before we broke up, he had done something to me that made me really sad so I wrote a pros and cons list. My pros side had like 3 things under it and my cons side took up the whole page. I thought why do I stay with him then. Because I was in love, because I felt like there was no one really obvious reason to break up, like cheating or drugs, so I said we can work on these things. Deep down I knew, but I wasn't ready to accept yet. I don't have that paper anymore, I wish I did. I threw it out because I felt like since we were still together I shouldn't harp on the negative and try to stay positive. Ironically, now when I harp on the negative about him and helps me to stay positive in every other area of my life lol. Now LS is like and extended version of that page lol. Hope you are doing well. Thank you so much for your support!

[chacha7]

I was just thinking about how I used to want to be with my ex bf forever. I really wanted to marry him and have his and our own little house in the suburbs and everything. I don't think he is that type of person though. He would say things to me like "all men are creatively stifled when they get married" or "people with kids look like they are slaves" or "women look like they age ten years when they have a kid"! I would always so "no that is not true", but he really believed these things. It was depressing. I wanted to be with him, but I definently don't want someone who thinks that. All men don't think that, right? I hope...

 

It's not like I ever even pressured him into anything, I'm not ready myself because I haven't finished school yet, and I don't want to be one of those woman who forces a guy to marry her. Ideally I would want the guy to really want to marry me and make the move. But it's like we NEVER talked about it, maybe once or twice we said we wanted to be together forever over the 2.5 years, but then he would say something about myself I would need to change in order for it to work.

 

And then of course, like a week before we broke up, he says he wants to marry someone jewish so he could raise jewish kids. I don't know where that came from, but a lot of people are saying it is just another excuse to break up with me. I don't know what to think.

[verve]

When I did my pro con list there was also 3 good points and a lot of bad ones and like you I initially tried to look past that.

 

I personally think you shouldn't have contacted him. What do you want next? Did you just want to get all of that out and let him know how you feel, from your previous posts I'm guessing you don't want to get back together with him? And my personal experience is that having ex's as friends is never a good idea.

 

I was just thinking about how I used to want to be with my ex bf forever. I really wanted to marry him and have his and our own little house in the suburbs and everything.

 

There's nothing wrong with that, I want that too someday when I meet the right person.

 

 

I don't think he is that type of person though. He would say things to me like "all men are creatively stifled when they get married" or "people with kids look like they are slaves" or "women look like they age ten years when they have a kid"!

 

It sounds like his has commitment issues. These are excuses to try and not tie yourself down. I also think neither are true.

 

It was depressing. I wanted to be with him, but I definently don't want someone who thinks that. All men don't think that, right? I hope...

 

 

Of course all men don't think like that. From my life experience, I know a lot of other men who are a lot more cautious with making commitment and getting too close to somebody due to the fact they've been hurt in an early relationship/relationships. I think a lot of the time thats why people have these commitment issues. Either that or they stem from childhood or its a mixture of both.

 

I know I will be a lot more cautious and careful in my next relationship after being hurt so badly in my last relationship.

 

Ideally I would want the guy to really want to marry me and make the move. But it's like we NEVER talked about it, maybe once or twice we said we wanted to be together forever over the 2.5 years, but then he would say something about myself I would need to change in order for it to work.

 

He was making excuses! He was putting objections and barriers there, for the most part they sound weak excuses and they were quite harshly putting the blame on you 'you're not good enough because you're not jewish etc'.

[chacha7]

I know that it's probably not the easiest course of action to email him that letter, and I know that we do not belong together, but I guess I feel like throughout our whole relationship, he never actually listened to me and would twist things so much to the point where he would think things that were totally not the case. He wouldn't see how his actions affected me, and would affect many people, and I guess I just wanted him to see that.

 

Anyway in an effort to show both sides to the story, although I always try to be as objective as possible, I have encouraged him to post on here as well. Also I will be posting our email exchanges, changing and names and places, so that I can truly heal.

 

This was his reply to my letter...

 

 

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]It is good to hear from you. I read every one of your posts on love shack. Without trying to rekindle old negativity and tit-for-tat, I want to point out to you that my therapist never told me I need 5 years of therapy, and I believe posting that greatly skewed some of your responses. He has not diagnosed me with any condition as of yet, but said early on (after maybe the first or second session) that I may be suffering from an ongoing “mild depression” that has caused me to be unhappy at varying times in my life. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]Secondly, one of the people very helpful to you (and whom you respected most) in the forum, verve, did say that you had nothing to lose from going with me to my therapist. However, in spite of that, you have still chosen to participate in a forum where I have no chance to answer for myself or tell my side of the story. Finally, there was no mention of the fact that our final argument stemmed from my wanting to join a gym and your fear that I would meet people there. Had you posted that, I believe you would have seen some other insights into your own feelings. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]Now, to my feelings. The honest truth is that I saw no future for us the way things were progressing. I have incredibly strong feelings for you, so strong that I believe they have led me to change in ways that I did not plan or anticipate. It is not that I have recently changed as a result of going to therapy; instead, it is that therapy has made me realize that I went too far in sacrificing the elements I need for my own happiness to continue our relationship. Walking out on you that day was without question the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. And the grief I have been experiencing so far has tested me in ways I’ve never been tested. But I think once I started to see you as a potential marital partner, a person to spend the rest of my life with, I realized that there are many issues we would need to work out. It is important for me to know that the person who I will spend the rest of my life with will be ready to do whatever it takes to make the relationship work. I very strongly felt that you not agreeing to go with me to one session with Dr. Levenson is a strong indicator that in the future I cannot not rely on you to give yourself fully to this relationship. I really believe that it is an indicator that your principles and values and pride will, in the future, also stand in the way of us working through life’s obstacles together. Yes, I know we were up against a lot. But I really believed our love was miraculous and that it could guide us through just about anything, and that the few things it could not guide us through we had to keep our minds open to being judged in an unbiased forum. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]Everything I said before still holds true. I will always be there for you as a friend and I will always love you. But there is a specific reason I didn’t contact you all this time. The reason is that my feelings for you were just too strong, and I really didn’t trust myself to be able to reach out to you in any way without accepting another compromise which I believe would lead us nowhere. You said yourself you wouldn’t be able to keep from crying if we spoke, and I felt exactly the same way. Call me weak, but I just love you too much to be able to cope with that. And I felt I would never be able to move on or begin the process of healing if we continue that cycle of back and forth emotional intensity, and that I would not be able to mask it just by sending you a casual message. There is never a “good time” to break up, so I had to put all my thoughts and worries aside or we would never be able to move on. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]Like you, I’ve been checking my phone and checking my e-mail repeatedly hoping to see or hear the words “Matt, I will do whatever it takes.” But at this point I didn’t see us moving forward if that did not happen. It seems that it was just not meant to be. I believe that it is possible for two people to love each other more than anything, and not be able to be together for whatever reason, and perhaps that is what we are up against. Everywhere I go and everything I do still reminds me of you. I cherish and have no regrets about our 2.5 years. Your love was the most incredible gift to me, and will be forever. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]Now, sappy stuff aside, please tell me how student teaching has been going. I have total faith in you that you rose to the challenge and are making the most of it already, even through this difficult time, and I want to hear all about it![/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[chacha7]

Sorry I didn't know about all of those fonts, color, size things! I hope it doesn't make it hard to read. Anyway, here is my letter in response to his email...

 

 

I don't think posting what you directly said to me about how long you would have to go to therapy greatly skewed my results in any way. I was very objective in all of my writing on that site and you had told me that. The fight beforehand is regardless, because it like many other fights we have had and btw, I had no problem with you joining a pool, or now you're saying gym, except that the prices you were saying were ridiculous so I told you so, and I also had a problem with the fact that your real reason to join was to meet people, not to work out. Why don't you, instead of trying to blame me for wondering why you feel the need to meet new people, think honestly about why you constantly feel the need to meet new people so much and to tell me about it so much. Of course I am going to have a little concern, when all you ever do is talk about how you have to meet new people. I know you seem to be incapable of jealousy, but some people don't like to always be told by their significant others that they need to meet new people, because it feels like they are not good enough, and when someone talks about it as much as you, its hard not to think that way. You are lying to yourself if you don' t think you are trying to rekindle tit-for-tat, because you are still trying to place blame on me for things and not admitting in any sort of way that anything you did was not conducive to being in a relationship, with me or with anyone. You are not being true to yourself and being objective about the situations.

 

It's funny how pretty much every post says you are incapable of being in a relationship in a lot of ways, and yet you choose to pick the one little tiny thing that went in your favor. lol. Yes, verve did say that it couldn't hurt to go, but it also couldn't hurt for you to go to a different therapist with me. I am willing to compromise on the topic, it is you who is not. That is the true test of someone willing to do whatever it takes, because whatever it takes in marriage or a long term partnership is to compromise: think about the feelings of others and come to the BEST compromise. No it does not mean only think about your own feelings and No, it does not mean you will always get your way 100%. It also does not mean you give someone and ultimatum and they must do it. Compromise means you both have to give something up for the greater good. You did not care about my feelings towards your therapist. I did not want to go to therapy, but because I knew you wanted me to, I did by myself once and then agreed to go with you. I am the one agreeing to work on our issues, by working with you, not just for myself...for us, but you seem to be incapable of doing that for me. This is not an indicator of what I am willing to do for you, it's an indicator of how you are not willing to do whatever it takes for me. And that's fine, but why don't you just admit it, instead of saying that is what I am doing? Is it because it would crush your ego too much to admit you are wrong and I am right in any sort of way, about any topic whatsoever. Anyway, not going to your therapist, while agreeing to do therapy with you, is not enough of a reason to break up if you really wanted to stay together or really thought our love was miraculous. Why don't you just admit that to yourself and realize I was willing to do whatever it took.

 

I kept my mind open to being judged in an unbiased forum. Loveshack is unbiased, and I made my writing as objective as possible, writing only about facts and including your feelings and direct quotes you have said to me. I do not want to portray you as something you are not, because I want things that will help me, not answer questions to problems I don't have. You know deep down somewhere that you have said those things to me and treated me in those ways, but maybe conciously you are unable to admit it to yourself or to me because you have too much pride. I did not skew things for effect and I did not portray myself as the perfect person either. The results I got were honest and exactly what I have been hearing from everyone outside of LS also, people who have known you as well. You said that I decided instead to post things online where you have no chance to answer for yourself or tell your side of the story, but that is not true, and you know it. You can and I think that would be fine.

 

Of course strong feelings for eachother will cause you to change in ways that you cannot anticipate. That is the point, isn't it. However, when you are in a relationship, it is not always about you and not all of the changes are going to be perfect. I have never tried to change you though. I always have tried to do everything to make you happy, even if I didn't think it would necessarily make me happy. I have told you to have dinner with F, I have invited your friends to my house or went on vacations with them when I didn't want to, I always said have fun when you were going out, I have went in to debt trying to make you happy doing different things every weekend. I have even based my happiness on whether or not we were happy. What I don't think you are capable of is thinking about anyone's happiness but your own. And that is fine, but that is a big part of being in a long term relationship.

 

Now I am sure that there is some tit-for-tat in there and I am not going to lie and say there isn't. However it is my goal to stay objective and tell things how they are. All I ask of you is to think openly and honestly about things you have said to me and how you have treated me. I know you don't have any experience being in a relationship before me, and I would not consider myself an expert being in only one relationship before you, but I do think that I understand more of what it takes.

 

Student teaching is going well. There is so much going on but I don't want to write out everything here because I plan on posting this on LS, because that is truly what is helping me heal. Also you didn't mention the wedding coming up, any reason?

 

Thank you for your reply. I need to tell you these things for closure and I think they can help you to think honestly about yourself and how the ways you act affect others, which can only help you in the future. You should bring these letters and my posts to therapy, so your therapist can get my perspective as well. It can only help, right?

[chacha7]

I don't think that by writing to him and him replying is making me want to get back together with him and I did not do it in order for that to happen. I think hearing his replies just shows me that he doesn't hear what I say and by him confirming that it helps me to move on.

 

You will see from his letter, he is not a mean person and does care about me in some way. My main incompatability issue with him is not that, but the fact that he can't admit that twists things so that he can always make me sound like I am wrong in some way, and the fact that I know that he will feel stifled in any kind of relationship and can't deal with it honestly without placing that blame. I think defining it helps.

[chacha7]

Thanks verve... I am so happy to hear that not every guy thinks like that! He would have me believe that that was just how men thought, but deep down I knew that some men really do fall in love and want to get married and start families and "live happily ever after" in the traditional way (without that meaning that the woman has to be the house wife).

 

I don't really have any experience doing the whole friends after breaking up thing. With my first bf, who was very mean and basically a druggie when I finally broke up with him, I refused to take his calls because I knew how bad he had been treating me. Obviously I still had a hard time with the breakup, especially since it was my first bf, but it was more clear cut and I was more ready and didn't really ever think of marriage or anything back then. I just cut him off one day and never looked back.

 

I don't know if I want that with my current and second ex bf. It's ironic actually because I was always the one who said if we ever broke up, I could never be friends (thinking back to my ex), and he always promised he would be my friend, and now I'm am the one reaching out I guess. I think right now I just need him to see how he has made me feel so that I move on. It's like posting on here...I post it and it's out of me, I tell him, and although I don't think he'll ever really understand me or us, it's out of me. I do think I will limit contact and eventually do NC when everything that has been said and I have some sort of closure. Not the traditional NC I guess.

 

Also we were both invited to a wedding that is in a few weekends. I still want to go because I really like the couple, and he has to go bc he is a groomsman, but I don't know what to do. I think it would be too hard to see him. Also he didn't say anything about it after I asked in his email, but I want to go for them. I have not decided yet. I probably won't go though.

[chacha7]

In another effort to be as objective as possible and tell both sides of the story even more, I am going to write everything that he can use against me or has complained about in the past. I never said I was the perfect gf, and I know I contributed to our breakup as well, but I feel like many of these things happened on such few occasions and I would work on things he would ask me to, so they shouldn't have always been brought up.

 

 

He would constantly tell me that all of our problems were due to my relationship with my first boyfriend. He would say that my "jealousy" stemmed from the fact that my first ex was always jealous of me, although he was jealous of me for very stupid reasons that I would never get jealous of my ex bf for, like what I wore. One time I asked my ex bf why he was wearing cologne when he went out without me since he never really ever wore it with me. He felt that was me acting like my ex bf, and I can see that. I felt was doing it only when he went out without me so he could smell good around other girls, bc he also would never wear it when just going out for a guys night. However, I only asked him about it ONCE, and he'll constantly bring it up to remind me.

 

Early on in our relationship I was really mad at him because I asked him not to sleep over this house with had a bunch of girls, one of which had really treated me and my friend badly. I never said "don't go to parties there", but I wanted to know that he wouldn't sleep there, especially since my house is 5 mins away. He broke that promise and blamed it on me for making him make it in the first place and I really contemplated breaking up with him then bc we were only 6 months into our relationship. Instead he decided to try to break up with me for getting so mad about it. In the heat of the fight I said "I just want to jump off a bridge", more as like an expression of me wanting to get away from him because he would not listen to my point of view. It was in no way a cry for help and I was in no way suicidal. If anything it had a sarcastic tone, but my ex doesn't understand sarcasm (and unfortunately I can be very sarcastic sometimes, not in a mean way though). He would always get mad about me saying that, which I understand, but it was obvious I wasn't like actually going to do that in anyway and I had apologized many times for saying it.

 

Also ONE time when I first went on the pill when we were first dating, I was having mood swings, and since I can be a little bit of a hypochondriac, I told him I thought I was bipolar because I had been reading about it in a class. That gave him the right apparently to tell me all the time what psychological disorder I had and how I needed therapy.

 

Also when we were first going out, sometimes when talking about things in the distant future, I would say "if we're still together by then" with a joking tone, not really for any real reason, just because I was cautious. I stopped that though, bc I knew after a while that we would be together for good.

 

Something we both did was say "I don't know if I could be with someone who...". He told me not to say that and I stopped, but he would still do it to me.

 

One thing I said that for was Facebook/Myspace. I really hate those sites because they cause drama in like everyone's life I know. I don't have it, and became especially senstive on the issue when it caused drama for us. He had posts and pictures that I thought were innappropriate, especially one time when someone flagged a pic of him that I didn't like). He NEVER used it anyway and I really hated it (for everyone, not just him), so I said I would love it if he would give me the gift of getting rid of it. For our 1.5 year anniversary, he deleted his account. It was the greatest gift he ever gave me (I actually cried when he handed me the page that said it), except for the fact that he has to constantly remind me that he did it everytime a fight comes up or otherwise. I understand the sacrifice he made for me and I felt like it was big and important and meant something and I know everyone says facebook is so great, but I encourage him and them to actually interact with their friends and stop stalking people. He has also retained all of his friends, which all of his friends can't say of eachother, and has said that he never used it anyway and it didn't really change his life when he got rid of it.

 

I would question how he always wanted to meet new people, because he would talk about it soooo often. One time he wanted to join a tennis league with friend, but it turned out that it was coed and he would need a female partner (knowing I couldn't afford it and it was too far for me bc we live far from eachother). I said I didn't want him to do it so he got mad. I suggested joining a mens league or a coed softball team with me either where he or I lived, but no. No sort of compromise.

 

We had a fight right before breaking up because he wanted to join a pool/gym to meet people, not to really work out and it was a crazy expensive price for the membership, so I said he shouldn't do it. Honestly, I wouldn't mind him joining a gym if working out was the reason for it. One of the places he was looking at which also had a really expensive membership fee was a Jewish center, so I encouraged him to go to their seminars and meetings bc he was always talking about getting closer to religion. He said no.

 

I got mad at him for deciding to go on a cruise the day after we got back from a vacation with his friends. I felt like he knew I wouldn't be able to afford two trips, so basically decided for me by not telling me about the cruise option. The day we get back, he's like I'm going on a cruise (with only his single male friends). I was mad he didn't invite me, felt the need already to go on another vacation, and I felt like he might have been doing it to meet other girls since only his single male friends were going and since I went on a cruise twice and I would always see stories of people cheating on their bf/gfs (it happened with my friend who I was on a cruise with once so I saw how easy it was). So yes I understand I was especially sensitive, but after our first fight about it, I didn't bring it up. Then I told him to have fun, I made some sexy pics and vids for him to have with him there, and gave him happiness magazines that I put funny little notes in and told him I would miss him and to eat a lot!

 

I've also told him I don't want him to move to certain areas because it was too far for me to drive. He also wanted to go back to college in another state to pursue a degree in the psychology of happiness and was mad at me because I said we probably wouldn't last then, bc we are already and hour or two away depending on traffic (I'm in the suburbs, he's in the city). I encouraged him to explore that topic on his own and even gave him magazines and sent him articles on the topic.

 

Also I said once that I would break up with someone if they were constantly checking out people in front of me because I thought it was disrespectful. I said I know people do it, but they should not do it in front of their bf/gf. He got mad at that. He would say whenever someone walked by that he checked out I wouldn't say anything, but give him a dirty look. I did this maybe 4 or 5 times, in our whole relationship. I wouldn't say a thing though, like send a look and then get over it. One time he said some waitress was pretty, so I did get actually get mad, but didn't say anything and just kind of acted mad and said something like "ohh who cares if she's terrible, at least she's pretty" sarcastically (bc she sucked! lol.) and he ignored me the rest of the night, at a dinner with his parents for his brother's birthday. I hung out with his brother who was also being ignored bc instead of celebrating his birthday his family was too busy meeting his sisters new bf. I was mad at him for ignoring me that night and his younger brother.

 

 

 

 

Those were his main complaints about me...a lot of that stuff happened early on in our relationship and wasn't repeated, yet he still complained about it years later, bringing it up in fights that had nothing to do with these things. I know some things I did were wrong, but I feel like you need to get over stuff or try to understand the other person to see what they mean. I always worked on something when he said he didn't like it, and that's all I can do. He thought I should just be able to shut off my emotions for the rest of his life and he can just act however he pleases. That is not how it works in a relationship to me. Maybe if I wanted to die inside and become unemotional as I got older.

[chacha7]

I hate a lot of time on my hand bc of the storm today, stuck inside...

 

His response to me...

 

[COLOR=#000080]Once again, what you posted is not what I said. And it does matter, because to say that my therapist told me I need 5 years is a total lie. He never made any time estimates, and any timeframe I threw out there was my own conjecture because I didn’t know how long it might take. Self-understanding can be a lifelong journey, but it is rarely an overnight one. It would be extraordinarily unusual for a therapist to tell his patient how many years he needs to heal, and anyone who reads that in a forum would think nothing other than that you are dealing with someone who is extraordinarily crazy. [/COLOR]

 

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]In any case, that is all irrelevant now. I have no hard feelings towards you, but going back and forth again with you will only create them. It’s done. You are not a bad person, nor do you deserve blame, you are just not right for me. I made it very clear what I need in a relationship and it doesn’t add up in our case. And the “ultimatum” was not the problem but just the symptom of the problem. We had to work through things if we were going to be together, and it just did not happen. We could have gone back and forth just like this forever, and had wild ups and downs and an unhappy marriage. Many people do. But in the long-run, they would have been better off if they came to the realizations we have. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]I am being quite true to myself and to you when I say that continuing a relationship where we both seem to have “cons” that far outweigh “pros” is to do a disservice to both of us. I certainly have grown and learned much as a person from this experience, but it would be best for both of us to put that all aside and not discuss that with each other while we are still healing. We can’t be broken up and together at the same time, so if we are going to move on we will need to get past relying on each other or promising each other any form of emotional support for our own break up. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]As for the wedding, all I can say is you were invited and you have every right to attend.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]My response to him...[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy][FONT=Arial]I am in no way trying to rely on you for emotional support and am certainly not looking in any way to get back together with you. I have come to these realizations a long time ago as well and am happy that we are apart and I am getting over you. I have learned a great deal about myself while with you and because of this breakup and feel grateful to you for that. I am even stronger than ever! The purpose of me asking you to read my posts is so that you can understand me and where I was coming from, because I feel that when we were together, you didn't. Yes, we are done, but now come the time to examine how to do better next time. It can help you immensely on your journey of self-understanding, which by the way is ALWAYS a lifelong journey. That is what I want you to realize. You always felt like therapy would have all of the answers and there would be some end point to all of your problems or emotions, and what I always told you was that things will always change and you will always have one problem or another, but you just have to adapt.

 

I still don't think I portrayed you as someone who is crazy and have even posted just about everything you thought was crazy/annoying about me to show the many ways I was not perfect. I am being as honest as humanly possible about both of us. I don't want to create hard feelings, but I want you to please keep reading my posts. We don't have to email anymore because I have nothing more to say. I invite you to write about your side of the story so that everyone on LS can have both sides to view, you won't feel like I am portraying you in the wrong light and maybe I will understand more about you as well!

 

As for their wedding, I am not sure yet. As for our friendship, that is up to you. I have extended the hand and made the first move. I know it may not be easy for either of us, but it would be harder to say goodbye forever. We never even got a goodbye as a couple. Plus I still have your bike, which I really can't stand to look at, so please get it in some way, even if you don't want to see me, before I go crazy. lol. Please don't get rid of those scrapbooks I made you, I spent a lot of time and money on those!

 

That's all. I miss you and hope you are doing well, with work and NM!

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