Ok, so here's the story (so far)

[dphoenix1701]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]So, for those who’ve been witness to this newly unfolding saga, here we are to the crux of my problem.[/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]My tale begins like so many others here: I have a girlfriend whom I love, she has been all that I could hope for and things were going relatively well. She is attentive, caring and so forth. We are both 30, separated – and I been through this too many times, trust me that the circumstances of our separations are not involved – and naturally bring a great deal of learned expectations to this new relationship.[/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Early in our relationship she would joke with me that she knew I was proud to have a ‘hot’ girlfriend. It was but a little more than three years ago she was overweight, and I knew that since she’d lost weight she regained some of her childhood confidence. She wasn’t necessarily flirty, and didn’t dress slutty. However, her attire did make a big deal of how she looked – shirts that enhanced her boobs, and pants that rode low. This calmed down when I expressed to her one day that I took no pride in having other guys ‘jealous at what I had’ as her soon-to-be ex-husband did. Neither was I stupid enough to believe any man who looked at her placed me in whatever thoughts they conjured.[/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Anyway, we’ve been together about 10 months, and spent a good amount of time otherwise trying to truly get to know each. This was a huge issue for me coming out of a marriage to someone that I thought I had, but learned I didn’t really know at all; she constantly hid or misrepresented things to me from a criminal history (which became moot) to being diabetic (for reason I have no idea, she just didn’t want to tell me in the beginning). I have no concern that these things were baggage, just an experience to try to expect upfront honesty.[/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]We didn’t so much as have Q and A sessions as relate our pasts to each other over time. Over the course of our relationship, though, there were stories I felt she shouldn’t have shared – again, no one asked anything, we just shared things with each other. As compartmentalized anecdotes they were discomforting, but bearable. The MFF ménage her STB-ex talked her into with her childhood friend made my stomach twinge, but I was, at the time, able to file it away under the “in the past”, “before my time” list of deeds and do-dats. Then ever more frequently she began to share her new tidbits of stomach-twisting events. There was the doggy-style dry humping stripper-fest at her bachelorette party (the lovely photo of which is burned into my memory). I recall the tale of her narrow escape from a drunken gang rape by her supposed school buddies, that was only averted by a well-timed vomit – friends whom she not too long ago still knew and exchanged “how’s your mom”s, and whom her brother still goes out for drinks with when he comes to town. I was regaled with the various high school hotel parties, “how I learned to swallow” escapades and who wanted me so badly details. What helped digest this all was that it came slowly, out of context, and most importantly undated. In my mind, I could see these things as being from her teens or isolated incidents of indiscretion throughout her twenties.[/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Somewhere along the way she told me about a friend of her STB-ex, his bestfriend in fact, that used to flirt and make improper innuendo. She related the story to me in a way I felt implied she was the unwillingly recipient of his advances. It was a story I paid little attention to at the time, and compared with others I’d heard registered nowhere on my scale of uncomfortable past events.[/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Then…[/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]However it came about she IM’d the friend’s wife to see how she’d been. They hadn’t spoken since her separation, but had been friends during the marriage. She allowed me to read the friends response, and a new light was shed on an old story. The friend’s wife essentially read her the riot act, which raised a whole series of questions for me. Skipping ahead a moment, it was a few days later that I told her the incident had been bothering me, but I didn’t quite know why. I felt that if she told me the story again I could pinpoint what was niggling at me. Initially, she gave me the short answer, “He came on to me, something almost happened but I didn’t let it.” And that answer bothered me more than if she’d said they screwed. It was a non-answer, but more than that it was a deflecting answer. Friday, August 15, I refused to answer her calls from work the entire day. When she got off, I told her why I didn’t want to talk to her, and only then did she come clean.[/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]The friend had indeed been hitting on her for years, despite her eight-year old marriage to his bestfriend. Even after his marriage just a few years ago – in which she was the maid-of-honor – this continued. During a rough patch in her marriage, he apparently came to the house while her husband was out of town on one of his oblivious fishing trips. In her words, “he started flirting again, one thing lead to another, and we almost did something. But, I realized what I was doing and stopped it.” Pressing her further, she confirmed that about the only thing that didn’t occur was penetration. I’m running out of time, about to get of work. But, I plan to finish this in about 1 hour and twenty minutes for those who can bear with me. In the meantime, for those who choose to post, please feel free to comment, but I ask that advice be reserved until I finish. Writing this is as much cathartic as it is a search for an answer. Thanks, see you soon…[/sIZE][/FONT]

[Walk]

Keep posting! But in the second post, can you edit the "[FONT=" stuff out (if its there after posting). It's making it really hard to read.

[imagine]

Trust is crucial to a marriage. If you don't have it - don't do it.

[dphoenix1701]

Missed my self-imposed deadline, sorry, folks. I got home and things took a turn for the worse-better-worse-worse-and-much-better, in that order. At present, things resolved themselves in a manner that preserved both my relationship and my sanity.

Still, I will conclude what I began, including the story that started my problem. Why? Because you don’t take someone to a cliff if you’re not gonna push ‘em over! Seriously, I considered that someone in a similar situation may find my story (with the resolution) helpful. What began as a cry for help, and turned into a virtual rant, may now be an answer. I can only hope. Oh, and thanks Walk, I thought maybe that was something only I’d see, but I'll try to edit those out.

And so...

The friend naturally kept his distance, but idiotically began sending her emails that contained details of the incident. From what I understand the letters were nervous, not salacious, but contained enough information to apprise her husband when he found them. Meanwhile, the friend in a fit of guilt came clean to his wife (though, he conveniently neglected to mention the prior years of flirting, go figure).

Over the year(s), as I have trouble understanding if it was one or two prior, her marriage fell apart. Do I believe that it wasn’t due to this incident? Well, I think about 80% of it wasn’t, I’ve met the man and don’t quite know why she was with him to begin with – leave it at that. But, I have little sympathy for a man who is willing to open his marital bed to another person to indulge his own fantasy, and then cries foul when it occurs without his consent. I enjoy 3-somes as well as the next guy…in PORN. But, I could never take a relationship seriously with someone who could share themselves or me with another. Personal preference, if you disagree.

Anyway, this revelation tore me a new one. For so many reasons I was angered, confused, hurt and scared by it. Reading that one email raised so many unpleasant questions for me, and at first I tried to swallow them down. But, it was really her response – and a thoughtlessly uttered statement – that set my mind to piecing together things. Her indignation at a former friend’s newly revealed secret hatred for her, and the statement, “Like he didn’t have anything to do with it!” Yes, this could have loosely applied to the facts as I knew them that far, but for two days what ate at me was that the statement seemed odd for someone who was only the innocent recipient of unwanted advances. Do I think too much, frequently I do, but I tried like hell to let it go. By Thursday night I could no longer ignore the sense that something wasn’t right; more accurately, that I was missing something. And as stupid as it may have been, I told her I needed to hear the story again. Maybe if she told me the same thing, no holes or obvious missing elements, it would stop, I reasoned. But, instead I received the clear “non-answer” I mentioned earlier…let the turmoil commence.

You know most of what happened next, and it followed that she wanted to discuss things; I made my knee-jerk feelings known and that brought me here. I will say that even she later agreed that I did not resort to accusations or belittlement. My point was to let her know where I was mentally, and how my view of her had been shattered; but, it was the manner at which I did so that could have been better.

So, I can guess that some of you may get it already, others partly, and others will wonder what the heck is the deal, it’s in the past. Well...

 

I got home and started to finish my epistle, and I was making headway at putting a few things in perspective. Still, the problem was such that I didn’t want to talk to or look at her. I know it was hard on her, but I simply couldn’t. She, however, wanted to talk then and there, and reluctantly I acquiesced. After a few minutes discussion, she decided that she’d taken the heat for her past long enough, and told me to pack my s**t and get the f**k out. If you agree with her at this point I wouldn’t be surprised, but I can say emphatically you’ve jumped to conclusions.

We eventually ‘made up’ a few hours later, and agreed to try to just put it behind us. Though I truly didn’t feel I had to, I made the concession that if we were to move on I would apologize for causing her to feel bad about her past. Then, throughout the day I began to see this snippy attitude from her. When I awoke Sunday morning I noticed a new development, rampant sarcasm. The only thing I could attribute it to was a sense of empowerment; after all, she was able to order me to leave, elicit an apology, avoid acknowledging my feelings or her actions and still maintain the relationship. At that, I realized the ‘let’s just move on approach’ wouldn’t work. You see, she was still able to walk away from the issue feeling that I’d done something to her. I’ll admit, my initial reason for reopening the conversation was because this couldn’t stand, but in the fraction of a second before I opened my mouth I redirected my energy to finding an answer.

I let her talk first, and listened to what was bothering her about it all. If I’d started first she would have never heard a word I said over her own internal anger. So, I listened intently as she expressed how she felt that she was being made to feel bad about her past. She stated that I essentially called her nasty and dirty, and that she felt I was making her pay for something that had nothing to do with us. There was more, but nothing different from the myriad reasons I’d heard and read so far of how past relationship having no bearing on current ones.

But, still I listened, until she no longer could think of anything to say, and sat there glaring at me in umbrage. Only then did I take my turn. I began by first ensuring that she knew I understood her point. I paraphrased, used analogies, and whatever else I knew to convey my understanding until she seemed satisfied. Then I made mine.

My feelings were not about making her pay for her past actions, nor was I choosing to alter the way I saw her based on them. What first hurt me about it all was that I didn’t necessarily get the information from her, not in entirety, and certainly not as it truly occurred. What I got was a tilted version of a story that was intended to elicit outrage at her husband – he (the STB-ex) chose to keep his friend, whom he knew acted inappropriately toward his wife (and in case you’re wondering, he DID keep his friend, who DID attempt to sleep with his wife, go figure). I felt that what she told me was in a way a lie of bias, if such a thing exists. When asked to clarify the situation, in light of my distress, she again chose to give the pre-scripted story.

I was, of course, disturbed by the fact of an act of infidelity on her part. Some may split hairs based on whether intercourse happens or not, I don’t. I explained to her that my overriding problem was the potential to repeat this behavior in ANY relationship. Once a cheater always a cheater wasn’t my thinking; giving in to it because one is unhappy in the marriage/relationship was. My perspective is no relationship can be expected to be highs at all times, and ours may reach a similar low as hers had prior. There was no abuse or neglect, in an extreme sense as she relates it, the marriage had just lost passion, got staid and she was unhappy. How she dealt with that development was what troubled me. No, she may never cheat again, but what we do in times of adversity measures our character. If she and I have trials, there will always be temptations abound, and the fear that she may not have the fortitude to resist is real.

That fear was compounded by the knowledge I had of other actions that alone were questionable, but in union with this presented an image of a woman who did not value her body, her loves or her commitments at least as highly as I. I am by no means a prude, and in my single days I’d have entertained MFF, MFFF, hell, maybe even MFFFF with enough sleep. But, once marriage, children and commitment enter the picture, experimentation should have either been satisfied or ‘so sorry’. So, yes, I did find this repugnant given the circumstances, but more to the point, this reflected even more poorly on her character. And, again, no shrinking violet, but I couldn’t help but picture what once was a faithful, loving, and albeit appropriately freaky GF now as a 'free-lovin’, as long as it’s consensual, let’s invite the neighbors, what friend haven’t I seen naked' wild-thing. Was this an extreme? Yes, but believe me when I say she told me a LOT of s**t and most of it was conveyed in a manner very just-this-side-of-nostalgically.

Another qualm was that in a real sense she never truly had to deal with her actions, and when she felt justified in criticizing the anger of a friend whose husband she ‘almost’ slept with, I was appalled. You see, the wife kept up the friendship out of a desire to not further hurt two families that had known each other for years; that of my GF’s STB-ex and his friend’s. She held onto her anger and pain so well that my GF never knew how she truly felt. In her letter, she was finally able to express the truth, and my girl took offense to her saying she “tolerated you for two years”. As well, she was offended that I pointed this out; she felt that she had already felt bad for her friend and that should have been enough. She clung to her feelings, perhaps unconsciously not wanting face the truth and that led to her demand that I GTFO. What I finally got across to her was a profound realization. She got off Scott-free, they both did. He kept his marriage AND his friendship. She kept her marriage AND her friendship, at least until SHE chose to end them. And through it all no one held either of them to the fire. They hurt people close to them, and she, at least, was able to walk without truly understanding what she had done. And the guilt she experienced was not remorse; it was for getting found out. How can anyone protect against actions they haven’t truly accepted responsibility for, nor have come to appreciate the consequences of? What promises could she make to me, when she has no understanding of what a breach of that promise does?

 

And, you know what, I got through. I had to have; no one has a breakdown that convincing to not be genuine. If she did, give this lady the Oscar, she f**king deserves it. An unintended consequence of this entire experience is that she seems to have begun the process of realizing the damage her actions created, learning to look at who she WAS and who she wants to be, and trying to see more than her view of things. For now, this doesn’t look like it will be an easy process for her and for the moment she will need patience and comfort to come through it, but the fact that she has started the journey means so much to me.

I am not so naïve as to think that the picture I painted of her was at all rosy; some may in fact wonder why I would even bother after all this. Well, first I realize that these things are her past. In the time we have been together, she has been nothing but devoted to me. This is not backpedaling, this is context. I do know that she loves me, and before this I was at most dubious of her past, but encouraged by the present. The feelings I experienced did not raise the specter of a break-up; they presented a shock that dulled the sense of security for our future, and needed to be resolved with it. What I ultimately come away with is that her life before me offered roads that many of us face; that she chose directions that I may not have is human. I don’t judge her for these things, and I will eventually be able to accept them; were the shoe on the other foot, I would hope for no less. No, it hasn’t happened today, but I again see the light and life that I saw in her when we first met.

 

When I joined this forum, my first post questioned why ‘the past is the past’. I understand better now why this is given. It is unfair to expect anyone to forever live under the shadow of past misdeeds. They must deal with to grow as individuals, and it’s not completely unfair to point this out; but care must be given not to destroy the potential for a positive future for fear of a negative one. In relationship, we judge our partners pasts all the time. We use their past to gauge potential before the union, and as a basis for feelings about them after. ‘The past is past’ is well-meaning, but naïve and unrealistic. To learn that your partner had six lovers instead of two doesn’t qualify (at least not for most, sorry to the rest); in real terms this has nothing to do with the character of a person. On the other hand, learning your partner cheated on an ex speaks volumes. Past behavior, to me, is obvious fair game. A far worst-case scenario, but similar in the realm of behavior, would be learning your partner murdered an ex; still past behavior, but something I think most of you would want to know. One shouldn’t jump to conclusions, after all, it would help to know if it was self-defense or homicidal rage; but, either way, information one deserved to know. Given that, I would find a better piece of advice being to keep ‘the past in perspective’. Thanks, and God bless to those who read this far.

[Walk]

Good post dphoenix1701. I hope things continue to improve for the both of you. You have some good insights that hopefully will help others.

 

Good luck, and don't be a stranger on here.

[imagine]

Damn! I feel your insecurity.

[dphoenix1701]

For anyone interested, I came back on this post just recently and reread it. It's weird.

I'm back more than a year later to report that she did it to me, exactly what I was concerned about over a year ago. We've been dealing with the fallout of her affairs for two months now, and I think it's over. Feeling like I should have cut my losses then.

[Untouchable_Fire]

For anyone interested, I came back on this post just recently and reread it. It's weird.

I'm back more than a year later to report that she did it to me, exactly what I was concerned about over a year ago. We've been dealing with the fallout of her affairs for two months now, and I think it's over. Feeling like I should have cut my losses then.

 

It's never too late.