Tree Posted August 9, 2003 Posted August 9, 2003 I am in a quandary. I have been accepted to one of the top law schools in the country. I am a 30 y.o. female and feel ready to devote some serious years of study to develop a profession that I can depend on for the rest of my life. I have been feeling a pull in this direction for some time now and am I ready to jump into it whole-heartedly. I also haev a BF of 5 years. It started out as a long-distance relationship and 4 years ago I left friends, job and family to be with him. We both fell madly in love with each other at first sight, but the stress of me moving in made for a rocky first year. In fact, he stopped being intimate with me on a number of levels (pretty much all of them) even though he continued to be truly committed to having me be a central part of his life. He worked (still does) 80 hours a week and over the past 4 years has had several promotions that have given him even more stress and repsonsibility on the job. He is doing so well at work he is thinking of early retirement in fact. Meanwhile, mostly due to our lackluster relationship, last year I began to make plans to continue with the life I had left years before. I did not make any hasty decision, and I gave myself a year to figure things out - if and how we should continue dating, where I would study, etc. During this period, I brought up the subject every few months reluctantly (it is an uncomfortable topic) and he declined to pursue talking about this with me saying, that, "it was my decision." So, I applied to several schools. Last month, for the first time he was willing to talk about my pending school decision. I explained how much I cared for him and want him to be a part of my life. I also explained that my plans for school were partly motivated by my wanting a change from the way things were between us. Since then, he has given a serious effort to make things right between us. For the first time in years, I feel he is open to love again. Here's the trick: He is not willing to pursue the relationship if I no longer am living with him. THerefore, I either go to law school this fall and break up with him, or I do not go to law school this fall and make our relationship the #1 priority. I am in a quandary. I have high hopes for our relationship, and think we could get married one day. But am I throwing away a serious career opportunity for a pipe dream? I fear being financially dependent upon a person whom has shown lackluster interest in me for years, and now jsut recently is willing to dedicate himself to me. (He is even willing to change jobs in a year to lessen work load even thought it might mean a significant decrease in pay - quite a meaningful suggestion in the finance industry...) Any advice on making the right decision? Tree
moimeme Posted August 9, 2003 Posted August 9, 2003 and now jsut recently is willing to dedicate himself to me. (He is even willing to change jobs in a year to lessen work load even thought it might mean a significant decrease in pay - quite a meaningful suggestion in the finance industry...) Well, if he's willing to do those things, what's the deal about you not living there? Does he not trust you? And if he is willing to change jobs, why doesn't he change jobs to move where you need to live while you're in school? If he doesn't want to sell the house, you can always rent it and move back when your schooling is done.
my_mother's_daughter Posted August 9, 2003 Posted August 9, 2003 So, it would be fair to say you need to make a major decision about your own life and future... Whenever a major decision such as this must be made, I've tended to consider the hardline pros and cons of a situation. I don't advise you make decisions by calculating points per section though(!) just that at the very least a decision can be considered more informed on fact and you can involve your head a little in matters of the heart. Obviously this post doesn't contain every detail, but working from what you've given us it seems like: feel ready to devote some serious years of study to develop a profession that I can depend on for the rest of my life. I have been feeling a pull in this direction for some time now and am I ready to jump into it whole-heartedly. You really want this opportunity you have been given and you're aware of the possible positive impact it could have on the rest of your life. He worked (still does) 80 hours a week and over the past 4 years has had several promotions that have given him even more stress and repsonsibility on the job Seems a little unfair that he be given 80 hours per week for his career, yet you should be denied the possibility to embark on your own. Don't envy the stress though!! I also explained that my plans for school were partly motivated by my wanting a change from the way things were between us. Since then, he has given a serious effort to make things right between us. For the first time in years, I feel he is open to love again [but] he is not willing to pursue the relationship if I no longer am living with him. THerefore, I either go to law school this fall and break up with him, or I do not go to law school this fall and make our relationship the #1 priority So, he knows that your plans are motivated by the need for change, and this has obviously moved him to make extra effort in your relationship. He now tests your strength of love for him against something he knows you want as much. He's basically askng you what you consider more important, i.e., the title to your thread!! But he is doing it in a very manipulative way. As Moimeme pointed out, this needn't be such a huge problem, why can't he accompany you? You made sacrifices to be with him at the beginning of your relationship, now it's his time to reciprocate. I have high hopes for our relationship, and think we could get married one day. But am I throwing away a serious career opportunity for a pipe dream? I fear being financially dependent upon a person whom has shown lackluster interest in me for years If the high hopes you have are very much dependent on your acquisition of an improved future, then does that mean that without it your relationship won't survive? You believe you will be happier with your relationship if your job is better? Why is that? I read a response recently on another thread from a senior member (Im so sorry I can't credit, cos I'm not sure who it was) but they said that many people come to the board with their decision partially made and knowing deep down what they want. Is it possible you've made a decision inside and you need confirmation? In summary your interpretation seems littered with negatives about your relationship and places great emphasis on the positives of your opportunity to go to Law School. Just my opinion. xx
tree Posted August 10, 2003 Posted August 10, 2003 Thank you for your wise and sensitive feedback. I really appreciate your interest in offering your advice. Some clarification. 1) Yes, the decision I am making is really for myself. On the one hand, I really do love this man and we are good friends. It was the other half I was missing and that prompted me to look for other ways of making my life whole again. Intellectually, we meet at a level which is difficult for me to find with others. Plus, I am very much attracted to him and over the past 5 years he has matured in ways that are reassuring to his own committment to make us work. He has explained that the lack of intimacy (emotional and otherwise) is due to his being totally overworked at his job. 2) It is not easy for him to simply pick up and follow me. He is now a business big-wig. Those jobs are hard to come by, especially in an economically stagnant few years. In addition, there are only a few places in the U.S. that he could find a job of similar caliber. Lastly, if we did have a family, I could not imagine being able to come close to his ability to financially support a family. I consider his offer to relocate within the next year a serious indication of commitment. He is happy at his job (even though it seems to be an obstacle in moving our own relationship forward), and changing jobs (locations) to make me happy means a big deal. 3) He is 40 years old (slighly more than 10 years older than yours truly) and believes he is too old to have a relationship with someone who does not want to live with him. He believes he is able to support two people, does not care if I work, etc., so why would I want to leave and do my own thing? He believes it is a sign of a lack of interest or commitment on my part. And in a sense he is right. The last month has been great, but the previous 4 out of a total of 5 years had been frustrating to the point of me wanting to make a move. I believe he does not want to continue a half-baked (using pseudonym!) relationship and pretend it is serious. In fact, that is one of the same reasons I applied to law school myself. To give myself firm deadline to make a decision about us - to force an issue. I am also unwilling to make a half-hearted relationship the center of my life. 4) The other 2 main reasons for my wanting to go to law school are "push" and "pull" forces. The positive "pull" is my interest in learning about a powerful and central force in American, nay international government, politics, society. Learning about the law, in essence a social contract which is recognized and enforceable by most part of the world, is a fascinating area to learn about. I look at the nexus of economics, politics, class and group competition as important areas to understand if one is to get a sense of "how the world works." Law is one element among many which leads one to a better understanding of these macro issues. I want to get in there, and get skills to learn "how the world works." The "push" reason is that my relationship and location has been unfulfilling for a while and I felt like I needed to make a positive change in my life. My relationship with BF has been central in my life for years now, one of those situations that are "too good to leave, but too bad to stay." We are great friends, but it is not enough. I guess I am one of those folks who is not content with OK. Especially when I am such a believer in how awesome we could be together. There is another "push" reason for my having applied to law school. At this point, I can hardly carry my weight financially in our relationship. And learning from the mistakes of other (especially women) who have given up too much of their own career aspirations, I am wary of leaning so much on my partner for this kind of support. How many times have I heard from older women, "I gave up too much." OK, I realize that this is stemming from insecurity here, but "you can't argue with numbers." I mean, if 50% of marriages end up in divorce and common knowledge is that even couples who stay married have a less than 30% chance of actually being fufilled and happy with one another many years down the line. Looking at my own parents who are still (unhappily) married, I get cold feet about placing so much of myself in a relationship without having a solid means of taking care of myself (and maybe 1-2 other who may come along). 5) BF wants me to stay with him for next year and re-apply to law schools next year when we will be in a different location. That means that I will have to wait out another year.... Sigh. 6) The other option for me is to go to another, less considered law school 2 hours away, so that I could visit on the weekends. BF believes that even this is not doable. Not sure I totally understand why, but I guess that this is just how he works. From day 1 I have been confident that he is firmly (much more so that me) committed to having me be in the same physical space as me. I am the first serious GF he has had in almost 20 years, and my moving in with him 4 years ago put an end to his insomnia. I know that my being with him is important. I, on the other hand, am committed to having an intimate and understanding relationship, and I firmly believe that if we both want to improve our relationship, that this could be done if I lived 2 hours away. 7) Because our commitments are different, we can sometimes hurt each other by not understanding how we each communicate. We are both committed to each other, but niether of us can seem to "deal" if we don't get it in our way. He is commited to be being in the same physical space with him and if I do not want that, he thinks that is reason to break up. I, on the other hand, am committed to communicating, understanding and being passionate about one another, and since I have not gotten that from him for a few years, I have been on the way 'out.' In the past month, he has been more affectionate, etc. After loooooong wait, he is beginning to give me what I want. Argh. This makes my decision very hard......
clia Posted August 10, 2003 Posted August 10, 2003 He is not willing to pursue the relationship if I no longer am living with him. THerefore, I either go to law school this fall and break up with him, or I do not go to law school this fall and make our relationship the #1 priority. Oh, I see. It's okay for him to work 80 hours a week and put the relationship on the back burner, but it has to be the #1 priority in YOUR life? No offense, but this guy sounds pretty selfish to me. He has put you in a terrible position. It's all or nothing, but it doesn't sound like he's offered you very much on his end. Has he asked you to marry him? Has he talked about the future? Five years together is a long time. I'm wondering why he hasn't stepped up to the plate in the past four years. Do you really think he is going to make a long term commitment to you now if you bypass law school? Are you secure that he isn't going to drop you a year from now? I would hate to see you forego law school in favor of him when he doesn't seem all that invested in the relationship in the first place. Call me crazy, but I'd think if he was that worried about losing you he would do anything to keep you around instead of just issuing ultimatums. Law school is only three years long, with a month off at Christmas and your entire summer off. You can work near him during the summers and see him at Christmas. I think if you were really that important to him, he would be thrilled that you got into a great law school and would be willing to compromise a little over the next few years. I think you should lose the guy and go to law school.
xyz_212 Posted August 10, 2003 Posted August 10, 2003 you MUST go to school. It is a privalege to get accepted to a top law school. and if you pass the opportunity up - i can guarentee that you will look back with regret. it doesnt sound like things are 100% with the two of you anyway. It will be hard to give him up but if its meant to be - you'll end together anyway.
Tree Posted August 10, 2003 Posted August 10, 2003 Clia, Thank you for your response. I appreciate the opportunity to express myself on this forum. The difficulty I am having is between my head and my heart. BF has from day one expressed interest in a long relationship. He talks "10 years from now" sort of a thing. But no, marriage has never come up. I don't bring it up either to tell you the truth. He is also a very private person, and one of the main reasons I feel discontented. He says that he is straightforward when expressing what he thinks and feels, but when it comes to emotional things that are more difficulty, deep, complex, he is mum. I have to read between the lines. In the past year, for instance, he has been more domestically focused, talks about kids (other peoples' - he does not have any), and has become a good "father" to the dogs we share. This is markedly different than my first year living with him. From this, I sense that he is interested and open to having a more domestic life himself. We also enjoy a pleasant relationship, and we often go out on dates, and he is attentive to me in that way. He tries to think of fun things to 'do' with me. He is event-driven. I have no issue with this and in fact have come to enjoy his active lifestyle. The issue for me is that the events sometimes seem like a distraction from personal one-on-one focus. We have a great friendship, and then there is a wall. Admittedly, he has begun (just begun but it is a promising sign) to take a frew bricks down from that wall lately due to my "I have to leave" discussion. I feel that deep down he has deep feelings, but is scared to acknowledge them. I mean, he is 40 y.o. and yet I believe I am the first GF has had that he has even gotten this close to! So, small gestures in the emotion department carry much more significance. I seek meaning in small gestures and while I think it is there, it feels like I have to do drastic things (cause him personal pain and emotional torture!) to get even small things in that way. Perhaps because of his extreme privacy, he does not think that he can have a close and committed relationship with someone who is not living with him. Maybe my living with him, sleeping in the same bed, being the affection-giver in our relationship has given him an easy 'out' for all of these years? Maybe my not living with him will take away that physical closeness that he conflates with intimacy (which are really two separate issues for me - and the reason for my long-stemming dissatisfaction). Ugh - Just thinking about leaving makes my stomach churn. I am confident that I can make it on my own (heck, is it too hedonistic of me to say tha I actually really enjoy myself and have a great time with me, myself, I ? . I have an outoing personality, and caring, intelligent and enjoy other people's company. I tend to attract other people as well, so I am confident that if we do wind up breaking up that when I get my bearings again, that I will find happiness again with another. I guess the difficulty is that I really want things to work out between us. At this point, he is wanting more closeness than I am willing to give since I am at a crossroads and need to decide what I will do before I make a move in either direction....
moimeme Posted August 10, 2003 Posted August 10, 2003 he is wanting more closeness than I am willing to give Huh? This guy is too 'private' to communicate with you fully, won't discuss future plans, can't be intimate with you? So who is the one who wants 'closeness'? I also explained that my plans for school were partly motivated by my wanting a change from the way things were between us. Since then, he has given a serious effort to make things right between us. For the first time in years, I feel he is open to love again. Well, if he is that closed emotionally, that he is going outside of his comfort level in order to try to please you, even if it has taken an ultimatum of sorts, then perhaps he truly is committed to you and just has never learned how to be open. To give myself firm deadline to make a decision about us - to force an issue. I am also unwilling to make a half-hearted relationship the center of my life. Well, it sounds to me that he feels this ambiguity on your part and thinks that you separating from him will seal the deal; you will end it permanently. I don't think you are really trying to sort out whether or not you'll go to school; I think you are really trying to sort out whether you want to stay in the relationship. He's picked up on that so is trying to keep you from going far away enough that you will end it. Especially when I am such a believer in how awesome we could be together A lot of people (me included) will hang onto relationships because they can see the potential in the relationship or the person. Sadly, often that potential is never realized. You are saying that your guy is starting to come through with some of the things you want from him. Will it be enough? Only you can decide if you really, truly want to continue the relationship. If he is trying to work on issues which bother you, and if you are persuaded that he is sincere in trying to meet your needs, and if you would regret losing him, then perhaps it's worth sticking around for that one more year - it can be a 'testing' phase for you both; if by the end of that the relationship isn't closer to what you want, then go. It sounds as though your prospects in terms of education are quite good in that you will likely be accepted at that school or another school if you apply again. In fact, this may not be a final choice between career and relationship at all, rather it's a choice about relationship only.
clia Posted August 10, 2003 Posted August 10, 2003 BF has from day one expressed interest in a long relationship. He talks "10 years from now" sort of a thing. But no, marriage has never come up. This doesn't make any sense to me. If he's interested in a long term relationship with you and talks about the future, I find it really strange that marriage has never come up in the five years you have been with him. I don't care how emotionally retarded he is--five years is a long time, especially when you have been living together for four of those years, and double especially given both of your ages. Do you want to get married? Are you willing to wait another five years for the topic to come up? What if it never comes up? I don't know what to tell you, but it's not as if he's saying to you "Stay here, let's get married and start our life together." He just wants you to forget about law school so you can keep living with him. Is that enough for you?
my_mother's_daughter Posted August 11, 2003 Posted August 11, 2003 A lot of people (me included) will hang onto relationships because they can see the potential in the relationship or the person. Sadly, often that potential is never realized. You are saying that your guy is starting to come through with some of the things you want from him. Will it be enough? This is soooo true. We feel we have made an emotional commitment, and we tell ourselves that the relationship has real strengths and would be perfect "if only..../when......" and use it as a reason to not address the failings. NOT that I'm saying a relationship can or should be 'perfect', but this tactic seems to be used quite often when the failings outweigh the positives (seems so particularly to an outsider...I see friends do this all the time... )
Tree Posted August 12, 2003 Posted August 12, 2003 I feel a little odd making this update for the universe to see, but maybe someone out there will get some insight from it.... Since my last postings, BF and I have had some big and emotioanlly charged talks. I am bringing to light my doubts and fears, how I do not 100% trust him, etc. The lack of communication on his part (and mine as well) has caused me to come up with all sorts of interpretations of his behavior or lack thereof. For the 4 years we have been living together I have been wanting, nay, <needing> more communication on his part. And when I bring up something serious about 'us' or about the need for more communication, the response I get is usually vague and or 'jokey.' So, without the needed information about how to correctly interpret his actions, feelings, thoughts, I have to fill in the blanks myself with "good" and "bad" scenarios. Thus, my relationship with him has been mainly in my head. And since I am pretty imaginative, you can imagine the cooky scenarios I have created in my head. There is the crux of the problem - on my end, at least. I fail to understand his (what he assures IS) seriousness, commitment, decency, integrity, etc. And while I find it hard to imagine how someone can assume that one's behavior (which as we all know is multi-layered, complex and varied) simply explains one's character and commitment, with a minimum of explanation, he assures me that this is where he is coming from. "That is the world of John." BF explains that if he did not think that we would get married, have kids, have a trusting and committed relationship, that he would have ended things a long time ago. He assured me that he can do quite fine on his own and is not looking for someone to baby him or take care of him. He apparently is looking for, and thinks he has found a partner for life. The fact that I have serious doubts about his behavior is surprising to him, and he is still trying to understand the fact that I need so much communication, and reassurance. He doesn't need that, appreantly trusts my 100% and just assumes everything is great. And while in the past I haev brought up the fact that my needs and perspective is quite different than his, he is having a hard time even conceiving of my discontent. "Where is this coming from?" He feels somewhat flummoxed. So, while he has been assuming all of these things for many years - assuming that we are partners, that the foundation of our relationship is strong, that it is self-understood that we will spend the rest of our lives together - I have literally been living in a different world, with minimal overlap with his. While his relationship world was mainly one of contentment and full of assumed meaning, mine has been lacking of both. While he assumed that I understood him by actions he deemed meaningful on his part, I would apparently either fail to recognize them or fully understand their meaning. Likewise, when I have expressed my discontent in the past, he may have understood that as a small thing, whereas for me, many of these things were deal-breakers. Hence, when I felt like he trivialized things of such meaning, I felt... well... trivialized. I believe we operate differently, take different things for granted when we communicated in the past. I took it for granted that when I tell him I am serious about something that he actually understands what I mean. For me, subsequent lack of action on his part meant lack of interest, ability or commitment to do anything about it. On the other hand, he assumed that if I ceased pressing him on the topic up, that everything was fine and that I was happy with the result of whatever lesser action his took. He really has failed to understand the seriousness of my needs. In fact, while we were continuing our discussion this morning, the same scenrio played out. He assumed that because we had talked about his integrity last night, that I should assume that his integrity is a firm quality, and that, lacking any firm counter-example - that I am making stuff up when I feel the need to question it. "We had this discussion yesterday, we came to an understanding, and now it is over, right?" Seems to be his mind-set. "Why are we having this same discussion again?" Meanwhile, I am grappling with this in my own mind, dissecting it from different angles and needing much, MUCH more input and discussion about it, especially since I am bringing to bear YEARS of doubts about this. Having a 2 hour conversation does not erase years of doubts. No way. It took me a while to get here, and it is going to take some serious work to get me firmly out of it. He is havign a hard time grasping the idea that I need to talk about things "endlessly" after the crux of the matter has been discussed and in his mind, resolved. That seems to be the same issues we have been having for years. I have needed MUCH more input from him to even have a chance at resolving each issue. And because each conversation we have had in the past began great, but lacked any meaningful follow-through, he assumed everything was hunky-dorey, while I was left out in the cold. Thus, after years of not tying-up loose ends, I am left feeling like our relationship has little security or safety-net. While, he has left each conversation feeling like each issue was wrapped-up. Years of such differences has lead us to our current lack of understanding. Sure, we have been living together, but we were really having to very different relationships. I am still unresolved about what to do about law school. Like previous poster, BF suggests that I put off school for 1 year and that we plan on making future together - and moving to better location. He is being (as always) very supportive and provides me with confidence that we can make it and that everything will be alright. I am pushing back, and not letting go of this conversation. Until we commit to a structured process of making this relationship work for me, until I hash out most, if not all, of my fears and doubts and we begin to get through the obvious HORRIBLE communication habits we have both accumulated, then I cannot agree with him that everything will be all right. I have told him that I am resisting giving in to my law school plans b/c I was fed-up LAST YEAR. Ours are not new issues, and quite frankly, I am surprised at how clueless he is to my emotional state. I do believe that he wants to understand, but (excuse my stereotyping here) he is so used to living in 'boy-land' that my needs for communication and dialogue are quite alien to him. I don't believe that he is purposefully ignoring or neglecting my needs, I just don't think he gets it. SIGH - I am fighting back and resisting giving in to his desire to put an end to this discussion, and continue living with him for another year while LS is on hold. In the final analysis, this is what I did in the past, and it doesn't end up working. In the past, I gave into my HOPES after such discussions, and then when it was not followed-up by communication on his part, I got a bitter taste. Look what unhappy consequences that causes! I assume responsibility for my own short-comings here. It is not just his communication skills that fall seriously short, but mine as well. While he surely has responsibility for taking me seriously when I so indicate, I should not have dropped issues so quickly once he shows an inkling of reassurance. I believe he wanted to stay in the linear world of "let's discuss this then it is over," and I did not stick up to my guns and continuously demand (until I got it) that my own needs are met. Thus, I let him off the hook too soon and became sour and mistrustful, and meanwhile he thought everything was pretty good and resolved. I do trust that he has good intentions, but the challenge still remains if we can establish a structured (leading to habitual) procedure for finding a way to make us both happy. My compromise is to NOT go to the best school I was accepted to (which is really a big deal) IF he agrees to devote himself to improving things while I go to LS at a decent school two hours away. He is very resistant, but I am just as resistant to wait another year. He makes light of my self-generated pressure to not wait another year, and is having a hard time wrapping his mind around the fact that going to LS this year is a BIG DEAL for me. I am 30 y.o. and do not want to waste any time. Meanwhile, he is having a hard time grasping onto the possiblity of me moving out for a year (really 9 months) while we work on our relationship. School is 2 hrs away, and I could simply drive up on the weekends. I am having a hard time seeing why he believes that to be inconceivable, unworkable, just plain destructive. He believes that would be moving backwards rather than forwards - creating more distance between us rather than more closeness. He does not want a half-hearted relationship either and he (quite rightly) believes such a move would create that possiblity. He beileves that is a way OUT rather than a way INTO a better reality, and he is not willing to move backwards. I, on the other hand, would rather have a relationship where I do not live with him, but try and work things out with some space. I would rather have a meaningful relationship while NOT living with him, than an empty relationship while sleeping in his bed every night. And my own weaknesses are such that without my own space, I give in to his desires too quickly. My life currently resembles his pre-relationship life much more so than my pre-relationship life. I feel like I have lost important self-definition which has been having negative repercussions on our relationship. Basically, over the past few years, I have given into his life and mentality more so than is healthy. Consequently, I can't make him shoulder all of the blame for not understanding me. I did not FORCE issues which were important to me when I should have. I did occassionally, expecting that is enough communication on my part, but when push came to shove, I backed down, when deep down, things were not OK. On the other hand, when I do bring things up, he is quick to make light of them and I get the feeling he'd like to get it over with as soon as possible. Such a dynamic does not work out in the long run, as is self-evident.
moimeme Posted August 12, 2003 Posted August 12, 2003 I believe we operate differently, take different things for granted when we communicated in the past. I took it for granted that when I tell him I am serious about something that he actually understands what I mean. For me, subsequent lack of action on his part meant lack of interest, ability or commitment to do anything about it. On the other hand, he assumed that if I ceased pressing him on the topic up, that everything was fine and that I was happy with the result of whatever lesser action his took. He really has failed to understand the seriousness of my needs. Tree - you have summarized in a nutshell the communication problem which is so common to relationships! It's classic Mars and Venus stuff; again, Grey isn't one of my 'gurus', but certainly he has been a very good observer of communicaton in relationships and has discussed how these misunderstandings come about. Frankly, I think you expressed everything eloquently in your last post. If he doesn't know you're posting to a forum, can you copy it, substitut the 'hes' for 'yous' and give it to him in writing? I think sometimes that words in writing can be more easily grasped than the spoken word and he may be able to 'get' more of what you've been trying to tell him if you give it to him in writing. Or, have you thought about taking all this to a counsellor for a third perspective; someone objective who might be able to restate each of your cases to each other or help you to do so in a way that does 'get through'? You can have the same issues in another relationship but can you have the qualities you love about him? Why don't you try to sort out the communication either via writing or with a counsellor?
Tree Posted August 12, 2003 Posted August 12, 2003 Yes, you are quite right - I think that we have been living in girl-land and boy-land, both assuming that we understood one-another when we apparently didn't. The Mars/Venus topic came up as a nutshell explanation for how this could haev happened when we both have been sincere and well-intentioned about things. Niether of us has read his book, but the idea of us living on different planets - being able to see one another, but lving in different worlds seems to be an appropriate analogy. BF has been grappling with this idea for past two days and is putting forth what I believe is an honest effort to be more effective in communication. And I see that for things to work out I cannot live in a dreamworld of hopes and "best-case scenarios" when trying to understand him and his intentions/behavior. If I do not fully understand something, I have to press him on it, even if he resists, gets frustrated, angry whatever. And (well my "hope" at least") is that with his beginning to understand the seriousness of my needs, he will be more open to listening to me rather than assuming I am over-reacting. The alternative - of suffocating myself and/or assuming he does not care, is too selfish or is incapable of communication - is a dead-end. Operating on this level leads to such deep-rooted dissatisfactionon my part that it would be better to end things than live unhappily with him. So, the only solution is COMMUNICATION. Not just talking, but doing whatever I have to (or that he has to) to ensure that the Other understands. Plus, a good dose of trust may be the recipe for success. I think that I also tend to see our relationship with "doomsday" eyeglasses. In a way this makes sense b/c i have long-standing trust issues in addition to frustration, anger, etc. Maybe he is right in that I need more confidence that we can work it out. I guess in the end, I really do love him, think he is great and think that we have the potential to really make one another happy. He is giving me a firm and solid reassurance that he is serious about me and that he will do whatever it takes to make this work. (Unfortunately this does not involve counseling which I have been pressing for years and concerns me that this is a non-negotiable on his part. He apparently had a bad run-in when he was a kid and has already made up his mind that such a repeated experience would make things worse rather than better. Ah, let go of the past, you are no longer 9 y.o.!) I continue to have serious concerns that we can make it work without the interception of a wise 3rd party. Certainly getting objective and well-informed input would help us reinvent the wheel more quickly? As for LS, I'm not sure. I didn't bring that up last night since we were both so tired. He is still vehemently opposed to me moving out and is lobbying for me to wait a year. -sigh- On the other hand, he is also talking about marriage a bit, too which is nice. Hm. A part of me thinks that if we got engaged, with the intention of making that "solemn vow" or at least setting a date in a year (yikes!) that would give us both the incentive to work hard to make it work. Plus, that would give me a push to not settle for anything less than having a great, fulfilling and loving relationship - something that we have to work on to tell you the truth. Dunno... I really want us to be together, to be happy, and I think he is sexy as hell when he expresses himself to me. Even though it kind of freaks me out to think of being with him and no one else for the rest of my life, I think that -if we could make it work- that it would be the best decision of my life. I know he has the capability to make me happy and I can deal with his major weaknesses (he gets angry easily but has gotten progressively better) <IF I can keep things in perspective and if he reassures me regarding his intentions and communicates more with me.> I guess that latter part is what has totally SUCKED which in turn made happiness seem like an unlikely pipe dream. And as for me, I think I can make him happy if (and I hope I have this right here) I can make myself happy with him. That sounds somewhat, I forget the term... like a solicism (?) (thinking that the world revolves around you) but I think there is an inkling of truth in it. After all, he seemed to be satisfied with things and is hurt when I tell him I am totally fed up, don't trust him, etc.... This means I have to make sure that I am getting across to him at least the critical morsels of what I need. He assures me that he wants to satisfy me and he needs to know how. And last night, after some hard gulps, he mentioned that he will try to let me know about his thoughts and feelings. (I realize that this is hard for him. I hope not too hard, though....) He assured me that even though he does not tell them to me, that they are there. (So TELL me for goodness sake! I can't read your mind!) Well, I didn't say that since I was wanting to respect his effort to say that, but maybe I'll bring it up again tonight. He also mentioned that I could be nicer to him. He thinks that I try to read his mind and then assume some bad things and treat him accordingly. So, he gets the brunt of my negative fantasies even though he has not done anything wrong. Like this morning, I was getting ready and he called my name, and I quickly reacted defensively, thinking that he was going to criticize me for being too slow (heck, it happens frequently so I assumed a defensive posture). I snapped at him and he was hurt since he was just going to ask me to do a favor for him while he was a work today. Luckily rather than become defensive himself, he explained that he was hurt about this and that I may want to be more open to what he has to say rather then assume the worst. I see that. And was sorry for having snapped at him. I guess I haev some bad habits too. You see? We are both at least somewhat self-aware and hence have the potential to check ourselves and be open to one-another's suggestions. Hm. I think what we need is a plan. A structured plan. A structured for discussing things would bolster the areas in which I am weak (not wanting to press things or bring things up and then they build and build until I explode). And maybe we could turn off the TV for an hour a night so we can talk to each other eye-to-eye rather than next to each other but looking straight ahead. I think it may be awkward at first, but at this point, getting ourselves out of the comfort zone and shaking things up is what is needed. The window of possibility is open now, and I guess now is the time to set the groundwork for better habits if we are to habitualize a new process.
moimeme Posted August 13, 2003 Posted August 13, 2003 You see how your musings on paper are leading you to answers to your questions? Nifty how that works If not a counsellor, how's about a course? Or a book? The Idiot's Guide to Relationship isn't bad. Pre-marital courses can help couples work through issues by asking questions for both to answer and discuss; sort of a disembodied third party. It sounds like you're both on your way and you are absolutely right, as you know, about communication. I am also glad to see your insights about your possibly assuming the worst too quickly; I see that in a lot of couples and it's sad - as though they still can't trust that the other has their interests at heart no matter how much love they might have shown. That really drives people apart. The only thing that concerns me is what you said about being 'freaked out' to think of being with him and no one else for the rest of my life. I married because the idea that freaked me out was the thought of losing my guy and never seeing him again. I didn't want anybody else. It seems that you are on your way. You might want to keep these notes you've written to refer to later. It's amazing how we get all great and wise and reasonable only to change into crabby wretches when life starts hurling brickbats at us. It is then that looking back and being reminded of our earlier attitudes can be real helpful.
cliche_boy Posted August 13, 2003 Posted August 13, 2003 "But am I throwing away a serious career opportunity for a pipe dream?" Yeah, what if things dont work out for you, then you'll be like "damn, i was going to go to law school, but i didnt for him" But you also have to look at the other possibility, what if things do work out, what if youve thrown away a happy married life for a career? It is a tough decission to make. He doesnt like to talk about u moving away cos it hurts him, but loves you enough to want whats best for ya. Personally ide say stay, cos the same thing has happen to me before, my GF was gonna move away but stayed for me. If you stay your relationship will be alot stronger, put alot of pressure on making your relaionship work, appreciate each other more and your relationship will be better for it. He wouldnt dare dump ya unless it was for a really strong reason. Due to my experience ide suggest staying with him, but you have a better grasp on the reality of the situation than ne1 else on these boards.
cliche_boy Posted August 13, 2003 Posted August 13, 2003 oh and you may feel distanced from him, like hes distancing himself from you, but thats because he thinks you might be leaving him, hes preparing for you to go, hes putting up a defence to stop himself from getting hurt. You watch how all his bottled up love for you spews out when you tell him that your staying. It'll be overwhelming love. His 1st reaction will be 1 of guilt that hes kept you here - but he wouldnt have it ne other way.
Tree Posted August 13, 2003 Posted August 13, 2003 For everyone who has posted so far, thank you. I really appreciate your input. Thank you. Just curious - for those who have posted so far, what is your relationship history like? I'm interested in what has worked for you and what hasn't. WHy some relationships ended and some have. I am also especially curious to hear from folks who haev long-term relationships - those 10 years+ What advice can you give? I know there will be inevitable good and bad times, and I think I lose perspective (either way, to tell you the truth). Wht should those of us do who want to stay the course? Thanks in advance.
BklynGuy Posted August 16, 2003 Posted August 16, 2003 My advice would be focus on your career. Love is great and wonderful while it lasts, but it may not last forever. Your career, the time and energy you have invested in yourself will always be there and nobody will be able to take that away from you. I did everything for my ex-g/f and she just ended the relationship after 4 1/2 years. I now wish I had spent that time in college getting my degree. I am young (24) and there are still many things ahead of me. I'm broken hearted now but will not be forever. You must always be your first priority.
Half Full of Empty Posted August 16, 2003 Posted August 16, 2003 Hi Tree. You were kind enough to share your thoughts with me regarding my situation, so I'd like to take this opportunity to return the favor. The decision to go to law school is not one that should be made without careful consideration. It will require a tremendous amount of effort and time devoted to your studies. As a graduate from a top ten law school myself, I survived not in spite of my partner, but because of her. She was incredibly supportive and understanding of the demands it placed on me both mentally and physically. I should also mention that she followed me across the country (without me even expecting her to...but pleasantly surprised) to be with me after graduation from undergrad. To this day, her parents have never forgiven me for "taking their little girl away" to California. (just kidding) My opinion is this: If you really want to attend law school and would do so if the siutuation were different and your boyfriend supported this decision, then I would go no matter what....even without his blessing. If he really loves you, he should want this for you and support you in your choice of career. Perhaps you could convert this to a long distance relationship during your first year (which is by far the hardest) which would give you the time and space necessary to focus on fun things like torts and civil procedure. Then, if all goes well, perhaps he could join you if his career allows? The bottom line: It would be a shame to allow an opportunity like this to pass by and later regret it, always wondering "what if?" Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck.
Tree Posted August 18, 2003 Posted August 18, 2003 After talking with a friend the other day, I realize that my decision is like most others in the world. If you are deciding between your head and your heart, your heart will always win. So it is with me. I have decided to make the leap and to work things out in the next year with BF. I have swings from side to side about this. We have had several conversations about how we feel, future plans, how we can create a process that will work for both of us. Mostly constructive, (I guess BF's persistence, confidence, and willingness to open-up has been key, here) these conversations give me the idea that we could continue to build a future together, rather than one apart. While I have yet to fully integrate the idea of putting off law school for a year (I am really unhappy about that), I think it is worth it. It is a gamble, but this pressure seems to be making both of us open and honest to each other on a consistent basis for the past month. This, in fact, was the problem with our relationship and I am going to work hard to make this work. I am trusting him to live up to his word and do the same. The good news is that he is being openly affectionate, tender even. Even though he might not 'get' the fact that I need this, especially now, he is doing this. I think he feels a bit like an "affection robot," but well, it works for me. At my negative moments, I feel despondent over the decision b/c I have been planning this for some time. In addition, I can't think of a good-sounding 'letter of deferral' idea that will go over well with the admissions committee. I believe they look down at requests for deferrals except in emergency situations. "Wanting to work on BF relaitonship" sounds so fluffy, I'd rather just re-apply next year - ugh. BF quite rightly believes we should work together to figure out our future - rather than regretting the past. This is quite a bit step for me, as I believe we have both been distant for some time (me b/c of dissatisfaction, him apparently due to work stress and commitments). When I think about spending a year looking for something constructive to do with my time, I totally stress out. But the new attention and connection that he is initiating is promising, consistent over recent month or so, and seems genuine. In fact, he now seems to be speeding ahead in terms of intimacy and commitment speech, and I am faced with my emotional roadblocks to catch up. It is bizarre - sometimes I am totally in love with this guy and am ecstatic that we are molding our lives together. At other times, I feel like I am giving up a lot (too much) and am angry that he has not given his support to continue long distance for a year. I am on an emotional roller-coaster. Well, I have made my decision for the next year. I can't stand the fact that I have to put profession on hold, but I am in wonderment about BF's brave initiation of a new future for us. Continuing to be cranky about my decision won't help anyone, especially "us" which is the only reason I am doing this. Wow. A whole new world out there.... Now my mission is to make it the best future for me and for us that can exist. What a U-turn from thinking about Me to thinking about Us! -Tree
moimeme Posted August 19, 2003 Posted August 19, 2003 Very best of luck in this, Tree. It sounds like you have a guy that you'd regret losing - and in the end, it isn't a career that keeps you warm at night or tends to you when you're ill. This society is 'way too focused on work IMHO. Is there any way you could do some sort of distance study over the next year that would serve as credit towards your degree?
Tree Posted August 19, 2003 Posted August 19, 2003 Thanks M- Well, I guess that is what I have to figure out! I started a small business venture last year, so I could continue developing that.... I'm also looking at doing some work at the local Legal Services Org. (though international law seems more my cup of tea, there are not many opportunities to do that here.) So, yeah, I am trying to keep my head up. BF is being good about helping me with this. At times I am thirlled about his committment to me, and our developing closeness, and at other times, I just wish I could be on my way getting a law degree WHILE that closeness was developing. Oh well, I have chosen, and I am getting better readjusting my thinking to look for future opportunities rather than think about the opportunity that I have put on hold.... Hey - Half Full of Empty.... As a someone infused in the legal world, do you have any advice for a letter of deferral? Would they look down at my taking a year to develop my small business? I can't imagine mentioning personal life would help my case.... - Any insight?
Half Full of Empty Posted August 19, 2003 Posted August 19, 2003 Deferrals can be tricky and tolerance varies from one school to the next. Generally speaking, however, my understanding is that most schools do grant deferrals for special circumstances. For instance, I recall a student at my school received a deferral after having won a scholarship to spend a year studying abroad. Often, a law schools will accept such opportunities or personal circumstances as justifying such leniency. The best advice, though, might be to check with someone at your specific school about their deferral policy and, perhaps, the circumstances about which you are asking. Also, they will most likely have specific application you will need to complete so you may want to get the information first before developing or communicating your motivation for the deferral. Good luck and feel free to let me know if you need any additional advice or assistance (here or privately if you prefer)
Tree Posted August 20, 2003 Posted August 20, 2003 Thanks Hal-Full. I would have taken you up on your offer to go over my letter, but this morning I received a call from the local law school (not a great school, but a reputable institution nonetheless) indicating my acceptance! The upside is that I get to start (on Monday) and I am relieved that I have a plan. The downside is that it is only part-time which may lessen my chances of getting accepted as a transfer student. Still, I am happy that I have a plan for the next year and am moving forward career-wise. I immediately accepted the offer and am on my way... By the way, I'd be interested in your insight on the legal profession. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to email some Qs regarding your experience. From the sounds of it (could be wrong), you work in corporate law? - assumed from the number of hours and level of stress! At any rate, I'd be interested in your opinion of various experiences within the legal profession. I'm sure I'll meet many folks who can answer my Qs as I attend law school, but I have a hunch that you have some interesting and "from the gut" experiences. Later!
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