carhill Posted August 10, 2008 Posted August 10, 2008 I call those little 4 bangers in Honda's "rice burners" There might be something loose or leaking. The engines have balance shafts and are usually very smooth and quiet. My wife has a 96 Acura with a similar engine. Very reliable. Hers is nearing 200K and I'm going to do the cam belt in a couple months, once the heat outside dies down If you know someone you trust who can replace the belt, the parts are relatively inexpensive, under 200.00 for OEM, and you can get a rebuilt water pump (if the water pump needs to be removed, I recommend it) for a few more bucks. 1800 is likely a bit high but if it's clean and low-mileage, it could turn out to be a good deal.
Author mopar crazy Posted August 11, 2008 Author Posted August 11, 2008 I call those little 4 bangers in Honda's "rice burners" There might be something loose or leaking. The engines have balance shafts and are usually very smooth and quiet. My wife has a 96 Acura with a similar engine. Very reliable. Hers is nearing 200K and I'm going to do the cam belt in a couple months, once the heat outside dies down If you know someone you trust who can replace the belt, the parts are relatively inexpensive, under 200.00 for OEM, and you can get a rebuilt water pump (if the water pump needs to be removed, I recommend it) for a few more bucks. 1800 is likely a bit high but if it's clean and low-mileage, it could turn out to be a good deal. LOL! My brother calls them "Rice Grinders." We were talking about Fast and the Furious movie and that is when I heard him call them "Rice Grinders." I trust him to check it out and replace what needs to be replaced but I owe him so much money now I would hate to add to my bill, ugh. Hopefully the belt isn't too bad and can last awhile. It has 124,000 miles on it. Not exactly clean inside but the exterior is in good shape. So, you think she paid too much? We looked at them when she said she bought it and they were over $3,000 for all of them.
Lizzie60 Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 Lizzie, don't get her a brand new car. As soon as she drives it off the lot is depreciates like $3,000 or something like that. Get her a used car. My parents bought a brand new car one time, nothing but problems. My supervisor bought a brand new car a few months ago and it has already been in the shop four or five times! At least once a month. My brother's both said not to buy brand new. My BIL is a mechanic also and said he would never buy a brand new car. You have to do what you feel and while it would be nice to drive that car off the lot brand new I will never buy brand new after all the horror stories I have heard from ppl who bought brand new. Mopar.. I was a bit sarcastic here.. she's only 9 months..
Trialbyfire Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 Here's something that might be of interest to your son mopar, about timing belt changes. http://autorepair.about.com/library/a/1h/bl766h.htm
Jilly Bean Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 It has 124,000 miles on it. Ouch. Beacoup mileage. Is your MIL going to open her wallet again when all these repairs start creeping up? And listen to Carhill - out of everyone on here, he is THE guy to talk cars about.
Author mopar crazy Posted August 11, 2008 Author Posted August 11, 2008 Mopar.. I was a bit sarcastic here.. she's only 9 months.. I knew she was only an infant but they grow up so fast! She will be 16 b4 ya know it.
Author mopar crazy Posted August 11, 2008 Author Posted August 11, 2008 Here's something that might be of interest to your son mopar, about timing belt changes. http://autorepair.about.com/library/a/1h/bl766h.htm Thanks Tbf, I will have him check it out. As for her paying the price for the repairs, I had to LOL at that one. She wont do that. She will come back w/ a "That is being a responsible car owner, you need to take care of it." I am going to take it into my brother this week and have him check it out.
carhill Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 Couple things... He didn't pay "too much". If it had the cam belt done by 95K like it was supposed to, that'd be about right. Other issues will be radiator and brakes. Have brother check fluid condition in auto trans (assuming). Even with the belt done on my wife's car, which is a 5spd Acura Integra SE, she'd be lucky to get 3K out here in Cali and it's a one-owner car. They just don't bring a lot on the used market. The cam belt tutorial is really cool but it is a lot harder than it looks. I think his engine is a single overhead cam (SOHC), so much easier than my wife's engine, which is DOHC....getting those teeth lined up can be tricky The tutorial did tell me that you will want to get a rebuilt water pump, since you have to pull the original one anyway. I'd also recommend OEM (as in Honda brand) parts for the belt, idler, gaskets, etc. I've had real good luck with Acura OEM parts in my wife's car and they're not that expensive (I buy them over the internet, not from our local dealer). BTW, I finally changed the OEM brakes on my wife's car at 165K last year. They still had more left but I figured they'd gone long enough. Rotors just took a light clean in the lathe and about 40 bucks in pads and away she went. So, hopefully, you'll have similar luck. Something else for brother to check out. Oh, one wheel bearing went out last year too. It'll feel like a light pulsing in the steering wheel and will make a light whining noise. I thought it was the CV (constant velocity) joint and replaced that shaft assembly, but it turned out to be the wheel bearing. You'll need a press for that job. Anyway, I'm anal so don't worry. Son will be fine
Jilly Bean Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 Couple things... He didn't pay "too much". If it had the cam belt done by 95K like it was supposed to, that'd be about right. Other issues will be radiator and brakes. Have brother check fluid condition in auto trans (assuming). Even with the belt done on my wife's car, which is a 5spd Acura Integra SE, she'd be lucky to get 3K out here in Cali and it's a one-owner car. They just don't bring a lot on the used market. The cam belt tutorial is really cool but it is a lot harder than it looks. I think his engine is a single overhead cam (SOHC), so much easier than my wife's engine, which is DOHC....getting those teeth lined up can be tricky The tutorial did tell me that you will want to get a rebuilt water pump, since you have to pull the original one anyway. I'd also recommend OEM (as in Honda brand) parts for the belt, idler, gaskets, etc. I've had real good luck with Acura OEM parts in my wife's car and they're not that expensive (I buy them over the internet, not from our local dealer). BTW, I finally changed the OEM brakes on my wife's car at 165K last year. They still had more left but I figured they'd gone long enough. Rotors just took a light clean in the lathe and about 40 bucks in pads and away she went. So, hopefully, you'll have similar luck. Something else for brother to check out. Oh, one wheel bearing went out last year too. It'll feel like a light pulsing in the steering wheel and will make a light whining noise. I thought it was the CV (constant velocity) joint and replaced that shaft assembly, but it turned out to be the wheel bearing. You'll need a press for that job. Anyway, I'm anal so don't worry. Son will be fine See, Mopar? What did I tell ya. He knows EVERYTHING about cars. LS's resident expert! He'll diagnose and price the whole thing for you from his living room.
Trialbyfire Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 Never work on an unfamiliar modern car without the proper manual or access online to some form of technical specs from the manufacturer. You're asking for a whole lotta' problems, extra time, skinned knuckles, broken tools and frustration without them.
carhill Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 Next purchase for shop will be a lift so I can fix every family member's car. They, of course, will pay the mortgage OP, assuming this is son's first car (?), you'll want to have brother train him in proper maintenance and to not continue driving the car if the check engine light comes on or he hears funny noises. It's called protecting his investment He can learn to do a lot of the simple stuff himself and the honda forums have great tips for upkeep as well as modifications if he wants to play with the car. BTW, while Jilly flatters me greatly, I have no formal training. My dad was a CPA who knew how to insert the ignition key (IOW knew nothing about cars). I'm totally self-taught. Just another hobby I picked up as a teen and stuck with. Maybe the bug will bite your son, too I always recommend consulting a professional mechanic and often do. They consult me about machine work, so it's a trade-off. *Adding, seeing TBF's posting, yeah, it's a good idea to always buy the factory service manual if doing one's own service work. I've got manuals going back to the 1960's for some of our vehicles. There's always little nuances and tricks.* I hope everything works out with MIL. She sounds like she has an old-fashioned idea about training kids with money. My dad used to do that. He'd draw up contracts, write out schedules of payment and, later, "forgive" some of it. The purpose was training a philosophy about money. He never lent me money for a car. I had to pay cash for it/them and have the monthly income to pay insurance. If you want something bad enough, you figure out a way
Jilly Bean Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 BTW, while Jilly flatters me greatly, I have no formal training. No, but you have spent 30 years actually working on cars, so your advice weighs a lot more than having her read a manual. Anyone can do that, but the actual EXPERIENCE is what rates. I'd have you fix my car and I'd pay your mortgage for it.
Author mopar crazy Posted August 11, 2008 Author Posted August 11, 2008 Thanks carhill for all your advice. I appreciate you giving it. I hate bugging my little brother so much. My BIL is also a mechanic so I called him last night and my sister ripped into me for calling and bothering them about the car when they had their own personal problems to deal w/. I am so f@cking tired of her attitude. When life isn't going the greatest for them and you call to ask a question they both jump down your throat. Ok, that is another thread. What is the difference between a cam belt and a timing belt? I don't know much about cars even though I grew up w/ three mechanics. Horses were my things. My dad tried to teach me a little bit about maintenance but he didn't get into great details. Just showed me how to check my fluids and air pressure in my tires. And since I am a female, I just never had the desire to learn but wish I would have. I would actually love to drive a drag car, that has always been something I wanted to do. While I did my fair of illegal street racing it's just isn't the same. I told my brother I will be bringing it in this week. I will keep in mind the things you suggested but I know he will know what to look for. He better look at it and not one of his other mechanics though. Some times I feel like the one tells me I need something replaced and I don't, or something happens to my car when I go in for a simple checkup. One time I took my Sebring out there as the belt was making noises. I walked out of there w/ a 500+ bill b/c while he was trying to fix the belt the fuel pump went out. The car was running great besides that belt. He did his thing to get it fixed, went to start my car and it wouldn't start. That isn't the first time something like this has happened. The guy must be jinxed when it comes to my cars. Thanks again.
carhill Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 What is the difference between a cam belt and a timing belt? Different phrases to describe the same thing, in an overhead cam engine. I think, technically, timing belt is more correct, but I alway say cam belt because is faster (camshaft belt being correct usage). Only a few overhead cam engines have timing "chains" (meaning a metal chain, kinda like a superduty bike chain), but tons of engines that have traditional camshaft locations in their engine blocks have chains. A 'belt" is a non-metallic toothed band, generally made from synthetic polymers and Kevlar, which connects the camshaft to the crankshaft. There are grooved pulleys on both which engage the belt and synchronize the camshaft to the engine, properly opening and closing the valves in the cylinder head to admit or exhaust air. On an "interference engine", if the cam belt fails, the valves can hit the pistons, destroying or seriously damaging the engine. This is because, during certain portions of the intake and exhaust valve lift cycle, the valve can be where the piston would hit it if at top dead center in the cylinder. When the belt fails, the engine continues spinning for some time, and, if any valves end up in their full open positions, the piston(s) hit them. Ouch. That repair would essentially junk the car. One time I took my Sebring out there as the belt was making noises. I walked out of there w/ a 500+ bill b/c while he was trying to fix the belt the fuel pump went out. I won't say this never happens, but it has never happened to me in all the years I've worked on cars. My first instinct is a mechanic is padding the bill. But, since it's your brother's shop, I doubt that. Sometimes, people inadvertently disturb things when they're working, or reinstall things improperly and you have problems. I'm very anal about all that stuff (my engineering training and race car building experience) so it just hasn't happened to me.....yet I call those Honda's "200K cars" because they'll run pretty much undisturbed for 200K miles with decent maintenance. That's really reliable, in my book. My wife's (Acura's have Honda engines) would likely go 300K if she wanted to keep it that long. Hope everything goes well with the checkup.
Author mopar crazy Posted August 11, 2008 Author Posted August 11, 2008 Well, I spoke to my mil that it may need to be replaced and labor alone would be approx $300. According to my research it would be 5.5 hours on the books for the labor and my brother charges about $50 an hour. While I told her the part should be around $30-$40 (if that site was accurate) it's the labor that is going to cost so much. She emails me back and tells me that seems awful high for it but she wouldn't know, she isn't a mechanic. She told me maybe she shouldn't have purchased the car if it's going to have so much in repairs pumped into it. I told her the timing belt needs to be replaced every 60,000 miles and it should be replaced within the next 10,000 miles. She said that her BIL said it ran well and didn't think anything was wrong. I told her that right now there may not be anything wrong but the timing belt is going to start showing signs of wear and tear w/ cracks and such. I know what a bad belt looks like. Anyhow, I told her if the belt breaks the engine could be totally ruined. So, that is why it needs to be checked out and replaced if it is starting to show signs of wear and tear. My mom seems to think since she wanted to buy the car b4 we were even ready for him to have one she should be paying my brother for the repair. Thanks carhill for all the advice. You know your stuff! I know who I need to go to if I don't want to bother my brother, lol
carhill Posted August 12, 2008 Posted August 12, 2008 For the repair, you'll need a belt, a water pump, an idler pulley/tensioner, and a gasket/seal set. There might be some other minor parts, but those are the major ones. Anything which interfaces with the cam belt that as a wear/maintenance item should be replaced since you don't want to dig in there again Belts typically "look" fine, even moments before failure. That's why they are replaced on a regular basis, rather than being "inspected". Sure, they will last longer than the proscribed interval, but, once you substantially invade the safety margin, you increase your risks. Recently, the tread separated on one of the tires on my diesel pickup. I felt a slight vibration in the steering wheel for about 20 seconds and then had an explosive separation in the left front tire, sending us into oncoming traffic on the highway. Fortunately we missed oncoming traffic and ended up in a drainage ditch on the side of the highway. I had no real warning and no control. The elements of a tire are essentially similar to those in a cam belt and the method of failure is very similar. Not a pleasant experience, trust me. Be prepared for brother to find other minor issues. He'll advise you whether you can delay fixing them or not. I'd trust his judgement. Remember, all vehicles deal with these issues, not just ones MIL's provide
Author mopar crazy Posted August 13, 2008 Author Posted August 13, 2008 I know, if it wasn't this car it would be another so I tried to reassure her it wasn't what she did by buying it and not to blame herself. I still don't agree w/ what she did, but not much we can do about it. My parents said I should have refused it w/ a "thank you but we are really looking into something else for him." I can't remember if I posted this as I don't feel like going back through the thread (long day at work and I am exhausted) but I have voiced my thoughts to H about it. He said he knows this isn't the car our son wants. He said this will just be his practice car (he just started driving) and when he gets enough money saved he can go get what he really wants as long as he can afford it, the fuel, and the insurance. When that time comes H is going to keep the Honda for a work car since we live 15 miles from where we work and the kids go to school. My son would really like is a Dodge. That's my son!
Jilly Bean Posted August 13, 2008 Posted August 13, 2008 My mom seems to think since she wanted to buy the car b4 we were even ready for him to have one she should be paying my brother for the repair. Thanks carhill for all the advice. You know your stuff! I know who I need to go to if I don't want to bother my brother, lol I agree with your Mom! Your MIL buys a car for him without his consent, makes him pay her back for a price he wasn't even able to negotiate, and now the car already needs repairs? Yeesh. I think MIL SHOULD be taking some of this edge off for sure. I am sure she was well-intended, but I don't see how your son is responsible for her good intentions gone bad. And I told you about Carhill! He IS the resident go to guy of cars.
Author mopar crazy Posted August 13, 2008 Author Posted August 13, 2008 I agree with your Mom! Your MIL buys a car for him without his consent, makes him pay her back for a price he wasn't even able to negotiate, and now the car already needs repairs? Yeesh. I think MIL SHOULD be taking some of this edge off for sure. I am sure she was well-intended, but I don't see how your son is responsible for her good intentions gone bad. And I told you about Carhill! He IS the resident go to guy of cars. I know, when I told her that it will need a timing belt, and might as well get a new water pump along w/ it, plus the exhaust sounds awful, she said maybe she shouldn't have bought the car. Well, she is partly right. I think she was trusting that since she bought it from her BIL it MUST be in great shape. Well, he hardly ever drove it, had only changed the oil one time in a year and half b/c he only drove it 200 miles the whole time he owned it. Whether he drove it or not, the oil still should have been changed. Don't know how long it's been sitting and not been driven. I have never decided on a car purchase w/o a test drive, checking the engine out, etc. I will only buy from my brother now. When I haven't bought from my oldest brother the cars had major mechanical problems w/ in a few weeks to a few months after I purchased them. Knock on wood that the last three I have bought from him haven't nickeled and dimed me. My point is, she didn't know anything about this car and just b/c family is selling it doesn't mean it's the best. I don't think my mil's BIL knows a lot about cars either. I checked under the hood for the first time the other day and was not too happy. There has to be an oil leak somewhere. And H has been driving it and he thinks there is a hole in the muffler. No wonder it sounds like crap.
carhill Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 If it'll be a bit until brother looks at the car, or if he doesn't have a hot pressure washer to clean the engine, take it to the self car wash and clean the engine up, both top and bottom. It'll look better and you'll/he'll more easily be able to spot oil leaks. From my experience with Honda engines, they'll come from the oil pan drain plug, valve cover gasket and front crankshaft snout seal. Modern engines, if hardly driven, won't be markedly affected by a long oil change interval, as long as the oil is changed prior to the vehicle being put into regular service again. Even vintage engines can be OK. My Mustang sat garaged for 5 years at my mom's, started only monthly and never driven, but I had no issues bringing it home 30+ miles from her house to ours. Didn't even baby it Under most circumstances, low speed daily driving (like in-town only) is a lot harder on the engine than not being operated at all, as long as the car is stored correctly. If the car hasn't been abused, my instinct is that it'll be fine. The pipe from the manifold to the cat might even be a counter part (I don't know) if that's what's leaking exhaust, so could be user-replaceable (by brother) rather than having to go to a muffler shop. Remember, it's just a machine and works amazingly well most of the time. Give it a little TLC and son will be fine
Trialbyfire Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 If a car isn't driven regularly or left to sit for extended periods of time, watch out for dry-rot in the hoses. Some may need to be replaced regardless of wear and tear. Age isn't just a number in a car.
carhill Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Generally, if indoor storage time exceeds the normal service life of a part, say like a radiator or heater hose, as well as tires (boy, my recent experience with that was an eye-opener ), then those parts should be considered for appropriate maintenance when the vehicle is returned to regular service. Outdoor storage is a huge variable, due to heat, cold and ozone/UV factors, IME. The good news is that designs and materials continue to improve, lengthening normal maintenance cycles
Jilly Bean Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 I checked under the hood for the first time the other day and was not too happy. There has to be an oil leak somewhere. And H has been driving it and he thinks there is a hole in the muffler. No wonder it sounds like crap. Oh, wow! Now, this would be the final straw for me. She forced a car on him, at a price he had to accept, and now you suspect it has additional issues? Ugh. I know she was well-intended, but I don't see how her mistake needs to become your problem. If it were me, and you find an oil leak, or a hole in the muffler, I'd tell her to give the car back to her BIL.
carhill Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 An alternative would be, if otherwise a sound vehicle, for your son to receive an appropriate price adjustment equal to the amount of the repairs to make the vehicle road-worthy, as he/you didn't have the opportunity to have it looked at by a competent mechanic prior to sale. The car in good sellable condition, absent <the need for> such repairs, is worth about what he paid for it. If they don't agree, give it back and walk away.
Author mopar crazy Posted August 16, 2008 Author Posted August 16, 2008 Well, there is some major issues w/ this POS car! I rode it in last night for the first time. I sat in the back and OMG there has to be a hole in the muffler b/c it is loud!!! I literally had to plug my ears. Once he stopped accelerating it wasn't bad. I can sit and listen to my little brother rev up his pro stock drag car and have NP w/ that hurting my ears, in fact I love the sound, but that damn Honda sounds like *****!. So, now it needs a new muffler, I heard the brakes squeal when ds stopped the car. It needs new tires, and the timing belt and the water pump. All this will cost more than what we paid for the POS in the first place. I told dh we need to give it back to his uncle and have him pay his mom back but he wont. It needs to much work done all at once. I can see doing little things here and there but all at once, nope. H said when they picked up the car and drove it home that day it ran fine and the muffler didn't make the sounds it did last night.
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