RobertLS Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 This is my first post on this website. I just found this website today and was reading a thread from 2005 in which a woman described a situation very close to my own where she was in an ok marriage and was wondering about giving it up for the possibility of a much better relationship, http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t70365. There were some differences between her and my situation, but the thought processes she was going through, the crazy surges of feelings that overwhelmed her about whether to stay or leave her marriage are what I’m going through. She was only 30, had been married 6 years, had no kids, never felt a strong chemistry with her husband. I’m early 50’s, been married over 25 years, have two teenage kids getting ready to leave home, and did have SOMEWHAT of a good connection with my wife a long time ago. My first question is to MeterMaid, the woman who first posted her dilemma back in 2005. Do you still read this forum, and if so, what ever happened? She hasn’t posted since 2005, and I don’t expect to hear from her, but you never know….. Second, I’m wondering if anyone else has been in this situation and can offer their experiences. My wife and I let life get in the way of our marriage. We didn’t make it a priority, it has fallen apart, and we’re now going through counseling to try to figure things out. She is more committed to working things out than I am, and I’m struggling with that. I truly believe the best scenario for us is to stay married and rebuild our relationship. The problem for me is that I basically pulled out of our marriage several years ago. As our counselor has described, we’ve been living in a state of “invisible divorce” for quite a while. It’s a perfect description of our situation -- we're married on paper, but that’s about it. I care about her, I want her to be happy, I don’t want to hurt her feelings, but I’ve lost my marital feelings for her. It’s almost like she’s a sister to me, not a wife. I don’t look forward to spending time with her, I’m not sexually attracted to her, I don’t feel like planning the rest of our lives together, I really AM invisibly divorced. Our counselor has described my feelings as “I don’t want to stay in the marriage, but I don’t want to leave.” I’m on the fence. My main reason for not leaving is the kids. If it weren’t for them, I’m pretty sure I would’ve left a while ago. I also don’t want to hurt my wife, and it pains me to think about leaving when she wants to keep things alive. That eats at me a lot. It makes me think she deserves someone better than me, or at least that there IS someone better than me for her. She says she still loves me, and that may be true to some extent, but she’s also said that she’s scared of living alone, growing older alone, starting over. She’s comfortable living with me and doesn’t want to face uncertainty. Her feelings and the thought of hurting her is a secondary reason why I haven’t left, and it would make it hard for me if we did decide to split up. Now the really confounding thing about this is that until a few months ago, I was perfectly ok with living out a marriage like this, where we were like roommates living under the same roof. In fact, when I mentally pulled out of our marriage several years ago, that’s exactly what I resigned myself to. I’ve always believed divorce was only a last-ditch option, especially with kids, and I figured that I would just live out the rest of my life in an unfulfulling marriage and try to find happiness on my own. But a few months ago, things got really crazy. I met a woman online and developed a friendship with her. It was unintentional, and I realize now that I was susceptible to that because of unfulfilled needs in my marriage. We’ve never met in person, but we HAVE formed a relationship in which I feel much more connected than I do with my wife. If I had known then what I’ve learned since in counseling, I would never (or at last I HOPE I would never) have started up an online relationship. But I did, and now I’m paying the price. What the online relationship showed me is that I’m not happy living in this state of invisible divorce. I told my wife about the woman I met online, and she’s obviously not happy about it, but she understands why it happened. We’re both of the mindset that we either have to fix our marriage and get it back on track, or separate; we don’t want to continue living like we’ve been the past 10-15 years. We don’t want to be like the couples you see at restaurants sitting there eating quietly, not talking with each other; we want a vibrant relationship. Even though the online emotional affair happened and has caused my wife and I a lot of pain to get over, we both realize that it has had a good effect in that it’s forcing us to address problems in our marriage. The big problem for me is, as I stated above, since I mentally pulled out of the marriage several years ago, I don’t know how to get a feeling of commitment back. It’s like I WANT to be committed to working on the marriage, but I’m not. Everything we try seems so hard, and we’re both getting weary of expending so much emotional effort working on things. The woman I met online is still on my mind. I sometimes fantasize about a relationship with her, but in reality, I know that the chances of that are like winning the lottery -- it's not really going to happen. But she represents the promise of a more satisfying relationship, and I think about that a lot. The chemistry I haVE with her is something I crave. In terms of depth of communication and freedom of expression, it's better than what my wife and I initially had when we first met, and it's definitely better than what we have now. I wonder if it’s possible for my wife and I to develop that kind of chemistry. Is it something inherent in the way two people connect -- a soul-mate kind of thing -- or is it something that you can learn? My wife feels that we’ll probably never be soul-mates, and in fact she has a male friend that she communicates with more easily than with me. Is it ok to stay married like that? Something inside me says that we’d be happier if we were married to people that we could really connect with. To think of ending a marriage of over 25 years is almost unthinkable. How could I think that? Yet that IS what I’m thinking and it drives me crazy sometimes. Our counselor said we should give it at least 6 months to see if things get better. We’ve been to counseling for about 2 months. Communication is definitely better between us, but the feeling of commitment, the desire to build a life together, the desire to spend time with her, it’s not there. How do I get the commitment back? How do I get the desire back? I want to, but I don’t know how? I feel like I’m sort of going through the motions in working on our marriage; we’re going to counseling, we’re reading lots of books on relationships, we have long conversations about our relationship, but I don’t feel very committed. I think if we end up getting divorced, I’ll regret that I didn’t try as hard as I could have. How can I regain a sense of commitment so that I’ll feel like I really am trying to work things out?
Ronni_W Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 Or, you actually ARE trying as hard as you can...it's just not too much cos your heart isn't in it? But it's STILL all that you have to give it, at the moment? If you truly feel you have something more to give than you've been giving, then just start giving it. Otherwise, graciously admit that you have hit your personal limit about this, and start considering all the other possible next steps. Sometimes we beat-up on ourselves over the wrong thing(s) . I don't think we can really "force" feelings of commitment and desire...we can just pretend them back in 'existence' for some extra period of time. Personally, I don't find that too rewarding or productive in the long-term. And I think guilt is a crummy reason to stay in any unhappy situation. It's a huge emotional issue to get around, but it's not a reason to continue in an unfulfilling, uninspiring, happiness-depleting relationship. I mean, great. Guilt about leaving the kids, guilt about leaving the wife, guilt about wanting to leave, guilt about not working hard "enough" (however you are measuring that.) Guilt about not doing enough to fulfill your own grand visions and dreams for your own wonderful, fulfilled and happy life(?) Egads! What are you leaving yourself to look forward to in your old age? I'd be trying to work on it from that angle, if I couldn't see a happy way out of the current conditions.
Author RobertLS Posted August 5, 2008 Author Posted August 5, 2008 Cool! My first post, and a reply so quickly! Thanks!!! You're right about everything, really. When my wife has complained about my lack of commitment, our counselor has said that there's always going to be a perceived difference in commitment between the two partnes, and that my commitment is what it is and we'll have to work with that. It's part of being on the fence that's making it hard for me to be more committed. And you're right on with the feelings of guilt. My parents divorced after 20 years of marriage, and it really affected me .... 3-4 years of drugs, alcohol abuse, depression, ... it was awful. If I knew that would happen to either of my kids, I would just suck it up and stay put, even if my wife and I never got things any better than they are now. Then again, our kids seeing us in an unhappy marriage can't be good for them either. Without knowing the future, it's tough to wrestle with these thoughts. Thanks for your thoughts. I am still willing to give it some time and see if things don't change. There's too much invested in this relationship to not give it more time. I just wanted to see if anyone's been through this kind of situation before and how they worked it out.
2sunny Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 in order for things to change for the better you need to be willing to approach your relationship from the opposite of what you've been doing that hasn't worked so far. whatever you've been doing obviously hasn't worked. do the opposite and see if it gives you a different result.
imagine Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 Both you and your good lady are being short changed. What is needed is a paradigm shift. This would amount to that advice which was forthcoming from your MC. Judging from the many posts on these community boards, the quality of an MC's advice appear to be extremely variable. Go get a second opinion by reading Dr Harley's precepts on the marriage builder site. Come and chat here after you have read these. This will save you a LOT of time!
Author RobertLS Posted August 5, 2008 Author Posted August 5, 2008 Interesting you mention "paradigm shift." That exactly what our counselor said in our last session. She said that she expects a paradigm shift to occur with us soon. My wife and I have read numerous books lately, including Harley's "His Needs, Her Needs." Our counselor recommends him very highly but didn't mention the marriage builder website. Thanks for the referral -- I'll check it out. BTW, I didn't mention it earlier, but our counselor is very pro-marriage, especially in the case of children. She thinks far too many couples give up without trying. We ARE trying, but it seems like we've spent a lot of energy with not much to show for it.
Ronni_W Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 I am still willing to give it some time and see if things don't change. Well...my sig refers to something about "things" changing...something about they don't just change themselves . The truth is, I think no matter what choice we make, we may always have a certain level of doubt about the choice we did NOT make. Perhaps part of the 'human condition'. In the year prior to my actual decision to separate, I had the most serious doubts, confusion, questions and guilt. And two years later...all the same, except to a lesser degree. And I guess there will always be a question about that "next" counselor who would have been able to get us back on track, but who we never got to. As far as our impact on others -- adults and children -- it's becoming a much bigger part of my philosophy that it is rather arrogant to think that I am empowered to really affect anyone else's Soul Purpose and Life Lessons. I think if one of your kids has drugs and alcoholism in his future...it could as easily come from a classmate's untimely death by accident or suicide. I know parents want to believe that they can protect their offspring from such "ugly" realities and "negative" experiences. I just don't think parents actually have much power over that. Just food for thought. I admire your desire to make sure, as far as you can, that you will make the best-informed, most reasonable, wisest decision...whenever you do make it. Just that, sometimes, for any given decision, we already do have everything we need to be able to do that. And we just are afraid to admit it, so we pretend, or tell ourselves, that some "better" data (or an improved condition) is just around the corner. Which is also fine...as long as we don't lose too far sight of what we are doing . When you know, you will know.
Ladyjane14 Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 I'm not sure what to say to you. I don't know you and I don't know your wife. You could be in a situation in which there really isn't any love left... or you could be in a fog of idealized notions of what romantic love ought to be. But, I thought I'd share a post with you from a guy who has lost his mate in the most permanent way and see if it offers you some perspective: Hi LB, I know it's been months since my last post but all has not been well and, to be blunt, I didn't want to post anything that would infringe on your own battles. I lost my wife two months ago to secondary cancer. As I mentioned, her breast cancer had appeared suddenly and without any warning....one year clean, next year there and had spread into her lymph nodes. Normally, aggressive treatments can slow down/stop cancer growth anywhere in the body. That's why systemic treatments like chemo are so stamina-sapping....they attack the whole body. In her case, the cancer had managed to get into her brain. It wasn't there when we started this treatment almost 2 years ago to date. A full spectrum of MRI's failed to show us anything. But it was there...and it took her life. I've been grieving hard for the past two months....but we will go on. I can't say how, but we do. My children miss their mother and I miss my soulmate...."miss" doesn't even begin to describe the longings I have for her. But she's gone and I know she'd want me to continue to fight for a better life for our children even in her absence...perhaps especially because of her absence. I hesitated posting at all as bad news isn't what you or anyone else needs. But I wanted you to know that even though our particular story doesn't have a happy ending, there are many that do. And for anyone who is touched by cancer to understand that I truly know the pain and fear you face and that the reality, as harsh as it is, can still bring learnings and wisdom to your life that you wouldn't perceive otherwise. The single biggest lesson I've learned thru this is simple....unconditionally love the one you are with like every day is the last time you'll see them again. Because it very well may be. And once they are gone you only want your memories filled with the warmth that their spirit shared with yours....you don't want those memories sullied by arguments over the bills, absolutely childish and retarded relationship issues and the assorted crapola that we often see posted here as "meaningful" discourses. Because it all just won't matter once they are gone other than as regrets and wasted time. While my wife and I have (I still can't get used to saying anything about us in the past tense) our fair share of life problems, I can honestly say that my memories of her are filled with love and longing only. Regrets....we dealt with those before it was too late. Best wishes for continued recovery LB.....I'm happy to see how you've shaped a challenge in your life into something of value for yourself and others. Your Friend, DazedandConfused66 http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t129880/42 I've emboldened some of the print. I think Dazed reminds us that love is an action, a choice. It requires our effort and attention. Most of all, he gives us "the big picture", reminding us that earthly life is finite and that we don't get a 'do-over' at the end of the game. Our choices count TODAY... because today is all we've got. Think long and hard. The only thing I can tell you for sure is that the "connections" you believe you have with these other women are without real merit. These "friendships" have never stood the test of daily life. They are your own the inventions.
Author RobertLS Posted August 5, 2008 Author Posted August 5, 2008 Thanks for more of your thoughts.... Ronni, I appreciate the having doubts about the choice not made. I'm sure that's very true no matter which choice you make. And Ladyjane, I appreciate your story and advice. Interestingly, I'm affiliated with a cancer fundraising group, and I have contact with a lot of cancer victims AND survivors. Lots of very motivating stories. My sister lost her husband and feels the same the guy in your quoted story feels about petty relationship issues in light of the grand scheme of things. I also agree with you about the quoted "friendships". They're idealistic. But what they've done is woken my wife and I up to the fact that the marriage we currently have is not what we what. We have to fix it or move on. We only get one chance in life, and staying in a parallel marriage is not what either of us want. It's true that love is an action, not a feeling. Why am I not more motivated to act? Am I just lazy? Is this all my fault that I'm not more committed? Will I eventually "come around" and feel more of a commitment? I don't know, but these are the thoughts I struggle with a lot. I'm thankful my wife is being patient with me. Honestly, if the situation were reversed, and she was the one who didn't feel a commitment, I don't know that I'd have the same patience. It sometimes makes me feel that she deserves better. She has said that she's sure there's a love for her buried somewhere inside of me. Maybe she's right, but again, I don't know. I will take your advice to think long and hard. I don't think any major decision will happen before the end of the year. I'm just searching for thoughts and opinions that'll help me figure out my own thoughts. Thanks again for the input. Oh, and to "imagine," thanks for the Marriage Builders website. There's a lot of stuff I printed out and will read. Looks really good.
Elena62 Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 My wife feels that we’ll probably never be soul-mates, and in fact she has a male friend that she communicates with more easily than with me. Is it ok to stay married like that? Something inside me says that we’d be happier if we were married to people that we could really connect with. To think of ending a marriage of over 25 years is almost unthinkable. How could I think that? Yet that IS what I’m thinking and it drives me crazy sometimes. Our counselor said we should give it at least 6 months to see if things get better. We’ve been to counseling for about 2 months. Communication is definitely better between us, but the feeling of commitment, the desire to build a life together, the desire to spend time with her, it’s not there. How do I get the commitment back? How do I get the desire back? I want to, but I don’t know how? I feel like I’m sort of going through the motions in working on our marriage; we’re going to counseling, we’re reading lots of books on relationships, we have long conversations about our relationship, but I don’t feel very committed. I think if we end up getting divorced, I’ll regret that I didn’t try as hard as I could have. How can I regain a sense of commitment so that I’ll feel like I really am trying to work things out? You can't make yourself want these things in an instant. What has really disturbed me about your post is what your wife said: Your wife feels you'll probably never be soulmates. Thats what my H said to me years ago. "We are not soul mates and probably never will be." You are both emotionally engaged with others. To make a success of your marriage you have to eliminate outside negative influences - totally! That takes work first. I wouldn't give it six months I would give it a year. Both of you need to get rid of external influences - then the issue of being soul mates can be addressed. A sense of real union in a marriage is important. Otherwise, it's doomed to failure. I only know because I've been there.
Mr. Lucky Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 or you could be in a fog of idealized notions of what romantic love ought to be. Ladyjane, I think you're on to something... Robert, is it possible that your marital crisis is more about you that it is about your relationship? If you're been married 25 years, you're probably late 40's or early 50's. And simply put, that is an age where, with our own mortality firmly in mind, it's natural to wonder what we've accomplished in life. Could it be that you're doubts about your marriage are part of the tough questions that we all ask ourselves at that point? I wonder if you're accentuating the negative rather than the very real positives of 25 years and two kids... Mr. Lucky
luna3 Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 soulmates...one has to choose to be the other's soulmate. i personally doubt that it's about some cosmically aligned pattern on the day you were born, or that it magically happens like a miracle, although i guess it seems to for some people. perhaps they are just lucky, like some folks (whoever they are--anyone know these people?) actually win the lottery. long ago, i determined that i could be a soul mate to anyone as long as i chose that person, and they chose me--exclusively, honestly, and without too much hesitation. guess that is your dilemma, really. do you choose your wife, even though you both know each other's flaws and patterns, or the unknown. you know those unknowns have flaws and patterns too, right? wish i had answers for ya, but this is the struggle that maturity brings i do believe.
datingmum Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 "Fake it till you make it!" In all seriousness, I am on this board because of my current relationship, but my first marriage qualifies me to give you the benefit of this advice in hindsite. I am happy to hear that you can both communicate what is happening with you clearly. That is of utmost importance and gives me much hope that you can make it down this path with your marriage intact. If you both have been disconnected for so long, initiating intimacy - emotionally or physically, playfulness, shared goals and fun etc WILL FEEL LIKE WORK. They will feel ackward and strange at first. But this will ease. Try this: go back in your mind to when you were 'in love'. Think of the things that made her laugh, feel special, etc. Try to do something for her, something spontaneous and romantic, that will remind her of those times as well. See what happens. It's an experiment. You've already stated you're committed to sticking it out for a while until you are clear. This can only help. Hopefully, what you will find is that this magical feeling of being 'in love' again wil blossom from shared efforts at coming together again. But one of you has to reach out first to get the ball rolling - and not in the counselling, serious context alone. Part of the feeling of love comes from knowing that your special someone is interested in you, your feelings, your interests, your hobbies, your achievements. If you two have not been involved in one another's lives properly, you WILL feel disconnected and ackward. Is there something you can do to put yourself BACK in her life, something you can do together - start a new project on the house or go on a european holiday or anything that will re-invigorate that feeling of togetherness? Make this happen before you make any decisions, please. Make every effort to put yourself in these uncomfortable places so that you can reap the benefits of becoming vulnerable to your wife again. Open up to her, even if you think it's doomed. You sound so dedicated, committed and together. Seriously, it seems to me that you've hit a normal and natural wall in a marriage of 25 years. You are now trying to make a decision based on your feelings - which as you know, are not really that reliable - in your CURRENT place in your marriage. You need to be making these decisions when you've actually put it all on the line. Go easy, give this plan a few months. Keep giving, with no expectation of return, to see where it puts you. That is thinking with your head. 25 years is a long long time and I imagine that you'll look back on this in a few years and think "thank god that happened, it brought us back together, what was I thinking when I considered leaving!" I've seen it happen. My parents are a great example. Good luck and do keep us posted
Author RobertLS Posted August 6, 2008 Author Posted August 6, 2008 Thanks everyone for your input. I just found this website yesterday, and I didn't know what to expect. I'm surprised that as many people as did took the time to read my story and respond with helpful thoughts. If nothing else, the fact that people out there care makes me feel good! My wife and I had a great talk last night into the wee hours of the morning, and then again about an hour this morning. She pointed out, and this echoes something that Ronni said earlier, that I AM trying. The fact that I'm going through counseling, reading relationship books, talking with her about my feelings, posting to this website ..... that IS trying. I think part of my anxiety is due to lack of patience. I need to be patient and not worry about the future. Sometimes I worry that we'll expend a lot of effort trying to re-establish our marriage only to see things not work out, and that the effort will be wasted. But that's negative thinking. And also, our marriage DESERVES spending energy on; we'd regret it later if things didn't work out and we didn't make an honest effort. I know all these things, but sometimes they get lost in the whirlwind of thoughts and emotions. Elena, I'm interested in your thoughts about eliminating outside influences. Our counselor has said the same thing. For example, I had a nice friendship with a woman at work who recently retired. She was very appoachable, easy to talk with, and I enjoyed the openness that I had with her. In 7-8 years of knowing her, there was nothing physical between us, but my wife never completely trusted that there wouldn't be. Once my friend retired, we kept in touch about once a week via email. Once my wife and I got into counseling, our counselor said that if my wife is not comfortable with it, I should stop. I felt that if the counselor said that, then I should at least consider it, and I did stop the emails, but I miss the friendship I had. I find that it causes resentment because I feel that my wife has killed a friendship I had that I really enjoyed. Even though it might be best for me to channel my feelings of friendship towards my wife, it's hard when there's resentment there. Why can't I have friends of the opposite sex outside the marriage? I can see the danger is that the friendship might develop into something deeper, but there has to be a way to have friends doesn't there? Maybe your suggestion is only a temporary one -- that until we get things back on track, we should eliminate outside influences. Is that right? I can see that point. Mr. Lucky, you might be right. My wife has suggested the same mid-life crisis thing too. It's possible, but it's hard for me to think objectively about that. It's possible, but I don't know and I don't know HOW to know. Luna, I agree that there's a soulmate myth. Maybe I should use the term "chemistry" instead of "soulmate." Yes, you could choose to be anyone's soulmate, but you'd have an easier time of it with a person you had better chemistry with. I think there is something inherent about two people's core personalities that give them either a lot of chemisty, or not a lot, or somewhere in between. If you choose to be someone's soulmate where there's not a lot of chemistry, sure you can do it, but it'll take more effort. I also think chemistry between people can change over time. My wife and I are a perfect example. We had better chemistry earlier in our marriage because we liked doing similar things. But our interests have grown apart, we like different things now, and as a result, we don't spend much time together. That's not good. Should I try do the things she likes just to spend more time her even though I don't enjoy them? Should she try the same? Should I give up things I like that she doesn't? Should she? Is that really going to make us happier? Hard to tell. Maybe we should, as datingmum says, fake it till we make it. Our counselor has said the same thing -- even if I don't FEEL like doing something to please my wife, just do it anyways, and after a while, I WILL feel like it. I've heard that advice other places too. I try that, but the fakeness part of it is hard. I feel hypocritical. I've also read in another place that if I try to fake it, my wife will sense that I'm not being genuine, and my actions could even backfire. Conflicting advice, ..... adds to the confusion. And your thoughts about 25 years, .... I sometimes think about that number, 25 years, and wonder how I could be thinking about tossing all that aside? But then again, my wife and I are working through a life planning exercise and according to life expectancy, we both have another 40 years to live. Do we want to live the next 40 years like we've been living the last 10-15? Absolutely not. But 25 years is a long time, and that's why we're examining ourselves to see how able and willing we are to make things work to our satisfaction. One more aspect of the "25 years" thing is that a lot of people around us think it's an accomplishment to have stayed married that long. We almost feel pressure to stay together just to not disappoint others. I know that sounds kind of crazy, but really, our friends, family, parents, kids too, would be very disappointed if we decided to split. It's almost as if there are a lot people rooting for us and we don't want to let them down. I don't like the fact that that kind of perceived pressure exists, but it does.
TrustInYourself Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 You have to look past resentment with female friends. Your wife just wants to know you value how she feels. She wants reassurance. She doesn't want to break up your friendships. Once you get past that resentment, you can better meet her need of reassurance and affirmation of your love. Also, your actions and reactions are validating her feelings. Stop and examine how your interactions and reactions are contributing to this situation. Everything you do and how you react plays a part.
TrustInYourself Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 As far as faking it, yeah do it. Why? Because you are ignoring your own selfishness and putting your wife first. If she asks if you are faking it, you aren't. What does this lead to? You actually loving her without her having to do anything. Right now you want your loving actions to be validated by your wife. She's waiting for the same thing. Mexican standoff with your emotions. 20 years of that and you forget why you got married. Do what it takes to work on the marriage or throw it out. You are doing one or the other, through inaction or action. Sit on your laurels and you are trashing your wife and your marriage. Funny? Yeah I did it too. I trashed my marriage by inaction and lack of empathy. It was easy to just ignore the situation and just do what I wanted. At some point you have to do what you don't want to do, so that at a later date you can realize, "Hey, that was worth it. That was soooo worth it." Otherwise, you're going to be divorced saying, "Dude, what happened?" Your call. As far as validating your marriage through years. Quantifying. Screw all that. Ignore that. Work on your marriage for you and your wife. Don't leave it until you really have nothing, absolutely nothing to give. Then you can walk away smiling knowing you gave it everything. Good luck and best wishes.
quankanne Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 DH and I did a marriage encounter weekend through my church nearly 10 years ago, and I truly believe it has made all the difference in our relationship because it helped us focus on *us* ... by helping us sift through all the the crap floating around to get to the nugget of our marriage by asking "what was it about this person that made you say, "He's the one"? A bit simplistic, but it helped me realize that every day I say "yes" to the marriage is because I still believe now what I believed when I first met him: That he's a good man I could trust my heart with. Mind you, we've had our ups and downs, but thanks to M.E., we both realize that our love and trust for & in each other is solid bedrock. That some days, I might want to snatch him bald, but that doesn't touch the love. reading your posts, I kind of wonder if this isn't what you and your wife are going through ("married singles" is the term the ME team used) ... you know, the garbage of everyday life has cluttered your relationship that you can't easily see the bedrock or foundation of the marriage. I know how life events can change your perception of love and affection you have for your mate, but we all need to remember that those feelings are just a mutation (if you will) of the feelings you have for her/him at that blip of time, influenced by those events. meaning, from the sound of it, you care very deeply from your wife and your willingness says that you love her more than you may realize, so there's great hope that you can bring your marriage alive. Maybe it's time to actually plan a little time alone with her if you can get away, and just focus on the two of you. Marriage encounter is a fantastic way of doing that, but from what I've heard about marriage builders, y'all could just print out the materials and take them with you on a lost weekend ... just be sure to focus on building communication with each other, and not get so involved in outside events that you forget your mission!
Ronni_W Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 -- even if I don't FEEL like doing something to please my wife, just do it anyways, ... I try that, but the fakeness part of it is hard. I feel hypocritical. That is so excellent that you've recognized how MUCH you are trying!!! Success is self-motivating, and now you've caught that buzz of your MANY successes...the SKY isn't even a limit You can turn it around to where it is not hypocritical, and can even be a positive experience -- just be honest with your wife, at those times. You will be reminding yourself that "this is me, trying", and your wife will be able to appreciate that "this is him, trying"...and even your counselor will feel good about all of it, I suspect. Maybe tell your wife in advance, that you'd like to be able to express when you are "moving out of your comfort zone" (perhaps better than saying "well, I'm about to fake it"?) Even better, get her input on how she'd prefer to hear it. It sounds like you both are well past the stage of having to "stuff" feelings of discomfort and worry, and "suffer" all by your lonesomes. Partner and collaborate...be each other's cheerleaders. But you need to, er, commit to either just being more honest, or learning how to be comfortable being more honest, if that's what's needed. All the best of everything to you both. And keep up your good works and efforts!!! EDIT TO ADD: Oh yes...for Goodness' Sake...do start having some patience with yourself. You are progressing in marvelous ways. You can chart it right here through your own posts.
Elena62 Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Elena, I'm interested in your thoughts about eliminating outside influences. Our counselor has said the same thing. For example, I had a nice friendship with a woman at work who recently retired. She was very appoachable, easy to talk with, and I enjoyed the openness that I had with her. In 7-8 years of knowing her, there was nothing physical between us, but my wife never completely trusted that there wouldn't be. Once my friend retired, we kept in touch about once a week via email. Once my wife and I got into counseling, our counselor said that if my wife is not comfortable with it, I should stop. I felt that if the counselor said that, then I should at least consider it, and I did stop the emails, but I miss the friendship I had. I find that it causes resentment because I feel that my wife has killed a friendship I had that I really enjoyed. Even though it might be best for me to channel my feelings of friendship towards my wife, it's hard when there's resentment there. Why can't I have friends of the opposite sex outside the marriage? I can see the danger is that the friendship might develop into something deeper, but there has to be a way to have friends doesn't there? Maybe your suggestion is only a temporary one -- that until we get things back on track, we should eliminate outside influences. Is that right? I can see that point. This one is really difficult! I think your wife probably feel threatened by your friendship with this woman. This is probably due to the fact that your marriage is in a rocky state. Your counsellor is right, in order to progress you must create a trusting environment with your wife. If that means getting rid of a friend then it should be a top priority for you to make your wife feel comfortable and do that. However, there is a big BUT here. We should all, in marriages, be able to have friends externally that doesn't influence the marriage at all and that we are able to share with our marriage partner. In reality that's not always the case. The issue lies with trust! My exH made the mistake of telling his "friend" that he was ending his friendship with her due to my "telling" him to do so! That didn't sit easy with me. That gave me the message that he had ended it with his "friend" because he was obliged - I've never forgotten that. It was a clear indication to me of the type of man he was/is. You could very well go back to a friendship with this woman after you resolve your issues within your marriage. But really, will this help your marriage in the long run? I loved my H very much, and I gave up many friendships for him that didn't sit comfortably with him both with males and females. It was easy for me to do it. I just did it and never looked back for the sake of my H and my marriage. I understand you would miss the friendship - perhaps you should ask yourself if the friendship element of your marriage needs to be worked on? Your wife has a friend too? Perhaps you can both come to a reasonable compromise on this? Hope this helps!
datingmum Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Hi there, Firstly, let me say that you sound like you're really doing great right now. The talks with your wife, the feeling that you're 'in it together' will do alot of the 'work' for you. I want to clarify what I meant by 'fake it till you make it'. I certainly don't mean writing long sonnets dripping with disengenuous praise. I simply mean, force yourself out of your comfort zone of 'this is the way it always has been, so this is the way it will be forever' (for instance: around the personal activities issues - she does her own thing, you do yours) in order to put yourselves into new situations which will kickstart your heart again. Don't think you have to lose or drop anything, simply find something brand new that you BOTH can get into on equal footing. It can be something so simple as starting to watch art films, reading together, you don't necessarily need to be skydiving here! Just make a conscious effort to chat with her about this and both decide to come to the table with a little list of activities you might be interested in doing as a team, then choose from those. Bring her a cup of coffee in the morning, even if you feel tired and grumpy. Allow it to be a two way thing. Ask her to do the little things that she'll love doing for you because she's your wife. Bring her a pretty flower you picked out of someone's garden just because it made you think of her - bittersweet thoughts or not. Make a little tracklist of 'your' songs together for her on an ipod shuffle. Often, music can communicate volumes in ways that our words cannot. What I'm saying is, make the effort to do these small things, even if they feel ackward or tinged with sadness, because that is real life, real love! It is so much a verb! And you cleary know this because you exemplify it in your caring posts. I'm simply trying to get you out of the head space where all you two are doing is talking/talking/talking. I'm encouraging you to get into the world with some of these practices that you two are talking about and see what happens. I truly believe you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Author RobertLS Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 Thanks for the encouraging words. That's pretty much what our counselor has suggested. It's hard to know if I'm just plain lazy, or if it's because my heart's not into it, but I have hard time going through the motions even though I don't feel like it. I will keep trying though. I showed this thread to my wife last night and she was very interested. She even wondered if she could post here to give her side of the story. I thought that would be pretty cool, but does that ever happen? There's always two sides to every story, and it might be interesting to hear what people have to say after hearing her side.
Ronni_W Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 She even wondered if she could post here to give her side of the story. If you two are okay with that and up for whatever may be revealed, then SURE! I think it is a great idea. Whether or not it's been done before...you'll either be pioneers or followers . (She may want to get her own 'account' so as not to confuse the heck outta the rest of us but...one username would help you (both) accomplish your goals, in any event.) I do know once instance where they started posting unbeknownst to each other, but one or the other recognized that is was his/her partner's story being posted in the "other" thread, so to speak. I do not recall specifics but feel that it can be a good way to gain the opposite perspective...and see how others perceive the partner's views, and find out what suggestions are offered in response. Looking forward to hearing from your wife!
81West Posted August 9, 2008 Posted August 9, 2008 Hi RLS...welcome to LoveShack. I've never been in your specific situation, but always have enormous empathy for those who find themselves there. It must be extraordinarily difficult and immensely confusing. You are waiting for you feelings to change, and you might be waiting an awfully long time if the last two months are any indication. What about stealing an approach from tried and true behaviour therapy principles? In models proven over and over again it has been shown that first our behaviour changes, then our thoughts, and only then do our feelings follow. What if you and your wife agreed to simply act like you were head over heels in love? Do all the things, big and little, that committed and loving couples do, every day. If nothing else, it might make you guys giggle. Anyway, it truly is a proven and widely respected change strategy. Perhaps you might consider it as a supplementary approach along with everything else you're doing. I like it because it's clear, relatively simple, and task oriented - three things that can be a great relief from endless and often circular discussion and ruminating. Good luck to both of you.
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