stoopid_guy Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Just trying to make a point that I didn't intend for it to happen. That's all. And an excellent way to put it, very creative.
jj2007 Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Yep, it just occured to me that this is always the case, no matter whether we talk about physical or emotional infidelity. You know how people always say that if you fell in love with someone better, the honest thing is to break up with your current partner first, and then pursue the new relationship. But, in reality this NEVER happens, simply because in order to fall in love (or simply to desire) someone, you need to interact with him/her. And the second you realise that you may have such feelings and yet continue to interact with him you've committed infidelity. Therefore, it all boils down to the CHOICE to pursue or not such interactions. The reason I was always been able to stay faithful to my girlfriend was not the lack of temptation, but simply that I've always dismissed any interactions with women that coul lead "somewhere". And if I ever run in a woman who is attractive and made me feel "differently", I'd easily recognize that and therefore limit my interacitons with her. Just consistently doing that would get me through a 100 years of relaitonship/marriage (well, if my girlfriend did the same, that is...) How hard is it to do that, for crying out loud? I understand that many people may have issues that prevent them from seeing the interactions this way, but this is still not an excuse... All I'm saying is that infidelity is a 100% choice, be it conscious or unconsious, there are no external circumstances to blame... I agree 100%! Great post! It really is that simple!
jj2007 Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 You can CHOOSE who you fall in love with. You may find yourself ATTRACTED to someone you meet. Heck...it happens to me occasionally, just like it does to ANYONE/EVERYONE. But you can CHOOSE to act on that attraction, or not. You can feed it, or you can avoid the situation and the person you're attracted to in order to prevent those feelings from escalating. If you CHOOSE to feed those feelings, if you choose to continue to have any kind of relationship with this person you're attracted to, you run the risk of those feelings escalating into love. As you spend time with this person, and your feelings for them increase (for whatever reason), you still have the CHOICE in how you respond and react to them. You can take actions to end the relationship before the "love" hits. You can choose to end the relationship before you 'cross the line'. Physically OR emotionally. There's ALWAYS a point where you recognize that you're doing something that's 'crossing a line'. Hiding the IM/text that OM/OW just sent you from your spouse...deliberately putting their number under someone else's name in your contact list so that your spouse doesn't see it...etc... A clear trust that you've violated. A clear indication that you've "crossed the line". What you decide to do when you recognize that you're near or at that line...is a CHOICE. What actions you take as those feelings start at the beginning or grow over time...those are each individual CHOICES that you make. No...I do NOT buy into the 'love at first sight' malarky. I fully believe that people can be ATTRACTED to one another from the beginning...but it takes communication of a personal/emotional level to let those feelings grow into 'love'. And that requires you to CHOOSE to allow things to escalate and grow. This isn't all that complicated to understand. I totally agree with this! Very true!
Owl Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Mickey...was it a one time shot, was there any emotional connection at all? When it "just happened"...did you not recognize you were crossing a line? I'm sorry, but unless you just happened to fall on his man parts...I don't see how it "just happened". You made a CHOICE to remove clothing and do the deed. Yes?
Author movingonandon Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 OWL, This is so spot on you scare me. You should write your own book about infidelity. I recall THE EXACT DAY I CHOSE to open my heart to the OM...the day I DECIDED to stop fighting against the attraction and go with it instead. If I may, though, add a little personal insight into what went into this very conscious decision. No thought regarding my marriage or my husband went into the decision. There was no weighing of consequences, no concern about risk, no actual prioritizing of what I wanted more or who was more important. There was no comparison thinking. There was no thinking about the future or other family members. There was NO THINKING. The only thing I recall vividly when this decision was made was how awful I felt about myself at the time. My self esteem was at an all-time low and I felt lost and confused about my life in general. My husband and I had been having problems. We were both hurting. We both grew critical of each other. I didn't feel I could do anything right in his eyes and just the day before he had told me to "Go get a life. You disgust me." I grew so tired of fighting and feeling so bad about myself that I decided to put up a wall of indifference between us so that I would no longer feel the pain. I told myself I didn't care anymore. I gave up on "us" that day. The very next day I decided to stop fighting my feelings for the OM. The OM and I were both in very vulnerable positions. We both had very low self-esteem. We fed off of each other. Whenever his ex-wife or the boss made him feel like crap, he ran to me. Whenever my husband made me feel like crap, I ran to him. We gravitated to each other as we tried to hang on to some semblence of our self-esteem. I recall feeling like a moth being drawn into the light. I had a husband at home telling me I was disgusting and couldn't do anything right. I had an OM at work telling me I was an angel and how happy I made him feel. People gravitate to others who make them feel good and shy away from those who don't. Having low self-esteem and reaching out to a person to "fix" it for you does not justify an affair BUT is does offer some explanation as to why I, and perhaps, some others, chose this misguided path. I think people who have affairs say "it just happens"...because they don't give any mental consideration to the consequences of their actions before they act. Mental thought is turned off and emotions are running high on auto-pilot. Emotions control their actions, not their minds. When they finally wake up to the reality of the situation, they wonder, "How did I get here? How did this happen?" Somehow this is one of the saddest things I've read lately, but mostly perhaps because it might resemble what went through my ex-girlfirend's head. I've never told her that she "disgusts" me, but I'm pretty sure that she has felt an enormous pressure from me to get her life together, at a point she may have felt particularly insecure. Ironically, the only reason I've exerted this kind of pressure was just because i really wanted for our LDR to be finally over and so we could be again together. So, I understand the mindset, but this would not make me forgive because the whole reasoning "I did it because my partner wronged me in such and such a way" is twisted, simply because how do you decide what level of wrongdoing justifies a betrayal? ANd if you are comfortable thinking that way, you will always find a reason. I'm sure there are lowlifes out there that've cheated on their partners simply because they were unhappy with the amount of housework their partner did... I also felt upset with my girlfriend being such a mess, her lack of aparent effort to finish what she needs to finish so we can be together, her family problems etc., but none of that made me contemplate finding "understanding" elsewhere. So, I can empathise with your issues, but none of that makes what you did any more acceptable.
taylor Posted August 8, 2008 Posted August 8, 2008 Somehow this is one of the saddest things I've read lately, but mostly perhaps because it might resemble what went through my ex-girlfirend's head. I've never told her that she "disgusts" me, but I'm pretty sure that she has felt an enormous pressure from me to get her life together, at a point she may have felt particularly insecure. Ironically, the only reason I've exerted this kind of pressure was just because i really wanted for our LDR to be finally over and so we could be again together. So, I understand the mindset, but this would not make me forgive because the whole reasoning "I did it because my partner wronged me in such and such a way" is twisted, simply because how do you decide what level of wrongdoing justifies a betrayal? ANd if you are comfortable thinking that way, you will always find a reason. I'm sure there are lowlifes out there that've cheated on their partners simply because they were unhappy with the amount of housework their partner did... I also felt upset with my girlfriend being such a mess, her lack of aparent effort to finish what she needs to finish so we can be together, her family problems etc., but none of that made me contemplate finding "understanding" elsewhere. So, I can empathise with your issues, but none of that makes what you did any more acceptable. Hi Movingonandon, Just read thru some of your posts to find out your story. Sounds like your girlfriend had/has low self-esteem..perhaps thought you were too good for her..at least in her mind. You sound like a pretty confident person..comfortable in your own skin. She apparently isn't. The long distance relationship may have added to her insecurities, do you think? Sounds to me like she opted for a new guy who she doesn't feel is "above" her. Therefore, no need to feel insecure about. Your girlfriend's insecurities are not your fault by any means. Her insecurities lie within herself. And like my A, your girlfriend's affair was by no means justifiable or acceptable. The point I was trying to make in my post was that at a moment in time when I was feeling particularly bad about myself and extremely unhappy about my life, I made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to reach out to another man who was both willing and able to make me feel better about myself and put a smile back on my face. This decision came on the heels of another decision...the decision to give up on my marriage. This decision was not difficult because I had already put up a wall of indifference between us as a means of protecting myself from the pain. I have been in IC for several months. I know now my affair had much more to do with personal issues within myself that caused my feelings of unhappiness and low self-esteem than anything my husband did or didn't say or do. I have a feeling the same was true for your ex-girlfriend.
Kamikaze Posted August 8, 2008 Posted August 8, 2008 I don't think that most folks wake up in the morning and say to themselves - "today is the day I am going to have an affair." I do believe we all have choices and can get involved or back away. With that said, I also believe that if important needs are not being met - whether a person is married or not - and someone else begins to meet those needs - in whatever way - there are those folks (and I was one) who are drawn like a moth to a flame. Kami
Author movingonandon Posted August 8, 2008 Author Posted August 8, 2008 OWL, This is so spot on you scare me. You should write your own book about infidelity. I recall THE EXACT DAY I CHOSE to open my heart to the OM...the day I DECIDED to stop fighting against the attraction and go with it instead. If I may, though, add a little personal insight into what went into this very conscious decision. No thought regarding my marriage or my husband went into the decision. There was no weighing of consequences, no concern about risk, no actual prioritizing of what I wanted more or who was more important. There was no comparison thinking. There was no thinking about the future or other family members. There was NO THINKING. The only thing I recall vividly when this decision was made was how awful I felt about myself at the time. My self esteem was at an all-time low and I felt lost and confused about my life in general. My husband and I had been having problems. We were both hurting. We both grew critical of each other. I didn't feel I could do anything right in his eyes and just the day before he had told me to "Go get a life. You disgust me." I grew so tired of fighting and feeling so bad about myself that I decided to put up a wall of indifference between us so that I would no longer feel the pain. I told myself I didn't care anymore. I gave up on "us" that day. The very next day I decided to stop fighting my feelings for the OM. The OM and I were both in very vulnerable positions. We both had very low self-esteem. We fed off of each other. Whenever his ex-wife or the boss made him feel like crap, he ran to me. Whenever my husband made me feel like crap, I ran to him. We gravitated to each other as we tried to hang on to some semblence of our self-esteem. I recall feeling like a moth being drawn into the light. I had a husband at home telling me I was disgusting and couldn't do anything right. I had an OM at work telling me I was an angel and how happy I made him feel. People gravitate to others who make them feel good and shy away from those who don't. Having low self-esteem and reaching out to a person to "fix" it for you does not justify an affair BUT is does offer some explanation as to why I, and perhaps, some others, chose this misguided path. I think people who have affairs say "it just happens"...because they don't give any mental consideration to the consequences of their actions before they act. Mental thought is turned off and emotions are running high on auto-pilot. Emotions control their actions, not their minds. When they finally wake up to the reality of the situation, they wonder, "How did I get here? How did this happen?" Actually, please disregard my previous, admittedly judgemental, reply. the most important part of the above post is that it succinctly summarises why usually there is NO point in trying to repair anything after cheating has occured: "I told myself I didn't care anymore. I gave up on "us" that day. The very next day I decided to stop fighting my feelings for the OM." So there you have it. Sstop the pointless suffering and move on. At this point it doesn't matter who's "more" quilty. I agree that there is little value in putting too much emphasis on who is "right" - if things get worked out before an affair. After that, it's pointless.
Author movingonandon Posted August 8, 2008 Author Posted August 8, 2008 I don't think that most folks wake up in the morning and say to themselves - "today is the day I am going to have an affair." I do believe we all have choices and can get involved or back away. With that said, I also believe that if important needs are not being met - whether a person is married or not - and someone else begins to meet those needs - in whatever way - there are those folks (and I was one) who are drawn like a moth to a flame. Kami Of course, but isn't the adult thing to do is to walk to your partner and say "I feel unhappy, because such and such needs are not met? Please work with me on this because it is important for us to survive as a couple."?
Author movingonandon Posted August 8, 2008 Author Posted August 8, 2008 Hi Movingonandon, Just read thru some of your posts to find out your story. Sounds like your girlfriend had/has low self-esteem..perhaps thought you were too good for her..at least in her mind. You sound like a pretty confident person..comfortable in your own skin. She apparently isn't. The long distance relationship may have added to her insecurities, do you think? Sounds to me like she opted for a new guy who she doesn't feel is "above" her. Therefore, no need to feel insecure about. Your girlfriend's insecurities are not your fault by any means. Her insecurities lie within herself. And like my A, your girlfriend's affair was by no means justifiable or acceptable. The point I was trying to make in my post was that at a moment in time when I was feeling particularly bad about myself and extremely unhappy about my life, I made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to reach out to another man who was both willing and able to make me feel better about myself and put a smile back on my face. This decision came on the heels of another decision...the decision to give up on my marriage. This decision was not difficult because I had already put up a wall of indifference between us as a means of protecting myself from the pain. I have been in IC for several months. I know now my affair had much more to do with personal issues within myself that caused my feelings of unhappiness and low self-esteem than anything my husband did or didn't say or do. I have a feeling the same was true for your ex-girlfriend. Thank you, this was very thoughtful, and I once again apologize for coming across as judgmental (well, I am, but I'm working on it...)
Owl Posted August 8, 2008 Posted August 8, 2008 I don't think that most folks wake up in the morning and say to themselves - "today is the day I am going to have an affair." I do believe we all have choices and can get involved or back away. With that said, I also believe that if important needs are not being met - whether a person is married or not - and someone else begins to meet those needs - in whatever way - there are those folks (and I was one) who are drawn like a moth to a flame. Kami Kami, I'd agree. But I'd also like you to think about this... Most people don't wake up and say "today is the day that I'm going to have an affair". I'm POSITIVE that my wife never did any such thing. But...she DID reach a point where she'd stay in bed until the moment I left to go to work in the morning, and then rush downstairs to log into her IM program and begin chatting with OM. She made the CHOICE to avoid me and avoid letting me know that she was IM'ing with him. She did so intentionally...CHOOSING to pursue something that she knew was "over the bounds". While people don't decide "today is the day that I'll have an affair", they DO reach a point where they say "this is something I know I shouldn't be doing since I'm married..."...AND THEN PROCEED TO DO IT ANYWAY. They DO reach a point where they say "we're talking about things that my husband would be horribly hurt if he knew"...and then intentionally allow that conversationi to continue and go further because they WANTED it to. There is nearly always a point where they can look at the relationship that's forming and realize that they shouldn't be crossing that line...but then the choose to do so. Same thing with "falling in love". Its one thing to be attracted...its another thing to choose to PURSUE that attraction.
Owl Posted August 8, 2008 Posted August 8, 2008 When you realized you were attracted to your MM...and then you realized that he was attracted to you... You had the CHOICE to walk away before the affair truly started. Before you crossed that line, admitted it to each other, or went to a PA. But the CHOICE you made was a different one...you chose to allow that relationship to grow into something more, rather than ending it before it got to that point. See what I'm saying?
honour and trust Posted August 8, 2008 Posted August 8, 2008 Amen!! I completely agree. Question is how do you get people to understand it?!
Owl Posted August 8, 2008 Posted August 8, 2008 I prefer to engrave it in bold letters in the business end of a baseball bat and apply it liberally and vigorously until the application takes...but that's just me.
serial muse Posted August 8, 2008 Posted August 8, 2008 Sorry in advance for the long post. I think there’s a general inclination from the WS (and I’ve also seen it from the OP) to say that while cheating is not “justifiable,” it is mitigated by the behavior (read: neglect, cruelty, and so forth) of the BS. It plays out on these boards, in therapy, in conversations, as a kind of tit-for-tat – the BS is guilty of neglect and the MP responds by straying. The BS isn’t to blame for the cheating, per se, but is MORE guilty of neglecting the marriage - and that cruelty is, thus, implied as the underlying driving force. Huh. But as movingon suggested, quite frequently the BS has been suffering too (but does not stray). It’s not like only one person is unhappy in an unhappy marriage. It’s just that one person is choosing to act out in a very particular way. Does that make him or her a worse person? Not necessarily. But it means that the BS made a different choice – a choice that was equally open to the WS. Maybe they have different thresholds of desperation, or maybe their issues within the marriage are different enough that one wants solace from elsewhere while the other prefers to close in on him- or herself. But that doesn’t change the fact that they’re probably both hurting, lonely, feeling isolated and emotionally cut off. And so both of them are locked up in their own little worlds and not paying attention to the partner’s state of mind. The reasons why one partner does and one doesn’t cheat aren’t going to be the same across the board, of course - but I don’t think it’s generally so simple as one partner was that much crueler or colder than the other so as to drive the WS into the arms of someone else. Certainly, the BS could be evil incarnate – but it’s also entirely possible that the WS has issues with confrontation, insecurity, an inability to voice his or her needs, is passive aggressive, and so on and so forth. All of that could be true of the BS as well. In other words, both people have issues. Not just the BS. Framing the situation as a tit-for-tat is really counterproductive. Even when a partner acknowledges that it’s never okay to cheat, the fact is, s/he felt that it was at the time. Which means s/he might feel that again, depending on the circumstances. Which just isn't reassuring at all. I do understand the pain that someone like taylor felt in her marriage – her husband was horrible for saying that to her, and my heart goes out to her. No one should be told such a thing - that was truly nasty. I don’t know the full story, so I don’t know how else she reacted to him, or how big of a jerk he was in general, or really, what the environment was like overall. But I also wonder what pain of his own he might have been going through; was it something she was unable to empathize with because she was lost in her own pain? That's understandable, but it's also important. Isn't it most likely that both the BS and the WS are guilty of neglect of their marriage and care for each other - not just the BS? There are two sides to every story.
taylor Posted August 8, 2008 Posted August 8, 2008 Of course, but isn't the adult thing to do is to walk to your partner and say "I feel unhappy, because such and such needs are not met? Please work with me on this because it is important for us to survive as a couple."? It's easier said than done to approach a spouse in a mature and mannerly way to discuss issues in a marriage. Why? Because usually by the time a troubled marriage reaches affair territory there is already such a breakdown in communication that any attempt at communication is ineffective. My husband and I attended a marriage seminar focused on communication a couple months ago. All couples there were on the verge of divorce or had already filed. It was amazing to hear the stories of how little effective communication there was between the marriage partners. Some admitted never being able to communicate. Others admitted not knowing how to resolve problems together. Others admitted communication problems didn't arise until the couple felt a disconnection from each other. The point is most marriages are in trouble due to lack of communication and if there is lack of communication, there is no way to effectively address the issues. Some couples will push problems under the rug, refusing to admit they have problems. Some couples will fight like cats and dogs about the issues, but end up doing nothing but hurting each other. Some couple play the blame game where it becomes more important to determine who the bad guy is in the marriage than to figure out how to solve the problems that exist. People in good marriages have good communication skills. People in troubled marriages don't. It's unrealistic to ask partners in the throes of a troubled marriage to use "communication" when this valuable marriage tool is either broken or the couple just doesn't know how to use it.
Mickey Blue Eyes Posted August 8, 2008 Posted August 8, 2008 Mickey...was it a one time shot, was there any emotional connection at all? When it "just happened"...did you not recognize you were crossing a line? I'm sorry, but unless you just happened to fall on his man parts...I don't see how it "just happened". You made a CHOICE to remove clothing and do the deed. Yes? No..it hasn't been a one time thing. The first time, it did "just happen." Neither of us planned for it - it just did. I did recognize that I was crossing the line - but got too caught up in the moment. Since then, I own the CHOICES that I have made. The right choice would be NC, other than work projects that we have to work together on. I'm almost there. I know it's not good for anyone. Years from now, I'll say the first night "just happened." Maybe you had to have been there to really understand.
Planofool Posted August 9, 2008 Posted August 9, 2008 Kami, I'd agree. But I'd also like you to think about this... Most people don't wake up and say "today is the day that I'm going to have an affair". I'm POSITIVE that my wife never did any such thing. But...she DID reach a point where she'd stay in bed until the moment I left to go to work in the morning, and then rush downstairs to log into her IM program and begin chatting with OM. She made the CHOICE to avoid me and avoid letting me know that she was IM'ing with him. She did so intentionally...CHOOSING to pursue something that she knew was "over the bounds". While people don't decide "today is the day that I'll have an affair", they DO reach a point where they say "this is something I know I shouldn't be doing since I'm married..."...AND THEN PROCEED TO DO IT ANYWAY. They DO reach a point where they say "we're talking about things that my husband would be horribly hurt if he knew"...and then intentionally allow that conversationi to continue and go further because they WANTED it to. There is nearly always a point where they can look at the relationship that's forming and realize that they shouldn't be crossing that line...but then the choose to do so. Same thing with "falling in love". Its one thing to be attracted...its another thing to choose to PURSUE that attraction. Owl I asked my wife how could you take every opportunity to call the OM and never once think of your husband as you were dialing his number. Did your wife ever admit to you that she knew she was doing something wrong? Mine never did. Is this common or do most cheaters admit they knew they were doing wrong.
The_411 Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 Bottom line, Cheating is cowardice. It demonstrates a lack of integrity. Cheating results from a break down in a relationship. The relationship breakdown onus is on both parties but cheating 100% on the person who cheated. Cheating can be a mistake but not an accident unless you tripped and fell on someone and while falling somehow your clothes fell apart and the other person's clothes fell apart or come apart. See how ridiculous that sounds? That's how asinine some of you sound. If a relationship isn't working then it isn't working you either cut your losses with integrity or you both bust your but and fix the damn relationship. Yes it all happens that we can be attracted to others and anyone who has said they've never been attracted to someone else while in a relationship is lying. That being said I wonder when did cheating become so acceptable and when did morality become so "uncool"? A whole lot of you should realize that mentality that I can do whatever I want and screw everyone else is really just a metaphor for a weak human being.
Owl Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 Isn't it most likely that both the BS and the WS are guilty of neglect of their marriage and care for each other - not just the BS? That depends on what the real source of the "problem" is. Sometimes, its just the cheater themselves that have the problem. Its a personality issue...they're so focused on themselves that the marriage never stands a chance, no matter what the BS does. Or in my case...it wasn't that my wife was so focused on herself, but she was the source of her own problems...she had untreated depression that she would not be seen for, she made some poor choices during that time that led to some consequences that made her profoundly unhappy, but refused any kind of help from my side to change....all of this fed into her ultimate choice to get involved with another man emotionally and eventually decide to move out and live with him, thinking that the problems were in our marriage. (she opted not to go live with him at the last minute) She was the true source of her own suffering...it wasn't me, nor was it our marriage. I tried everything I could to rectify things...but the cold hard truth is that nothing was going to get better until things got so bad that SHE had to make a change.
Owl Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 No..it hasn't been a one time thing. The first time, it did "just happen." Neither of us planned for it - it just did. I did recognize that I was crossing the line - but got too caught up in the moment. Again, that's EXACTLY my point. You REALIZED you were crossing a line...but you were too "caught up in the moment" to CHOOSE TO STOP. YOU CHOSE TO CONTINUE, KNOWING YOU WERE CROSSING A LINE. Not an accident. It didn't "just happen". It may have happened quickly, and it may not have been premeditated...but that doesn't negate the CHOICE that it took for you to make it happen. See what I mean? There's a difference between unplanned and "just happened". There's still the CHOICE to do so, or the CHOICE to continue as its happening.
Owl Posted August 11, 2008 Posted August 11, 2008 Owl I asked my wife how could you take every opportunity to call the OM and never once think of your husband as you were dialing his number. Did your wife ever admit to you that she knew she was doing something wrong? Mine never did. Is this common or do most cheaters admit they knew they were doing wrong. My wife admitted later that she knew she was doing something wrong. But she also stated that she deliberately didn't let herself THINK about that fact while it was all going on. Nor did she let herself think about what she was doing when she was with me either. Compartmentalization, my friend. However, I'd like to point out that if your wife has NEVER admitted that she was wrong for doing what she did, its a clear indicator that she's never processed it...it means she mentally/emotionally left that door open for her to do it again. She's still justifying it in her mind... Admitting it was a mistake is CRITICAL in recovering your marriage from an affair. I still think that the both of you never TRULY 'recovered' from this. And I think that its going to stay like this until something triggers REAL change in your situation.
John Who Posted August 12, 2008 Posted August 12, 2008 infedelity is indeed a choice,to bad I did'nt realize I was making a bad choice until after I made it.
Recommended Posts