movingonandon Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 Yep, it just occured to me that this is always the case, no matter whether we talk about physical or emotional infidelity. You know how people always say that if you fell in love with someone better, the honest thing is to break up with your current partner first, and then pursue the new relationship. But, in reality this NEVER happens, simply because in order to fall in love (or simply to desire) someone, you need to interact with him/her. And the second you realise that you may have such feelings and yet continue to interact with him you've committed infidelity. Therefore, it all boils down to the CHOICE to pursue or not such interactions. The reason I was always been able to stay faithful to my girlfriend was not the lack of temptation, but simply that I've always dismissed any interactions with women that coul lead "somewhere". And if I ever run in a woman who is attractive and made me feel "differently", I'd easily recognize that and therefore limit my interacitons with her. Just consistently doing that would get me through a 100 years of relaitonship/marriage (well, if my girlfriend did the same, that is...) How hard is it to do that, for crying out loud? I understand that many people may have issues that prevent them from seeing the interactions this way, but this is still not an excuse... All I'm saying is that infidelity is a 100% choice, be it conscious or unconsious, there are no external circumstances to blame...
quankanne Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 it's hard because by their very nature, people tend to justify their wants. However, there are the people who also don't give a damn about doing right by others – you know, the one who refuses to give up their spouse or BF/GF while pursuing someone else, because they don't think it's in their best interests. Or they think they're doing the other person a "favor" by staying with them. All a load of BS in my book ...
GPFan Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 How hard is it to do that, for crying out loud? I understand that many people may have issues that prevent them from seeing the interactions this way, but this is still not an excuse... All I'm saying is that infidelity is a 100% choice, be it conscious or unconsious, there are no external circumstances to blame...Can't argue with this, makes sense to me.
stoopid_guy Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 No argument. It's a choice. I choose to keep my home and family, and spend time with the lady who makes me happy. I assume full responsibility for that decision should I be "caught."
Agent_99 Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 Interestingly, I'm not sure I've seen many people say that it wasn't a choice. I do want to say that the A in my case was inteneded to be a PA only. It wasn't my choice to fall for her and loving her happened under my conscious radar. As soon as we realized we were developing deeper feelings we broke it off for a while. ~99
grogster Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 Interestingly, I'm not sure I've seen many people say that it wasn't a choice. I do want to say that the A in my case was inteneded to be a PA only. It wasn't my choice to fall for her and loving her happened under my conscious radar. As soon as we realized we were developing deeper feelings we broke it off for a while. ~99 That's true. Choice is never the issue. I don't remeber ever reading a post where the OM/OW exclaimed, "X made me do it!" Rather, the discussion (and I use that term loosely) is whether the Affair is ever justified or should end. Still, the OP makes a good point; opposite sex friendships especially in the office can be very, very dangerous. If you enjoy being happily married, avoid any emotional entanglement with opposite sex co-workers. Work is often the Affair gateway.
stoopid_guy Posted August 4, 2008 Posted August 4, 2008 .....It wasn't my choice to fall for her and loving her happened under my conscious radar. As soon as we realized we were developing deeper feelings we broke it off for a while. ~99 True, "falling" for someone is not necessarily a choice . Your actions (or lack of) are choices though. Just as an alcoholic chooses to take a drink, an "infidelitator" chooses to pursue someone outside of marriage. But as a couple of others said, no ones really said "I had to do it." Am I missing the OP's point of the thread?
Author movingonandon Posted August 4, 2008 Author Posted August 4, 2008 True, "falling" for someone is not necessarily a choice . Your actions (or lack of) are choices though. Just as an alcoholic chooses to take a drink, an "infidelitator" chooses to pursue someone outside of marriage. But as a couple of others said, no ones really said "I had to do it." Am I missing the OP's point of the thread? Actually, a very good point. You're not missing the original point by qualify it very approrpiately - having had problems with alcohol myself, i am very familiar with the feeling of knowing that you have a problem with alcohol, but take that first drink anyway, hoping that somehow everything will be all right (e.g. denial). Some times, it is ok (e.g. for some reason you do indeed stop at drink # 4), but sometimes, you wake up in horrible places, unaware of how you got there... Then you realise what you've done. I think that was a good analogy... PS Just for the record, not a drop for 3 years. So it can be done, the same way that "non-infidelating" can be done...
Angel1111 Posted August 4, 2008 Posted August 4, 2008 Most of the time, people who cheat on their spouses are at the end of their rope with the relationship - and have felt that way for quite a while. Then along comes an opportunity that they really don't want to pass on, or an opportunity that they have been mulling over for some time, and it just seems like the thing to do. Then, after the fact, the reality of it tends to change and they realize that they've cornered themselves. It is a choice but it's a choice that's often made under clouded judgement.
april1325 Posted August 4, 2008 Posted August 4, 2008 I agree it is a choice. I hate when the significant other tries to blame it on you. How is it my fault that you persued this other person, and you knew where it was going? If you dont want to be with your mate anymore just break it off instead of trying to keep them on the back burner . Just in case it dont work out. This is a very sore subject for me. If the persuer and the ow/om decide to make it physical , all I ask is just end the relationship with your mate before it is physical. All I ask is for a little decency, and besides just because they are sleeping with the ow/om doesnt mean you want to. There is to many stds going around that no one wants to catch, just because the cheater had no self control. Beside It makes things a little easier when you break up. It still hurts, but not as bad. Cheating is a choice. What I've figured out is the person in the relationship that is accusing you all the time of cheating, is usually the one doing the cheating. I believe it is called transference of guilt. Most of the time your gut feelings are usually right.
stoopid_guy Posted August 4, 2008 Posted August 4, 2008 I agree it is a choice. I hate when the significant other tries to blame it on you. How is it my fault that you persued this other person, and you knew where it was going? A real-life example: I have a friend who's weight yo-yos. She's 5'8", and since I've known her (2 years) she's gone from 220-ish lbs to 160-ish and back again. She's a very sweet, loving lady with a great sense of humor. If you met her, I'd bet that you'd like her. She was married at one point. She got pregnant, and her weight ballooned . After their baby was born, her husband completely stopped showing her affection and nagged her about her weight constantly. He started sleeping on the couch. He was a good Daddy, but a crappy husband. She was depressed and felt worthless. A guy at work was nice to her and made it known he found her attractive, and eventually they had an affair. Then she moved out from her husband and started divorce procceedings. OK, SHE made the choice to cheat. BUT (in that case) I'd say her husband ended their marriage by choosing to treat her like crap and choosing actions that made her feel un-appreciated. She made a "bad" choice, but it's easy to understand how it happened. I would not consider her a "bad person" for cheating. April, I don't know your circumstances and I'm sorry you're in pain.
Author movingonandon Posted August 4, 2008 Author Posted August 4, 2008 Most of the time, people who cheat on their spouses are at the end of their rope with the relationship - and have felt that way for quite a while. Then along comes an opportunity that they really don't want to pass on, or an opportunity that they have been mulling over for some time, and it just seems like the thing to do. Then, after the fact, the reality of it tends to change and they realize that they've cornered themselves. It is a choice but it's a choice that's often made under clouded judgement. That's a great point, and exactly what makes the question whether to forgive ambivalent. On the one hand, cheated == end, period, no ifs, bo buts - end. On the other hand, if the mistakes and the underlying issues are sincerely acknowledged, why not? Just for the record, I am (I think I am...) of the do not forgive under any circumstances school of thought, but it is not an easy stance precisely because of the realization that the person in question might sincerely regret it...
Author movingonandon Posted August 4, 2008 Author Posted August 4, 2008 A real-life example: I have a friend who's weight yo-yos. She's 5'8", and since I've known her (2 years) she's gone from 220-ish lbs to 160-ish and back again. She's a very sweet, loving lady with a great sense of humor. If you met her, I'd bet that you'd like her. She was married at one point. She got pregnant, and her weight ballooned . After their baby was born, her husband completely stopped showing her affection and nagged her about her weight constantly. He started sleeping on the couch. He was a good Daddy, but a crappy husband. She was depressed and felt worthless. A guy at work was nice to her and made it known he found her attractive, and eventually they had an affair. Then she moved out from her husband and started divorce procceedings. OK, SHE made the choice to cheat. BUT (in that case) I'd say her husband ended their marriage by choosing to treat her like crap and choosing actions that made her feel un-appreciated. She made a "bad" choice, but it's easy to understand how it happened. I would not consider her a "bad person" for cheating. April, I don't know your circumstances and I'm sorry you're in pain. This is an extreme example, however. Most affairs are the result of the unwillingness to work on the issues with your partner. If such issues are neglected for a long enough time can easily result in "what's the point" attitude, although they could be easily addressed. I'm talking about personality flaws (everybody has them), not de-facto abuse which is what you're describing... Also, many people who cheat are simply very emotionally immature and do not understand how easy it is for another man or a woman to be everything that their current partner is not. When you focus on what you don't have and ignore what you do have, it is easy to delude yourself into thinking that the new man/woman is your new true "love". Although I understand the mechanism, I think that is is ridiculous and I'd rather be cheated on and break it off rather than be with a person with a such low level of self-awareness...
Owl Posted August 4, 2008 Posted August 4, 2008 You can CHOOSE who you fall in love with. You may find yourself ATTRACTED to someone you meet. Heck...it happens to me occasionally, just like it does to ANYONE/EVERYONE. But you can CHOOSE to act on that attraction, or not. You can feed it, or you can avoid the situation and the person you're attracted to in order to prevent those feelings from escalating. If you CHOOSE to feed those feelings, if you choose to continue to have any kind of relationship with this person you're attracted to, you run the risk of those feelings escalating into love. As you spend time with this person, and your feelings for them increase (for whatever reason), you still have the CHOICE in how you respond and react to them. You can take actions to end the relationship before the "love" hits. You can choose to end the relationship before you 'cross the line'. Physically OR emotionally. There's ALWAYS a point where you recognize that you're doing something that's 'crossing a line'. Hiding the IM/text that OM/OW just sent you from your spouse...deliberately putting their number under someone else's name in your contact list so that your spouse doesn't see it...etc... A clear trust that you've violated. A clear indication that you've "crossed the line". What you decide to do when you recognize that you're near or at that line...is a CHOICE. What actions you take as those feelings start at the beginning or grow over time...those are each individual CHOICES that you make. No...I do NOT buy into the 'love at first sight' malarky. I fully believe that people can be ATTRACTED to one another from the beginning...but it takes communication of a personal/emotional level to let those feelings grow into 'love'. And that requires you to CHOOSE to allow things to escalate and grow. This isn't all that complicated to understand.
bish Posted August 4, 2008 Posted August 4, 2008 Interestingly, I'm not sure I've seen many people say that it wasn't a choice. If they say it "just happened", then they are basically saying that it isn't a choice. By saying it "just happened" is playing the woe-is-me card as if they had no control over their actions AND they had no choice.
stoopid_guy Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 This is an extreme example, however. Most affairs are the result of the unwillingness to work on the issues with your partner. It may not be as extreme as you think. I know there are worse people out there than her husband. Still, she made the choice to cheat. At the opposite extreme is the person who has no respect for their spouse, or will just hump anything that moves. Most infidelitators fall between these two extremes. (Admittedly, the opinion of a WS instead of a BS, at least not an aware BS.) Being unwilling to work through issues with your partner does kill the marriage, at least the romantic side of the marriage, but it doesn't force either party to cheat.
Rooster_DAR Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 I agree as well, it is a choice. It's also a clouded judgment call due to the feelings/emotions imposed on the cheater. Attraction to someone else can be overwhelming, and unless one has their character and judgment firmly in place, they are asking for trouble. Cheers!
Angel1111 Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 That's a great point, and exactly what makes the question whether to forgive ambivalent. On the one hand, cheated == end, period, no ifs, bo buts - end. On the other hand, if the mistakes and the underlying issues are sincerely acknowledged, why not? Just for the record, I am (I think I am...) of the do not forgive under any circumstances school of thought, but it is not an easy stance precisely because of the realization that the person in question might sincerely regret it... They may regret it but unless the problems in the marriage are dealt with, you might as well not bother. For me, I would not forgive an affair because the marriage did not mean enough to them not to take the risk. No matter how much they think and feel that they regret it, the truth is they don't want to be in the marriage, they just mostly feel guilty. I do understand how it can happen but it doesn't mean that I have to be tolerant of it. I would forgive and then forget them.
Agent_99 Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 True, "falling" for someone is not necessarily a choice . Your actions (or lack of) are choices though. Just as an alcoholic chooses to take a drink, an "infidelitator" chooses to pursue someone outside of marriage. But as a couple of others said, no ones really said "I had to do it." Am I missing the OP's point of the thread? Oh I agree. I made the choice to cheat when I did. It didn't just happen. I was the one who crazily thought that I could just plug in what I was missing in my marriage (sex) and it would all work out. Turns out I'm not a plug and play kinda girl. Realized after about a month that my marriage was over and left. No, they say it was a mistake or an accident, or I didn't go out looking for an affair. I can't help who I fall in love with. We were meant to be together, and all the other crap that says anything but I chose to do this thing that would hurt others, because my FEELINGS got in the way. a mistake is different than an accident. And I DIDN"T go out looking for an affair, one presented itself to me, and I CHOOSE to go for it. I ignored the advice of friends who said that I didn't know the hurt I personally was going to be in for, as well as hurting MW family. If they say it "just happened", then they are basically saying that it isn't a choice. By saying it "just happened" is playing the woe-is-me card as if they had no control over their actions AND they had no choice. Yes there are those so caught up in the circumstances that they don't realize that they made a choice. You can CHOOSE who you fall in love with. You may find yourself ATTRACTED to someone you meet. Heck...it happens to me occasionally, just like it does to ANYONE/EVERYONE. But you can CHOOSE to act on that attraction, or not. You can feed it, or you can avoid the situation and the person you're attracted to in order to prevent those feelings from escalating. If you CHOOSE to feed those feelings, if you choose to continue to have any kind of relationship with this person you're attracted to, you run the risk of those feelings escalating into love. As you spend time with this person, and your feelings for them increase (for whatever reason), you still have the CHOICE in how you respond and react to them. You can take actions to end the relationship before the "love" hits. You can choose to end the relationship before you 'cross the line'. Physically OR emotionally. There's ALWAYS a point where you recognize that you're doing something that's 'crossing a line'. Hiding the IM/text that OM/OW just sent you from your spouse...deliberately putting their number under someone else's name in your contact list so that your spouse doesn't see it...etc... A clear trust that you've violated. A clear indication that you've "crossed the line". What you decide to do when you recognize that you're near or at that line...is a CHOICE. What actions you take as those feelings start at the beginning or grow over time...those are each individual CHOICES that you make. No...I do NOT buy into the 'love at first sight' malarky. I fully believe that people can be ATTRACTED to one another from the beginning...but it takes communication of a personal/emotional level to let those feelings grow into 'love'. And that requires you to CHOOSE to allow things to escalate and grow. This isn't all that complicated to understand. And yet when it comes to human psycology it IS complicated. I'm still not sure what was going on with me at the time that allowed me to feel it was okay to cross a line that I had NEVER crossed in 13 years, and never thought I would cross, AND never thought it was okay to cross. Although it is something that I am aware I need to figure out before I committ myself to a serious relationship again. ~99 ~99
Owl Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 Its NOT complicated. People do things for themselves for precisely one of two reasons. They take action to get something that they want. They take action to get away from something they don't like. You crossed that line because you decided what you WANTED was more important than anything else. Its that simple. You made a CHOICE to do what you did. It only gets complicated when people try to complicate things. When they try to assign deeper motivations than are really there.
taylor Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 You can CHOOSE who you fall in love with. You may find yourself ATTRACTED to someone you meet. Heck...it happens to me occasionally, just like it does to ANYONE/EVERYONE. But you can CHOOSE to act on that attraction, or not. You can feed it, or you can avoid the situation and the person you're attracted to in order to prevent those feelings from escalating. If you CHOOSE to feed those feelings, if you choose to continue to have any kind of relationship with this person you're attracted to, you run the risk of those feelings escalating into love. As you spend time with this person, and your feelings for them increase (for whatever reason), you still have the CHOICE in how you respond and react to them. You can take actions to end the relationship before the "love" hits. You can choose to end the relationship before you 'cross the line'. Physically OR emotionally. There's ALWAYS a point where you recognize that you're doing something that's 'crossing a line'. Hiding the IM/text that OM/OW just sent you from your spouse...deliberately putting their number under someone else's name in your contact list so that your spouse doesn't see it...etc... A clear trust that you've violated. A clear indication that you've "crossed the line". What you decide to do when you recognize that you're near or at that line...is a CHOICE. What actions you take as those feelings start at the beginning or grow over time...those are each individual CHOICES that you make. No...I do NOT buy into the 'love at first sight' malarky. I fully believe that people can be ATTRACTED to one another from the beginning...but it takes communication of a personal/emotional level to let those feelings grow into 'love'. And that requires you to CHOOSE to allow things to escalate and grow. This isn't all that complicated to understand. OWL, This is so spot on you scare me. You should write your own book about infidelity. I recall THE EXACT DAY I CHOSE to open my heart to the OM...the day I DECIDED to stop fighting against the attraction and go with it instead. If I may, though, add a little personal insight into what went into this very conscious decision. No thought regarding my marriage or my husband went into the decision. There was no weighing of consequences, no concern about risk, no actual prioritizing of what I wanted more or who was more important. There was no comparison thinking. There was no thinking about the future or other family members. There was NO THINKING. The only thing I recall vividly when this decision was made was how awful I felt about myself at the time. My self esteem was at an all-time low and I felt lost and confused about my life in general. My husband and I had been having problems. We were both hurting. We both grew critical of each other. I didn't feel I could do anything right in his eyes and just the day before he had told me to "Go get a life. You disgust me." I grew so tired of fighting and feeling so bad about myself that I decided to put up a wall of indifference between us so that I would no longer feel the pain. I told myself I didn't care anymore. I gave up on "us" that day. The very next day I decided to stop fighting my feelings for the OM. The OM and I were both in very vulnerable positions. We both had very low self-esteem. We fed off of each other. Whenever his ex-wife or the boss made him feel like crap, he ran to me. Whenever my husband made me feel like crap, I ran to him. We gravitated to each other as we tried to hang on to some semblence of our self-esteem. I recall feeling like a moth being drawn into the light. I had a husband at home telling me I was disgusting and couldn't do anything right. I had an OM at work telling me I was an angel and how happy I made him feel. People gravitate to others who make them feel good and shy away from those who don't. Having low self-esteem and reaching out to a person to "fix" it for you does not justify an affair BUT is does offer some explanation as to why I, and perhaps, some others, chose this misguided path. I think people who have affairs say "it just happens"...because they don't give any mental consideration to the consequences of their actions before they act. Mental thought is turned off and emotions are running high on auto-pilot. Emotions control their actions, not their minds. When they finally wake up to the reality of the situation, they wonder, "How did I get here? How did this happen?"
Mickey Blue Eyes Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 It is a choice but it's a choice that's often made under clouded judgement. I'm the first to say that my PA "just happened." I will own that I did make a choice to let it continue to happen. I didn't even shave my legs that day.
stoopid_guy Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 I'm the first to say that my PA "just happened." I will own that I did make a choice to let it continue to happen. I didn't even shave my legs that day. I can't explain it, but I love that final comment!!!
Mickey Blue Eyes Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Just trying to make a point that I didn't intend for it to happen. That's all.
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