Mustang Sally Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 Thanks for sharing your experience, Angryyoungman. Tell me, did the ends (the alive feeling that you had during the A) justify the means for you? (To qualify the question, I don't mean this in a sarcastic or baiting type of way. I really am genuinely interested in what others have discovered for themselves when chosing this route. Thanks.)
TednAZ Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 I don't claim to know it all, this is just from my point of view. I have been in a relationship where sex practically dropped off after some time. Because I, as the woman, was just no longer in the mood. He pushed and prodded and begged, but my libido was just shot. It wasn't because I didn't have the desire because obviously, after we broke up, I was horny again. It was because my desire FOR HIM was no longer there. To his credit, he was a sweet, kind, gentleman but to his discredit, he was too clingy, too childish and too imature. He acted like he was my little puppy dog, non-assertive, no backbone and extremely needy. Sex, when we were having it, was ordinary and unexciting, even our make-out sessions were not arousing in anyway due to his lack of experience. I was expected to take charge and essentially be the "man" in the relationship. I'm a woman, I had no idea how to wear the pants. My loss of respect for him directly correlated to my loss of libido. I loved him, don't get me wrong and he didn't exactly do anything wrong, he just didn't know how to be a man. And my hormones only responded to a man not a little boy. Little moral of the story, especially for women, is instead of just saying "I don't feel like sex anymore". Think deep and find out why, what changed, what is HE doing that no longer lights your fire?. What should he stop or start doing to rekindle the flame?. Think back to when the thought of him got you all hot and bothered. Besides time, what has changed from then till now? ... and THAT is called "the Crazy Cycle" - MEN NEED RESPECT as much as WOMEN NEED LOVE. http://www.loveandrespect.com I'm new here and was also in a 'crazy cycle' sexless marriage of 17 years with the latter two years completely non-intimate/non-physical or emotional even and she used the exact same excuses as you have. I know of several masculine men friends who have had those words used against them as well. We are divorcing as we speak and are tied up in a very nasty legal dispute, full of false accusations, embellishments and false charges even - being amicable to her is a foreign concept as was/is showing me respect. She begged me to 'move out' in front of our kids even (as she also mocked, ridiculed, insulted and abused me constantly) on a near-daily basis, but said I never would as I could not part with my 5k sq. ft acre home. Then, when I finally did, she freaked out... lol - how dare I divorce HER... in fact, she raced me to filing the dissolution petition, using lies and deception, beating me to the punch bi four days... lol... then had me kicked out of my 16 room home with minimal sole/separate possesions (I was given less than ten hours to clear my things) and put out an OOP against me, falsely claiming she was afraid of me... to get back at me for leaving her and having my middle son voluntarily move with me. In my case, our low-sexed to sexless marriage stemmed mostly from her sexual abuse as a pre-teen coupled with having our youngest son become seriously ill nine years ago and is now special needs from his permanent brain damage. She gave him primarily her attention/affection as well as some to my middle son who was 3 at the time with little to my 7 year-old daughter... there was almost none left over for me, although she tried, she told me last Christmas just weeks prior to her filing, she fell out of love not long afterwards his illness. It was certainly not from my lack of libido or ability to get her off, although she, unlike me, is not multi-orgasmic. I am so sick of hearing we men are not aggressive/assertive enough... that is a BS cop-out. I rarely initiated sex with her, becuase I cannot deal well with rejection from someone close to me... it is worse to me than death. Besides, I was almost always in the mood, the exact opposite of her except during her ovulation, so why bother? We husbands do not like being nagged or disrespected, nor do we like being rejected or given excuses for you not wanting sex. The facts are women use sex mostly to ATTRACT men... that is a biological fact... and they can shut it off very easily compared to us men who wake up each day greeted with Mr. Happy in a morning glory staring at us with his cyclops eye, reminding us we are to propagate the planet. We are constantly told we're pervs for wanting sex or thinking about it and especially being visually drawn to it - that is bi our human nature, our DESIGN. You say you have a sex drive once again now that you're single... well, DUH... you are single and once again in need of attracting men, so you use the assets you have... Biology 101. Your man was not assertive enough, most likely because as you yourself said you disrespected him - congrats, you are doomed to repeat those exact same behaviors in your next relationship unless you begin to think differently - check out that Love and Respect link I gave you... it is instantly transforming and saving countless marriages or future marriages. I know a couple whose marriage it completely rescued. Many women say they are sexually attracted to 'bad boys' or ultra-masculine men even, yet they rarely marry them. Those guys stay single or divorced, mostly - care to venture a guess as to why? They rarely make good fathers or husbands and usually end up straying early in relationships. I highly doubt you ever truly demonstrated proper respect towards your husband from what you say and/or communicated your needs to him... it takes two. For men to 'take charge' and be the 'man' in a relationship, they MUST be respected. You expected, you wanted. What about HIS expectations and wants? What about swapping roles occasionally and/or being the aggressor rather than just pulling the plug? Men like feisty women, but not too feisty... and especially we do not like women who patronize us or humiliate us... and bi saying you 'love' us, but not respecting us or our sexual needs and desires, you doom your relationships. Mind you, bi my saying 'you' above, I am mostly speaking in a much more general usage or plural form of you, although some of it is definitely pointed to your words which reflect a majority of wives these days. I'm not trying to specifically target you, but moreso your words, which sadly are symptomatic of the epidemic in our society. We must as men and women change the way we HEAR each other... as is mentioned in L&R, men hear with a blue filter and women, pink. Perhaps we should think a little more purple-oriented. Men and women are designed differently on purpose... we are created with conflict in mind to some degree, so that we can grow beyond those said conflicts in a common bond to rise above our differences and accept each ther for who we are... special unique wonderful beings... beings who are not wrong, just different.
Crow9726 Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 I read your post with great interest and agree with it on many points. I am going through the end of a relationship right now and much of it is due to the differences we have in the bedroom. There are other issues as well but bedroom issues do bleed into other parts of the relationship. You're right that women tend to lust for the "bad boys" and then run to the "nice guy" when their feelings get crushed and their hearts broken. I am a nice guy...and finishing last is something that I have become accustomed to. Rejection and criticism hurt. When a man's ego gets deflated...when his self-confidence is being eroded on almost a daily basis...when encouragement and enthusiasm are replaced by ridicule and thinly veiled humiliation...the whole relationship becomes tainted. It's been noted a few times on this thread that a woman holds a man's self-esteem in her hands. She can either caress it and nurture it and keep it alive and growing...or crush it. Why they choose to do the latter I will never know. Many of these women who belittle their "nice guy" SO's end up leaving them or having affairs. They do tend to run back out and let their hormones lead them to another bad boy...hoping to make it work this time...entering into it with their legs spread in hopes that love will soon follow. When they are used and/or abused once again...they will long for the days they had with the nice guy...but the nice guy...if he's smart...will have moved on. There is a song titled "Passive Aggressive" that I relate to. A portion of the lyrics goes like this: "So wake up and face me. Don't play dead 'cause maybe...one day I might walk away and say...you f**king disappoint me...maybe you're better off this way." Even though most nice guys don't walk away...I can almost guarantee that they sing these lines to themselves in their heads...or a version that conveys basically the same message. And yet men are called the selfish and inconsiderate bastards of the world.
Mustang Sally Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Ted I think you make some very good points. One thing that gets old for me, personally, though - being a woman, and all - is hearing this business about how men are wired differently and need sex more than women. Now, I'm not going to dispute that men and women are wired differently (and have different drives for sex over a lifetime) at all. I happen to believe that we are, indeed "wired" differently. Much biological basis exists for that (studies showing brain differences in males vs females, related to exposure to androgens/estrogen during embryonic development, etc), besides the obvious phenotypic differences between men and women. I happen to believe that we are NOT created equal, and that we should embrace our differences. It is the differences between male and female that make me, as a woman, so attracted to men in the first place. However. I often feel like explanations coming from some men about this "men need sex, women need love" fact-of-life, coupled with (pun intended) the woman-biological-fact-of-not-needing-sex vs the man-biological-fact-of-needing-sex-all-the-time is frequently painted in a light of "so you women who trap us in marriage are just cruelly demanding we go against our very nature." It seems to me that - if what you state about women not needing sex beyond reproducing and "trapping" a mate into long term monogamy is unequivocally true - men who argue this point are, at the same time they are bemoaning their horribly unfair plight (not being sarcastic) because they are after all "wired" to need to have sex all the time, demanding of women (who are not in need of sex beyond the purposes of reproduction, remember?) to be something that they (women) are (apparently) not, as well. No? (If you could follow that thought...) Maybe - if all of these assumptions and generalizations about genders and their respective "biological destinies," as far as sex over a lifetime are concerned, are true - we have reached the infamous IMPASSE as male and female in western society. Maybe we should re-write our social doctrine so that marriage is no longer required. Men can seek their sexual release with whomever they can attract with whatever assets they have available to them (survival of the fittest, anyone?), and women can live in (ostensible) peace, unfettered by the "demanding sex" male. Of course, unless the males plan to contribute to the support of any offspring generated by the liasons, government institutions and subsidies would have to be in place to help the women raise the children appropriately.... I could go on. But hopefully you see my point? It seems as if part of the argument that you allude to in your post smacks of "Please, save us poor men from ourselves! We have no ability to cognitively override our hippocampal urges!" For the record, I happen to believe that a societal structure such as I've outlined above would NOT be desireable. Maybe I'm just too invested in the system we currently have now? Maybe I'm really just a romantic at heart who hopes and dreams for one other male person to live out my days with - passionately, as well as collegially, with plenty of both love and mutual respect to go around for all parties? Maybe something else entirely (that I'm sure I'll be hearing about it on this thread, soon)? Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not disagreeing with much of what you have stated about the tragic plight of men who find themselves in a sexless marriage. In fact, my heart goes out to them. What a difficult place to be. The repeated rejection that they feel is cruel and unfair. But I feel that both parties in such a situation are mandated (especially the woman, or whomever is withholding) to absolutely scrutinize and dissect WHY they feel the way they do...and do whatever is necessary to correct the situtation. NO ONE should carry out their days in such unhappiness. What I inevitably come back to is this: Sex feels good. Why would anyone NOT want to do it (even after they have secured their mate and had their children) if it feels good? My simplistic answer to this is: Because something about it must NOT be feeling good. Be it physical, or psychological. And surely, such issues should be able to be worked out by two people in a partnership, if they REALLY approach each other with a genuine desire for mutual satisfaction, caring and understanding. That's all.
Mustang Sally Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Many of these women who belittle their "nice guy" SO's end up leaving them or having affairs. They do tend to run back out and let their hormones lead them to another bad boy...hoping to make it work this time...entering into it with their legs spread in hopes that love will soon follow. When they are used and/or abused once again...they will long for the days they had with the nice guy...but the nice guy...if he's smart...will have moved on. See my previous post. Maybe it's just a woman's biological urge to do this? Similar to a man's biological urge to have sex frequently? Maybe women just need someone new after the monotony sets in? Maybe we are, after the long (millenia!) day is over, no more than the sum of our animalistic hormonal urges?
angryyoungman70 Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Thanks for sharing your experience, Angryyoungman. Tell me, did the ends (the alive feeling that you had during the A) justify the means for you? (To qualify the question, I don't mean this in a sarcastic or baiting type of way. I really am genuinely interested in what others have discovered for themselves when chosing this route. Thanks.) The EA that I had was a bit strange. I never expressed my true feelings to this OW, and only corresponded with her thorough email after we parted company (she lives across the pond in the UK). Even still, I knew what I was doing was wrong, and although it caused untold turmoil in my M and also broke my heart when I initiated no contact, it was worth it for the simple fact that I believed in myself again and found hope. It made me realize what was missing from my life.
carhill Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 I knew what I was doing was wrong, and although it caused untold turmoil in my M and also broke my heart when I initiated no contact, it was worth it for the simple fact that I believed in myself again and found hope. It made me realize what was missing from my life. You've defined clarity. Pretty amazing catharsis, isn't it?
Mustang Sally Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 It made me realize what was missing from my life. Do you think that you can find this "missing piece" (I'm a fan of Shel Silverstein) somehow, in your marriage? Or do you think you will ultimately have to find another relationship to meet that/those needs? What does your wife think in regards to these questions?
carhill Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 IMO, he will find it within himself. Something tells me the questions aren't on his W's radar, even if he articulated them.
angryyoungman70 Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Do you think that you can find this "missing piece" (I'm a fan of Shel Silverstein) somehow, in your marriage? Or do you think you will ultimately have to find another relationship to meet that/those needs? What does your wife think in regards to these questions? I'm absolutely positive that I can not "find" the missing pieces within my marriage. I fell for this OW not only because of her physical attributes, she was a vison of a dream-mate that I had in my youth, but also because of her personality/attitude. She had a zest for life and was so very different from my wife. Really, she's a polar opposite. The kind of woman I wished I had married. I do not think, however, that I will ever be in another relationship. I've been learning how to survive without my needs being met, and in the event that my marriage ends, I will not seek another relationship. My wife says that she wants me to be happy, and realizes that she will never change. She has said that she's willing to work on our marriage, but her efforts have always waned early into the effort potion whereas I've been the one who pushes to keep the momentum going. I inevitably throw in the towel after seeing that I'm the only one making any attempt.
Mustang Sally Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 I'm absolutely positive that I can not "find" the missing pieces within my marriage. I fell for this OW not only because of her physical attributes, she was a vison of a dream-mate that I had in my youth, but also because of her personality/attitude. She had a zest for life and was so very different from my wife. Really, she's a polar opposite. The kind of woman I wished I had married. Do you think that you simply chose the wrong person? If so, was it because you perhaps didn't realize at the time that you were picking the wrong thing (maybe you changed over time with what you wanted) or because your wife ended up not being what she initially presented herself to be? I do not think, however, that I will ever be in another relationship. I've been learning how to survive without my needs being met, and in the event that my marriage ends, I will not seek another relationship. Well, certainly your prerogative to chose a relationship or not. But I wouldn't write it off totally. You never know what life may throw at you, no? My wife says that she wants me to be happy, and realizes that she will never change. She has said that she's willing to work on our marriage, but her efforts have always waned early into the effort potion whereas I've been the one who pushes to keep the momentum going. I inevitably throw in the towel after seeing that I'm the only one making any attempt. Wow. That's sad. I wonder why she behaves that way? She must know how this hurts you. I often wonder if this type of response is because the person (your wife, in this case) is really that selfish, or they just lack insight...they have been numbed by too much marital complacency. Maybe they are so far "gone" that they can't even see what is missing? Kind of like she needs a reawakening, of sorts (like what you experienced with your EA, although I'm not suggesting she go out and have an affair) to remember what is missing? What do you think? I don't know the answers, obviously. And sorry if your story is already posted and I'm just asking you to re-hash stuff here. Thanks for sharing, though.
carhill Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Revelation: Perhaps, to the wife, the reality related is how she feels a healthy marriage is supposed to be. Her partner's complaints and observations puzzle her, so she engages, briefly, and then retreats back to what she knows to be healthy and comfortable for her. It was an interesting week in MC
angryyoungman70 Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Do you think that you simply chose the wrong person? If so, was it because you perhaps didn't realize at the time that you were picking the wrong thing (maybe you changed over time with what you wanted) or because your wife ended up not being what she initially presented herself to be? Well, certainly your prerogative to chose a relationship or not. But I wouldn't write it off totally. You never know what life may throw at you, no? Wow. That's sad. I wonder why she behaves that way? She must know how this hurts you. I often wonder if this type of response is because the person (your wife, in this case) is really that selfish, or they just lack insight...they have been numbed by too much marital complacency. Maybe they are so far "gone" that they can't even see what is missing? Kind of like she needs a reawakening, of sorts (like what you experienced with your EA, although I'm not suggesting she go out and have an affair) to remember what is missing? What do you think? I don't know the answers, obviously. And sorry if your story is already posted and I'm just asking you to re-hash stuff here. Thanks for sharing, though. We were 17 and 19 when we hooked up. I had some abandonment issues as a teenager, and she represented stability. I married her because that was what was expected of me, and I did not fully appreciate the finality of it all. So yes, I believe that I "picked" the wrong person. I don't think she's conciously negating her efforts to work on our marriage, she simply just does not see it as that big of a deal. She takes our marriage and yours truly for granted and coasts along, more concerned about how much money I make and what home improvements we can work on. She's also very attached to our (her) dog. Our 14 year old canine was put down in December of last year, and even though I was adament that I did not want another (I'm allergic), lo and behold, not 6 weeks later there's a new puppy in the house. For years, I resented that fact that she gave the dog more love and attention than I, and was quite vocal about it. Her response has always been that "dogs are simple, uncomplicated beings very few needs. Doesn't it make sense that I would want to give the dog more of my time and attention?" I no longer complain about said new pooch, as it gets me nowhere, except maybe the dog house.
Jersey Shortie Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Geez, sorry about your situation angryyoungman. That's not fair. I wonder if you didn't find another way to get through to her things would change.
silktricks Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Roro, I'd bet there is some truth to your idea. "Familiarity breeds contempt," at least in some cases. No doubt, many of us men get a little less interesting once we have a family. We're not willing to take the same chances, we have more to live for. Perhaps we're not as aggressive as we could be toward our wives. You are the most important people in our lives. We want you to be content. We expect you to want our happiness just as much as we want yours. It may take us years to realize that that's simply not the case. I've bolded a couple of points, because I personally think they are very important. Risk taking is an important part of the lives of many. Risks can vary, but risk taking AS risk taking can be extremely important. IMHO, I believe that if a person is a risk taker, then they are a risk taker for a reason. They may subdue that urge, but it will NEVER go away - nor should it. If a person has taken risks their entire life and then stop - that urge to "risk it all" is still there. The risks WILL be taken - but they may very well change both shape and scope. Instead of risking their life, perhaps they will risk their reputation - or their marriage. In regard to aggression. In America, at least, being aggressive is considered a big no-no for the last few years (I certainly hope that someday it changes!! This way is bbooorrrriiiinng). The idea seems to be that a man should NEVER show his aggressive nature towards his wife or lover - after all she may then claim to be - gasp - a victim. The problem is that sometimes - let's face it - aggressive behavior is a turn-on. We are not that far removed from our hunter forebears and an aggressive man was far more likely to be able to put meat on the table and protect us from others (including other hunters) than would be the milquetoast wannabe that we're supposed to want. So you may want us to be content - and much of the time we may want to be content. But the contented cow in the field is not exactly the image of sexual excitement one strives for, now is it!!???!
angryyoungman70 Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Geez, sorry about your situation angryyoungman. That's not fair. I wonder if you didn't find another way to get through to her things would change. I appreciate the sentiment JS, however this has been an issue all throughout or relationship. If anything could have been changed, I think it would have happened by now. She's adament that "this is how she is, take it or leave it". I mean, I know that she cares for me, as I do her, however any spark between us has long since dissapated. I wonder how much longer I can be in survial mode, and devalue my needs.
Jersey Shortie Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 You shouldn't have to. Everyone deserves to be loved and respected and have someone that cares about meeting their needs. Maybe it's time to take more serious action. Usually people don't change until something earth shattering happens and they *have* to change. Maybe the threat of loosing you would shake her up. And if it doesn't, maybe you can find a woman that wants to meet your needs.. and then you don't have to look at porn anymore.
Mustang Sally Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 I wonder how much longer I can be in survial mode, and devalue my needs. Angry - I've been where you are, at least in sentiment, although the circumstances in my marriage that led me to a similar statement of despair as yours, above, were different. I believe my question for all of LS at the time was, "When am I going to stop caring?" I received a lot of good perspective on that. I'm sure that you will too. I would just encourage you to not make any "hasty" decisions regarding your marriage. I also encourage you to not speak for your wife. I think she should speak for herself, and you should require her to, even more than you may feel that you already have. Have you two been to a counselor? I'm generally not a big fan of counseling (just my little way of fostering denial, I suppose), but it sounds to me like you two need a mediator, or - better yet - an interpretor, of sorts. Maybe she is not really hearing you? Maybe you are not really speaking a language that she understands? I realize that it seems obvious - she should GET what you are trying to convey to her. But maybe she simply is not GETTING it. I know for my husband, though I talked and talked with him - for years - about what was going on in our marriage (or NOT going on, more like), it took some drastic action for him to really be willing to come to the table with me and start breathing life back into what had become a very stagnant relationship. All of this depends, however, on how motivated to really exhaust all possible avenues of working it out that you are. Only you know the answer to that one. Peace.
angryyoungman70 Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Angry - I've been where you are, at least in sentiment, although the circumstances in my marriage that led me to a similar statement of despair as yours, above, were different. I believe my question for all of LS at the time was, "When am I going to stop caring?" I received a lot of good perspective on that. I'm sure that you will too. I would just encourage you to not make any "hasty" decisions regarding your marriage. I also encourage you to not speak for your wife. I think she should speak for herself, and you should require her to, even more than you may feel that you already have. Have you two been to a counselor? I'm generally not a big fan of counseling (just my little way of fostering denial, I suppose), but it sounds to me like you two need a mediator, or - better yet - an interpretor, of sorts. Maybe she is not really hearing you? Maybe you are not really speaking a language that she understands? I realize that it seems obvious - she should GET what you are trying to convey to her. But maybe she simply is not GETTING it. I know for my husband, though I talked and talked with him - for years - about what was going on in our marriage (or NOT going on, more like), it took some drastic action for him to really be willing to come to the table with me and start breathing life back into what had become a very stagnant relationship. All of this depends, however, on how motivated to really exhaust all possible avenues of working it out that you are. Only you know the answer to that one. Peace. Thanks MS. We have been to a few MC's. The first one suggested that I view sex as a cup of tea. She told me to think of asking my wife for sex in the same vien as asking her if she wants tea. Didn't really do much for me. The second MC simply asked us to face each other, hold hands, and look into each other's eyes. Our next step was to visualize what made us "fall in love" in the first place. Pretty useless advice. I really don't think I was ever in love with my wife. Lastly, we attended a weekend long "marriage rebuilding" program that included a weekend locked in a hotel listening to other couples share thier stories, and then writing letters to each other. This was followed by 12 weeks of Saturdays in a church, basically doing the same excercises. We completed this program last December, and although it seemed to have some immediate gains, they were all short-term and in no time we're right back where we started. So yes, we've tried outside help. I've spent a small fortune on self-help books as well. I've bemoaned my situation to friends and relatives alike. They have all told me the same thing, over and over again: get out. I'm still here. Not angry anymore, but certainly not happy.
Mustang Sally Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Thanks MS. We have been to a few MC's. The first one suggested that I view sex as a cup of tea. She told me to think of asking my wife for sex in the same vien as asking her if she wants tea. Didn't really do much for me. The second MC simply asked us to face each other, hold hands, and look into each other's eyes. Our next step was to visualize what made us "fall in love" in the first place. Pretty useless advice. I really don't think I was ever in love with my wife. Lastly, we attended a weekend long "marriage rebuilding" program that included a weekend locked in a hotel listening to other couples share thier stories, and then writing letters to each other. This was followed by 12 weeks of Saturdays in a church, basically doing the same excercises. We completed this program last December, and although it seemed to have some immediate gains, they were all short-term and in no time we're right back where we started. So yes, we've tried outside help. I've spent a small fortune on self-help books as well. I've bemoaned my situation to friends and relatives alike. They have all told me the same thing, over and over again: get out. I'm still here. Not angry anymore, but certainly not happy. Pardon me, but your descriptions of your past MC experiences made me LOL! (And not a whole lot on here does that...) Sweet Jeebuz, Mary and Joseph! THAT, my friend is why I prefer my little igloo of denial (my own little private Denial Planet, as I like to call it) over "counseling." I really, really feel for you. Sex has been an issue for my H and I, but as I said earlier, in a different way than what you and your W are going through (although we did have a sexless time in our marriage, too, so I can understand what that is all about on a personal level). I tried everything under the sun to fix the problem... It's better - not PERFECT, mind you - and I think it's to a place that I can live with it (and all our other issues) now. But the old stand-by crapola (IMO) of "you need romantic vacations together" and "you need to do it in different positions in different places" and "you need to just 'date' each other again" etc, etc, ad nauseum didn't fix our problems. I finally found a book that I think is more in-tune with what is going on with my H and I ("Mating in Captivity" by Esther Perel, for anyone that is interested) than all of the multitude of "Here's How to Fix Your Unsatisfying Marital Sex Life" books that I had already read. But we'll see. The jury's still out, because I haven't finished the book yet. Anyway, I think - in your case - Walk makes a very good point. Why ARE you staying?
angryyoungman70 Posted August 6, 2008 Posted August 6, 2008 Pardon me, but your descriptions of your past MC experiences made me LOL! (And not a whole lot on here does that...) Sweet Jeebuz, Mary and Joseph! THAT, my friend is why I prefer my little igloo of denial (my own little private Denial Planet, as I like to call it) over "counseling." I really, really feel for you. Sex has been an issue for my H and I, but as I said earlier, in a different way than what you and your W are going through (although we did have a sexless time in our marriage, too, so I can understand what that is all about on a personal level). I tried everything under the sun to fix the problem... It's better - not PERFECT, mind you - and I think it's to a place that I can live with it (and all our other issues) now. But the old stand-by crapola (IMO) of "you need romantic vacations together" and "you need to do it in different positions in different places" and "you need to just 'date' each other again" etc, etc, ad nauseum didn't fix our problems. I finally found a book that I think is more in-tune with what is going on with my H and I ("Mating in Captivity" by Esther Perel, for anyone that is interested) than all of the multitude of "Here's How to Fix Your Unsatisfying Marital Sex Life" books that I had already read. But we'll see. The jury's still out, because I haven't finished the book yet. Anyway, I think - in your case - Walk makes a very good point. Why ARE you staying? I love my kids dearly. That, in essance, is why we both are still together. Yes, I know you said that I should refrain from speaking for my wife, however she's made that statement to me when things have gone south. I have not heard of the book you speak of, but I may just pick it up. Glad I made you laugh! It's one of the things I enjoy (I've been involved in the local comedy/film/tv/ scene for years and am currently a member of the world's first improv theater company-guess where I live?!). Yes, it's all true! The first MC actually alluded to sex as a "spot of tea". She said if my wife says "no darling, I don't think I'm quite up for it this evening", my response should be "Oh very well sugar-kins, perhaps I'll just pour one for myself. Mmmm, that's spot-on. Cherio!". MC #2 was all of about 23, married for all of 6 months, and seemed to be more ackward and nervous than we were. Wow, what an expert!
carhill Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Every M is different, but what I'm hearing here from the ladies is the same thing our MC focuses on, clear communication and listening to one's partner with an open mind, one of positive stance rather then defensive stance. He works to ensure we are communicating our perspectives, not a bunch of superficial claptrap. Neither of us gets away with excuses/simple reasons. My postings here on the psychological issues underscore that. IMO, picking a MC who is a licensed psychologist with many years of family and marital counseling experience is a must for issues that stem from deep psychological backgrounds like abuse/abandonment/incest, etc. For us, the purpose of MC is to understand each other better and decide if that understanding reflects compatibility and real love for a continuation of the marriage. Peeling away the layers to get at the core. Contrary to the experiences of some, MC has saved me. Perhaps it won't save our M, but both of us only have one life to live, and having psychological and emotional health is a great gift.
stoopid_guy Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Angryyoungman, you're where I was a few years ago. Your wife simply cannot understand your needs, she cannot relate. The only thing I can tell you is that you WILL fall in love again. Suggest you plan in advance. Silktricks, great observations, especially about the risk taking.
luvstarved Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 I wonder if women (or men, for that matter) who seem to be content with the shallow, ungiving marriage...if they were truly honest, really do not care if the spouses have affairs. Like, in good conscience or for moral appearance, they can't SAY so, but are content to hum along with a tune in their heads and their blinders on...don't ask don't tell. Because I cannot FATHOM how someone can withhold affection, be begged for it almost, refuse to work with their spouse, and then...get indignant when the nearly inevitable occurs. DO NOT get me wrong. I DO NOT condone affairs. I think that if the love is gone then you should get out before starting something new. But...just being the devil's advocate, if it were a world of complete honesty... what would the answer to this question be from this kind of spouse (I pretty much assume there is "for the children" angle, I don't think many childless marriages in this loveless scenario would be sustained) "If you don't care about sex and romance, and the only thing you dislike about the marriage is your spouse's need for such, would you rather they have a secret affair (which gets them off your back, so to speak), or get a divorce?"
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