How do you know when it's time to throw him out?

[LoyalGirl]

I'm not the quickest typist, so I'll just give you the main events:

 

Mid-June- Husband tells me "I'm not in love with you anymore."

 

Mid-June- We start MC and he goes to IC.

 

End of June- EA comes to light with 2,500 text messages in May alone sent to/ received by OW. EA seems to be mostly by text, started in late February.

 

July- He tells me, "I'm angry right now that you discovered this. I know I have no right to be angry or ask you for anything. Give me some time to put this "friendship" back into its proper place. Please be patient with me."

 

Throughout July- 5-10 text messages about every other day to OW.

 

Tonight- H goes to baseball game in NY (I really DO know that is where he is tonight). I stay home caring for our 3 children (Ages 3, 2, 1). Six text messages to/from OW. This particular run of texts were started by her, not that it matters really. My son turns 1 tomorrow. We have a fun day and party planned.

 

I just don't know how much more I can stand. How do you know when you've had enough?

[carhill]

Simply tell him he needs verifiable NC with the OW or he can leave today. If you need a lawyer to put teeth in that request, well, that works too.

 

Is the EA pure romance? EA's don't have to be romantic, but they can be/are still toxic due to the secrecy...

[LoyalGirl]

Pure romance? I'm not sure...

 

OW is unmarried, and I kind of believe that she said she doesn't want to get involved with a MM. Still, 2,500 text messages? Do you realize HOW MANY that is?!?

 

She may have viewed this more as a "friendship" with special attention. He still has not come clean with all of the details...

[LoyalGirl]

Is NC really ever verifiable? I just feel like no matter what I do, say, no matter how much I monitor, if he WANTS to contact her, he will find a way.

[LoyalGirl]

I just feel so sad... incredibly sad...

[Ladyjane14]

If he's a young man with a new family... sometimes they just freak the heck on out due to anxiety.

They get worried that they're not going to be able to live up to their responsibilities and then they start looking for an escape hatch.

 

Most the time, guys like that don't really know what's bothering them underneath it all... they just feel unhappy in a kind of vague way. And since they can't define the problem... they end up MAKING one. They exaggerate the negatives in the marriage, they look outside it. And before long, they've convinced themselves that the REAL problem is that they're "in love" with somebody else.

 

Not saying that's your situation. But it seems that quite a few young guys end up cheating just when the family is getting started and the stress is high.

 

You best bet is probably going to be two-fold. One, get inside his head in order to figure out his REAL problem. And two, don't let him think you're willing to be his "side-dish". Soft as milk, hard as steel. You can beat OW's time by proving that you understand him best on the one hand, but that you're not willing to settle for sloppy seconds on the other.

 

It's a fine line, I know. But if he thinks he can push you... well, he's gonna push you. A cheating spouse is like a drug addict. They're all about getting their "fix"... so they're GONNA backslide a bit before they get it right.

 

If it was me, I wouldn't put him out just yet. I'd bust his ass though for breaking NC. Let him know that you understand he's having a hard time, but your patience isn't without end. Contact takes a toll on your love bank and at some point, it'll be drained DRY.

[soda]

Is NC really ever verifiable? I just feel like no matter what I do, say, no matter how much I monitor, if he WANTS to contact her, he will find a way.

 

Unfortunately, no. You're spot on in thinking that if he wants to, he will find a way.

 

The real question is determining whether you want to work on the marriage. Nobody would blame you for deciding to walk away. 2500 text messages suggests that he's been investing all of his emotional energy into OW.

 

If you decide to work on the marriage, it will be hard. Others have successfully saved their marriages after affairs...it takes hard work, but it can be done.

 

He must go absolute NC for you to have a chance, though. Heck, maybe he should give up his cellphone.

 

The first thing you have to do is give him a dose of reality. Right now, he's lost in the fog of the affair. You can possibly shoot him back to reality by telling him that if he continues his inappropriate and direspectful behavior, the marriage is over. But if you do this, you need to be prepared to follow through...otherwise, he will think that he can get away with what he's doing.

 

It's always sad when kids are involved. I wish you the best in whatever decision you make. Please keep us updated.

[LoyalGirl]

Soda,

I was hoping you would respond!

 

i've been scouring these boards looking for people who have had similar experiences... and you seem to have been through this.

 

The thing is, he runs into the OW at work (he is in law enforcement, she works at a store in town with some retail thefts).

 

He's telling me "Now you're going to tell me how to do my job?" When I tell him he does not need to text her for work!

 

He is still deleting texts and has not committed to NC.

[carhill]

Law enforcement, eh?

 

OP, what do you want here? If he refuses to do voluntary and verifiable NC (full access to his phone/e-mail records would be a start), IMO, then take legal measures to protect yours and your children's interests. Legal is something he'll understand

 

If he's like most cops, he'll use his training to further his interests, so you most likely won't get his attention by being pleasant. IMO, better to remain consistent and neutral in your requests and let someone else get his attention in a manner he'll respect. Sure he'll be pissed off, but, like spanking a child to get their attention, perhaps some communication can then occur.

 

If you do nothing, what do you think will happen?

 

He can transfer away from the OW's district. That's just one of many options to promote full NC. Everything in life is a choice.

[LoyalGirl]

Carhill, what do you mean by "legal measures?" A divorce... or something else?

[carhill]

A lawyer can properly advise you. Much depends on your jurisdiction, as well as your purpose.

 

Tell me, has your husband ever received psychological counseling from his law enforcement agency? If yes, how did he react to that? I ask because, in order to recover your marriage, he'll almost certainly need to participate in MC. Do you think he would agree to that?

[LoyalGirl]

We are currently doing MC, and he is in IC...

[carhill]

How's that going?

 

I ask because I had an EA and have been in MC for about 10 months now, so have some perspective.

[LoyalGirl]

Every time he comes home from IC, he seems to be more committed to the M, and seems to identify that he is messing things up.

 

In the MC, the focus seems to be on MY need for change, which I could definitely embrace and accept if he would go NC with the OW.

[carhill]

From my experience, IMO, it's best to focus on what you can do to improve your marriage, rather than bargaining one behavior/perspective for another. My wife did this, waiting to make changes until she was "sure" that I had sufficiently altered my behavior over a period of time. This proved toxic to my psychology and such behaviors are likely to be the impetus for ending our M. IMO, it takes concurrent work by both partners. No "waiting". If each knows what is needed (through communication), both should work on the M together.

 

My situation is a bit different than yours, but the basics are still the same. I voluntarily went NC with my old friend, even though my wife did not request nor necessarily want it, but because it was necessary for my health and to recover the health of our M, and have worked to clarify the reasons and my responsibility for the disease in the M and to rebuild its health.

 

YMMV, but significant progress in myself started prior to NC, which occurred about 8 months after MC started, and about 3 months after beginning MC. IMO, if your husband exhibits little to no resistance in MC, he's lying. No one, no matter how introspective, can easily admit personal faults in front of their spouse and a stranger. It's been exceeding difficult for both my wife and myself. Nothing worthwhile is every easy

 

It's a long road. If you still love him, and he you, it's worth it. I detached a couple years ago, so my path may be different, but I hope you do well

[soda]

Soda,

I was hoping you would respond!

 

i've been scouring these boards looking for people who have had similar experiences... and you seem to have been through this.

 

The thing is, he runs into the OW at work (he is in law enforcement, she works at a store in town with some retail thefts).

 

He's telling me "Now you're going to tell me how to do my job?" When I tell him he does not need to text her for work!

 

He is still deleting texts and has not committed to NC.

 

LoyalGirl -- I'm sorry that you're going through this experience. I know how much this hurts. I lost weight and a lot of sleep.

 

Your H's response is about what I expected. Expect a pattern of him hiding, denying, and trying to convince you that you're crazy, controlling, and paranoid. He'll twist facts so much that you'll be left confused about what the truth actually is, even though you know it.

 

The dirtiest tactic that he might use is suggesting that he's ready to call it quits because "you've both been unhappy for a long time." Don't buy into this. OW is his drug and you are his security blanket. Don't let him call the shots. You've done nothing wrong -- he screwed up.

 

There are actually chemical reactions in the brain during an affair. You'll hear many at LS call this "the fog." It is truly a fog. Regardless of the cost versus the reward, his reaction will be to keep the affair intact to feed his addiction.

 

Right now, he is like a child. He is certainly acting like one. You are more like a parent to him than you are a partner. I'm not saying this to suggest that you're trying to control him...I'm saying it because you are the stable, responsible partner in the relationship. In order to fix this issue, you need to make him understand that there will be consequences for his unacceptable behavior.

 

As much as you might want to, don't confront him with a "OW or me" ultimatim. You will not get through to him. Tell him that you that you know that he is behaving inappropriately and that you're concerned that the marriage won't work if he continues his inappropriate behavior. Set boundaries...you also need to be prepared to stick with them.

 

Don't tell him what evidence that you have. This will only help him find a different means for feeding his addiction. Stay vigilant and document everything, but never tell him what you know.

 

If my post sounds more appropriate for a how to on dealing with a drug addict, please understand that you are dealing with an addict. Sending 2500 text messages to the OW is sheer lunacy. The reward is far exceeded by the costs. Unless OW is a psychic with the winning numbers to next week's powerball, this is crazy behavior.

 

You need to DOCUMENT everything. Keep a journal...his receipts, and anything else you find that shows his unstable, irresponsible behavior. If you decide to stop working at your marriage, these things will help you in court.

 

Most importantly, remember that you are a good human being. You are being derespected right now by someone who promised never to betray you. Alos, be prepared for his EA to become a PA if it hasn't already. Don't listen to any bullcrap about how he "isn't attracted to her." I received this same song and dance...it was total bull. The other person could be Jaba the Hutt and BS would find a way to make it seem sexy.

 

Please keep us updated. Keep your chin up. You're a good person who is fighting the good fight. It's confusing and painful. Just remember, there are lots of other men out there who would cut off a limb to make you happy.

 

Again, I'm really sorry

[soda]

Every time he comes home from IC, he seems to be more committed to the M, and seems to identify that he is messing things up.

 

In the MC, the focus seems to be on MY need for change, which I could definitely embrace and accept if he would go NC with the OW.

 

This is why many people have little faith in MC.

 

I think counselors know that if they attack the guilty party, he or she won't come back. MC fails when one party doesn't come back.

 

Your marriage will never get better until your H goes NC. Your marriage cannot thrive with a third person in it.

 

To be honest, my own marriage is going to fail because I couldn't get the third party to come up with the human deceny to just decide to go away and find someone else who was available instead of selfishly destroying a M with innocent kids.

 

I hope and pray that you find more success than I did.

[soda]

From my experience, IMO, it's best to focus on what you can do to improve your marriage, rather than bargaining one behavior/perspective for another. My wife did this, waiting to make changes until she was "sure" that I had sufficiently altered my behavior over a period of time. This proved toxic to my psychology and such behaviors are likely to be the impetus for ending our M. IMO, it takes concurrent work by both partners. No "waiting". If each knows what is needed (through communication), both should work on the M together.

 

carhill -- thanks for great insight. However, she also needs to understand that her marriage is being rewritten in BS's brain. She's going to be flooded with things that SHE needs to do in order to improve the marriage.

 

LoyalGirl -- in order for your marriage to survive, your H must end all contact with OW. There can be no bargaining. Set this boundary for your health, wellbeing, and happiness. Your happiness still matters. It's probably going to be a while before you experience it again, but you must take care of your needs...H is not. He's lost in his own world. Do what you can to ensure your wellbeing. Know that you have a motivated support network.

[carhill]

carhill -- thanks for great insight. However, she also needs to understand that her marriage is being rewritten in BS's brain. She's going to be flooded with things that SHE needs to do in order to improve the marriage.

Ruh, roh, another long night. I thought she was the BS (betrayed spouse) and he was the WS (wayward spouse)... Oy!

 

Do you mean her husband is going to pile on "reasons" for the EA and expect "changes" in her? Yes, he probably is. She should be prepared for that work. If he's not a sociopathic cheater, then there likely were issues in their marriage on both sides which need dealing with. She should want to work on those issues.

 

IMO, the EA stuff should be exclusive of MC. Our psychologist redirects any inferences thereto and focuses solely on the marriage and our respective roles and responsibilities. I had to do a lot of "forgetting" the past in order to let go of my pain and move forward; such is also my wife's work.

 

OP, you will likely get very discouraged. I know I have. However, I see the positive stories here on LS, and like the changes MC has brought into my life, so I think of those when I get discouraged. No one can predict the future, but we can make every effort to make the most of the present

[LoyalGirl]

I am prepared and willing to do the work that needs to be done, but it seems as if in MC ALL the focus is on me. I do see the EA as both a symptom and cause...

[bish]

I'm not the quickest typist, so I'll just give you the main events:

 

Mid-June- Husband tells me "I'm not in love with you anymore."

 

That right there is the sign of when to throw him out.

 

The rest is just icing on the cake and justification as to why HE should be the one to leave.

 

 

Mid-June- We start MC and he goes to IC.

 

End of June- EA comes to light with 2,500 text messages in May alone sent to/ received by OW. EA seems to be mostly by text, started in late February.

 

July- He tells me, "I'm angry right now that you discovered this. I know I have no right to be angry or ask you for anything. Give me some time to put this "friendship" back into its proper place. Please be patient with me."

 

Throughout July- 5-10 text messages about every other day to OW.

 

Tonight- H goes to baseball game in NY (I really DO know that is where he is tonight). I stay home caring for our 3 children (Ages 3, 2, 1). Six text messages to/from OW. This particular run of texts were started by her, not that it matters really. My son turns 1 tomorrow. We have a fun day and party planned.

 

I just don't know how much more I can stand. How do you know when you've had enough?

[soda]

Ruh, roh, another long night. I thought she was the BS (betrayed spouse) and he was the WS (wayward spouse)... Oy!

 

 

 

Yeah, I messed up...I was up late, too.

[Lizzie60]

Every time he comes home from IC, he seems to be more committed to the M, and seems to identify that he is messing things up.

 

In the MC, the focus seems to be on MY need for change, which I could definitely embrace and accept if he would go NC with the OW.

 

This is normal.. at the IC, he's 'brainwashed' towards the commitment of his M... then as soon as he gets in touch with her... he forgets about the counselling.. quite typical actually...

 

There isn't much you can do.. sorry.. you need to start looking for yourself and your kids... financially, etc... talk to a lawyer.

[soda]

 

IMO, the EA stuff should be exclusive of MC.

 

Why? It's like sitting in a room and pretending not to notice that it's on fire.

 

I know that many will argue that affairs happen because something is wrong in the marriage. For the most part, I agree with this. However, sometimes what's actually wrong is that the cheating spouse is just a selfish jerk who has no respect for his/her spouse.

 

MC might be able to uncover that, so she can move on.

 

Sitting on focusing on BS's issues alone gives him a complete free pass, which does nothing to end the affair so they can begin working on the marriage.

 

LoyalGirl -- MC went the same way for me, too. We focused exclusively on my issues...many of which my W made up whenever she felt we might be steering toward a discussion of her betraying me.

[carhill]

Why? It's like sitting in a room and pretending not to notice that it's on fire.

 

Actually, this is one instance where our psychologist really earned my respect. By focusing solely on us, he brought my attention back to myself and my responsibilities to the M, rather than rationalizing or explaining away my "reasons" for the EA. Essentially, he said, yes, you had/have an "emotional attachment"; you're married; do you want to work on your marriage? Yes? OK, let's do that. Over time, with the communication solely focused on the marriage, the importance of the emotional attachment lessened and I could psychologically center on the M. By avoiding wrong and bad, he essentially disarmed my defenses. We sparred a lot, since I know psych pretty well, but that's why I respect him and value his input.

 

As I've said prior, our experience is unique, as is the OP's, and she'll have to find her unique path to recovery. Her H is likely wired up completely differently than I or you and has very different motivations and needs. All that will have to be identified and worked on. It will only work if they want it to. If one or both are "faking", it'll just be more cr@p. It should never, ever, be easy. Fundamental psychological change is exceedingly difficult.

 

FWIW, my wife re-writes history a lot too. That's why our psychologist works on the present, today, not the stones we throw at each other over the past. It's also why I journal, both here and offline. I take notes (for the "recent" past, between sessions).

 

Perhaps "unacceptable" is a word the OP can practice up on. She'll be needing it