luvstarved Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 This is sort of an update on me, but I am also interested with other people's experience with this... My H and I worked through a long sexless phase but I have continued to be unsatisfied with the lack of real intimacy in our marriage. The sex is impersonal, he won't talk about it really and just wants to go with "it's fine, don't make an issue" and "focus on the positive". I want to have a great marriage, not just another story of hanging on in quiet desperation under a constant cloud of mystery about the person one supposedly shares a life with. The whole sexless phase has never been addressed honestly and I have been left to wonder what it was all about and whether the "improvement" of having sex again is all just him bucking up and meeting his obligations. In other words, I still feel like he isn't all that much into me but feel that the reasons may or may not be correctable. I suppose my mission is to make that determination and either fix it or forget it. So far the cooperation from him has been limited...he happily goes to counseling, reads articles, and has made improvements in other areas (his anger problem has improved a great deal), but I can't seem to crack the sex issue. Anyway, part of this has been a refusal on his part to even acknowledge that any other relationships existed for him before me. Nobody important, not worth talking about, nothing meaningful, nothing long-term, etc. We went on a ride the other night and were talking and somehow meandered into me asking a lot of questions and finally getting the big picture on his romantic history. After 12 years of not even so much as knowing a single ex's name, suddenly I had it all. We even got home and looked up some names on the internet together (his idea, "now you've got me curious"). He sort of got into it for a while then got tired and bored...the upshot was that outside of him having a few relationships that were longer than he'd seemed to indicate before, the vibe I got was that he was pretty truthful that there wasn't any big someone in the past and just a series of dating someone to be dating someone for varying lengths of time. I was completely fine and even somewhat reassured by this and felt very positive about it, thinking it felt like a breakthrough towards intimacy. All through the process, I told him that I did not expect him to tell me anything or continue the conversation beyond his comfort level, but he freely gave me information. I did not ask anything about how the sex was with anyone, or what they looked like, just general chronology, how they ended and how he felt about it. I still feel this was a very positive thing...I admit that I had some trepidation that I would later start to dwell on names and details but that has not happened...after all, I certainly don't sit around daydreaming about guys I went with 15 years ago... But I am wondering how others have handled this. 1) Have you shared romantic history? 2) How has it impacted your relationship? (BTW, our counselor sent us an article he wrote about improving sex and H and I read it together and said it was good. We have an appointment Tues and I am hoping to make progress in opening up this topic. We had sex once since this talk and it was just the usual awkward crappy stuff that he claims to be completely fulfilled by...the issue is not his "technical skills" at all, just the routine and impersonal nature of things)
Walking away Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 I would not share intimate details of your romantic histories. It may just produce more pain for you as you may "compare" this relationship with past ones of his.... Don't do it, IMHO.
whichwayisup Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 But I am wondering how others have handled this. 1) Have you shared romantic history? 2) How has it impacted your relationship? We know abit but not in details. Just better that way. Just numbers and why it ended, stuff like that. Neither of us need to know anything other than that, though I can understand how conversations like these lead to other questions, which sadly, eventually get answered and then cause problems later.. It hasn't impacted us at all. It's a non-issue. How was your sex life before the drought?
Curmudgeon Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 I don't see it as a positive. Except for reasonable inquiries in the early stages to rule out the possibility of HIV, herpes or any other existing STDs, I see it as more harmful than helpful. At certain ages you have to assume there's a history. It goes with the package. What more needs to be known unless the "past" is still your partner's "present." Let me hasten to say, this is a real personal issue for me. "Sharing" was a huge mistake my wife made in our early days (I refused to because I didn't see it as germain to us) and I've fairly recently discovered she was neither honest nor truthful about it in the first place. I've lost a lot of trust in and respect for her which may ultimately signal the end of our marriage. The jury's still out on that one but will have to decide within the next six months.
Trialbyfire Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 I don't see a full recounting of all romantic relationships as positive within the confines of a long-term marriage. Isn't it kind of late for that? If as at the point of dating, you discussed numbers (sexual history) or why certain LTRs failed or succeeded, it helps the person make a decision of go or no go. It's good that your H is in IC. Are you in IC too?
Nevermind Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 I would say what needs to be said for the sake of the relationship. So, anything that could be of importance. Numbers, chance of STDs, why the relationships ended etc. Details only if they have impact on your behaviour. It's just hurtful or stressful otherwise. In general I'd rather focus on the present and future, then dwell in the past.
Author luvstarved Posted July 20, 2008 Author Posted July 20, 2008 To answer the questions from above posts, neither of us is in IC, we are in MC...our sex life before the drought was great (first 2-2.5 years, before daughter was born), and NO NO NO I did not ask for intimate details... I DID have a reason...though I did not plan on the conversation evolving as it did...it was info I wanted, not to look for trouble, but to try to understand his perspective on relationships, better understand where he had come from, why he seemed to act certain ways and harbor certain opinions and have such an issue with trust... I even told him as much. He wanted to know why I wanted to know this stuff, he said it was irrelevant, etc, and he also said that he did NOT want to know similar from me because he did not "want that stuff in [his] head" and I said that was fine, but for me it helped me feel I knew him and understood him better. He accepted that and said if it helped me in any way, he was fine with telling me... I know it can cause trouble, but I also feel it can increase understanding. I definitely feel I got something good from it...he has trouble with opening up and discussing things, has had issues with anger and trust, and held notions that "after a point the honeymoon is over and that is that and nothing can be done about it", and related ideas. One specific question I had was, why are his parents the only people he genuinely deeply trusts,when for 12 years I have given him no reason not to trust me? Generally, lack of trust is either because one has never really exposed themselves to vulnerability, or one has been seriously burnt. The answer here seems to be that he has never really opened up to that level with anyone...and that makes me feel more secure in knowing how to proceed from here... I completely agree that digging for details like "who was best in bed" and " who was best looking" and all that WOULD be a VERY bad idea, and I really don't have that curiosity...
Trialbyfire Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 luvstarved, I think it wonderful that you continue fighting the battle to hold your marriage together. The only issue I see is that you can't fix him. He has to want to fix himself and take the lead on doing so. The more responsibility you take in fixing him, the less responsibility he will take for himself. Please consider IC for both of you.
carhill Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 To answer the questions from above posts, neither of us is in IC, we are in MC...our sex life before the drought was great (first 2-2.5 years, before daughter was born), OP, did he deal with the "you are now his mother" issue? You know, where he sees you, now being a mother, as his mother and enters the classic battle between desiring the mother and the repulsion of the incest with the mother.... It sounds, superficially, that he has a hard time expressing his emotions. Not uncommon for men. Has the MC given him any tools?
Curmudgeon Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 I even told him as much. He wanted to know why I wanted to know this stuff, he said it was irrelevant, etc, and he also said that he did NOT want to know similar from me because he did not "want that stuff in [his] head" and I said that was fine, but for me it helped me feel I knew him and understood him better. I know it can cause trouble, but I also feel it can increase understanding. I definitely feel I got something good from it...he has trouble with opening up and discussing things, has had issues with anger and trust, and held notions that "after a point the honeymoon is over and that is that and nothing can be done about it", and related ideas. One specific question I had was, why are his parents the only people he genuinely deeply trusts,when for 12 years I have given him no reason not to trust me? Generally, lack of trust is either because one has never really exposed themselves to vulnerability, or one has been seriously burnt. My wife used the "getting to know you better" argument with me in trying to get me to open up about my past. She already knew about my previous divorce. We were friends and coworkers when it happened. I related one other relationship back in college, without details, simply expressing the pain I felt because I loved her dearly and she sent me the cliche'd Dear John letter when I was in the military and on my way to war. Nothing else mattered. Like your husband I didn't really care and certainly not about details. Again, at a certain age you have to assume there has been some degree of sexual experience. What's served by detailing it? It happened. Unless you're still invested in it and the people it happened with it's history that doesn't have to be, nor should it be shared. I can't even begin to address his relationship with his parents. I didn't have a real close one with mine (they both died about 20 years ago), I was burnt by my college sweetheart and badly burnt by the former wife who had a couple of affairs but so what? I'm an adult and can make my choices as I will. Interesting that my current wife of over 10 years has tested my trust and now been found wanting. But then again, the former one did for 25. Stay tuned for the next episode! Meanwhile, good luck. I hope the counseling works for both of you.
Mr. Lucky Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 Add me to the chorus of people that feels that there isn't much upside in sharing, especially the details. "He really made me scream" isn't something I'd want to hear from my W about an ex boyfriend. Even the numbers game - "how many partners have you had?" - can be problematic. Best to be enigmatic... Mr. Lucky
Author luvstarved Posted July 21, 2008 Author Posted July 21, 2008 Well, again, I did NOT ask for details, nor would I want details, about his past sex life, etc. It was all about understanding him better...wanting to know if he had ever really been close to or trusted anyone...there were also questions about male friends and whether he had ever really had a true confidante at all. I talked openly about my purpose, and how I saw him as an emotional loner and how I wanted a real marriage and am trying to figure out whether that is possible for us, etc. The bigger issues with him are about his R with his parents (he lived with them til we married) esp his mother as a role model for a mate (she is the epitome of obsequious toward him) and our still-mysterious sex issues. I am coming around to really believing that there is nothing weirder going on with him than naivete, a sheltered life and being brought up to be selfish and boundaryless, along with just not knowing how to act and being afraid to be honest. Because he has not opened up to anyone before, he seems to carry a lot of stereotypical type thinking about wives and relationships in general that I am trying to buck, many have been already but there are still some things he comes up with at times that surprise me. I think our sex issues will boil down to the fixable reasons, over time and lots of analysis the scarier reasons seem to be less likely (although the reasons I believe in do include boredom and him not having a clue what to do about it, and also feeling guilty about it...) It took YEARS to get him to acknowledge his anger issue, but now that he has, he has made dramatic improvements. Just recently, the counselor seemed to finally get through to him that his communication style was grandiose and unempathic and defensive. He has just started to listen and really hear what I am saying vs more or less asserting that he knew my thoughts and feelings better than I knew them (so that he was constantly reacting to a me other than the real me). We still deteriorate into old style communicating here and there but I am more hopeful than I have ever been in this relationship and find that many feelings of resentment and frustration are being replaced with love and understanding. One thing I am sure of is that we both want very much for this marriage to work. I am NOT trying to fix HIM. I am trying to do my part in the effort to fix US. And so is he.
Author luvstarved Posted July 21, 2008 Author Posted July 21, 2008 Interesting that my current wife of over 10 years has tested my trust and now been found wanting. But then again, the former one did for 25. Stay tuned for the next episode! Meanwhile, good luck. I hope the counseling works for both of you. Curm, thanks for the good wishes; backatcha on those. Since I first came to LS, I have always thought you were one of the most together people here and am sorry that you are having rocky times. I will stay tuned for the next episode and hope that it's a positive one...
Ariadne Posted July 21, 2008 Posted July 21, 2008 I really think that sharing romantic history increases intimacy. Anything that is "sharing" qualifies. I'd like to know everything about my partner. (Of course I will never have a partner)
Lovelybird Posted July 21, 2008 Posted July 21, 2008 I admire your determination for a great marriage, and glad you made improvements I think sharing is good to know each other, if you don't dwell on past details, but encourage each other to grow. Basically if a man wants to know me, and even know all my weaknesses, and still love me, then it is a great feeling, and I will be more willing to improve myself. Pray your marriage continue to make improvements
Author luvstarved Posted July 21, 2008 Author Posted July 21, 2008 OP, did he deal with the "you are now his mother" issue? You know, where he sees you, now being a mother, as his mother and enters the classic battle between desiring the mother and the repulsion of the incest with the mother.... It sounds, superficially, that he has a hard time expressing his emotions. Not uncommon for men. Has the MC given him any tools? The mother scenario is a psychological clusterf**k in his case...at times I have thought that my real role was to train to take over his caretaking as his Mommy aged...he has mentioned twice to me that he got "sexual signals" from his Mom but he also has a habit of dropping bombs like that and then not wanting to talk about it. All I have gotten out of him is that she embarrasses him when she talks about him as though he were her mate and not her son and something about "playing with her bra straps"...she does go on to people about how handsome and perfect he is...and it makes me sick too. Worsened by the fact that she is very energetic and attractive for her age so the creepiness factor is more overt. There is definitely some Oedipal crap/emotional incest going on there. My take is that she was this ideal of doing everything he wanted, giving him endless emotional boosting because he was her only son and she got her own emotional satisfaction from it...she violates my boundaries almost daily but it used to be almost hourly so progress is happening there too Anyway I think my H never attached to other women because none would treat him with the deference and praise that Mom did so other women's only real purpose was sex...I can't blame him for sticking to a situation that so strongly favored him (living with Mom up to and actually beyond the wedding)...but dealing with it can be a b**ch sometimes. He consequently has expected too much from me at times ( put his needs first and foremost, give without expectation of return, agree even if he is wrong, praise him lavishly) because he equates that behavior with "love". Intellectually he knows the difference, but often inappropriately characterizes my words or deeds as "lambasting" him or being unsupportive. Sigh. Right now we have an uneasy truce regarding his mother. It has improved...but we're not done with that topic yet...
Mr. Lucky Posted July 21, 2008 Posted July 21, 2008 I can't blame him for sticking to a situation that so strongly favored him (living with Mom up to and actually beyond the wedding)... Just curious luvstarved, because you seem like such a thoughtful and analytical person. Didn't his circumstances seem like a warning sign to you ? Mr. Lucky
orangesean Posted July 21, 2008 Posted July 21, 2008 I figure sharing your sexual and relationship history is a given in any log term relationship or marriage. Is this right? I just figured everyone did it. I guess a lot of people hold stuff back, but I think if you just leave out the details and don't go into how good some person made you felt or how in love with someone you used to be, you'll be okay. I'm sure a little bit of jealousy if going to happen, but I think if you reassure your partner, praise them, dedicate yourself to them, and make sure you know how to please eachother in bed the way you both like it then you'll be fine and histories shouldn't matter. I guess a lot of that is easier said than done though.
Milan721 Posted July 22, 2008 Posted July 22, 2008 I want to have a great marriage, not just another story of hanging on in quiet desperation under a constant cloud of mystery about the person one supposedly shares a life with. Hey, I didn't give anyone permission to comment about MY marriage! Jk Honestly, to answer your question, "sharing" was definitely not "caring" in my situation. My husband wanted to know practically every detail from the first couple weeks of knowing him. It was actually a really weird and difficult thing to go through. My H was proud and apparently had nothing to hide of his adventures, all 24, no 25, oh wait there was that other chick, 26 sexual adventures (not including bj's just to be clear). I was (and still am) disgusted at the details. He said he was so honest because he wanted me to be honest. After much argument, I said alright and drudged up history that I'd rather forget. Anyway, long story short, it was one of the worst relationship experiences I've ever had. I do think that your experience is entirely different from mine. I can understand you wanting to know a few things about his past to figure out what's going on with him. And like you said, you weren't asking for details, so I don't see the harm. Maybe you thought there had been some greatly devastating love that caused him to fear sexual intimacy and have trust issues? After all these years, I'd want to get to the bottom of it too. Maybe he's secretly gay? Maybe there was abuse in his childhood? Whatever it is, I certainly wish you luck. There's nothing like being in a marriage and feeling lonelier than ever.
Milan721 Posted July 22, 2008 Posted July 22, 2008 I want to have a great marriage, not just another story of hanging on in quiet desperation under a constant cloud of mystery about the person one supposedly shares a life with. Hey, I didn't give anyone permission to comment about MY marriage! Jk Honestly, to answer your question, "sharing" was definitely not "caring" in my situation. My husband wanted to know practically every detail from the first couple weeks of knowing him. It was actually a really weird and difficult thing to go through. My H was proud and apparently had nothing to hide of his adventures, all 24, no 25, oh wait there was that other chick, 26 sexual adventures (not including bj's just to be clear). I was (and still am) disgusted at the details. He said he was so honest because he wanted me to be honest. After much argument, I said alright and drudged up history that I'd rather forget. Anyway, long story short, it was one of the worst relationship experiences I've ever had. I do think that your experience is entirely different from mine. I can understand you wanting to know a few things about his past to figure out what's going on with him. And like you said, you weren't asking for details, so I don't see the harm. Maybe you thought there had been some greatly devastating love that caused him to fear sexual intimacy and have trust issues? After all these years, I'd want to get to the bottom of it too. Maybe he's secretly gay? Maybe there was abuse in his childhood? Whatever it is, I certainly wish you luck. There's nothing like being in a marriage and feeling lonelier than ever.
Author luvstarved Posted July 22, 2008 Author Posted July 22, 2008 Just curious luvstarved, because you seem like such a thoughtful and analytical person. Didn't his circumstances seem like a warning sign to you ? Mr. Lucky Yes after a while but I was already very invested by then. We went out for almost 3 months before I met his parents. Anyway, I had my own warning signs...I had come off of the most devastating relationship of my life and had subsequently crawled into a bottle for a little over a year and became physically addicted to alcohol...I was a single mother in her 30s with two small biracial children, depressed...when I met him I had pulled myself out of that abyss but was none too optimistic about my romantic future. Then he came along looking like Superman (literally, he reminded me of Superman), handsome and built, didn't smoke, drink, gamble, womanize, lived a clean and upright life and was sooooo sincere and sweet and we really hit it off sexually for a long time...and he wanted me, and my kids. I thought I'd hit the frigging jackpot!!! And I am starting to think so again. He is really trying to overcome his s**t and I am trying to overcome mine. I DID think, why hasn't someone else snapped him up,and I DID think, why does he still live with his parents, etc...but...I had become so cynical thinking that I could only get people that I didn't want...that none of that mattered. And by the time I started to put together just how weird some of it was- we were engaged...and I still loved him, so what was I gonna do? Our pasts are very different (I left home at 17 and never looked back, for starters) and we have taken a few walks in hell trying to accept and understand each other...but through all this thoughtful analysis, we are making headway at last...I don't know if we'll make it, but a few months ago, I would have placed my bets much differently... I suggested to him that we use our counseling session tomorrow to talk about the sex article that our counselor sent to us...he said he thought that was a great idea and he was looking forward to it. I can't believe how far we've come in such a short time. We have a long way to go but I am almost giddy with hope right now. But...still...staying in reality...or trying to...we might get to counselor tomorrow and he'll clam up, but I have been working to get to this issue for so long that I am very excited at the prospect of another breakthrough...even the possibility is more than I've had for a long time..
Dark-N-Romantic Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 I personally only share such information with women I don't wish to keep. And since the only one I did not wish to keep was a woman who lied to me about her marital status, no other ex know about mine and I don't know about their's. Think about it like this, how many men and women would REALLY marry let alone have stayed with a boyfriend or girlfriend if they knew how many partners and activities they engaged in with? Would we REALLY be impressed to know the intimacy acts they are doing on us was done on someone else? Do you really want to have the conscious and subconscious idea all of these people are now making love to us. And what if he or she engaged in sexual acts we would find disgusting? Then, lets be honest, we are being compared to and comparing our current partners to old lovers. And what about the acts our partner want us to do that we reluctantly give into out of love? Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why they ask is because one or more of their past partners or other relations did it for him or her? I personally think you have set yourself up for even more disappointment and issues now that you know. I personally would of focused on the period of sexlessness. Just like you are going to a counselor now, that should be the major focus as to why. DNR
mental_traveller Posted July 27, 2008 Posted July 27, 2008 I think full disclosure is good - if you're on the same wavelength, it won't bother either of you. However I'd only do it with someone you really trust.
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