xCarmenx Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Hi all. Just seeking opinions on my situation, thanks Around three months ago, I got chatting to this guy online. He was really nice, caring, he was always there for me when I wanted to talk and helped me through some difficult times I was experiencing back then. It was also interesting to chat with him, because we are worlds apart, culturally, in lifestyle and traditions, so there is always something to talk about, something to learn from one another. He is Muslim, I am white and Christian, we both were born in and reside in the same country, though his roots lie in Saudi Arabia. Anyway, a few weeks went by and our email chats went to telephone calls. It was during one of these calls, that he mentioned he'd like to meet me and I'd agreed to meeting up one day, because he was someone that I could actually imagine meeting in real life. There are romantic feelings for one another also. Some things have come to bother me though. When he will call me on the phone, he calls me in secrecy, away from his family and friends. He says that his family know absolutely nothing about me and that if they knew about me, they would disown him. I feel bad for him and thinking that perhaps I should exit his life, to save all the trouble this could cause for him and his family. I tell him that he's a 32 year old man, he's adult enough to make up his own mind who he talks too and who he doesn't, but his family are very strict he says. He has also never mentioned me, to any of his friends. They would never accept me, unless I converted to Islam, then they would be ok in that situation. He says that if it ever came to marriage, he would make me wear a hijab, so that other men wouldn't look at me, that he would take me shopping and buy all of my clothes for me. That if there were children, they would be taught Islam - then he will laugh, say he's joking. But it gets me thinking?? Other things also bother me. Because I was in financial difficulties a while ago, he also wants to send me money to help me out. I tell him that I don't want his money and he becomes quite angry when I say I don't want money from him. I just find it a little odd, that a guy I've never met, wants to send money to me. He will tell me that if I need anything, he will provide it and send it to me. He seems to want to help me out and be involved in everything I do, he says he cares for me deeply, this is why he is, the way he is. He will also phone me over the course of a day, around 10 times and it is all becoming way too much for me. I'm supposed to be meeting him in two weeks time and I'm unsure at this point, whether to go ahead with this meeting. I want to meet him, but at same time, wondering what I am letting myself in for, if anything, if I do go along?
Enema Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 He would never deconvert from Islam. He would probably expect you to convert. Though he said he was joking, I doubt he would want his kids to be brought up as anything but muslims either. I reckon the request to wear a hijab would come shortly into the relationship too. Are you prepared to completely change yourself and your beliefs for this man? If not, then why pursue it further? I would have a serious discussion with him about exactly what he expects from you if you were to take it to the next level then decide from there.
sb129 Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 I would pull the pin now. To give the guy some credit, he has been very honest with you both about his religious beliefs and by showing you his true "colours" if you like. If you DO meet up with him you know exactly what you are getting yourself in for. Don't be fooled into thinking that he will change- he has been very clear about what he wants, and if you want to play that role, fine. If you don't, don't meet him.
Ronni_W Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 I do agree with E, except that it seems to me that he has already EXACTLY laid down the law of how it will be in your future. Maybe he said it in jest, but the content is 100% accurate of what is expected by his traditions, culture and religion. (He sounds orthodox Orthodox Muslim.) To my knowledge, it is much more than just "changing" who you are -- you will have to 'disappear' who you are and become something totally different. If you accept his money, he would see it as putting him in the position of having something 'over' you -- it would be the start of taking away your power/control. (That's a psychological thing, though, not restricted to a specific culture or belief system.) Maybe you could search the 'Net for articles/info/stories on women who have converted, to get a clearer picture before you meet him in person?
Author xCarmenx Posted July 17, 2008 Author Posted July 17, 2008 He would never deconvert from Islam. He would probably expect you to convert. Wouldn't expect him too deconvert and he has said that he wouldn't xpect me to convert BUT, I'd never be accepted by his family if I didn't and I just couldn't see a relationship going very far, if there were family clashes and I wouldn't want there to be any falling outs, between him and his family. I don't know a great deal about Islam and what I have read on the web, I don't know whether to believe, because on one site I visited, it said that if a Muslim guy goes outside of his religion and his family are not happy, they could have him killed...I mean, is this true? Or just hyped up crap? Some things I'm reading are frightening and it's just making me wonder whether I should go ahead and meet him, or not and I feel bad over having these doubts because he is a nice guy and he seems to be so looking forward to our meeting.
Lyssa Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 BUT, I'd never be accepted by his family if I didn't and I just couldn't see a relationship going very far It will definitely not work out if his family wouldn't accept you - Saudi Arabians are the strictest Muslims compared to others. It rarely works out between Saudi Arabians and Christians/other religion.
Ronni_W Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 on one site I visited, it said that if a Muslim guy goes outside of his religion and his family are not happy, they could have him killed... You're right that you'll need to be extremely vigilant about where you do your research. But. More often it is the woman that is 'punished' by whichever means -- whether she be Muslim or Christian doesn't make the difference. Possibly search "sharia law". You can also visit a local mosque, perhaps, and speak with a cleric. He would have no reason to sugarcoat things, and every reason to "give it to you straight". Or a local Muslim Community Centre would have accurate information.
JustinWolf Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Okay, I know muslim. The killing thing is a bit exhagerated but it can be true in some cases. That's when the family is totally crazy and all. I mean, he's 32 and he's afraid of his family and all, I'm guessing they won't kill him but he's not in a good condition if was caught calling you or anything. There is something really bothering me in all of this, from my pov I don't see why he should have to hide you from his friends. Most of my muslim friends are ready to be with other women and all in front of their families and even in some cases going against their families because they love the person. The rules he's on are way too strict for a muslim man. I have a bad hunch about this whole affair. A seriously bad hunch, like something really itchy on my back. The more I think about it, the more it seems weird to me. I mean my muslim friends don't have that issue. They talk openly with me and their other friends, even some of their cousins about their relationships with christian, atheist women.... Think about it carefully.
Trialbyfire Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 I would pull the pin now. To give the guy some credit, he has been very honest with you both about his religious beliefs and by showing you his true "colours" if you like. If you DO meet up with him you know exactly what you are getting yourself in for. Don't be fooled into thinking that he will change- he has been very clear about what he wants, and if you want to play that role, fine. If you don't, don't meet him. Yup, a 32 year-old man who's afraid of his own family enough that he would hide a few harmless phone calls? Do you hear the cautionary sirens whooping yet?
JustinWolf Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Yup, a 32 year-old man who's afraid of his own family enough that he would hide a few harmless phone calls? Do you hear the cautionary sirens whooping yet? The thing is, he's not a kid anymore to be afraid and it's time for him to be starting his own family and making his OWN choices in life. I'm surprised that he would even hide the phonecalls. Maybe his parents I would understand since they are from Saudi Arabia and they are very strict over there but hiding it from his friends is a big whoopsy doopsy from his part because his friends are living in the same country as you and him so they have the same culture as the country they are in. Meaning, they must understand the whole concept of dating and all and it's not for them to judge if he should even be making those calls or not. Friends are there to support you through most decisions. I want to know why he wouldn't tell his friends. He's lacking guts if he can't even tell his parents and friends about you. I know that as a muslim man I would still tell my friends, my parents maybe a bit later in the relationship but it would come out eventually and I wouldn't be scared. BALLS.
Trialbyfire Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 The thing is, he's not a kid anymore to be afraid and it's time for him to be starting his own family and making his OWN choices in life. I'm surprised that he would even hide the phonecalls. Maybe his parents I would understand since they are from Saudi Arabia and they are very strict over there but hiding it from his friends is a big whoopsy doopsy from his part because his friends are living in the same country as you and him so they have the same culture as the country they are in. Meaning, they must understand the whole concept of dating and all and it's not for them to judge if he should even be making those calls or not. Friends are there to support you through most decisions. I want to know why he wouldn't tell his friends. He's lacking guts if he can't even tell his parents and friends about you. I know that as a muslim man I would still tell my friends, my parents maybe a bit later in the relationship but it would come out eventually and I wouldn't be scared. BALLS. True. The flipside is that maybe he has good reason to hide her, regardless of culture. The whole thing sounds fishy...period...
Author xCarmenx Posted July 17, 2008 Author Posted July 17, 2008 Well he's NOT married as far as I am aware, if that is what you are getting at. He was married at aged 18, arranged marriage, he has two children and they seperated two years ago! I know he's not with her, because he has complained that he doesn't see his kids as often as he'd like too, because she won't let him and her family interfere a lot... As for his friends, they are all Muslims. He talks about me, with only one of his friends, he says, who is his main friend and the friend he can trust the most.
Author xCarmenx Posted July 17, 2008 Author Posted July 17, 2008 The thing is, he's not a kid anymore to be afraid and it's time for him to be starting his own family and making his OWN choices in life. I'm surprised that he would even hide the phonecalls. Maybe his parents I would understand since they are from Saudi Arabia and they are very strict over there but hiding it from his friends is a big whoopsy doopsy from his part because his friends are living in the same country as you and him so they have the same culture as the country they are in. Meaning, they must understand the whole concept of dating and all and it's not for them to judge if he should even be making those calls or not. Friends are there to support you through most decisions. I want to know why he wouldn't tell his friends. He's lacking guts if he can't even tell his parents and friends about you. I know that as a muslim man I would still tell my friends, my parents maybe a bit later in the relationship but it would come out eventually and I wouldn't be scared. BALLS. Well thing is, we havn't met for real yet, we have only communicated by mail, text and phon calls, seen numerous pics, etc, etc, so neither of us really know at this point where the relationship is headed and until we meet... Maybe if it leads to something really serious, then he'd have to pluck up the courage to let his parents know about me. But he has said his dad is VERY strict, his mother, not as strict as the father, his mother is half Afghan/Saudi Arabian. He and his father apparantly do not get along all that well and at the moment, he is living with his sister....she doesn't know about me either.
JustinWolf Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Well he's NOT married as far as I am aware, if that is what you are getting at. He was married at aged 18, arranged marriage, he has two children and they seperated two years ago! I know he's not with her, because he has complained that he doesn't see his kids as often as he'd like too, because she won't let him and her family interfere a lot... As for his friends, they are all Muslims. He talks about me, with only one of his friends, he says, who is his main friend and the friend he can trust the most. See, this makes a little bit more sense. The arranged marriage doesn't surprise me at all, in fact I saw it coming a mile away. But I didn't think of marriage, when I said something smells fishy. It's something else... I just can't put my mind on it, I can't seem to be able to grasp it neither. The friend thing, let's say he told one of his friends because he trusts him the most so this closes that issue. Now the parent issue... He's 32, I'm guessing his parents are like... really old. I don't see why he would be scared of them. The worst they could do to him is him getting beat up with an old wooden cane. If I had something for a woman I'd definately take the beating for her, who care they say love stands through anything... Let's hope my back can stand a few wooden cane strikes lol jk. Seriously though, he shouldn't be scared of his parents not at this age, that is. Also, if marriage was a problem and it may have occured to me, I don't see what's the problem now because in fact, now he has more advantage over what his parents could say to him to back down. He could say "You decided for me once and now I can't even see my children, I'm making my own decision now. I'm going for MY HAPPINESS and as my PARENTS you ought to encourage me." It's weird because I know that eventually I'm going to be with a woman and maybe my parents would not approve of her but I would let them know what I think and I wouldn't be scared because I'd tell them eye to eye and tell them how happy the person makes me... unless his parents don't give a *bleep* about him. Again, BALLS. Edit: Damn, i just read your reply. Ok I see where this is headed now. Perhaps you should talk to him about it. See where it leads you but you do realise that when he talked about the kids, the hijab and all, he was probably serious because it's a part of his culture and in those countries it's really hard to get that part of the culture outta your system.
Author xCarmenx Posted July 17, 2008 Author Posted July 17, 2008 See, this makes a little bit more sense. The arranged marriage doesn't surprise me at all, in fact I saw it coming a mile away. But I didn't think of marriage, when I said something smells fishy. It's something else... I just can't put my mind on it, I can't seem to be able to grasp it neither. The friend thing, let's say he told one of his friends because he trusts him the most so this closes that issue. Now the parent issue... He's 32, I'm guessing his parents are like... really old. I don't see why he would be scared of them. The worst they could do to him is him getting beat up with an old wooden cane. If I had something for a woman I'd definately take the beating for her, who care they say love stands through anything... Let's hope my back can stand a few wooden cane strikes lol jk. Seriously though, he shouldn't be scared of his parents not at this age, that is. Also, if marriage was a problem and it may have occured to me, I don't see what's the problem now because in fact, now he has more advantage over what his parents could say to him to back down. He could say "You decided for me once and now I can't even see my children, I'm making my own decision now. I'm going for MY HAPPINESS and as my PARENTS you ought to encourage me." It's weird because I know that eventually I'm going to be with a woman and maybe my parents would not approve of her but I would let them know what I think and I wouldn't be scared because I'd tell them eye to eye and tell them how happy the person makes me... unless his parents don't give a *bleep* about him. I see, so you are hoping to be with someone, you havn't yet told your parents about?? LOL Is she a Christian then, if you don't mind my being nosy Damn, i just read your reply. Ok I see where this is headed now. Perhaps you should talk to him about it. See where it leads you but you do realise that when he talked about the kids, the hijab and all, he was probably serious because it's a part of his culture and in those countries it's really hard to get that part of the culture outta your system. Yes but, he wasn't brought up in an Islamic country. We are both in the UK and he was born here, so he's been westernised, lol. But still, his parents were both born in Islamic countries and I'm guessing that perhaps they came to UK, a few years back and settled here, but they will still live strictly by the culture they were born and brought up in and they likely have brought up him and his brothers and sisters, same way they were. As for kids, well yeah, he would probably want them to follow Islamic faith and to be honest, I don't think I'd see that as a problem. It would be same as if I'd met a Catholic man and he wanted the children to be Catholic, well....I'd go along with it. Wearing a hijab, I would see a problem, lol...but he jokes when he mentions that. Guess I won't know the *real* him, unless we met.
JustinWolf Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Yes I was going to suggest you go ahead with the meeting. As for the whole hijab thing, if you see that you and him is going to work out then tell him you aren't going to wear it. As for the kids, I'd say they should choose for themselves when they grow older... something tells me they will go towards the christian religion though. As for him growing up there... I find it funny because even though his parents kept the Saudi ways of thinking, right now in saudi arabia those ways of thinking have evolved. And talking about me, I don't have a girl right now but I've been with girls who were from different religions and it never bothered me. It's funny because today I was walking with my mother and I told her that I had girlfriends in the past and I will have more and probably one day settle. She did mind me saying that but what can she do? hehe, you take care of yourself.
sb129 Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Yes but, he wasn't brought up in an Islamic country. We are both in the UK and he was born here, so he's been westernised, lol. But still, his parents were both born in Islamic countries and I'm guessing that perhaps they came to UK, a few years back and settled here, but they will still live strictly by the culture they were born and brought up in and they likely have brought up him and his brothers and sisters, same way they were. Doesn't really matter that he wasn't brought up in an Islamic country- Muslim culture is still pretty strong in many communities here. There have been enough honour killings to prove that. Its a shame really, it must be tough sometimes if you are so caught between two different cultures.
Author xCarmenx Posted July 17, 2008 Author Posted July 17, 2008 As for the kids, I'd say they should choose for themselves when they grow older... something tells me they will go towards the christian religion though. Well, it will be odd not being able to celebrate the like of Christmas. I mean, I've always celebrated Christmas, I love Christmas, it's my favourite time of year and it would be strange for me not to be able to give Christmas presents and such to any future children I may have, as I give them to other members of my family But yes, I too think that children can choose for themselves when they grow up. I read one story on the web, where there was a Muslim father and Christian mother and their kids get to celebrate both Muslim and Christian traditions...the like of Eid, along with Christmas too. Following this, could help children decide, which faith they did want to follow when older. hehe, you take care of yourself. You too and thanks for your input, very much appreciated
sb129 Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 The thing is, yes, kids can choose and all that when they are adults, but your guy doesn't sound very flexible about discussing options like that. He has made it pretty clear about what he wants and how he wants things to go. Which is his way..
Author xCarmenx Posted July 17, 2008 Author Posted July 17, 2008 Doesn't really matter that he wasn't brought up in an Islamic country- Muslim culture is still pretty strong in many communities here. There have been enough honour killings to prove that. Are you in the UK too? Yeah, I know that muslim culture is still pretty strong here and I think that's basically down to the fact, that Muslim people born here, are mostly the second generation of Muslims in this country, the first being their parents, who were not born here, but who came here a few years ago. Future generations, third, fourth and fifth, may not be as strong a community, as they are now. But meantime, yes, they are strong communities and he's from Yorkshire, which is a heavily populated area of Muslims with lots of Asian communities. Its a shame really, it must be tough sometimes if you are so caught between two different cultures. Not so much the culture, it's the caught up between religions. Personally I just don't see why, people can't get along and be more tolerant and accepting....end of the day, we are all human beings, we should treat each other like them
mental_traveller Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Wouldn't expect him too deconvert and he has said that he wouldn't xpect me to convert BUT, I'd never be accepted by his family if I didn't and I just couldn't see a relationship going very far, if there were family clashes and I wouldn't want there to be any falling outs, between him and his family. I don't know a great deal about Islam and what I have read on the web, I don't know whether to believe, because on one site I visited, it said that if a Muslim guy goes outside of his religion and his family are not happy, they could have him killed...I mean, is this true? Or just hyped up crap? Some things I'm reading are frightening and it's just making me wonder whether I should go ahead and meet him, or not and I feel bad over having these doubts because he is a nice guy and he seems to be so looking forward to our meeting. A woman has to convert to Islam to marry a practising Muslim man, otherwise the marriage won't be recognised under the religion. Regarding abandoning the religion, the penalty in most Muslim countries for apostasy is death, this is also in the Koran. So yes, people take it seriously, it's not just hype. In my opinion, you do not know much if anything about Islam, so it would be crazy for you to get involved with this guy. There is a huge culture clash with western values if he is a practising orthodox Muslim. It's not like he's some secular westernised guy whose background is Muslim but who doesn't really follow the religion. He is serious about it and so you would basically lose your identity if you married him. I think you would be nuts to get involved with him, you should split now.
Author xCarmenx Posted July 17, 2008 Author Posted July 17, 2008 The thing is, yes, kids can choose and all that when they are adults, but your guy doesn't sound very flexible about discussing options like that. He has made it pretty clear about what he wants and how he wants things to go. Which is his way.. Well he may want things his way, but I also like things my way too....which also might cause a problem for *him*... lol. He might not like my strongly opinionated side
sb129 Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Yes, I am here. In London, but I have lived in Yorkshire, and to be honest, there isn't alot of integration between Muslim communities and other cultures up there. (Maybe there is in Leeds, but not really in the other major towns). Lets, for arguments sake, say you guys met up and started a R. If you wanted it to continue, one of you would have to move. I doubt it would be him. From my limited knowledge of Yorkshire Muslim communities, you would find it quite a culture shock. There would be certain expectations of you that you can't even comprehend living the single free life you live now. I know young Muslim women who have grown up in this environment who find it hard, let alone someone who hasn't. I get what you mean about being tolerant and accepting, and there is that to a degree in this country, however that doesn't necessarily mean that you would embrace his culture 100% no questions asked and be blissfully happy. I have a good friend who was with a Muslim guy from the middle east for a number of years, he was pretty open minded and at the end of the day it was the distance that ended their R, not the culture difference. There are just a few things that your guy has flagged up very early on that aren't going to change, and while the idea of them may not seem so bad now, the reality of them (esp when he seems to have quite a strong personality that isn't very open to compromise) may not be the fairytale of "cultures living in harmony side by side" that you think it could be.
mental_traveller Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 I see, so you are hoping to be with someone, you havn't yet told your parents about?? LOL Is she a Christian then, if you don't mind my being nosy Yes but, he wasn't brought up in an Islamic country. We are both in the UK and he was born here, so he's been westernised, lol. But still, his parents were both born in Islamic countries and I'm guessing that perhaps they came to UK, a few years back and settled here, but they will still live strictly by the culture they were born and brought up in and they likely have brought up him and his brothers and sisters, same way they were. As for kids, well yeah, he would probably want them to follow Islamic faith and to be honest, I don't think I'd see that as a problem. It would be same as if I'd met a Catholic man and he wanted the children to be Catholic, well....I'd go along with it. Wearing a hijab, I would see a problem, lol...but he jokes when he mentions that. Guess I won't know the *real* him, unless we met. Being brought up in the west doesn't make you westernised. Look at orthadox Jews, Amish people etc. It is quite possible to have a very strict traditionalist outlook even if you grew up in San Franciso or London and went to a religious orthadox school, your family indoctrinated you etc. What matters is the signs he is giving off, which is that he is from a very strict background and believes in it himself. The fact that you haven't even met is just icing on the cake - why get involved with someone so different, whose beliefs are hostile to your own freedom and self interest? We're not talking about the Salman Rushdie type of liberal Muslim here.
sb129 Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Well he may want things his way, but I also like things my way too....which also might cause a problem for *him*... lol. He might not like my strongly opinionated side This just highlights to me how little you know about this man and how much his culture and religion influences his personality. If you convert to Islam, you will have to suppress that part of your personality because you will be required to be submissive to your husband. The Qu'uran doesn't specifically say that although it alludes to it very strongly in many places, however most staunch Muslims in this country (of which it sounds your man is one, esp if he won't tell his family about you) do believe it.
Recommended Posts