Tomcat33 Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Seriously!! This is getting ridiculous, a person posted questions about suicide attempts I chimed in to dispell some common misconceptions a lot of people tend to have on the subject since what a person does and why he/she does it when they attempt suicide is not carved in stone, and some go all up in a huff making claims that are not true about my intentions? My only intention is to paint a clear picture on suicide, if you missed that too bad for you. There ARE variations to the why's and hows. But the main thing is to never take it lightly, manipulation or not, it is a cry out and if you care you should not dismiss that. As per one person getting offended because I said this, well that's your problem not mine. No one is trying to take anything away from your experience I am just expanding and counterbalancing your experience to the reality of what others go through so that people can get a broader picture about suicide. And that is taking NOTHING away from your experience it is just adding to it a different prespective in the hopes to educate those that don't know about it. If you have a problem with that (and you know who you are) TOUGH cookies. I take this topic very seriously and it really bothers me when closed minded views paint a picture that is just not true for everyone. Skepticism is fine, but there is no room to speculate when someone reaches out for help, one second could cost someone their life. And I understand that each individual is entitled to when "they check" out but if it were your son/daughter reaching out I am sure you would be so laid back in saying "a person is responsible for when they want to check out" or whatever the phrase was.
serial muse Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 And I understand that each individual is entitled to when "they check" out but if it were your son/daughter reaching out I am sure you would be so laid back in saying "a person is responsible for when they want to check out" or whatever the phrase was. Given her personal experiences, however, which she was pretty up-front about, I thought it was clear she was referring to herself. I don't know; I respect your experience with teens and I'm sure you were a lifeline to many people, but silk said very clearly "speaking from my own experience," "I think," "I just have a hard time believing" and so forth. These are not unequivocal statements describing everyone's experience of suicidal thoughts. She made it clear in each post that it's her opinion and experience informing her words, and also made it clear that suicidal thoughts should never be taken lightly - in the very same posts. I admit, I did think it was a bit cruel to tell her she knows little about suicide shortly after she confessed that she herself had attempted it twice. She knows enough to tell her viewpoint, which is certainly valid, particularly since she made it clear it was her personal viewpoint. I was surprised that you took her up so harshly insteading of hearing her out.
Lookingforward Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Sadly, the ones who know the MOST about suicide and the feelings, emotions, likelihood of success etc are no longer with us to impart their knowledge (my baby bro being one of them)
luvmy2ns Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Sadly, the ones who know the MOST about suicide and the feelings, emotions, likelihood of success etc are no longer with us to impart their knowledge (my baby bro being one of them) I'm sorry about your baby brother, LF.
luvmy2ns Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 I lost a cousin that way and, though he was a close cousin, it would be much harder to deal with losing a sibling, I'm sure.
Tomcat33 Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Given her personal experiences, however, which she was pretty up-front about, I thought it was clear she was referring to herself. I don't know; I respect your experience with teens and I'm sure you were a lifeline to many people, but silk said very clearly "speaking from my own experience," "I think," "I just have a hard time believing" and so forth. These are not unequivocal statements describing everyone's experience of suicidal thoughts. She made it clear in each post that it's her opinion and experience informing her words, and also made it clear that suicidal thoughts should never be taken lightly - in the very same posts. I admit, I did think it was a bit cruel to tell her she knows little about suicide shortly after she confessed that she herself had attempted it twice. She knows enough to tell her viewpoint, which is certainly valid, particularly since she made it clear it was her personal viewpoint. I was surprised that you took her up so harshly insteading of hearing her out. This is what I said: You are well misinformed about suicide and the different thought processes that happen to each individual when contemplating suicide. There is nothing cruel about saying to her that she is misinformed about suicide, she may know what SHE felt when she did it but that doesn't mean EVEYONE feels that way. Not everyone will resort to suicide for the reasons she expressed. I respect her personal experience I reapeat, for the UMPTEENTH time that I am not trying to take away from her experience, her experience is very real and I certainly embrace it. But that simply does not account for how EVERYONE feels. So to say "I just have a really hard time believing that the idea of hurting someone else would lead to actual suicide" is to be misinformed, and quite frankly I find that quite dismissive of other's feelings. I pointed that out because I have heard the many reasons people try to take their lives and some people are so angry at their loved ones they want to hurt them in that particlar manner. So it is not far fetched at all. In her comment she technically also denegrated those people who seriously feel they need to take their lives to hurt those who are hurting them. See? I could say, I went to France and I hated it. The whole place stunk. I cannot imagine anyone EVER wanting to visit that place willingly twice. Then you can say to me "well that may be your experience or opinion but you are misiniformed about France and what a lot of people think about it because plenty people want to go there two, three, even five times after they have been once." There is nothing cruel about you telling somoene "yes your experience is valid but not everyone shares in your particular experience" especially when we are talking about something as delicate as suicide., It's not like we are debating the taste of chocolate, you know?
Lookingforward Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Thanks for the condolences guys, it was many years ago now - but a family missed seeing a great 21 year old grow up. all over some stupid female I don't think my mother ever really got over losing her youngest child and only boy (my father had passed by then)
Tomcat33 Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Sadly, the ones who know the MOST about suicide and the feelings, emotions, likelihood of success etc are no longer with us to impart their knowledge (my baby bro being one of them) Very true LF, I am so sorry for your loss. That is so sad, even what you told about your mom Having talked to two people in particular who did it and failed I can say the rationalle behind it is so particular to each individual you couldn't even draw a parallel. It is just so hard to peg as "it is this" or "that" but most definitely pain is the unerlying source.
silktricks Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Sadly, the ones who know the MOST about suicide and the feelings, emotions, likelihood of success etc are no longer with us to impart their knowledge (my baby bro being one of them) I lost a cousin that way and, though he was a close cousin, it would be much harder to deal with losing a sibling, I'm sure. I'm very sorry to hear of your losses and the pain I'm sure you still feel around them. I hope your futures are happy. I don't know what your beliefs are but hopefully they are both now at peace.
luvmy2ns Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 I'm very sorry to hear of your losses and the pain I'm sure you still feel around them. I hope your futures are happy. I don't know what your beliefs are but hopefully they are both now at peace. Thanks, ST, and in my cousin's case, it was a damn woman too! But his head was all f'd up as he'd been doing drugs as well. So, so sad.
herenow Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 How sad that anyone would be so fed up with life that suicide is a better option. I do feel for anyone that has been touch by that kind of tragedy. Interestingly, in our case, it was the OW that had these issues. She actually went to the emergency room and called my H implying that she had done something to herself. He told her to call a family member and she got angry and left the hospital because in fact there was nothing wrong with her. Even though we knew she was using the threat of suicide as a manipulation tactic, we also knew that she was unstable. Because of this we were very careful in how we dealt with her. Together with out therapist, we found the best way to make sure she left us alone and didn't "go over the edge". It took a while, but it did work.
silktricks Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 I was not going to post more on this thread, but did feel the need to respond here: There is nothing cruel about you telling somoene "yes your experience is valid but not everyone shares in your particular experience" especially when we are talking about something as delicate as suicide., And had you said that my experience was valid but not everyone shared in my particular experience, that would have come across to me quite differently. What you did say was that I was ""well misinformed about suicide and the different thought processes that happen" Then in a later post you said "you are making a HUGE overstatement of how suicide happens" These statements were made after I had just said that I had attempted it twice, and I thought I was being fairly obvious that I was speaking of my experience and my thought processes at the time. Perhaps I was not though, because frankly, I was stunned at what I felt was your callous disregard for what had happened to me and what I had gone through. I understand that you wanted to make a point about the importance of responding to any threat of suicide. What I can only assume that you didn't understand of my posts is that I am in TOTAL AGREEMENT with that thought. I also don't have the experience in dealing with suicidal teens that you do, so it's possible that I came across to you as callous toward the people you have helped. That was not my intention. The fact is that I do have a hard time believing that a person will suicide simply to hurt someone else. I believe there is more involved - probably a lot more - and to believe that nothing more than anger towards their loved ones is the cause is, I think, a simplistic approach to a much more complex problem. Also, due to your background you are coming from the point of suicide amongst teens. I was not. I was coming from the point of suicide in mature adults. I do believe that each person has the right to end their own life if that is their choice. I am and will forever be glad that my husband intervened and took the choice away from me. But, I nonetheless do believe that it was my choice.
D-Lish Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Wow, this is a sad situation. I do know that if they didn't take her attempt seriously- they wouldn't have admitted her for more than a day of observation. All suicide attempts need to be taken seriously. It is well documented that some people "try" suicide on a couple times before finally following through. Can't say if this is the case here... but their is obviously some deep despair she is experiencing, and that shouldn't be ignored- even if it is an attempt at manipulating the situation. Believe me- neither you or her H want to be put in a position where she actually does suceed in harming herself- nothing could ever be the same for any of you... that is why you should take it seriously-even if you believe it to be a manipulation. If she's threatening it- she's unstable... and you can't predict the lengths an unstable person will go to when they are desperate. It must be a confusing and frustrating situation for all of you. Both of you want to be with this man- and both of you see the other as obstacles to getting what you want. Your MM on the other hand wants to be with the woman he loves- but I am sure he doesn't want to see his W and family hurt or dismantled as a result of him loving you. You MM has to deal with this situation- it's probably best you not be involved directly. You don't want her anger and hatred toward you to be her focus....
Tomcat33 Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 And had you said that my experience was valid but not everyone shared in my particular experience, that would have come across to me quite differently. Ok so let me say it now then, your experience IS valid. These statements were made after I had just said that I had attempted it twice, and I thought I was being fairly obvious that I was speaking of my experience and my thought processes at the time. Perhaps I was not though, because frankly, I was stunned at what I felt was your callous disregard for what had happened to me and what I had gone through. Like I have already explained a few times, I was not trying to devalue YOUR experience and I explained this to you right away. I was pointing out that your experience is one of many variations. That is not dismissing your personal experience it is offering a wider outlook at the spectrum. And I only offered this notion because you said that you didn't believe a person could want to take their life to spite others. I understand that you wanted to make a point about the importance of responding to any threat of suicide. What I can only assume that you didn't understand of my posts is that I am in TOTAL AGREEMENT with that thought. I also don't have the experience in dealing with suicidal teens that you do, so it's possible that I came across to you as callous toward the people you have helped. That was not my intention. Well you see how that happens? The fact is that I do have a hard time believing that a person will suicide simply to hurt someone else. I believe there is more involved - probably a lot more - and to believe that nothing more than anger towards their loved ones is the cause is, I think, a simplistic approach to a much more complex problem. Also, due to your background you are coming from the point of suicide amongst teens. I was not. I was coming from the point of suicide in mature adults. I do believe that each person has the right to end their own life if that is their choice. I am and will forever be glad that my husband intervened and took the choice away from me. But, I nonetheless do believe that it was my choice. You see you are doing it again, you are dismissing others by making a statement like "they are teens" not adults and their lack of maturity should be taken into account, but you fail to see that they are still human and they feel pain in varying degrees so much so that they would rather check out than stick around and see it through. How is that any different than what you may have been feeling as an adult? I am getting you feel a teen is not really someone who can determine personal pain due to lack of maturity?!?!? Dismissing other's reasons for wanting to check out only reinforcess the worthlessness a person who is suicidal is already feeling. You seem to have some preconceived notions and that's normal, a lot of people do. Again, you must not have children because I just can't wrap my head around this concept that it is a "personal choice" to check out. If you had a loved one in this situation would you honestly think "oh well it is THEIR life and they are entitled to do with it as they please" because if so that is a surefire way to reinforce to someone that their life is indeed wortheless. Of course it was your choice, but if people around were able to see the worth in your life when you were not able to see it yourself, it was really good that they stuck it out and helped you see it. I know right now you must be thanking the heavens that people who truly cared about you insisted you do not practice your power of choice in favour of ending your life. I don't really get what your comment of "I do believe it was my choice"? means
silktricks Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Ok so let me say it now then, your experience IS valid. Thank-you. You see you are doing it again, you are dismissing others by making a statement like "they are teens" not adults and their lack of maturity should be taken into account, but you fail to see that they are still human and they feel pain in varying degrees so much so that they would rather check out than stick around and see it through. How is that any different than what you may have been feeling as an adult? I am getting you feel a teen is not really someone who can determine personal pain due to lack of maturity?!?!? That was neither my intention nor my meaning. What I meant was that I do not have the experience with teenage suicide that you do. The statement I made had NOTHING to do with the pain they were in. In many respects I believe that teenagers have a much deeper response to pain than do mature adults, and as a result are quite possibly even probably more at risk. I also do not mean the word mature to mean anything other than more advanced age. I believe I have read that the most common ages for suicide are the young and the very old. But as I've said before my opinions are formed from my experiences both in the suicide process and the therapy, both individual and group afterwards. I do not pretend to have experience with a vast range of people. Dismissing other's reasons for wanting to check out only reinforcess the worthlessness a person who is suicidal is already feeling. You seem to have some preconceived notions and that's normal, a lot of people do. I did not dismiss anyone's reasons for commiting suicide. I spoke only of the differences of your and my point of view. That was in no way intended to be a dismissal of anyone. Again, you must not have children because I just can't wrap my head around this concept that it is a "personal choice" to check out. If you had a loved one in this situation would you honestly think "oh well it is THEIR life and they are entitled to do with it as they please" because if so that is a surefire way to reinforce to someone that their life is indeed wortheless. There is a stark difference between my view towards my own life and my view towards the life of another. I believe deeply that I am the only person who truly has the decision as to whether I live or die. They on the other hand had better stick around or I'm going to track 'em down and beat 'em up!! Am I glad that I wasn't succesful? Damn straight. I'm absolutely overjoyed I wasn't. Does it mean that sometime in some unknown future I may suicide? I could, but it would probably only occur if I was diagnosed with something like Alzheimer's or some other incurable disease that would bankrupt my family to care for me. But it would be my choice, no one elses. Of course it was your choice, but if people around were able to see the worth in your life when you were not able to see it yourself, it was really good that they stuck it out and helped you see it. I know right now you must be thanking the heavens that people who truly cared about you insisted you do not practice your power of choice in favour of ending your life. I don't really get what your comment of "I do believe it was my choice"? means In other words, I am an advocate of assisted suicide.
Tomcat33 Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Thank-you. you're welcome. That was neither my intention nor my meaning. What I meant was that I do not have the experience with teenage suicide that you do. The statement I made had NOTHING to do with the pain they were in. In many respects I believe that teenagers have a much deeper response to pain than do mature adults, and as a result are quite possibly even probably more at risk. I also do not mean the word mature to mean anything other than more advanced age. Cool. I misunderstood what you meant then thanks for explaining that. I believe I have read that the most common ages for suicide are the young and the very old. But as I've said before my opinions are formed from my experiences both in the suicide process and the therapy, both individual and group afterwards. I do not pretend to have experience with a vast range of people I did not dismiss anyone's reasons for commiting suicide. I spoke only of the differences of your and my point of view. That was in no way intended to be a dismissal of anyone. Ok I am glad we came to an understanding, because we were definitely crossing cables. There is a stark difference between my view towards my own life and my view towards the life of another. I believe deeply that I am the only person who truly has the decision as to whether I live or die. They on the other hand had better stick around or I'm going to track 'em down and beat 'em up!! Am I glad that I wasn't succesful? Damn straight. I'm absolutely overjoyed I wasn't. Does it mean that sometime in some unknown future I may suicide? I could, but it would probably only occur if I was diagnosed with something like Alzheimer's or some other incurable disease that would bankrupt my family to care for me. But it would be my choice, no one elses. That one made me laugh out loud. You are SO "selfish" Well call me selfish too because I am really glad you chose to stick around. In other words, I am an advocate of assisted suicide. I think I am with you on that but only if the person is suffering from a terminal disease, I think it would be horrible to see a loved one suffering begging you to please let them go and to keep them in that state of suffering. A real moral dilema!! On the other hand I saw this story on CNN of this young guy that had an accident and was in a coma and had been in a vegetative state for a few years. The doctors had told the parents that he was completely dead and they had decided to pull the plug, I can't remember exactly but I think they were planning his funeral and they were pretty much ready to let him go and he either moved a limb or something that gave sign that he was responding and he was indeed conscious. In fact the kid was telling Larry King that he was conscious the whole time all the doctors would asses him throughout a big part of his coma. Can you imagine? I hear freak stories like that and it just reminds me of how insignificant we really are in the hands of the powers that be. When god has a plan for us who are we to tamper with that?
silktricks Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Thank-you. Well call me selfish too because I am really glad you chose to stick around. Thank-you (I am too!) I think I am with you on that but only if the person is suffering from a terminal disease, I think it would be horrible to see a loved one suffering begging you to please let them go and to keep them in that state of suffering. A real moral dilema!! On the other hand I saw this story on CNN of this young guy that had an accident and was in a coma and had been in a vegetative state for a few years. The doctors had told the parents that he was completely dead and they had decided to pull the plug, I can't remember exactly but I think they were planning his funeral and they were pretty much ready to let him go and he either moved a limb or something that gave sign that he was responding and he was indeed conscious. In fact the kid was telling Larry King that he was conscious the whole time all the doctors would asses him throughout a big part of his coma. Can you imagine? I hear freak stories like that and it just reminds me of how insignificant we really are in the hands of the powers that be. When god has a plan for us who are we to tamper with that? Oh my - how traumatic would THAT have been. But - you are right - it is a moral dilemma. I think I continue to stress personal choice, primarily because I don't want some faceless government official to have the power - in either direction - to decide one must stay -- or even worse to have the power to decide that anyone's life is no longer useful enough to keep around.
cjanee Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 I agree with Tomcat.. You are very misinformed. Speaking from experience of being the other woman and a suicide intervention counselor I can tell you that your lack of compassion in this situation is very disturbing. It seems to me that you and the OW need some serious help! You for not seeing the damage,dishonesty and self destruction with this family and your part in that and her for A)being the victim in the situation B) knowing the truth and not able to deal, i.e, coping strategies which she very likely does not have. Answer me this? If she does this again and dies what will you be saying then? Can you live with that? This is not about her keeping him away from you. She is too involved in her own pain for that. This is about not knowing how to cope. If she was manipulating him then she would not want to take a chance with her life! She would want to be alive so she could continue to plot ways to keep him from you. If she is no longer alive you win. So this talk about her keeping him from you doesn't even make sense does it?
Lookingforward Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 I agree with Tomcat.. You are very misinformed. Speaking from experience of being the other woman and a suicide intervention counselor I can tell you that your lack of compassion in this situation is very disturbing. It seems to me that you and the OW need some serious help! You for not seeing the damage,dishonesty and self destruction with this family and your part in that and her for A)being the victim in the situation B) knowing the truth and not able to deal, i.e, coping strategies which she very likely does not have. Answer me this? If she does this again and dies what will you be saying then? Can you live with that? This is not about her keeping him away from you. She is too involved in her own pain for that. This is about not knowing how to cope. If she was manipulating him then she would not want to take a chance with her life! She would want to be alive so she could continue to plot ways to keep him from you. If she is no longer alive you win. So this talk about her keeping him from you doesn't even make sense does it? Ultimately whether one suicides or not is a personal choice and others cannot be held liable for that decision........ good try though
cjanee Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 Of course no one is responsible for someone's act of suicide but we all have to live with the consequences of our OWN actions. If it were me I would not be comfortable knowing I had a part in the break up of another persons marriage or family.
OWoman Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 I agree with Tomcat.. You are very misinformed. Speaking from experience of being the other woman and a suicide intervention counselor I can tell you that your lack of compassion in this situation is very disturbing. It seems to me that you and the OW need some serious help! You for not seeing the damage,dishonesty and self destruction with this family and your part in that and her for A)being the victim in the situation B) knowing the truth and not able to deal, i.e, coping strategies which she very likely does not have. Answer me this? If she does this again and dies what will you be saying then? Can you live with that? This is not about her keeping him away from you. She is too involved in her own pain for that. This is about not knowing how to cope. If she was manipulating him then she would not want to take a chance with her life! She would want to be alive so she could continue to plot ways to keep him from you. If she is no longer alive you win. So this talk about her keeping him from you doesn't even make sense does it? I have had many years experience as a crisis counsellor (including suicides) and I find your attitude a little worrying if you really are a counsellor, as you claim. All suicide threats should be taken seriously, on the off-chance that they're serious. But dealing with them is the business of professionals. It is not for the H, or any other involved party that the BW chooses to drag in, to deal with. If the BW is threatening her life she belongs in a hospital ward under observation, not under the watchful eye of an estranged husband. Nor is it the responsibility of the OW, the CH or anyone else to ensure that THEIR behaviour prevents her from taking her life. They have responsibility for their own lives (and any dependent children, of which there are none in this situation) only, and the only one with responsibility for the BW's life is herself. They cannot be held responsible, and should bear no guilt or blame, if an unstable woman decides to take her own life because of a lack of coping skills o her part. The child, given that he still shares a house with her, should be given power of attorney and should have her committed until such time as she's once again able to make her own rational decisions. Your attempt to guilt trip the OP is most unbecoming for one claiming to be a counsellor. I do hope you don't do that in a counselling situation and that those who give you access to people at risk of, or impacted by, suicide are aware of your rather frightening views on this.
pelicanpreacher Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 I have had many years experience as a crisis counsellor (including suicides) and I find your attitude a little worrying if you really are a counsellor, as you claim. All suicide threats should be taken seriously, on the off-chance that they're serious. But dealing with them is the business of professionals. It is not for the H, or any other involved party that the BW chooses to drag in, to deal with. If the BW is threatening her life she belongs in a hospital ward under observation, not under the watchful eye of an estranged husband. Nor is it the responsibility of the OW, the CH or anyone else to ensure that THEIR behaviour prevents her from taking her life. They have responsibility for their own lives (and any dependent children, of which there are none in this situation) only, and the only one with responsibility for the BW's life is herself. They cannot be held responsible, and should bear no guilt or blame, if an unstable woman decides to take her own life because of a lack of coping skills o her part. The child, given that he still shares a house with her, should be given power of attorney and should have her committed until such time as she's once again able to make her own rational decisions. Your attempt to guilt trip the OP is most unbecoming for one claiming to be a counsellor. I do hope you don't do that in a counselling situation and that those who give you access to people at risk of, or impacted by, suicide are aware of your rather frightening views on this. I would think common sense would mandate that the counsellor instruct all parties directly or indirectly connected to said sucidal person refrain from deliberately provoking further sucide attempts by suspending those activities the sufferer finds traumatizing or completely retracting from the periphery of their patient's consciousness (if possible) until a diagnosis can be determined as to whether the suicidal individual can be successfully treated on an outpatient basis in a timely manner or must be consigned to a sanitarium for a more indepth and extended psychoanalysis' treatment regiment. To completely absolve all parties closely involved with the drama of their behavior's consequences as it impacts upon the fragile mental state of someone contemplating suicide prior to or at the onset of treatment seems counterintuitive to me. JMO.
cjanee Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 I obviously did not say it as well as you Pelicanpreacher. If you are looking at the client in terms of Bio Psycho Social perspective one needs to determine the entire situation or a holistic view which includes the environmental circumstances. Are these circumstances aggravating or preventing outpatient treatment? If so then regardless of Bio (physical condition such as clinical depression), environmental factors like living situation,relationship dynamics must be factored into the case or the patients condition can deteriorate. Do the parties have a responsibility in doing what is best for the client? That is up to the parties involved. As a counselor it would be my duty to advise what was best for the client even if you as the party involved didn't like what you hear.
NoIDidn't Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 cjanee, owoman and pelican PLEASE speak in English. Bio Fio Syo?? LOL. I have no idea what you are talking about. Especially cjanee since she didn't quote anyone or address a poster by name as to whom her post pertains. Just for me. I am lost.
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