How do I bring this up?

July 8, 2008

I've been dating my boyfriend for 6 months. In just over 2 weeks, I'm moving across the country to his city. We've been long-distance this whole time, with visits every month for around one week each time.

He's charming, communicative, hot, fun, intelligent, athletic, and accomplished. I feel this relationship has a lot of promise AND I'm still in the process of judging his character. I know what I want in a relationship and I'm not yet fully convinced that he has what I'm looking for in terms of values, etc.

We were not together for 4th of July weekend. He went to visit some friends, a middle-aged married couple, in a resort town. On the evening of the 4th they went to a party where there were a lot of luminaries from the classical music world, as there is a major music festival going on in this town right now. He spent most of the evening with a young woman musician, watching the fireworks, chatting it up. He told me this when we talked on the phone on Sunday and recounted our weekend exploits.

I was delighted. I used to attend this festival when I pursued a classical music career when I was younger and I know of the musician with whom he was speaking. I was delighted that he forged a connection with a part of my past (music) that I care a lot about and that shaped my identity, and I felt proud that my boyfriend had such good luck and good taste to put himself in the company of such a talented, engaging artist. I vocalized my excitement to him.

But then he also said, "[My friends] tell me I shouldn't tell you this, but I think she was flirting with me." He had decided to stick around town longer on Sunday so that he could hear this woman in concert. He said he hoped to "further the friendship" with her.

What bothers me is that he took a perfectly fine instance of his affability and charm putting him in the company of interesting people and turned it into something--in his comment about her supposedly flirting with him and it being such a deal that he told his friends about their exchange and they supposedly said he shouldn't tell me--not cool. I felt disrespected and confused; I mean, why did he frame it that way? Why not tell me about this wonderful exchange as he'd know I'd be very excited--this woman plays my instrument and I'm always listening to up-and-coming classical musicians?

I feel really bothered by it because he's always telling me about some flirtation, or telling me how many women want to date him, and it makes me uneasy, like he is more interested in exploits than having a committed relationship. Even though in the same breath he tells me he's tired of being alone and wants to settle down. It makes me doubt him, my faith in the potential of this relationship, everything. And so I feel I should tell him how this stuff really bothers me--particularly the bit about the friends advising he keep something from me. I mean, it mjakes me wonder what else went on on the 4th that he didn't tell me? This artist lives in Germany and travels internationally giving concerts so I don't worry about their forming a liaison or even any kind of correspondence. I'm more bothered by how he framed this.

So how do I tell him? I'm afraid he'll accuse me of being jealous when that's not where I'm coming from at all. I WANT a partner who is charming and desirable. It's just that something about how he chose to tell me about his interchnage with this woman made me very uneasy and I feel afraid that if I don't communicate this to him, the next time he talks about some flirtation or how all these women want him I'm going to add up all his red flags and drop this relationship as too much of a risk. It REALLY bothers me.

July 8, 2008

I don't recall you mentioning how his past relationships ended. Do you know?

July 8, 2008

I only know how some of them ended. One recent one he ended because he felt they couldn't make each other happy long term. Another recent one she left after 8 months with the words, "I love you but am not in love with you." His longest relationship of 3 years ended because, in his words, "I couldn't commit to her." A few months ago I point-blank ask him if he'd ever cheated on any of his girlfriends and he said no, but that one time when he and his girlfriend decided to take a break he slept with someone else during their hiatus.

I don't worry about him cheating that much. It's more that I feel there was something disrespectful in the whole way he framed this interaction with this woman. I highly doubt, for instance, that he brought me up in conversation with her, as in, "My girlfriend trained as a violinist and attended this festival." There was just something missing in how he framed this and it's hard for me to define in a clear way, without just sounding possessive and jealous, what it is that bothered me.

July 8, 2008

But then he also said, "[My friends] tell me I shouldn't tell you this, but I think she was flirting with me." He had decided to stick around town longer on Sunday so that he could hear this woman in concert. He said he hoped to "further the friendship" with her. .

This just looks like a big red flag to me. Why does he want to further a friendship with a young woman who flirted with him? Why do his friends want him to keep the flirting from you? Is it just to protect him? If so, then his friends are no friends of yours.

What is so great about this guy? Many men who are attractive and charming and charismatic will cheat on you because they have many opportunities. Unless your in an open relationship, I don't think this is what you want. Considering this incident and his past history with relationships, I would step back and try to figure out if you can/want to deal with these flaws of his.

July 8, 2008

Maybe he keeps talking about other women flirting with him to make you think more highly of him? It sounds like it might be insecurity to me.

July 8, 2008

Are you comfortable with a man who flirts a lot and encourages female attention?

July 8, 2008

Hi TBF. Well...I'm a woman who flirts a lot--or rather, I'm very extroverted, affable, and curious about other people and some men certainly take these attentions as "flirting." I'm approached all the time by men and I am always friendly and conversational. I don't necessarily experience myself as being "flirtatious" in those moments, but male and female friends of mine have said that men could read more into my outgoingness.

My boyfriend also is very affable, charming, extroverted. That's something that drew me to him. Not to mention that he looks like he's in his mid-to-late 30s when in fact he's in his late 40s, so women nearer his age LOVE him. I wouldn't want him to be less good-looking or less affable.

But: I want to see evidence that he considers a relationship with me to be precious. He's admitted that throughout his life he always went about relationships with the idea that "love would always be around the next corner," and he said he realized in recent years that no, love is NOT a guarantee. But I have only his words coupled with the fact that for 49 years of his life he wasn't able to marshal all his charms and other wonderful personal and physical attributes to keep a woman and build a life with her. He says he's ready to do this with me....

I believe that people--especially people who take time to examine and develop themselves, as he does--can change if they want to. He doesn't want to be alone; he wants a committed relationship; and I believe him. But as I said to him on our first date: "I shouldn't be getting a date with you. I should be hearing all about your wife and kids and thinking how lucky they are to have you as husband and dad. You're good-looking, successful, charming...so why have you never married, hmmm?" His answer was that he was "an idiot" who forclosed on relationships that could have been long-term. He said he was so hurt by his borderline mother as a child that he approached relationships feeling he'd be damned if he was going to make himself vulnerable to that kind of hurt again.

Sorry for the ramble, TBF; I'm just thinking aloud in response to your question. I guess I can handle the flirtatiousness as long as I know he truly values all the things I, and a committed relationship, can bring him. In my mind, evidence he truly values these things would be that he'd have told me about his conversation with this violinist, and connected his interaction with her to MY connection to music, thus making a gesture of closeness with ME. I have engaging conversations with interesting men all the time. It doesn't bother me that he does with women. But when he couches it like he did, it makes me feel confused.

Did I answer your question?

July 8, 2008

Maybe he keeps talking about other women flirting with him to make you think more highly of him? It sounds like it might be insecurity to me.

I thought maybe that was it. At the end of our phone conversation, he asked me, "Do you still love me?" I was still reeling in confusion at his comments regarding his interaction with this woman, and I'd fallen kind-of silent in our conversation because of it. A friend of mine feels it's insecurity in that he feels I'm not 100% with him yet plus the fact that I told him I have some reservations about him.

If it's insecurity that made him couch his interaction with this woman in the way he did, that's unfortunate, as the only effect it has is to push me away.

July 8, 2008

Greencove with all due respect, I think maybe you're making a mountain out of a molehill. To judge just from what you've told us here, I think your boyfriend probably said what he said the way he did because 1. Men sometimes like their SOs to know they're still desireable 2. he mentioned to his friends he thought she was flirting, or they mentioned it, and he decided to tell you about this conversation 3. he honestly didn't think he was disrespecting you in any way to tell you this.

The girl could have been flirting with him, and maybe he would have felt weird NOT to tell you. I certainly think it was thoughtful of him to let you know, so that he wouldn't be keeping something from you that you might care about.

So what if a girl was flirting with him? You can't control other people's actions and you can't control your SOs. It sounds like he hasn't done anything or given you any reason to think he's cheated, so you don't have any reason not to trust him. I think if he was planning on cheating with this woman he wouldn't have said anything and definitely wouldn't have said he was planning on seeing her again.

July 8, 2008

GC, consider how you feel right now about his passing comment. What could he possibly say and do to make you feel secure enough? In order to approach him about it, you have to know what you need and not just in vague terms. Otherwise, he's got a moving bar he'll never be able to meet and you'll always be slightly resentful/feeling insecure that he can't.

July 8, 2008

Greencove with all due respect, I think maybe you're making a mountain out of a molehill. To judge just from what you've told us here, I think your boyfriend probably said what he said the way he did because 1. Men sometimes like their SOs to know they're still desireable 2. he mentioned to his friends he thought she was flirting, or they mentioned it, and he decided to tell you about this conversation 3. he honestly didn't think he was disrespecting you in any way to tell you this.

The girl could have been flirting with him, and maybe he would have felt weird NOT to tell you. I certainly think it was thoughtful of him to let you know, so that he wouldn't be keeping something from you that you might care about.

So what if a girl was flirting with him? You can't control other people's actions and you can't control your SOs. It sounds like he hasn't done anything or given you any reason to think he's cheated, so you don't have any reason not to trust him. I think if he was planning on cheating with this woman he wouldn't have said anything and definitely wouldn't have said he was planning on seeing her again.

SSU, you're absolutely right. Just to emphasize, though: I don't care that she was / may have been flirting with him. Given how charming he is, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that she found him great fun. I feel PROUD of him for that. It's not the facts that bother me; it's how he couched the facts: why did his friends feel it was such a big deal that he shouldn't tell me? Consequently, what is he NOT telling me?

I have good instincts about people and there's something here that just made me very uncomfortable and I'm trying to discern what, exactly. I'm not jealous; I don't think that's the issue; rather, I feel like I'm getting a window into how he construes relationships and the opposite sex and I'm trying to understand what I'm seeing. This isn't an isolated incident.

July 8, 2008

GC,

I see his need to constantly flirt and seek validation re his desirability to the opposite sex as a huge neon warning sign. Add the fact that he has never been able to sustain a long term relationship to the mix and I think that you have a recipe for disaster. This is not the stuff that solid relationships are made of. Whether he does this out of insecurity or not is inconsequential as it will still undermine your relationship and create many problems. Consider if this is something that you can live with or not. From the little I know about you through your posts, you are a very sensitive girl with deep emotions and a profound capacity to give. This makes me think that being with a man with a roving eye might cause you pain in the long run. I hope I am wrong for your sake as you seem to be quite smitten by him.

You have only known this man for six months and long-distance at that. I would take things very slowly before investing more into this relationship.

Marlena

July 8, 2008

GC, consider how you feel right now about his passing comment. What could he possibly say and do to make you feel secure enough? In order to approach him about it, you have to know what you need and not just in vague terms. Otherwise, he's got a moving bar he'll never be able to meet and you'll always be slightly resentful/feeling insecure that he can't.

Thanks TBF. That's why I posted here--I want to be very concrete if I say something about it. But I hesitate saying something because I don't know what I'm asking him to change, exactly. Basically, I guess it all concerns my discomfort that at 49 he's not had a relationship last beyond 3 years. I feel like things like this past weekend (again, not the EVENT itself but how he FRAMED it to me) are a window into WHY he's 49 and has the relational past he has. With him, there's always some comment about how he used to spend his weekends out "chasing women," or prior sexual exploits, and his admission that he didn't really respect the women he was with in the past, etc. I feel like what I'm hearing in all this is the true expression of his character and it's not looking good. I don't doubt that he is a "good" man and I really don't get the vibe that he'd ever cheat on me, per se...but I feel that worse he simply just doesn't have the kind of orientation to relationships with women that lends itself to committment, marriage, family, intimacy, etc.

I feel like I want to talk with him about this because bit by bit, every time he tells me something like he did this weekend, I find myself distancing myself from him, deep down. I don't respect men who go around chasing women and turn every interaction into some kind of conquest when to me (and putting myself into this young woman violinist's shoes) it sounds like it was just a nice conversation.

Again, thinking aloud in response to your question. This is helping me; I need to get my head on straight about this so I can decide upon the best course of action.

July 8, 2008

GC,

I see his need to constantly flirt and seek validation re his desirability to the opposite sex as a huge neon warning sign. Add the fact that he has never been able to sustain a long term relationship to the mix and I think that you have a recipe for disaster. This is not the stuff that solid relationships are made of. Whether he does this out of insecurity or not is inconsequential as it will still undermine your relationship and create many problems. Consider if this is something that you can live with or not. From the little I know about you through your posts, you are a very sensitive girl with deep emotions and a profound capacity to give. This makes me think that being with a man with a roving eye might cause you pain in the long run. I hope I am wrong for your sake as you seem to be quite smitten by him.

You have only known this man for six months and long-distance at that. I would take things very slowly before investing more into this relationship.

Marlena

Thanks, Marlena. For better or worse, the next step of my life involves my investing more into this relationship as I'm going to be living with him in just over two weeks. AFter much ambivalence I made the decision to move in with him, with the caveat that I'm still in the process of judging his character and it will become pretty evident fairly quickly whether we're right for each other and if not, I'll still land on my feet and enjoy being in his city.

I think I hit the nail on the head in saying to TBF that I don't respect people--men or women--who treat relationships lightly and view them as exploits, or fun diversions, rather than adventures into self-development, mutual trust and respect, vulnerability, and faith (in self, other, love). He's talking two languages to me: one is the "I want a committed relationship; I want a life partner" language, which he speaks with great sincerity and often with tears in his eyes; and the other is the "There's always a next woman around the corner; isn't this fun" language which he speaks with great authority since it's this language that spells out his history up to this point.

So the question is, what do I do with this contradiction? I keep trying to just be patient, and just listen, and gradually a full sense of his character will emerge and I'll be able to make a decision I'm comfortable with in relation to him. I just feel like I should somehow bring him into this decision-making process by telling him how his "My friends told me I shouldn't tell you this" and other kinds of comments make me feel, and make me view him and his character. I just don't know how to do it. I don't know, because what will I be asking for, exactly?

I don't want to be making a big deal out of nothing...but I also feel like if it were nothing then I wouldn't keep feeling this vague discomfort.

July 8, 2008

GC,

I see his need to constantly flirt and seek validation re his desirability to the opposite sex as a huge neon warning sign. Add the fact that he has never been able to sustain a long term relationship to the mix and I think that you have a recipe for disaster. This is not the stuff that solid relationships are made of.

Am I missing something? I thought this was one occurrence, did the OP mention her SO "constantly" flirting and seeking validation from other women?

Is a long term relationship something longer than 8 months?

Usually, unless there is some HUGE misdeed, I think someone's past should be taken with a grain of salt. The person was younger, after all, and who they were in the past is not necessarily who they are now. Before my husband, I had many short (some VERY short) relationships. I just knew before long if the person I was with wasn't right. you could call it a shortcoming, but when my husband came along I knew I would spend my life with him.

July 8, 2008

With him, there's always some comment about how he used to spend his weekends out "chasing women," or prior sexual exploits, and his admission that he didn't really respect the women he was with in the past, etc. I feel like what I'm hearing in all this is the true expression of his character and it's not looking good. I don't doubt that he is a "good" man and I really don't get the vibe that he'd ever cheat on me, per se...but I feel that worse he simply just doesn't have the kind of orientation to relationships with women that lends itself to committment, marriage, family, intimacy, etc.

I feel like I want to talk with him about this because bit by bit, every time he tells me something like he did this weekend, I find myself distancing myself from him, deep down. I don't respect men who go around chasing women and turn every interaction into some kind of conquest when to me (and putting myself into this young woman violinist's shoes) it sounds like it was just a nice conversation.

Again, thinking aloud in response to your question. This is helping me; I need to get my head on straight about this so I can decide upon the best course of action.

Many men "chase women" before they find the right one to settle down with. Don't hold that against him!

if you're worried about the way he "framed" the conversation, and wonder what he didn't tell you, it sounds like you indeed have an insecurity about him cheating on you. Were you ever cheated on in the past? To me, the words that he used wouldn't give me any reason to suspect he did anything.

July 8, 2008

Hey SSU. Yes, I did say that he makes comments along the lines of this past weekend all the time. The most recent before this latest one was a couple of weeks ago, we were on the phone and he expressed frustration that I hadn't moved yet. "What are we waiting for?" he asked. He said, "I've been waiting 49 years and I don't want to wait anymore and the summer is halfway gone and I don't have anyone to spend it with and I'm not dating anyone." I expressed frustration directly to him and said, "What are we NOT waiting for? How could this possibly go any faster? What do you mean you're not dating anyone? You're dating ME and I'm moving in with you, moving 2000 miles to be with you." When he saw how annoyed I was he cultivated some patience and we settled on July 25 as my move date. So I feel better about it all, but I don't like the constant pushing and rushing and then his anxiety that he's not dating anyone, as though it's nothing that this woman has told him she loves him and is putting action behind the words by agreeing to move 2000 miles to live in his house with him.

It's things like this coupled with his relational past that makes me wonder about his receptors for long-term committment.

July 8, 2008

one is the "I want a committed relationship; I want a life partner" language, which he speaks with great sincerity and often with tears in his eyes; and the other is the "There's always a next woman around the corner; isn't this fun" language which he speaks with great authority since it's this language that spells out his history up to this point.

This kind of double language is confusing and deliberately misleading. At his age, I feel he should have already crystallized his needs and wants and should be mature enough to speak openly and honestly about them. These kind of mind games do not suit a man his age. To me, this double language smacks of irresponsibility and a lack of maturity.

You could tell him that this type of talk and his constant allusions to other women bother you but remember that people do not change because you ask them to. Change comes from within.

but I also feel like if it were nothing then I wouldn't keep feeling this vague discomfort.

This is your inner voice, your intuition, your sixth sense or gut feeling speaking to you. At least, keep an open ear to what it has to say to you.

Since you have already decided to move in with him,then, all I can do is wish you the best of luck. Truly I hope I have been more skeptical than necessary. I would like to see you happy as I know how much you suffered from your last break-up. Like you said, living closely by his side should clear things up for you. Give it your all but at the same time guard your heart.

Marlena

July 8, 2008

Many men "chase women" before they find the right one to settle down with. Don't hold that against him!

if you're worried about the way he "framed" the conversation, and wonder what he didn't tell you, it sounds like you indeed have an insecurity about him cheating on you. Were you ever cheated on in the past? To me, the words that he used wouldn't give me any reason to suspect he did anything.

True that to all you say. No, I've never been cheated on. That was one great thing about my previous long-term (5 years) relationship: I had complete trust in my ex. Neither of us would have EVER cheated on each other.

What I guess I don't get is, if the whole interchange with this woman was so innocuous, then why did his friends say not to tell me? Here's what I'd consider a "normal," non-red-flag-raising, recounting of his 4th of July:

"We went to this party and unbeknownst to me it was chock full of famous musicians. I spent most of the evening talking with ____ ______ and we had the most interesting conversation about [insert details of conversation here]. I told her I had a girlfriend who was a violinist when she was younger and who also has pianist parents. I wish you were here because you would have loved this party and you and ___ _____ could have spoken German with one another."

Instead, he gave me no details of their conversation other than to say she was flirting with him and his friends told him he shouldn't mention any of it to me. I just feel like if this didn't tell me something--about what happened that evening, about his character, about what's going on in his mind regarding our relationship, SOMETHING--then I wouldn't be the least bit bothered.

And I don't judge him for his past but when he makes comments like the above I do wonder just how much he's changed from this person who likes to "chase women." I don't think it's unfair or unreasonable for me to keep in my awareness that he's 49 and never married and never had a relationship last beyond 3 years.

July 8, 2008

GC,

IMO, another thing that should make you a bit weary is his asking you to move in with him so early on in a long-distance relationship.

If you don´t mind my asking, did you meet this man on an Internet dating site?

July 8, 2008

GC,

IMO, another thing that should make you a bit weary is his asking you to move in with him so early on in a long-distance relationship.

If you don´t mind my asking, did you meet this man on an Internet dating site?

Noooo. I met him at an academic conference in New York City, where I live.

The moving in thing I'm comfortable with. It's the other stuff I'm not liking. I'm ready to take this risk to move in with him. I DON'T like that he wasn't just excited and appreciative at this point and went into this whole thing about "not dating anyone." But I got over that after feeling uncomfortable and annoyed for a few days. I got over it, until THIS most recent thing happened. Now it's like plaque in the arteries--I'm afraid if there's more plaque, there's going to be a "blockage," i.e., a point where I snap.

July 8, 2008

I think you can do better than him, to be honest. You sound WAY out of his league, in ALL ways.

Hey Sublime. Thank you. Could you tell me what makes you think that? He's super-smart, very attractive, multi-talented, fascinating, emotional, communicative and articulate. Which is why this other facet of his personality keeps giving me a jolt.

July 8, 2008

So does anyone think I should tell him that I'm bothered? What do I do with these feelings I'm having?

Would it be productive if I just said, "Look, I want you to understand that I LOVE that you are so charming and I EXPECT that women will find you engaging. I don't ever want that to change. But what DOES bother me is that your friends saw something in your interaction with this woman that would make them advise you not to tell me. Not only does it not make me feel good that you were possibly interacting with this woman in such a way as to elicit that response from your friends, it bothers me that your friends seem to think it's just fine to engage in such an interaction and say nothing to me. It makes me feel like I don't matter at all, and that hurts. Also, these things you tell me, rather than make me jealous or admirre you more, really make me distance myself from you emotionally."

I don't want a tone set in this relationship that I don't stand up for myself when I feel disrespected. But I also don't want to set a tone where everything is made into an issue. Still, I can't ignore that I'm feeling uncomfortable.

July 8, 2008

Just to clarify from my latest post (trying to pinpoint what is really bugging me, something concrete to tell him if that's the right thing to do):

What gave me the creeps about his interaction with this young musician (she's 25) is not the interaction itself or even that she flirted with him (and that could be HIS take on the situation; she could just be enjoying his company the way I do when I'm at parties and people say I'm "flirting")...but that his friend of 12 years and he were CONSPIRATORIAL about the whole thing. "Don't tell GreenCove." THAT alone elevated the whole scenario to something that shouldn't have happened.

And Marlena, I agree with you: this kind of thing shouldn't be going on with someone at age 49. It's immature at any age, but to have this now? I DON'T LIKE IT. I really fear that one or two more instances of this and I'll be done.

July 8, 2008

Hey GC,

I'm not that familiar with your past posts, but you come across as a VERY smart, self possessed, NON INSECURE person on this thread.

I think you are right to " listen' to your gut, while also keeping an open mind and communicating clearly.

i wouldn't worry about his friends: they were probably projecting how THEIR wives or Gf's might respond to the flirting.

Not to advise you to be harsh to him, but IME, pointing out to my men, that talking about other woman like that comes across as very insecure, is sometimes enough to shame them into showing some class !

good luck GC !

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