The "was it my fault" thread

[sunshinegirl]

I am seeing a counselor to sort out the reasons why I keep picking unavailable, narcissistic men. We're making progress - lots of stuff having to do with my family and relationship with my parents.

 

In today's session we talked about how I got used to a pattern of "self-deprivation" in the family. I'm the youngest child and got (and get) less attention than my siblings. Which didn't seem like a big deal - I know I'm loved and I was content to just 'go along' with whatever was happening. I rarely spoke up for what I wanted if it was different from everyone else, and I almost never demand attention or center stage. If others in the family were happy, so was I. Or so it seemed. I have been described as very low maintenance, very laid back, not at all demanding, very easy to get along with. No one's ever called me a 'bitch'.... by the same token, no one's ever called me a doormat.

 

But I totally re-enact this 'self-deprivation' pattern in romantic relationships: my partner's needs somehow become more important than my own and I wind up not even really speaking up for what I want and need. Doormat?

 

I can see I was doing this with Eric from the earliest days of our relationship. He was a crappy communicator from the get-go, but I didn't put my foot down. He hadn't filed for divorce yet but I didn't put my foot down. He didn't want to use condoms and I went on the pill (even though I'd spent a lot of time before we met thinking that I don't want to mess with my body's hormone levels by going on the pill)...and I didn't put my foot down. You get the idea. In other matters I had no problem airing my opinions and views, but when it came to sticking up for my own needs, I folded almost every time.

 

So now I am cycling back into self-blame: was the demise of our relationship my fault because I didn't stand up for myself? Did I lose his respect and therefore cause him to think it was okay to cheat? Would he have shaped up if I had said "get with the program and learn how to communicate, chump!"? He seemed to respect me...though he was also sending me signals NOT to ask for much, or expect much, from him. And, in fact, I gave a lot more than I received from him.

 

So then I think no amount of drawing better boundaries would have gotten him to be a more empathetic human being, a more caring and less self-centered person, someone who values other people and is willing to share himself with others. So perhaps I have just learned some valuable lessons about myself in the context of a relationship that could never have worked, no matter what?

 

I'm kind of rambling... I think I'm really afraid of us not working being my fault...that if I had behaved differently, he would have been all the things I wanted.

 

Still wrapping my head around all this.

 

ETA: This still sounds like a 'fix-it' mentality. "If I had been more this, less that, he would have changed..."

[kizik]

was the demise of our relationship my fault because I didn't stand up for myself?

 

I think about this all the time. I certainly should have asserted my needs, and it's possible that the R ended, among other reasons, b/c I was such a doormat.

 

However, I've learned my lesson for next time. It's a mistake I won't repeat. Beating ourselves up is counterproductive. Don't dwell about this too much, SSG.

[v33]

I wonder too what I did wrong. I can easily blame her alcoholism, depressing, attention whoring and sexual and mental issues, but I could have done things differently, if not better.

 

For starters I could have ended it long ago, I could have insisted she get help, I could have not withdrawn and fought harder to help her see the light.... but in the end it was not up to me to save her, even though I realize now that is what I had set out to do when I chose her. Easy to pick someone so messed up that you can ignore your own faults for a few years, not as easy to realize that at the time that is what you are doing.

 

But it's all good, she wasn't ready for a real relationship, and likely won't be for many years without serious therapy and I can see now that I wasn't ready either. I was too needy, too co-dependent. A lot has changed since then and I am much happier for it.

 

Don't blame yourself, just be honest about what YOU were thinking and feeling at the time. All you can do is try to learn from your mistakes.

[kizik]

A good question to ask yourself:

 

would I have been in the position of doormat, if someone didn't see fit to walk all over me in the first place? Meaning that their bad behavior preceded our allowing it to occur. People who "test" you to see what you will or will not take are usually not who we should be with, anyway.

[sunshinegirl]

A good question to ask yourself:

 

would I have been in the position of doormat, if someone didn't see fit to walk all over me in the first place? Meaning that their bad behavior preceded our allowing it to occur. People who "test" you to see what you will or will not take are usually not who we should be with, anyway.

 

I'm not sure there was deliberate doormatting occurring on either side of the table - in our case, I think the drivers were subconscious. I am pretty sure he gave me as much as he was capable of giving (which, in retrospect, wasn't a whole lot). My part in it was sympathizing with his inability to communicate instead of seeing it as a big flag that I should have walked away from.

 

Which preceded which? I don't know. Our subconscious patterns were probably magnets for each other.

 

BUT I will not do it again - ignore the flags, and not stand up for myself and my needs.

[Zapbasket]

Hey SSG. I think it's true that having healthy boundaries borne of a secure sense of self keeps people 'in check' in relation to us. I think that we all unconsciously take advantage of one another's vulnerabilities to some extent, as a way of giving our own vulnerabilities a foothold. But even so, setting and maintaining healthy boundaries in a relationship can't make a person overcome their own shortcomings and insecurities. There was no boundary-setting you could have done that would have made E. a more communicative partner, or more interested in your feelings and needs.

 

What stronger boundary-setting would have done, I think, is end your relationship sooner. Do you think that there's the rub for you? I feel very sympatico with you in terms of the kinds of emotional issues you describe in this thread, and I know that throughout my life I've twisted myself into a pretzel at times to keep up relationships that really weren't right for me, because to me at the time doing so was far, far better than being alone. This stems all the way back to my emotionally distant mother, my only parent and really, only family--and getting warmth and understanding from her was like trying to milk a stone. To overcome the isolation I felt from her emotional reticence, I'd use my imagination to turn her into a warmer person, and I'd approach her as that person, and set my expectations based on that image of her, rather than face the reality that she'll never be able to give me the nurturing and emotional warmth I yearn for.

 

I did this because otherwise I'd have to face an unbearable aloneness. I've realized that this is what I did with my ex, rather than stand up for myself when he would stonewall me, hang up on me, etc. Because on some level I knew that if I calmly told him that overall his emotional reticence made me feel alone and unloved, and if I was prepared to take action based on that insight, I'd have to leave him because it is not in his nature to be communicative.

 

Reading your post made me wonder whether any of this would resonate with you. Also, I think when you're a very loyal person, as you describe yourself as being (and as you come across), it's VERY hard to acknowledge a limit in someone's capabilities for growth and change. Far 'easier' to blame whatever problems as YOUR shortcoming rather than theirs.

[kizik]

What stronger boundary-setting would have done, I think, is end your relationship sooner. ... I know that throughout my life I've twisted myself into a pretzel at times to keep up relationships that really weren't right for me, because to me at the time doing so was far, far better than being alone.

 

Thank you, GC, for describing me and my passivity so well. If I had spoken up about her rudeness and coldness, she would have dumped me. So I let it drag on for fear of being alone.

[Zapbasket]

Thank you, GC, for describing me and my passivity so well. If I had spoken up about her rudeness and coldness, she would have dumped me. So I let it drag on for fear of being alone.

 

But be careful with that thinking, Kizik--on some level you were indulging your passivity BECAUSE of this assumption, that if you spoke up, she'd dump you. Don't mistake your old assumption for an after-the-fact insight. The insight is, perhaps, that her coldness and rudeness was NOT acceptable to you. The truth is that you DON'T KNOW what would've happened if you'd spoken up. You still don't know, because you let an entire relationship go by without standing up for your needs.

 

One facet of trust in a relationship is trust that if you speak up, your partner will at least hear you and consider your needs. You give that trust, and you also give patience--once your partner knows what you need, it might take a while for him or her to accommodate his/her behavior to your needs. It might also be the case that such accommodation is not possible for whatever reason, and in that case you give more trust and patience as you work together to reach some kind of compromise. In this way, a relationship becomes a crucible of growth for both partners.

 

What you have to ask yourself is, what caused you to lose that all-important trust in your relationship and your partner, so that you came to believe that she'd leave you if you spoke up? Did you start out the relationship with that trust missing? If so, was it HER you didn't trust, or do you tend to feel more generally that people don't care about your feelings? Either way, the answers to these questions will tell you a lot about yourself and the true roots of your passivity. It may also illuminate other areas of your life where you choose to be passive, and then you have to ask yourself, WHY?

[Trialbyfire]

You cannot fix a cheater or feel responsible for their behaviours.

[kizik]

GC,

 

Wow. You pose some amazing questions. Thank you, I will think about these things.

[johan]

If I had spoken up about her rudeness and coldness, she would have dumped me. So I let it drag on for fear of being alone.

 

In my case, I did speak up. I REALLY spoke up several times. Our arguments were very circular, and the whole thing would get me extremely pissed. But like you, I hung in there, because I wasn't really pissed at her. I was upset at how she was acting. I shouldn't have separated the two so forgivingly. And I also would have seen the relationship end much sooner if I had really drawn the line. Not because she would have dumped me, but because I would have left her. The tacit agreement was that I could take what she was offering, or I could move on. And eventually I did. Not without regret and some second thoughts though. And I've been on my own ever since. Not really happily, but at least functional.

 

In your case, SSG, I think it was pretty much just like what I describe. If you had really drawn the line, it would have meant you leaving. And your faith kept you from doing that. The fact that he proved unworthy is not your fault. The fact that you hung in there is a good trait to have. But it's really only beneficial if things get challenging with the right person. With the wrong person, you just end up regretting it.

 

But how do you ever really know the person into whom you've invested so much is the wrong person until after things have ended? Can you really blame yourself for wanting to think otherwise? I don't think so.

[Zapbasket]

In my case, I did speak up. I REALLY spoke up several times. Our arguments were very circular, and the whole thing would get me extremely pissed. But like you, I hung in there, because I wasn't really pissed at her. I was upset at how she was acting. I shouldn't have separated the two so forgivingly. And I also would have seen the relationship end much sooner if I had really drawn the line. Not because she would have dumped me, but because I would have left her. The tacit agreement was that I could take what she was offering, or I could move on. And eventually I did. Not without regret and some second thoughts though. And I've been on my own ever since. Not really happily, but at least functional.

 

In your case, SSG, I think it was pretty much just like what I describe. If you had really drawn the line, it would have meant you leaving. And your faith kept you from doing that. The fact that he proved unworthy is not your fault. The fact that you hung in there is a good trait to have. But it's really only beneficial if things get challenging with the right person. With the wrong person, you just end up regretting it.

 

But how do you ever really know the person into whom you've invested so much is the wrong person until after things have ended? Can you really blame yourself for wanting to think otherwise? I don't think so.

 

This is awesome. I agree 100%.

 

SSG, yes: the fact that you hung in there IS a WONDERFUL trait. Johan's right that E. just wasn't worthy of this trait...but someone else WILL be worthy. And I don't know because I haven't experienced it yet...but I think you know someone is worthy when you can FEEL the energy and committment they're bringing to the relationship as opposed to experiencing that all-too-familiar feeling of having to make all kinds of excuses for the nagging sense that something is lacking.

[sunshinegirl]

Thank you, very much, to all. It's late so I'm going to bed. I'll reply more tomorrow.

[Lovelybird]

sunshinegirl

 

About setting boundaries, I think that is a learning process. If now let me date my emotional abusive exbf again, if he pulls out those crap again, I would laugh, and plainly leave. Why would I accepted those crap before? I was hunger for love and validation, I rely my happiness merely on a human, I wasn't sure about myself like I do now. If I had known how God loves me, I would not accept how he treated me. but another side I did many wrong things as well

 

maybe you are right. It is a growing process, for ourselves, to grow more mature, and prepare you for the real one.

 

I think doing self checking shows your strength come out, but be careful you don't take it to another extreme, I believe everything happens for a good reason although we cannot see it right now. Accept you are human, he is human, we all make mistakes. try to love yourself unconditionally even you make mistake, if you can do this, then you will forgive him quickly

[White Flower]

Wow, for most of your thread I thought you were describing me, a middle child. Neglect city here. But I also see a little bit of my youngest daughter in you, although she can be really pushy at times in order to get what she wants. It'll be interesting to see what others say here. I hope you overcome your weaknesses. I know I have. Shoulda seen me pull out 'my guns' with my STBeXH today;)

[orangehose]

was the demise of our relationship my fault because I didn't stand up for myself? Did I lose his respect and therefore cause him to think it was okay to cheat?

 

I worked myself up into a tizzy over this as well, after a well-meaning friend told me that guys want girls who 'challenged' them, and my ex lost respect for me because I stopped challenging him. I was like, 'whoa, so this was MY fault?' But really, it's not.

 

I stopped being able to 'challenge' my ex because he had a temper and an immature conflict style. So it became one-sided - he got to criticize me and put me down freely, but I could never express the slightest criticism without him throwing a temper tantrum and me having to revoke whatever I said and calm him down with reassurances. It was a little weird, actually.

 

So yeah, if someone's going to treat you like **** just for being nice and easygoing and trying to do what they want, well, they're a **** person anyway.

 

I know in retrospect, just like you, that I didn't take appropriate heed of a number of 'red flags'. If I had, I wouldn't have even dated the guy past a few months. But I was enamored with his charming qualities, and like you, my capacity to make excuses for crappy behavior is endless. Lesson learned, though.

[FauxVowel]

it was all my fault and now i will live with the pain oh well

[stlnsmile]

This thread is very deep, and I think that all of us who have gone through a break up have gone through the self blame stage, what could I have done, what should I have done, did I do everything that I was supposed to do to make it work, what shouln't I have done. And I think all of those introspections and self realizations are very important. Its part of the healing process. Its part of recovering, and its part of making you into the person you are ment to be in the future. But I will go back to the old phrase one LS'r said so long ago, a relationship is like a house with two pillars, if one pillar collapses, the whole house collapses. It takes two people wanting to hold the house up. It takes two people willing to fix the cracks. It takes two people wanting the same thing, the relationship. So while each of us, in our own ways, did things wrong in our respective relationships, each of us also did many many things right. We can not blame or carry the demise of the relationship solely on our own shoulders, nor can we blame it solely on theirs. I am sure many of us would change so many behaviors that led to the demise of our relationships, and those behaviors I am sure have been fixed by each of us now that we have expirienced loss because of them, on the other side, we have to know that we are not 100% responsible for the downfall either. It is worthy to think about these things, and change because of them, but at the end of the day, the house was broken because one of the pillars was removed, and it does no good to lament for too long over these things. There was no way you could have made that pillar stay:)

[sunshinegirl]

Hey SSG. I think it's true that having healthy boundaries borne of a secure sense of self keeps people 'in check' in relation to us. I think that we all unconsciously take advantage of one another's vulnerabilities to some extent, as a way of giving our own vulnerabilities a foothold. But even so, setting and maintaining healthy boundaries in a relationship can't make a person overcome their own shortcomings and insecurities. There was no boundary-setting you could have done that would have made E. a more communicative partner, or more interested in your feelings and needs.

 

What stronger boundary-setting would have done, I think, is end your relationship sooner. Do you think that there's the rub for you? I feel very sympatico with you in terms of the kinds of emotional issues you describe in this thread, and I know that throughout my life I've twisted myself into a pretzel at times to keep up relationships that really weren't right for me, because to me at the time doing so was far, far better than being alone. This stems all the way back to my emotionally distant mother, my only parent and really, only family--and getting warmth and understanding from her was like trying to milk a stone. To overcome the isolation I felt from her emotional reticence, I'd use my imagination to turn her into a warmer person, and I'd approach her as that person, and set my expectations based on that image of her, rather than face the reality that she'll never be able to give me the nurturing and emotional warmth I yearn for.

 

I did this because otherwise I'd have to face an unbearable aloneness. I've realized that this is what I did with my ex, rather than stand up for myself when he would stonewall me, hang up on me, etc. Because on some level I knew that if I calmly told him that overall his emotional reticence made me feel alone and unloved, and if I was prepared to take action based on that insight, I'd have to leave him because it is not in his nature to be communicative.

 

Reading your post made me wonder whether any of this would resonate with you. Also, I think when you're a very loyal person, as you describe yourself as being (and as you come across), it's VERY hard to acknowledge a limit in someone's capabilities for growth and change. Far 'easier' to blame whatever problems as YOUR shortcoming rather than theirs.

 

GC, thanks so much for this. I suspect (and hope) that you are right, that the only difference, had I drawn better boundaries, would have been an earlier end to our relationship.

 

It's funny, I'd never seen myself as someone who twists herself into a pretzel to keep a relationship... but, well, I definitely wasn't true to myself in this one. I suppressed and justified and tried-to-come-to-terms-with who Eric was, instead of just admitting he wasn't what I want or need.

 

I can't say I've done this exact thing in my past relationships. Never have I ignored, glossed over, or suppressed my needs and concerns to this degree before. But I am in the habit of choosing people that I ultimately can't get close to.

 

I suppose I have the luxury of being able to work on my relationships with my parents and in so doing, hopefully I can break the cycle of who I keep choosing for a romantic partner.

[sunshinegirl]

You cannot fix a cheater or feel responsible for their behaviours.

 

Thank you. I always appreciate your bottom-line, no-nonsense comments. I sometimes feel like the Matt Damon character in Good Will Hunting, that scene where Robin Williams tells him "It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault." Until I fully internalize the truth that it's not my fault he cheated (and I couldn't fix it/him if I tried), I need reminders like this. Thanks again.

[sunshinegirl]

sunshinegirl

 

About setting boundaries, I think that is a learning process. If now let me date my emotional abusive exbf again, if he pulls out those crap again, I would laugh, and plainly leave. Why would I accepted those crap before? I was hunger for love and validation, I rely my happiness merely on a human, I wasn't sure about myself like I do now. If I had known how God loves me, I would not accept how he treated me. but another side I did many wrong things as well

 

maybe you are right. It is a growing process, for ourselves, to grow more mature, and prepare you for the real one.

 

I think doing self checking shows your strength come out, but be careful you don't take it to another extreme, I believe everything happens for a good reason although we cannot see it right now. Accept you are human, he is human, we all make mistakes. try to love yourself unconditionally even you make mistake, if you can do this, then you will forgive him quickly

 

Thanks LB. I find it so strange that I would never knowingly put myself in an abusive situation. But I find it completely 'normal' to accept crumbs of attention. As friends have put it to me, it shouldn't be enough that the guy merely "shows up" for the relationship. I need to start looking for, insisting on, and demanding more - and walking when I don't get it.

[sunshinegirl]

I worked myself up into a tizzy over this as well, after a well-meaning friend told me that guys want girls who 'challenged' them, and my ex lost respect for me because I stopped challenging him.

 

Funny, when I read this last night my first thought was: ah, but I did challenge him, and he loved it! He loved that we could debate any given subject and I would call him on his bull****, that I wasn't afraid to voice my own views, or challenge his. That is one thing I know he appreciated about me. So in things like that, I wasn't a doormat at all! And even in the aftermath, I don't think he would use 'doormat' to describe me. I doubt he could even say why he left me or no longer wanted me. I was a "keeper", remember.

 

But in terms of my emotional needs, I really just accepted whatever he would give me, and I learned not to make any serious communication or feelings-related demands on him. I learned over time that he couldn't deliver on those kinds of demands, so I stopped making them. I stopped trying to engage him in conversations that *I* cared about. Our sex life started to suffer, I realize now because I got so little emotional support outside the bedroom. Anyhow, the emotional and communication needs I have is the area where I feel like I was a doormat.

 

I know in retrospect, just like you, that I didn't take appropriate heed of a number of 'red flags'. If I had, I wouldn't have even dated the guy past a few months. But I was enamored with his charming qualities, and like you, my capacity to make excuses for crappy behavior is endless. Lesson learned, though.

 

Had I heeded the red flags, I wouldn't have gone on more than one date with him. He wasn't even all that charming - our first date was awkward and conversation was stilted. But he was so CUTE and the physical chemistry was off the charts.

[sunshinegirl]

What I'm wishing had happened is that we had had an adult, mature, sit-down conversation about how our relationship was going and where we were/weren't meeting each other's needs. Had we been able to have a real dialogue, it's possible that we might have mutually understood and agreed that we weren't a good fit for each other, and that we should break up but maybe be friends sometime down the line.

 

Why couldn't Eric have ended things in a mature, respectful manner like that, instead of taking the lying, cheating path with NO discussion whatsoever about where his head and heart were at, or what was missing for him?

[Zapbasket]

Why couldn't Eric have ended things in a mature, respectful manner like that, instead of taking the lying, cheating path with NO discussion whatsoever about where his head and heart were at, or what was missing for him?

 

Because if he could have done that, then you wouldn't have had the problems that defined your ultimate incompatibility. Because the ability to have a mature discussion has as its prerequisite the ability to be open to and communicate feelings.

 

I can't say I've done this exact thing in my past relationships. Never have I ignored, glossed over, or suppressed my needs and concerns to this degree before. But I am in the habit of choosing people that I ultimately can't get close to.

 

But with these people you couldn't get close to in the past, pretzeling is exactly what you were doing. Every day with a closed-off person, when you crave intimacy, involves constant pretzeling. Every THOUGHT you have about the relationship, every plan, hope, action, everything, by definition is an act of pretzeling on your part. So you HAVE done just this very thing in ALL your past relationships, all the way back to your family relationships when you were a little child. If you read through your old threads dealing with your relationship before this one, that same tendency is evident.

 

Not being someone who pretzels means being someone who confidently says, "I need communication, mutual disclosure, and intimacy in my relationships" and then acts accordingly. There is no guilt, shame, or fear behind your declaration of this need. And the result is that you send out signals to people that bar non-communicators from close access to you. Non-communicators become a "protein" for which you simply won't offer the "receptors."

[Trialbyfire]

What I'm wishing had happened is that we had had an adult, mature, sit-down conversation about how our relationship was going and where we were/weren't meeting each other's needs. Had we been able to have a real dialogue, it's possible that we might have mutually understood and agreed that we weren't a good fit for each other, and that we should break up but maybe be friends sometime down the line.

 

Why couldn't Eric have ended things in a mature, respectful manner like that, instead of taking the lying, cheating path with NO discussion whatsoever about where his head and heart were at, or what was missing for him?

Coulda', woulda', shoulda' are emotional killers. It didn't happen.

 

Most often cheating is driven by ego, self-esteem, the need for external validation and ultimately selfishness. A selfish person isn't thinking about the relationship or your needs. They're only thinking about their needs.

 

Also, he may have needed a bridge out of your relationship. While he might have appeared to be strong and independent, he wasn't and isn't.