Krytie TV Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 So I have recently found myself in a situation where occasionally, I need to consider the effects of kenneling my dog in a home while I'm around, due to their being other dogs around, not all of whom get along well together or with other dogs in general. The reason this comes up so much is that since I work 72-80 hours a week, when I do decide to go over to my gf's house, I insist on bringing my dog with me. She also wouldn't have it any other way. So, while he's there, I find myself having to decide whether or not to kennel him up (at the home) at various times throughout the day and sometimes overnight. She is willing to let me have final say on the matter, so there's no direct pressure, but I struggle with trying to be fair and do the right thing. I don't believe that my dog should come over and have free reign of the house while others are in their kennels. That just doesn't seem right. I also cringe at the thought of having to kennel him when I'm around because I feel he should be around me as much as possible when I'm not working. I feel stuck between satisfying my selfish wants and trying to keep peace and equilibrium in what is a complicated situation by doing the right thing. Anyone have any advice? Will he grow to hate me? I will add that he was crate-trained as a puppy and small dog, so he's familiar with it and has become accustomed to some crates.
quankanne Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 MST3K! I miss that show! remember the one episode about "sampo"? your dog: Does your friend have a yard that he can scamper around in while y'all visit? If not, and if the dog doesn't get traumatized by the kennel, it might not be so bad to keep him in there during y'alls visits, especially if it's only for a couple of hours at most. I'm sure he'd just be happy to be in the same room as you! If he's a well-behaved baby, though, kenneling might not be necessary, you know? Especially if your friend thinks he's well-behaved in her home.
Geishawhelk Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Well, as a dog behaviourist, I can try to help. I need to know a few things first though, before I can give you my professional considered opinion. What kind of dog do you have? How old is it? Male or female? Since what age have you had it? (The dog's age, not yours!) Do you live alone, or do you share a house with others? How many other dogs are there? What breeds are they? Sexes? To whom do they belong? How old are they? How many other people, (other than you and your GF) are in this house? I'm sorry to be asking seemingly trivial stuff, but it's all actually quite important.....
Author Krytie TV Posted July 7, 2008 Author Posted July 7, 2008 Thank you for the help! I'm a behaviorist as well (human, not dog), so I have always been very black and white in his training. I believe in firmness and stubborn consistency, but this one has me lost. So, your answers: What kind of dog do you have? Lhasa Apso How old is it? 5 years Male or female? Male Since what age have you had it? 8 weeks Do you live alone, or do you share a house with others? Live alone in a 1 bdrm apt. Further, Monday thru Thursday (with sometimes many exceptions) He may spend up to 18 hours/day alone, and when I'm home I'm sleeping (and he lays with me). How many other dogs are there? 10 What breeds are they? OK, here we go. A large majority are Pitbulls or Pitbull mixes. Some of them are rescued fighting dogs, one of which is blind and still has a large amount of dog agression. All of them are wonderful animals in their own right. I will say, just so you know everything, that my dog has a good relationship with 3 of the Pitbulls that he has been socialized with and no "bad" relationships save the dog aggressive ones. The other dog aggressive one is not a pitbull, but a large breed that I am not aware of. This dog she has had since she was a puppy and she's now 16. Sexes? Mostly female To whom do they belong? Well, my gf. She is still trying to adopt out 2 of them (she runs a no-kill sanctuary). The others she is bound to for the rest of their lives due to issues that keep them from being adopted out (health issues/seizures/aggression/paralysis). How old are they? Most are over 10 How many other people, (other than you and your GF) are in this house? None save for occasional visitors. Oh, and she has volunteers that come over to help care for the dogs, but my dog would mostly never be there at those times and is definitely kenneled if so. There... tackle that one!
Author Krytie TV Posted July 7, 2008 Author Posted July 7, 2008 MST3K! I miss that show! remember the one episode about "sampo"? Who could forget Sampo! What is a sampo anyway? As for the yard, the other dogs need to use the yard just as much, usually one at a time, so that option is not a long-term fix. The problem isn't his behavior (he's everybody's bitch), it's the behaviors of some of the other dogs.
Geishawhelk Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 THis is going to take me a day to compile, because there is a big and complex dynamics issue going on. Could I ask you please to bear with me, whilst I reply to you, in detail, and compile a response off-line, then I'll come back and send you the whole shebang in a PM. It's going to be too long to invade the thread with. Is this OK? Alternatively, I can send you an e-mail.... But give me a while to respond to this comprehensively. Thanks.
Author Krytie TV Posted July 8, 2008 Author Posted July 8, 2008 No problem, this was as much a "what should I do in a relationship sense" question as it was a question about how my dog would react if I were to go the kenneling route. Thank you for your time... it's very appreciated.
Trialbyfire Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Holy Dinah! 10 dogs to socialize with? You don't make things easy, do you Krytie!
johan Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 I would think it wouldn't be too hard to get sedatives for them.
Author Krytie TV Posted July 8, 2008 Author Posted July 8, 2008 Holy Dinah! 10 dogs to socialize with? You don't make things easy, do you Krytie! No, I don't do I? But hey, all dogs that would be dead if they weren't there, and that's very indicative of the kind of person this woman is.
Author Krytie TV Posted July 8, 2008 Author Posted July 8, 2008 I would think it wouldn't be too hard to get sedatives for them. Nope, she has tons. They were all drugged up on the 4th because they freak out about fireworks. As a lifestyle, not such a great idea. Though I personally have considered it many times in my life.
Trialbyfire Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 No, I don't do I? But hey, all dogs that would be dead if they weren't there, and that's very indicative of the kind of person this woman is. It's a good indication of the type of person she is. 'Grats.
Geishawhelk Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Nope, she has tons. They were all drugged up on the 4th because they freak out about fireworks. As a lifestyle, not such a great idea. Though I personally have considered it many times in my life. Ah, ggod. They don't need drugging. they need conditioning... Firt year I had my dog bonfire night here (5th of november) was an absolute nightmare for all concerned. Now...? Skippity-do-dah!
Author Krytie TV Posted July 8, 2008 Author Posted July 8, 2008 Ah, ggod. They don't need drugging. they need conditioning... Considering how long she's had them, I'm not one to argue with her.
Geishawhelk Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Booooy, this is going to be a long one! You might like to copy, cut and paste into a word.doc for reference.....! Thank you for the help! I'm a behaviorist as well (human, not dog), so I have always been very black and white in his training. I believe in firmness and stubborn consistency, but this one has me lost. Well, two things: Firstly, I'm always saying that when I visit a home to discuss Canine behaviour, it's not the dog, it's the people.... That said, I don't know how much people behaviour differs from dog behaviour in the sense of response and attitude, so I'll just go with what I can tell you, and see what you think. What kind of dog do you have? Lhasa Apso How old is it? 5 years Male or female? Male Since what age have you had it? 8 weeks I would presume he is spayed.... We've got a distinct 'game' going on here, the dynamics of which are hard to categorise. THis is going to jump around a bit, so bear with me.... You have a dog which essentially is your companion, and is obviously close to you. The dogs your GF has are very obviously loved and cared for, but this is where the confusion in mind-set sets in..... Are they pets, or are they a business venture? And that's a hypothetical question, because unless you are clear in your minds as to what they are, (and which dogs are which) confusion is bound to reign. I would guess the dogs with inherent problems are the pets, while those that are healthy and re-homeable are the business side, if you like. Even though I am 100% convinced your GF has great affection for all of them. Or else, let's face it, she wouldn't be doing this. She's obviously a stirringly compassionate and caring person. So let's please get that I have absolutely no doubts at all, about that. It stands to reason that I have no idea what kind of a relationship your GF has with the dogs, but she has to implement a policy of treating the re-homing dogs a bit differently to those she is keeping. More of this a bit later.... Do you live alone, or do you share a house with others? Live alone in a 1 bdrm apt. Further, Monday thru Thursday (with sometimes many exceptions) He may spend up to 18 hours/day alone, and when I'm home I'm sleeping (and he lays with me). Let me just make a few points here: Whilst dogs can "learn" words, all they're actually doing is becoming accustomed to sounds, and associating a particular sound with a particular activity, Like 'Walk' or 'dinner'. Essentially speaking, they are pack animals that communicate through gesture and visual stimulus. They also have a body clock, which is extremely effective if we set up a routine for them they learn. The 'walk' word is confirmed by picking up their leash, and the dinner is confirmed by the way you look at the dog as you head for the kitchen. Your actions in both cases, accompanied by the trigger word, signal to the dog that a specific activity is about to take place. HOWEVER: Very often, once a dog gets into a routine, they can end up making demands on you. Eventually, they begin to pester you for walks or food, and we, (anything for a quiet life!) follow through and meet their demands. (Please understand, this is all hypothesis, because I know nothing really, other than what you've told me....) The bottom line is: Everything you do with your dog, should be 100% completely totally and SOLELY on YOUR terms. So the essential is to vary meal times, and to vary walk times, and routes. I have a dog, that doesn’t get to eat every day. Maybe once a week, I'll skip feeding her, and I'll vary this from week to week, as to which day I choose, and which meal. Could be breakfast, could be dinner. Now some may think this is cruel, but let me just explain something. You don’t have a dog that has become your pet. Your dog is living with a pack member that gives him mixed messages. Much as we love our animals, we have a general tendency, as human beings, to ‘superimpose’ very humanistic thought processes upon them. Whilst this is both understandable, and frankly, quite natural, it’s the wrong way of going about things, and is unfair on the dog. Why? Because much as we might think this is so, a dog can never, and will never be able to process thoughts, emotions and logic, in the way we do. They can’t. They’re not human. They’re not gifted with the same manner and means of thinking that we are, so it’s an impossible task to ask them, or expect them to think like us, or more importantly, to understand what the heck we’re going on about. Now it something an awful people resist, but it’s important that owners treat their dogs like subordinate members of a pack. I know we love our pets, but our definition of love, and theirs, actually differs wildly. If they could but talk, what they would say is that all they want from you is shelter, play, food and protection. Above all, they crave constancy in leadership. That, to them, is affection. The hugs, cuddles and affection we show, is more for our benefit than theirs. How many other dogs are there? 10 What breeds are they? OK, here we go. A large majority are Pitbulls or Pitbull mixes. Some of them are rescued fighting dogs, one of which is blind and still has a large amount of dog agression. All of them are wonderful animals in their own right. I will say, just so you know everything, that my dog has a good relationship with 3 of the Pitbulls that he has been socialized with and no "bad" relationships save the dog aggressive ones. The other dog aggressive one is not a pitbull, but a large breed that I am not aware of. This dog she has had since she was a puppy and she's now 16. Sexes? Mostly female To whom do they belong? Well, my gf. She is still trying to adopt out 2 of them (she runs a no-kill sanctuary). The others she is bound to for the rest of their lives due to issues that keep them from being adopted out (health issues/seizures/aggression/paralysis). You and your dog, are a pack of two. You GF and her dogs are a pack of however many she’s adopted personally. The others are going to be re-homed, so she needs to distance herself from them, in the sense that they are not part of her pack. She almost has to treat them as a commodity. Boy, that’s going to blow Hell out the water….. How old are they? Most are over 10 How many other people, (other than you and your GF) are in this house? None save for occasional visitors. Oh, and she has volunteers that come over to help care for the dogs, but my dog would mostly never be there at those times and is definitely kennelled if so. The fact that these dogs have a mix of people tending to them, is actually an advantage, because providing everyone displays and demonstrates the same leadership characteristics, they’ll just follow the leader. Whoever it is. Your dog, should be following your lead, so providing you are showing constant, continuous, calm consistent Leadership traits, you should have no problems…. Any questions, before I ramble on….?
Author Krytie TV Posted July 15, 2008 Author Posted July 15, 2008 Any questions, before I ramble on….? Been away for a few days. Just read this. Wow, thanks so much for this. I am actually comforted at how many of the things you talked about are/have been implemented by me and my gf, both together and separately. On the topic of "alpha" and schedule. If there's one thing my dog knows is that there is no schedule. Though it at times has created ambivalence in me, I have been steadfast throughout his life to do things on my terms. When at my place, I leave his food out all day, so that's no issue. But there are times that I will come home and leave again and not walk him even though idealy I would have liked to. I sometimes let him sleep with me and sometimes not, but never before I give him permission (initiate with him) that he may come up. My gf is much the same way with hers. Just yesterday she had mentioned while a few of them were outside that she prefers to stand and walk around them to maintain her "alpha" status. She is also firm and demanding of all of her dogs and does not take crap from any of them. As far as her commitment or "investment" in the animals, it breaks down like this. Three are hers (none pitbulls) and all of these are over 15. She has had them most of her adult life. They stay in the house at all times. There are 6 remaining in the kennels. One was just officially adopted out last weekend and she was very pleased because of the drain he was becoming on her emotionally from his condition. One of these is to be adopted out. As for the other 5, she has accepted that these are "organization" dogs and that she is bound to them for the rest of their lives due to unadoptability. She admits that it can someties be overwhelming and it is a huge barrier to her fulfilling her other aspirations that she is attending to, but would ultimately not have it any other way. That may help you out if you wish to add more. There are also a few developments to report. Each of us have slowly began to impose our wishes on the others' dogs. By watching her I learn her cues and actions and vice versa. She supports and backs up how I handle and command them as do I with her. After a few days of kenneling my dog with the outside 6, I have learned a lot about the process. Though I internalize that I feel guilty, he has shown an affinity for the area. He will sometimes lay just inside the "main" door to the kennel area and is very responsive to the dogs in there. He has at times demonstrated a desire to eat with them in the kennels rather than inside. He is definitely developed some degree of "pack" mentality and behavior with them. I regret that he cannot be assimilated with the other inside dogs because of the animal aggressiveness. But also, conditions are ever changing in the place, as one of "her" dogs has become very ill and it is unclear how long she will maintain and the blind and aggressive pitbull's condition is deteriorating as well. I guess things are basicaly starting to take shape and an amicable situation is forming. We have agreed that my dog will never become an "outside" kennel dog and will maintain more of a status congruent with her inside animals. It's working well thus far. If any of this has brought any more issues, I would love to hear them. Your insight has been both comforting and informative.
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